EMP could cause a nuclear melt-down.......OUCH

[Sourdough]

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/09/...ack_or_se.html

Great one more maybe problem:

[SARKY]

I'm just not buying that. An EMP will fry most electronics including the controls for the nuc. plants, but it is a fail safe system. Thus means that if any control is lost it fails to the safe position which is shutting down or at least slowing down the reactor.

[Sourdough]

I'm just not buying that. An EMP will fry most electronics including the controls for the nuc. plants, but it is a fail safe system. Thus means that if any control is lost it fails to the safe position which is shutting down or at least slowing down the reactor.

SARKY, you must not have read the entire article, what you say is what he said, his point was the the NOT the CORE but the spent rods (that most sites have 10 to 20 years worth of spent rods in cool down pool), also the the redundant systems use external diesel generators, and fuel for them was his issue.

[Rick]

However, in the event of an EMP attack, the grid will come down, and it may not come up for many months, if not years.

Perhaps he should spend some time researching the grid.

[SARKY]

The grid will be down, not because the reactors shut down but because all the transformers will fry. And if I remember correctly, there are only 2 companies that produce transformers at a rate of 2 per year per facility. Think about how many transformers there are in just the US and how long it would take to replace them.

[Sourdough]

The grid will be down, not because the reactors shut down but because all the transformers will fry. And if I remember correctly, there are only 2 companies that produce transformers at a rate of 2 per year per facility. Think about how many transformers there are in just the US and how long it would take to replace them.

Yes, I agree.......However his point is that the power outage lasting more than a week "Could" repeat COULD cause a melt down in the cooling pools where the spent rods are stored, they would heat to over 1,000 degrees, causing a melt down 40 times what a core melt down would cause, and release radioactive gas for up to 50 miles down wind.

[kyratshooter]

They will not fry, they will popoff just like they do in any other power surge. The time needed for restoration will be the time taken to flip them all back on. Same reason we put surge protectors on our computers.

A nuke plant would be the last place affected by EMP. EMP is a form of radiation. The same sheilding that keeps the radiation in keeps it out also. What is inside is much more powerful than what is trying to get in from the outside. Since the nuke power station is shielded and supplying its own power it can not have a power outage.

EMP is the new boogyman of the survival world, and the survival forums are the only place where it is treated as a dominant force. Finding legitimate information from anyone besides an unemployed cable installer living in his mom's basement is almost impossible due to the crap level information flooding the web, most of it based on fiction novels. Someone did a search on the two "top experts" on EMP on another extremely large forum and found neither of them had any formal training in electronics or physics. One was a HS dropout. All of their training was from the internet, where no one knew any more than they did. They were cutting and pasting schematics and formulas and posting 10 page replies that ment nothing.

The real information is generally ignored. The recient National Geographic Special for instance. They showed techs frying circuit boards. But they were applying massive volt surges directly through the wiring, not as emp surge. Even then it was taking surges far beyond what an EMP event would generate.

Same for the cars they were knocking out. It was taking 200,000v to stop the cars and EMP runs in the 50,000v range. Even then the vehicles electronic system reset itself after 10 seconds and would restart. Only 1 out of 10 were affected at all. They are using a device as big as a boxcar, aiming it directly at the vehicle, and filming it with an electronic dvd recorder 15 feet away. Did the camera melt?

[Rick]

Give it up KYRat. I've tried and no one is a believer. They walk in the shadows and curse at the light.

Sarky, my friend, how long do you think a transformer company would be in business if they made 2 a year? Seriously, consider the logistics. There are more transformers chomped up in every lightening storm than all the EMP events we've ever had combined.

(tap)(tap)(tap) Hello forum. Is this thing on?

[kyratshooter]

The lights are on but no one is home.

[AirborneEagles]

A nuclear power plant is as vulnerable as any other electronics. Their generators are also solid state and will not run after an EMP. The cooling process has to be continued circulated cold water, for if the water just sits around the rods the water will boil and turn to steam and then evaporate, thus leaving the rods exposed and then they just keep heating up from there.

A good example of a little melt down is looking back at the several Russian nuclear submarines that had to be swamped because of a simple cooling problem. That was just a simple machine malfunction or damaged during exercises. However, with an EMP... Backup after backup will fail and not work during and after an EMP.

As for the power grids, they can be running off hydro and still will not work. Yes, transformers are vulnerable, but also most homes are not EMP proof and so nobody will have anything to run anyway since their home electronics will all be fried. So what is the use of having any electricity if you can't use it. Your fridge will not work, your microwave will not work, nothing will work that has any electronics in it that is solid state. Now, a 1954 Chevy truck will start and run, but it is not solid state either. Good to have something very old sitting in your drive way so you still have transportation.

Of course some offer a simple solution of grounding your vehicle with a chain to the ground to absorb the EMP and ground it, but that will only take a small amount and if its a large EMP from the sun or Nuke over LA or DC and you are within range of the EMP, forget it. If it is solid state, it will need repairs after to run again.

People can believe what they want, hope for the best in one hand and see what bird puts in the other, but hoping doesn't change anything. It is the facts you have to deal with.

I always say, be prepared for anything. Anything can happen. So if you are prepared for a Nuclear attack, you pretty much covered everything that could happen in that area. Which covers radiation, EMP, clean air, food, clean water, shelter, etc.

[Rick]

If I'm hit with a nuclear bomb I think EMP is the last thing I have to worry about. I don't think Sourdough was concerned with a nuclear strike. (correct me if I'm wrong). The article was geared more to an EMP weapon or mass coronal ejection.

Your assumption that all electronics will go belly up is just wrong. It's wrong from a fundamental physics perspective and wrong from an historical perspective. Google Faraday cage for starters and google Quebec blackout (March '89).

Here's a great industry article on transformer production in the U.S. - It totals in the millions each year.

[Sourdough]

I ain't worried about any of it, as there ain't anything constructive I can do. Now if I lived with-in 50 miles of a nuclear power plant, I would at least sit down with a map and have a exit plan.

[Rick]

That would be a good plan in any case. If you live within 10 miles of a nuclear facility you should be receiving emergency information material annually. Either from the company that owns the power plant or from your state. Beyond that, everyone should have a nuclear plant emergency within their plans regardless of where they live or how remote the event might seem. A disaster that vents a large amount of radioactive steam could be an issue for anyone living downwind.

[TucsonMax]

EMP is the new boogyman of the survival world, and the survival forums are the only place where it is treated as a dominant force. Finding legitimate information from anyone besides an unemployed cable installer living in his mom's basement is almost impossible due to the crap level information flooding the web, most of it based on fiction novels.

The Commission to Assess the Threat to the US from an EMP Attack completed a 200+ page report (PDF), includes: Executive Report and a Critical National Infrastructures Report describing findings and recommendations. The participants are impressive and their findings, quite a read: http://www.empcommission.org/index.php

[aflineman]

The grid will be down, not because the reactors shut down but because all the transformers will fry. And if I remember correctly, there are only 2 companies that produce transformers at a rate of 2 per year per facility. Think about how many transformers there are in just the US and how long it would take to replace them.

I call BS on the 2 per year. We just got 20 custom units built in 6 months (and we are not their only customer). YES they can be long lead (especially if a wide area outage occurs), but they can be made in a fairly short amount of time. (Much shorter than I figured until I got my current job).

As for some of the hypothesis, I can agree. If station power is down for a long period of time, there will be problems.

[Sourdough]

I call BS on the 2 per year. We just got 20 custom units built in 6 months (and we are not their only customer). YES they can be long lead (especially if a wide area outage occurs), but they can be made in a fairly short amount of time. (Much shorter than I figured until I got my current job).

As for some of the hypothesis, I can agree. If station power is down for a long period of time, there will be problems.

I wonder if they can make them, and make them in the dark, and using no electricity.........???

[aflineman]

I wonder if they can make them, and make them in the dark, and using no electricity.........???

I just don't see a manmade EMP being that wide of an event. If it is, we have worse problems than making new transformers.

Now a large scale solar event, yes I can see that. (And my above statement would still apply).

Plus, most would just need a remanufacurer. Those can many times be done onsite with minimal tools (if you want to do it quick and dirty). Repair would not be very efficient or pretty, but can be accomplished so as to facilitate other repairs.

BTW, this is sitting outside my shop at the moment. NOT a transformer, but similar in concept. They will update and refurbish it in place.
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[SARKY]

It would only take 3 possibly 4 emp bombs launched from off the coast (freighter) to blanket the US. If Iran were to go that route, they would probably do more damage to us as an attack on a city would have the damage more contained. Not to mention that our population has become soft, complacient and stupid! Many would not know how to help themselves, others will try and take advantage of the cituation. Remember, almost half our population lives in urban/suburban areas and everything they consume comes from outside these areas. If i were still living in my homestead in Maine, I would probably say "powers out again" and go about my business. After a couple of days I would crank up the generator to run the fridge. and go about my business again. It simply won't be like that in the cities and urban areas.

[kyratshooter]

You guys are detirmined to be terrified of something you can not do a single thing to control, even if it does not exist!

Facts are ignored for the endorphine rush from anticipation, dread, superstition and alarm. This is an addiction!

What do you want to hear?

That you can save your computer from surge for use on a dead internet, hooked to a nationwide cable net that has evaporated?

That you can save your vehicle, for use on roads jamed with dead cars?

That you can wrap yourself in tin foil so your pacemaker will not blow up in your cheast?

That you can still have electricity from your protected generator so you can run your AC while the rest of the world disolves?

That EMP can flow like water, filling any space available, going around corners and searching out the unsuspecting like those thingies from War of the Worlds?

I have news for you guys. You know more people that have died of cancer from standing in front of the microwave while they popped corn than will ever be affected by EMP frying their wires.

Have you considered that if directed EMP was capable of doing 1/4 of what is credited on the internet the military would be using it to fry the wiring in IEDs and F15s would be using it to knock out radar guidence systems.

So far, the only thing that will produce even a modest, usable and dangerous EMP pulse is a nuke. Even then it is of limited range and power and does not effect everything once you ar outside the nuke blast radius. Iran is not going to explode EMP bombs at stragic locations. Not without the accompanying mushroom cloud.

There is no such thing as an EMP bomb in our present technology!

With out present technology you will not get EMP without nuke blast. That puts EMP way down the list of worries.

On the Kenai Pennisula your worries are between none and zero.
In Oakland you are in more danger going to the 7/11 at noon.

[SARKY]

What the heck is your problem? When I talk about an EMP bomb, I AM talking about a nuclear detonation!!!!! It is simply high enough in the atmosphere to do little physical damage. EMP with cover an area from horizon to horizon, so altitude is the deciding factor on how much area is affected by the EMP. In point of FACT, every nuclear bomb IS an EMP bomb. Sticking your head in the sand about a side effect of nuclear detonation that we've known about since the fifties doesn't help either. I guess neutron bombs don't exist either????
Oh, and by the way, the military is experimenting with EMP. The problem is EMP radiates out in a cone from the blast or emitter and so can not be focused like a laser to be used as a surgical weapon.
If it is such a non issue, why are military electronics hardened against EMP?????????