Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Oldest evidence of arrows found

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Southern California, High desert
    Posts
    7,436

    Arrow Oldest evidence of arrows found

    26 August 2010 Last updated at 04:22 ET

    Oldest evidence of arrows found
    By Victoria Gill Science reporter, BBC News
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11086110

    Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
    The stone points are approximately 64,000 years old

    Researchers in South Africa have revealed the earliest direct evidence of human-made arrows.

    The scientists unearthed 64,000 year-old "stone points", which they say were probably arrow heads.

    Closer inspection of the ancient weapons revealed remnants of blood and bone that provided clues about how they were used.

    The team reports its findings in the journal Antiquity.

    The arrow heads were excavated from layers of ancient sediment in Sibudu Cave in South Africa. During the excavation, led by Professor Lyn Wadley from the University of the Witwatersrand, the team dug through layers deposited up to 100,000 years ago.

    Marlize Lombard from the University of Johannesburg, who led the examination of the findings. She described her study as "stone age forensics".

    "We took the [points] directly from the site, in little [plastic] baggies, to the lab," she told BBC News.

    "Then I started the tedious work of analysing them [under the microscope], looking at the distribution patterns of blood and bone residues."

    Because of the shape of these "little geometric pieces", Dr Lombard was able to see exactly where they had been impacted and damaged. This showed that they were very likely to have been the tips of projectiles - rather than sharp points on the end of hand-held spears.

    Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
    Closer inspection revealed remnants of blood (left) and bone fragments (right)

    The arrow heads also contained traces of glue - plant-based resin that the scientists think was used to fasten them on to a wooden shaft.

    "The presence of glue implies that people were able to produce composite tools - tools where different elements produced from different materials are glued together to make a single artefact," said Dr Lombard.

    "This is an indicator of a cognitively demanding behaviour."

    The discovery pushes back the development of "bow and arrow technology" by at least 20,000 years.
    Ancient engineering

    Researchers are interested in early evidence of bows and arrows, as this type of weapons engineering shows the cognitive abilities of humans living at that time.

    Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
    The arrows were excavated from Sibudu Cave in South Africa

    The researchers wrote in their paper: "Hunting with a bow and arrow requires intricate multi-staged planning, material collection and tool preparation and implies a range of innovative social and communication skills."

    Dr Lombard explained that her ultimate aim was to answer the "big question": When did we start to think in the same way that we do now?

    "We can now start being more and more confident that 60-70,000 years ago, in Southern Africa, people were behaving, on a cognitive level, very similarly to us," she told BBC News.


    Professor Chris Stringer from the Natural History Museum in London said the work added to the view that modern humans in Africa 60,000 years ago had begun to hunt in a "new way".

    Neanderthals and other early humans, he explained, were likely to have been "ambush predators", who needed to get close to their prey in order to dispatch them.

    Professor Stringer said: "This work further extends the advanced behaviours inferred for early modern people in Africa."
    Guests can not see images in the messages. Please register in the forum.
    Map of South Africa indicating position of Sibudu Cave
    Last edited by Justin Case; 08-26-2010 at 08:05 PM.


  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Southern California, High desert
    Posts
    7,436

    Default

    So,, Those dont look like very good arrowheads to My untrained eye,, you guys make much nicer ones,, Just Sayin,,,

  3. #3
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    58,832

    Default

    Well, theirs haven't been walked on for 64,000 years either.

    I get the picture of this guy learning to knapp and tossing his culls in a pile that will be found 64,000 years later.

    Dang it, Grog, I'm gonna show you one more time. Hey! Pay attention and stop looking at my daughter!!
    Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Southern California, High desert
    Posts
    7,436

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Well, theirs haven't been walked on for 64,000 years either.

    I get the picture of this guy learning to knapp and tossing his culls in a pile that will be found 64,000 years later.

    Dang it, Grog, I'm gonna show you one more time. Hey! Pay attention and stop looking at my daughter!!
    except for the presence of blood and bone,, those must have been used or "Grog" cut himself

  5. #5
    2%er Erratus Animus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    376
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Well, theirs haven't been walked on for 64,000 years either.

    I get the picture of this guy learning to knapp and tossing his culls in a pile that will be found 64,000 years later.

    Dang it, Grog, I'm gonna show you one more time. Hey! Pay attention and stop looking at my daughter!!
    Likely neither have those. Anything beyond 15,000 is a guess.

    "We can now start being more and more confident that 60-70,000 years ago, in Southern Africa, people were behaving, on a cognitive level, very similarly to us," she told BBC News.
    Map of South Africa indicating position of Sibudu Cave"

    Wonder if she has ever attempted to make a simple stick and string? Hawking for money is what that is.

  6. #6

    Default

    Why do they assume they are arrowheads (and not cutting tools) and why presume there was a bow to shoot them with? No scale. Are they 2", 4", 6"???
    How about throwing a spear?

  7. #7
    Administrator Rick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Indiana
    Posts
    58,832

    Default

    Why do you think it's a guess. Carbon dating is pretty accurate up to that age realm.
    Tracks Across the High Plains...Death on the Bombay Line...A Touch of Death and Mayhem...Dead Rock...The Griswald Mine Boys...All On Amazon Books.

  8. #8
    2%er Erratus Animus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    376
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Why do you think it's a guess. Carbon dating is pretty accurate up to that age realm.
    yes to 15,000. CD has been replaced with argon matrix gases because of the inadequacies with C-14 measuring. Half life of c-14 is 5700 years. After 3 half lives the data becomes questionable. There are a few other methods which are a bove Argon gas chromatography used to measure with as well.

  9. #9
    naturalist primitive your_comforting_company's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    31º4.3'N, 84º52.7'W
    Posts
    3,969
    Blog Entries
    7

    Default

    Funny, Rick mentions that.
    My fodder pieces end up in the driveway (mudholes) and all sorts of folks will pick them up and be like "wow, can I have this?"
    I like to entertain the idea that someone will find them 50,000 years from now and say, "Wow, these crude points must be 100,000 years old".

  10. #10
    reclinite automaton canid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central California/West Texas
    Posts
    6,622

    Default

    well; two points:

    1. i'm not convinced those are projectile points based on their interpretation alone. the presence of animal remains supports the theory that they where used on animals in some fashion, and not - without a more detailed analysis supporting evidence of mounting/hafting - that they where even hafted tools. unlikely as it might be, it would take much to convince me of that, but then there should still be evidence of impact damage to support their use as either projectile or thrusting points, and from there one must still make a distinction between the use of thrusting weapons [known to have been used for far longer than we actually know shafted projectile weapons to have been in use, and further distinguish them from other types of shafted projectile weapons, also known to have been used farther back than we actually know archery and the bow to have existed, such as thrown shafted weapons and atl-atl type weapons.

    there may be a paper with such evidences, but i saw no reference to one. i should add that by impact damage, i mean beyond micro-wear type fractures that can occur from low force usage, since the article listed an opinion rather than detailed the evidence [e.g. by what standard was it determined that micro-fractures where the result of projectile impact vs. manual thrusting/stabbing/simple droppage].

    2. many of the ancient points are very roughly made. some cultures have taken great pains to produce aesthetically pleasing stone tools, demonstrating the best of the knapping skills of the time for some purposes, and probably including practical use, but often you will see tools which where clearly made to suit the practical requirements of their use and not much more.

    i have personally made a great number of tools - stone and otherwise - which where ugly as sin, but perfectly suitable to work. this is particularly true when i have started to make a new type of tool. since knapping, and other toolmaking technologies are broad enough that one could spend a lifetime perfecting the art of making one of them, i don't think you could expect the average ancient toolmaker of any culture to be an expert in all facets, and this probably becomes more true during the actual advent, or early cultural exposure to a new tool technology.
    Last edited by canid; 08-27-2010 at 06:08 AM.
    Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice - Grey's Law.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To see what's going on in my knife shop check out CanidArmory on Youtube or on Facebook.

  11. #11
    2%er Erratus Animus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, USA
    Posts
    376
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by your_comforting_company View Post
    Funny, Rick mentions that.
    My fodder pieces end up in the driveway (mudholes) and all sorts of folks will pick them up and be like "wow, can I have this?"
    I like to entertain the idea that someone will find them 50,000 years from now and say, "Wow, these crude points must be 100,000 years old".
    LMAO! I thought the same thing about my work lol.

    I showed my last one off, which was notched and very long ans thin, to a friend and he was like "where did you find this!" it never dawned on him it was glass and that I had made it! lol

  12. #12
    reclinite automaton canid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central California/West Texas
    Posts
    6,622

    Default

    i like to knap in the woods, up in the mountains. i sometimes wonder if somebody will find some of my leavings an get confused/excited.

    last time i was out to carson iceburg wilderness i left a fair amount of waste flakes, partial pieces, a couple of hammer stones, etc in situo, but then i also marked 'knapping rocks' on a stone with some chalk found nearby.
    Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice - Grey's Law.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To see what's going on in my knife shop check out CanidArmory on Youtube or on Facebook.

  13. #13
    Super Moderator crashdive123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    44,846

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by canid View Post
    i like to knap in the woods, up in the mountains. i sometimes wonder if somebody will find some of my leavings an get confused/excited.

    last time i was out to carson iceburg wilderness i left a fair amount of waste flakes, partial pieces, a couple of hammer stones, etc in situo, but then i also marked 'knapping rocks' on a stone with some chalk found nearby.
    Me too. I can nap just about anywhere.
    Can't Means Won't

    My Youtube Channel

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •