The ALICE Thread

[sgtdraino]

Since the "Internal or external frame pack" poll thread has become rather ALICE-intensive:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...?t=4714&page=2

...and since we don't appear to have a thread just for ALICE-related stuff... well, now we do! Anything ALICE-related, hopefully you'll be able to find it here.

ALICE stands for All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment, a system adopted by the US military in 1973, which has by now mostly been phased out in favor of the MOLLE system. ALICE on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-pur...ying_Equipment

Here is a link to the official manual for ALICE, graciously provided by Rick:

http://www.georgia-outfitters.com/_a...licemanual.htm

And here is another site with an extensive amount of information on ALICE, as well as a lot of pictures of different parts of the system, and different variations:

http://www.prc68.com/I/ALICE.shtml

Of course, ALICE is probably best known for two backpacks: The Medium and the Large, both designated "LC-1." The medium pack can be used with or without an external frame, whereas the large is only designed to be used with the frame. The packs look very similar, except that the large is significantly bigger, and has an additional three small equipment pockets located over the center external pocket.

Medium LC-1:

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Large LC-1:

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Contrary to logic, there is no such thing as a "Small LC1," the proposed small version was rejected by the military when they adopted the system. You may find "Small ALICE packs" being sold from various sources, but these are not real ALICE packs, it's probably some made-in-China thing.

Extra pouches and equipment can be attached to ALICE items via the use of ALICE clips:

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The ALICE system utilizes an aluminum frame:

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To which can be attached one or two aluminum shelves, for carrying extra-heavy items:

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This external aluminum frame is probably the chief complaint about the ALICE system. You will hear folks say that the frame "has no suspension." The idea with a frame backpack, is to distribute weight off of your shoulders, down to your waist. Properly-fitted, most of the weight should be on the kidney belt cinched around your waist. The shoulder straps of the pack are only there to keep the pack upright, against your back. To accomplish this, the tops of these shoulder straps must be "suspended," attached to a point that is above the top of your shoulders. Otherwise, you will feel these straps pulling down on the top of your shoulders, causing a lot of stress and fatigue.

Most modern external frames are quite tall, rising up behind your head and providing attachment points for suspending the shoulder straps. The ALICE frame is rather short in comparison, because (sensibly) the military did not want to restrict a soldier from inclining his head, so that he could look up, or potentially hit the dirt and fire from a prone position. The problem is, for many folks, this means that the ALICE frame does not rise high enough to properly suspend the shoulder straps. For these folks, carrying a loaded ALICE pack for any extended period of time can be a really miserable experience.

On a related note, there are also stories of frames breaking, or (especially) popping rivets, particularly coming from Airborne troops who have jumped with the pack. Some modern frame packs use frames that are somewhat flexible, made of various plastics instead of metal, which allow them to flex with the body and absorb shock. The aluminum ALICE frame does not flex at all, so it either holds, or it breaks.

The two greatest strengths of the ALICE system, are its durability (in spite of the frame problems, the ALICE system as a whole is very VERY tough, generally regarded as tougher than MOLLE), and the ease at which it can be modified. There are lots of popular modifications, and many folks mix ALICE and MOLLE together to create a hybrid system. ALICE parts can often be found very cheaply, making it a very cost-effective system to build and modify.

One popular modification for the ALICE pack, is dubbed the "Hellcat" mod, invented by Enforcer. He goes into detail about it here:

http://www.survivalistboards.com/sho...t=47472&page=2

It's basically an ALICE pack and frame mated to a MOLLE suspension system (shoulder straps) and kidney belt, with a MOLLE Modular Sleep System carrier slung on the bottom. The MOLLE straps can be adjusted up and down, making the pack more adaptable for people of varying heights. Some folks have had a lot of success with this mod, making the pack much more comfortable to carry. I think perhaps this mod may be more effective for shorter people. I tried it myself, but it did not work for me. I am 5'10", and for me the suspension was not sufficient. However, here is Enforcer himself with some words of encouragement:

You mention that you've been unable to get proper adjustment being 5'10; I'm 5'11 and have had no trouble. I mention this because height is really not the issue. It is torso length. A 6'2" person can have a shorter torso length than a 5'10" person. You may want to correct your height limit regarding the Hellcat in your "wilderness" post because the ALICE frame w/ molle suspension is vastly superior in attaining the broadest range of torso length than the "euro-flex".

The limitation w/ EF frame is the same as the MOLLE; the slots provided for the straps on the frame. There are only so many. Thus limiting the range to approx 4 inches of adjustment. The ALICE frame will allow adjustment of just under 8 inches or between 13-20.5" of torso length.

As I mentioned in my original Hellcat post; this mod might not be for everyone. That statement is certainly holding true. For your readers education be sure to emphasize "torso length" and the standards established by most pack mfg for pack fit and adjustment. These are laid out in the REI guide I previously posted.

Enforcer is referring to these two very handy links:

http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/arti...+hip+size.html

http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/arti...sting+fit.html

The next thing I went for, was a footnote I found on the Zen Backpacks site, which has a lot of good educational stuff about backpacks in general:

http://zenbackpacking.net/Backpacks.htm

On that site, I spotted the following quote:

Outdoor Products - produces a simple and economical EnduroFlex plastic framed pack that works surprisingly well. This is the same frame (with a different company name) as Coleman's Ram-Flex synthetic frame used in their old Peak 1 packs, used by other outdoor companies (such as custom hunting equipment companies) and by individual US airborne troops needing a frame that can withstand repeated impacts. The smaller version of this frame can be easily modified to be used in packs designed for the US Military ALICE frame. A pack with the small frame version can be purchased for less than US$ 40.

I then did some more research, and read about the Airborne's experience with both ALICE and MOLLE. With ALICE, their aluminum frames were popping during jumps. With the MOLLE CFP-90, the overall poor construction of the packs were causing them to tear up during jumps.

I was with the 101st Abn Div (AASLT) when the CFP-90 was fielded-(I never used it)-saw lots of them tear, snap, break shoulder straps and shear adjusting screws for the frame-the 101st turned in CFP-90s and went back to ALICE-

[sgtdraino]

As previously mentioned, the Airborne ended up going with Coleman's Ram-Flex frame (now called EnduroFlex, and made by Outdoor Products), which could be easily modified for use with the tough ALICE LC-1. I decided to try that route myself, and purchased an Outdoor Products "Dragonfly" pack (the smallest pack with the EnduroFlex frame) off of ebay for about $22.

Once I got it, I basically just took a dremel tool and cut down the top of the frame until it was narrow enough to fit into the frame pocket on the ALICE (this was the scariest part, as I knew there was no going back). Once that was done, I swear it's almost like the thing is made to work with an ALICE, as well as an MSS sleep system carrier bag for the bottom, and the MOLLE kidney belt. All the attachment points are very intuitive. "Oh! That can go on there! Perfect!" I was even able to use my original ALICE straps, which I like better than the MOLLE straps (those pinch my neck a little) or the stock straps the Dragonfly came with. There are three different heights at which you can attach the kidney belt to the frame, and I had plenty of leeway. I ended up using the "middle" point. I swear, I think this thing is perfect. Of course a long hike is the real test, but wearing it around fully-loaded just feels "right," a lot more "right" than the original frame ever did.

Here's what I did...

Hopefully these pictures aren't too friggin huge. If they are, let me know and I will make them smaller.

This is the only picture I could find of the original unmodified Enduroflex frame:

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And here is how I shaped the top of it with a Dremel tool, to fit into the pocket of the ALICE. I know it looks thin on the edges from this angle, but it's really not as bad as it looks. from the side, that frame is pretty thick:

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Here's the pack up on the frame:

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And here's a close-up view of how I've attached my original ALICE straps to the frame:

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Here's a full view of the back of the pack:

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Here's a close-up view of the MOLLE Sleep System carrier bag, and how it's attached. Note that with this set-up, the MSS carrier is mounted with the BOTTOM against the frame. You'll see why in a sec.

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Here's a side-view showing how the MOLLE belt is attached, as well as how the bottom of the MSS carrier is attached. Note that there are three different heights at which you can attach the MOLLE belt, I chose to feed it through the "M" and "S" slots:

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Here's another side-view of how the MSS carrier is attached, from a slightly different angle:

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Note that the metal clips at each corner of the bottom of the MSS carrier go through those slots, and secure the bottom of the bag to the frame perfectly.

Here's how high up the pack comes, with the MOLLE belt attached where it's at. I could make it ride even higher, but I think this height is a good compromise:

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Here's a side-view showing how the suspension on the shoulder straps works:

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Lastly, here's an angled view, showing detail on the attachment points of the straps:

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A couple of questions on the Alice. I see a couple of zippered pouches on each side. What are those?

I'm glad you asked me that! Those two long zippered pouches on either side are "Alice Pack Add-a-Pouches" from Barre Army/Navy:

http://shop.vtarmynavy.com/shared/St...unt2=881629586

From the menu on the left, click on "Military Equipment," then "Military Backpacks," then you will see an option for "Alice Pack Add-a-Pouch." They sell three kinds, long ones (for the sides), short ones (for the sides or back areas), and a square one that can attach on top, over the main compartment flap. I just got two of the long ones, so far they seem pretty great. Some folks also like to attach MOLLE hydration bladder carriers to the sides of their ALICE packs, they have a similar profile to the long Add-a-Pouch. Easy to find those on ebay.

I did put an extra pouch on top of the pack, but instead of the Add-a-Pouch, I used an old surplus ALICE butt pack, which I think would hold a lot more.

Did you modify the Alice to accept the Fastex buckles or did it come that way.

That's a mod on my part, though all I really did was cannibalize the Fastex buckles from other items, and attach them to the pack using extra strapping. I didn't have to permanently alter the pack, although it is a pretty popular mod to do that.

It's hard to tell because the pics don't give a real good idea of how big the pack is but, I'm pretty sure that pack would carry all the food and gear I need, except for water, for a week or more.

Oh yes, I would think so. My setup uses a Medium ALICE, but a Large could be used in its place. The military intends for both the Medium and the Large to be big enough to accomodate a "subsistence load," i.e. sufficient supplies for a soldier to survive in the field for an extended length of time. Plus, the MOLLE MSS carrier slung underneath adds a LOT more carrying capacity.

My frame is not exactly the same as the one pictured, but I think it might still work.

Take another look at the Zen Backpacking link:

http://zenbackpacking.net/Backpacks.htm

Scroll down a bit, and you'll see an EnduroFlex frame pictured that looks different than mine. Is that it?

I suppose you'll just have to measure the frame, and the pocket, and see if you think you can cut enough off to fit it in there, without compromising the integrity of the frame. Let us know how it goes!

[RangerXanatos]

I think you deserve some of the green stuff.

[hunter63]

Very good, "Everything you ever wanted to know about Alice"

Lots of thought, experience, and work went in to that tutorial, thanks for your effort.
Atta boy your way........

[finallyME]

Well, you did a great job on the frame and making it the way you wanted. It also looks like it fits you well. But, I don't know if I like it completely. Why did you ditch the original suspension on the frame? I see why you cut the frame, it makes sense. I just think that there might be a better solution. Maybe sewing straps to the ALICE bag, and cutting off the now unnecessary top padding. However, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you like it, and it works, then I am happy for you.

[sgtdraino]

Thanks guys!

However it still looks like what I call a large "Day" pack.

It's hard to tell because the pics don't give a real good idea of how big the pack is

Here's a couple more pictures which will hopefully give a better idea of size. This is with every compartment stuffed full to capacity, mostly with just clothing for purposes of taking the pictures. With all the compartments stuffed full of clothes, total pack weight is about 38 lbs. Also, for size reference, keep in mind that I am about 5'10". Here you go:

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Why did you ditch the original suspension on the frame?

I wanted to use as much original ALICE stuff as possible, for sentimental reasons. Plus, the ALICE straps just seem more robust, and also have a quick-release capability that the commercial suspension does not have.

I see why you cut the frame, it makes sense. I just think that there might be a better solution. Maybe sewing straps to the ALICE bag, and cutting off the now unnecessary top padding.

I wanted to avoid permanently modifying the ALICE bag as much as possible, again for sentimental reasons. But also, I like the way the Medium ALICE can convert to a frameless pack, for day hikes away from camp. The pocket setup allows this conversion to be pretty quick, and pretty simple. I also feel like that beefy pocket would be less likely to fail than individual straps, but perhaps that thinking is erroneous.

[finallyME]

Those pictures say a lot. I think your choice to use a medium instead of a large is a good one. The center of balance is much closer to you. Looks good.

[Beo]

I have a Large Alice Pack or Ruck Sack, but I don't use a carrier, all I have is a large pice of rattan wood in the top shoulder piece. I like the ruck or backpack to form around my body, just a left over from my Army days.
Beo,

[Rick]

One things for certain, medium or large, they can hold a LOT more than I want to carry.

[sgtdraino]

Updated Post #1 with some more handy info!

[SSG HAWK]

Nice job, Sgt.
Surprising there aren't a bunch of additional post here. You certainly started things out very well.

Here we are about a year later and the Gen 4 Molle Frame is pretty cheap and thanks to Enforcer's (AR15.com) Bobcat mod (search "Hellcat") I just mounted a Large Alice to a 1603 Gen 4 Frame. I made some other mods. I will try to take and post some pictures.

Thanks for a great start.

[carbean]

ALICE rocks! Wore some components to the range today.

[SSG HAWK]

Still have not had a chance to post my pictures of mounting the large Alice on a 1603 frame using Enforcer's Bobcat mod on this forum. I did post pictures on the survivaist forum where I (rather the wife) have figured out how to post them. I did a static load test and put 6 gallons and 10 2 liter bottles of water in the pack hanging from it's straps weaaring the 1603 frame; I calced that out at about 95 pounds of load; a whole lot wore than I will be carrying.

[SSG HAWK]

I have PM'ed Sgtdraino with out success. Does anyone know if he is deployed? I truely hope he is well.

I have just helped come up with a new mod on the molle waist belt that I use on both my medium Alice on an Alice frame (Enforcer's Hellcat)and my large Alice that is on a gen 4 1603 Molle frame (primarily based on Enforcer's Bobcat mod). In truth, I supplied the problem and the material and my super star creative shoe cobler supplied the answer. He always does great work and seems so happy to have the pack related challenges that I bring him versus just working on another pair of shoes. It probably does not hurt that I truely appreciate his quality, inexpensive work and always tell him so. Most shoe customers that come in while I am there just give him grief about his charges when I don't know how he gets by on these prices.

The Molle Waist belts apparently are made for troopers with waists as little as 29 inches, which is about what I wore when I was in basic a 100 years ago. Consequently, the belt left a lot of my old belly uncoverred and thus was not very comfortable. I also did not think 8 (4 per side) Molle strap attachments points on the belt was suficient. I took one like new and one pretty ratty Molle waist belt to my shoe cobler and asked what he could do. 5 minutes latter of cutting up the ratty belt with his super sharp leather knives he was measuring me for the finished product and was going to add extension pieces from the ratty belt to the like new belt; belly coverred, 8 more Molle points all for $20 plus tax.

Mission accomplished.

[SSG HAWK]

Another Alice Mod: additional outside pockets.

Some how I have about 5 or 6 more Alice medium packs than I need. Probably has to do with each time I buy something at a gun show and need somethink to carry it in the $5-10 old medium or large Alice with the Beat to Sxxt pads and belt are too good to pass up. I also have some new or like new Alice packs that probably have something to do with taking Ambien and the existence of a paypal account . Those who have taken AMbien probably know what I mean.

In any event I thought how easy it would be to cut the external pockets off of a medium Alice, melt the edges with a lighter so they do not fray, tape them about where I want them on my large Alice (ie: above the existing outside pockets) and then have my trustee shoe cobler sew around the two outboard sides and bottom (ONLY and not across the top)of the medium Alice pockets THUS LEAVING ACCESS to the large Alice mag pouch pockets.In other words he sewed a large U that includes the three pouches from yje old medium Alice. This he did for $15-20. In addition to allowing access to the original mag pouches we have created a handy good size admin pocket between the new pockets and the old mag pouches. To make sure anything I put in this admin pocket stays in, I then installed a couple gromment in the new pockets and the top edge of the large Alice that for paracord and a cordlock. I may also add some snaps so that the pocket can be completly closed but that is for another day.

Six good size pockets with ITW closures plus the mag pouches plus an admin pouch. Makes organization and fast access a breeze.

But as Rick says: the Large Alice will hold a whole lot more than we care to carry.

[Rick]

Sgtdraino is LEO now. He bops in from time to time so he'll answer on his next visit. He's pretty good about that.

You have a good cobbler. Hang on to him. In the event that you need to add some extra for all that muscle we put on in front you can acquire extensions for just about any designed belt. It doesn't matter what configuration the buckle is there is an extension that will fit it. Here's an example.

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[SSG HAWK]

Another Alice/Mole Mod: The Alice top flap.

I have never liked the small velcrow closed opening to the standard Alice top flap. I suppose there was a reason they made it that small but it is a big pain. Just to see what they were like, I orderred a used Molle II Main pack from ebay for some small number that I have forgotten(The freight was undoubtedly greater than the pack cost.). Only problem was that it was Woodland Camo. The pack was nice with all of it's Molle attachement points but was pretty heavy when compared to Ms. Alice. The Molle main pack flap was outstanding. Sounds like another project for the "Super Shoe Cobler". I carefully removed the nice Flap from the Molle Main Pack and the original flap from the large Alice. I safetypined/taped the Molle flap where I wanted it on the Alice. For like $10-15 the cobler sewed it on so it will never come off.

And now I have a pack flap with plenty of room inside it for my raingear and other essentuals and have a much bigger flap to help hold down my sleeping gear so it does not have to hang on the bottom of the Alice and kick my rear end and legs.

But now I have an OD (yellowed)Alice with Woodland: Molle shoulder straps, Molle waist belt, Molle sustainment pouch (only one that I use for my big boy thermos on the way to the Hunting Blind since I do not want it inside the pack and it won't fit the other pockets)and now a Woodland flap. Next project will be seeing what I can do with Rit Dye to improve the color of the large Alice (that was old and yellow) and to tone down the Woodland items.

Now if we can only get this posting picture thing figured out.

[SSG HAWK]

07 17 2011
I tried that "muscle" thing on my wife and she reminds me that there aare atleast 70 pounds of me that she did not marry 40 some years ago.

Sgtdraino is LEO now. He bops in from time to time so he'll answer on his next visit. He's pretty good about that.

You have a good cobbler. Hang on to him. In the event that you need to add some extra for all that muscle we put on in front you can acquire extensions for just about any designed belt. It doesn't matter what configuration the buckle is there is an extension that will fit it. Here's an example.

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[Winter]

Hahaha, alot of funny in this thread.

My Med ALICE ruck has a CFP90 "belt" on it. It works great.
When I was playing Army, I got a ruined CFP90 and stole the shoulder straps and the waist pad and modded my ALICE lg. Both made those RTO LRS rucks easier to carry.

Good thread Men.

[Rick]

You know, Hawk, that cobbler at $20 a mod has made about $650 on that $15 Alice. I'll bet he would have made you one from scratch to your specs for about $250. Of course, there'd be no fun in that. It's not about the money. I mean, look at bass fishing.