Where is the Place to Be?

[Beo]

No... inner cities are not going to work, the bad element is going to run amuck in this enviroment, they do it now over drugs, mugging, theft or what have you, surviving in a city would just be pitting gang vs gang and youd have to choose one, even choosing a good group would be pitting yourself against the bad and there it is all over again. In actuality I gather my family and head to an area where we camp (there's a cabin there) on Indian Lake in Northern Ohio, at least 40 miles from any large towns and 5 to 8 from the nearest smal one, easily defensible with the things Chris mentioned, climate is good for long growing seasons and wildlife aplenty. A city is going to be a big free fire zone for the strongest, don't fool yourself into thinking it wouldn't be, I worked the riots in Columbus in 97 for the KKK rally, and the riots here in Cincinnati in 2001 and although it was mostly lower income there were middle class people coming in from all around just to break into stores and take what they wanted, people were pulled from cars and trucks just because of their skin color, stores ended up going outta business from being burned out, our popular main street cafe's and clubs are now closed and business is damn near non exisistant and from a small scale riot... what do you think would happen if there was no order, think of riots around the world, here in the US like Cincy, LA, populated cities like Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, losing control cause your on your own. Remy is fooling himself if he thinks he could weather that storm, if it happens I hope he does what he thinks is best and if he stays in LA... I hope he ends up ruling the city, but best of luck to those that choose cities. But don't fool yourself into thinking most people don't have weapons, there are over one million guns available in Cincinnati alone on the street for thugs, that is a fact from CPD and the Sheriff's Office, so I know in a city like LA there are at least double that if not more, and gang violence is just as bad as ever in major cities, you may not hear about it, but its there... actually GQ magazine has an article in this month about LA Gang violence... read it getting a hair cut. Leaving the city with my family does not mean you have to leave everything and everyone behind, and a group of set skilled people will fair better than a group where one has the most skills, Remy said "And the skills you carry do not weight much, since you will be among individuals that have the same skills as you do" so the fu** what, it's not a popularity contest and all skills will be needed for multi-tasking. So no cities are not better than secluded, what do you think they'll do to you when they find you sneaking, thieving, skulking around the shadows, and taking what you want. It could be that city people would fair better in the city, in the "only the strong survive" situation, I work in the city and live in the country, that's where I'm going if TSHTF.
P.S. Remy... all those morons that are cannon fodder to you in the city, be it LA or elsewhere, may just roll over you thinking you are superior to them.

[Ole WV Coot]

I'm no youngster myself and spent 15yrs working in the fine city of Washington, DC and during the '60s(that's 1960s) during the riots, and they were riots the police were ordered to do ZIP. I was stuck for 3 days while all Hell broke loose. If I told you what I saw you wouldn't believe me, nor what I did to keep my skin in one piece. I was young and dumb or I wouldn't have made it, 10' tall and bullet proof. Anyone who thinks they can live for long depending on breaking into vending machines for food and the fine city I was in with NO legal guns(still no legal carry) best check their options and get out quick. This ain't just my opinion because I was offered $$$ and gratuities by many women and men to get them across the Potomac.

[Beo]

Thank You Ole WV Coot, and my point exactly bro, surviving in any city if TSHTF is going to real tuff and near to impossible. Johnny the good sameritan will probably leave you high and dry.

[Rick]

Guys, Remy didn't say anything about the inner city. LA is a big town. Spread across a lot of acreage. I'm outside Indianapolis and although it isn't anywhere the size of LA I still wouldn't go downtown. Everything you said is true, Beo. But just as Ole Coot said, "across the Potomic" was safety. Anarchy won't necessarily spread across the entire city. But there are areas that you are dead on (I think) about what will occur.

Still, consider the scenario. Most folks will be fleeing from the city. Those that stay might be predator or prey. We saw that very scene unfold in New Orleans and, to some extent, in Houston during Katrina. But there weren't gang armies just pockets of evil that roamed a small territory. Think of them as a wolf pack. That was the analogy that played in my head over and over as I watched the news. I studied that whole thing very closely because it was EXACTLY what happens when TSHTF. I, too, thought the city would sink and the criminal element take it over but that didn't happen. They simply had strongholds and areas they controlled just as they had before the storm. I avoid those areas now. I'd avoid those areas afterwards, as well.

And don't think there won't be ne'er-do-wells out there on the highway ready to shoot your a** and take what they want or need. That's what I meant earlier by being vulnerable while migrating to some place else. If you are uncomfortable when someone walks into your camp, think how uncomfortable you'll be when you have dozens or hundreds of folks around you, on the same highway, trying to migrate to some place else.

I do agree the wilderness offers safety and survival capability. It requires some strong knowledge, skills, and abilities. But there are also unsafe areas in the wilderness that you would not want to be in and try to survive. I think you will agree with that. I just happen to believe all of that is also true of urban survival.

Give it some thought.

[Beo]

Alright I suppose you guys could be right... hmmmmm.... yeah I guess. I do see your point so I guess for me its just the country since I know it and am not far from it.

[Rick]

Exactly! Well put. It is about comfort zones. All I'm suggesting is that you also train yourself to survive in an urban setting. It gives you more choices, more flexibility in being able to survive. What would happen if you can't migrate to that lake? Then what?

[Beo]

Oh I know this city inside and out, patroling it everyday, chasing puke sacks through ally's, the little parks, all of it. I know I could find a good place to stick my kin and try and survive it out, but do I want to. I've done urban training in the military and here in my younger days I was on the Sheriff's SRT for a while, know where the nooks and crannies are in this city, the old unused subway tunnels, all of it. I just wouldn't stay in the city or its outskirts. I'd head for home and stick it in the suburbs if I couldn't get to my lake hide away. And I agree since ya brought up the Katrina thing, would be alot like that on a larger scale from city to city I'm thinking.

[Rick]

I'll bet you know where the gun shops are, too, huh?

[Beo]

Both legal and a few illegal, chop shops too the freestore food bank would be one of the first stores to get plundered. And now I see yours and Remy's point.

[wareagle69]

i have to dissagree with you.
for the times right now if you are trying to hide from the law a big city is perfect lots of ananimity as a former outlaw member of society(organization to remain nameless) i hid out for ten yrs in towns like cleveland akron dallas phoenix, small towns too much talk.
now in a shtf time the city will be a mess best to hide /go where there will be limited contact yet still be able to have resources available, why do you think i left the southwest and moved here, i'm far enough outside of town to not bother the locals and can still get to a big enough city to remain anonymous.

always be prepared..

[Sourdough]

What if you had a trawler, or houseboat, sailboat, or motor-sailor. Wind generator and battery bank. A few fishing nets, some crab pots. Park the sweetie in a cove in south east Alaska, or B.C. and ride out the anarchy........?

[RBB]

Someone said northern Minnesota. Not so sure about that. While there are maples to tap for syrup or sugar, wild rice to harvest for grain, and more deer than there ever was before white contact - there is also an urban area (the Twin Cities) within 100 to 200 miles - and you better believe every one of those urban people thinks they are going to move "up in the woods" to live off the land if there is a big disaster. It will be a big disaster alright!

I happen to know that at one point (possibly still) the emergency plan for a nuclear strike was to have all Twin Cities residents head up to the Iron Range. And feed them how? Better to have them head for North or South Dakota. At least they have grain there.

A good friend's plan, in case of a nuclear strike, is to blow the bridge at Knife River.

[Rick]

Can you picture it? Several hundred deer sitting around eating popcorn and drinking beer while watching everyone try to migrate north? "Ooh," collective deer moan as Johny Butterbutt (Beo's name, which I love by the way) has a massive coronary in his shuffle north. Deer applause as someone strips him of his pack and rifle. One deer hands a second deer two ears of corn. "I told you he wouldn't make it," says the first. "I know, I know," replies the second deer.

Hopeak - You might just have a plan there. Add a stainless steel 30.06 and you're in pretty good shape.

[Sourdough]

Hopeak - You might just have a plan there. Add a stainless steel 30.06 and you're in pretty good shape.[/QUOTE]

Rick, I am workling on the deck gun problem. I am thinking the Ithica "ROAD BLOCKER" a 10 gage slug gun. This would be used to sink Pirate ships that are trying to steal my OREO cookies. The boat thing works for "ButterButts".

[Elkchsr]

That's what I meant earlier by being vulnerable while migrating to some place else

Thats the beauty of any one with a little foresite..

I'm already here...

Great thread...

[Beo]

Great rebuttal Remy, and an A++ on that report and thinking, and vert interesting.
I truly like your points and the different opinions of what is best to do and what others would do. Makes me think on my own plan even more for a SHTF situation. No wonder I love this site Now... Sarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrge!!! where ya at master blaster? Want your thoughts too, and Nell and Owl Girl, Lady Trapper and of course our younger frontiersman Proud American.
Dang now I gotta re-read these and rethink to make sure I'm good.

[Canadian-guerilla]

Most importantly, the big rule here, is stealth. For a "bad element" to exist, he must know i exist...and he won't.

if TSHTF before i make it out to BC
i have two things to do

1 get 5-10 miles outside of the city limits asap
2 decide which preplanned hole/spot i'm gonna hunker down in

but yes,
i agree with remy
i plan to " disappear " for at least a month
and let the chaos play out in the cities

naturally this takes planning
i've scouted 4 locations out in the county
with priorities to water
whether it's an old bath tub in a junk yard
would anyone look for water/shelter in a junk yard ?
or a used 55 gallon drum ( with interior plastic bag )
sitting in a open field in a little stand of brush

[Rick]

This has turned out to be a remarkably good thread. Thanks to everyone for some thought provoking insight and ideas. Like Beo, there are still some I'd like to see add to this thread.

I said early on that I was surprised how many folks wanted to go north. I thought just the opposite would be true, mainly because of climate. It looks like the majority on this site, and I'll bet within the general population, have much the same thing in mind.

I know I can get my family through safely (I'm speaking only of skills here) in the wilderness. I know and practice the basics. Several years ago I had planned to pack up the 4X4 and hit the bricks. Not so anymore. I had to sit down and define my strengths and weaknesses and I determined urban survival skills were really lacking. So I started making plans to educate myself and identify resources to carry me through, beyond what I have in hand, even in a natural disaster.

In business, we call it a SWOT, Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats. But guess what, it works just as well in determining your skill sets. You can do a google and find out how a SWOT works. It's really quite simple.

Once you have built your skills for the wilderness and the urban setting, you have a more well rounded game plan and the option to change your plan if the environment you are in dictates it. If you limit your skills, then you limit your options. Just my humble opinion.

[Canadian-guerilla]

SWOT, Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats. But guess what, it works just as well in determining your skill sets.

never heard of this . . . thanks
i'm one of those " make a list for everything " guys
usually i just went with pros & cons

[wareagle69]

i agree to a point, every one will try to bug out and those who don't will pillage and plunder, so you must remain hidden for a while. i have suggested before if you own your own home is to buil a hidden wall then disguise it as a cold room then behind that if some one should find it is another hidden room that is your safe space..