As always (and I know you know this) select the right tool for the job at hand. In your case I'm thinking chainsaw.Originally Posted by kyratshooter
As always (and I know you know this) select the right tool for the job at hand. In your case I'm thinking chainsaw.
Well, if Lewis and Clark didn't need it, I don't either.
I'm off to take everything out of my nylon pack, especially my flashlights, rubber sacks, polypropylene cloths, bic lighters, ferro rods.........
I had a compass, but without a map, it's just a cool toy to show you where oceans and ice are.
What makes you think that machettes are the newer and better invention of the modern era?
The explorers and settlers of North America had a choice between the two, and in the hardwood forests of NA the axe won out.
Fact is, we are not abandoning the modern when we chose an axe.
Like Crash said, chose the tool for the job. My chainsaw has been getting quite a workout today and I am about to go to work with a log splitter. I am not frozen in the past or locked into one technology.
Last edited by kyratshooter; 03-10-2012 at 03:34 PM.
If you didn't bring jerky what did I just eat?
Not to change the subject, but has anybody ever used on of those hand chain saws? You know that has more or less a piece of chain saw chain, with finger loops or handles. I have always wondered if those things worked very good. Just from looking at them in pictures, they could be more trouble than they are worth.
I have one that you can use for high limbs (20+ feet). It works pretty good. The only problem I've had with it is it wants to flip over if it comes out of the kerf. Then you have to work it back in teeth side down. Other than that they work. You wouldn't have that problem with a hand held.
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Here in Europe, in the middle age and before, both axe and machete (scramasax) were used. So I think using one or the other is more a personal choice problem. Now, in jungle (tropical and equatorial countries) I think machete is the best.
I don't know if you consider this observation revelant but...I have read of woodsman killing a bear with an axe but never heard or read of anyone doing the same with a machete. I would choose an axe over a machete for the northern forests that I live in. I have and have used a long machete and think it useful only for grass and very thin brush. I used to have a bolo style machete which I though was more usefull than the long bladed one.
An elaborate answer
Hi sgtdraino and everybody,
For several years I've been looking to find an answer to the same question as you. I think I have that answer now.
During the last 10 years I've used extensively machetes, axes, large bowie knives, saws and many other cutting tools.
To answer your question:
Short answer:
My choice: hatchet (not a machete and not any kind of axe).
Long answer:
Pre-statement: Different axes perform different and different machetes perform different. So, I need to comment for a particular hatchet and a particular machete. To be precise, let's consider one well known representative from each category: the Gransfors Bruks Wildlife hatchet and the Tramontina Bolo machete (both have about the same size and chopping performance overall). In this particular case, the hatchet weights 650 grams and the machete 400 grams.
Strong points of the machete:
- lighter in weight than the hatchet (if you travel a lot in an alpine environment, each gram of extra-weight costs you calories to carry it, so this is an advantage for the machete).
- can swing it for hours without getting tired and with almost zero chances to injure yourself (better balance); for comparison, the hatchet has most of its weight at the end, which makes each swing difficult to control; thus you'll consume far more energy to chop with the hatchet (because you need to control that heavy head) than with the machete; the chances of injuring yourself are also very high with a hatchet, especially if you are tired; a two handed axe would be easier to control, but would still consume you substantially more energy than a machete to do the same job.
- much more versatile than an axe, due to the length of the edge; you can choose to strike with the forward portion of the edge (which makes it more effective for flexible branches), or with the portion close to the handle (which is more effective for thick branches); thus, the machete is considerably more effective when cutting through heterogeneous kind of vegetation, while the hatchets and axes work well only with rigid thick pieces of wood which are fixed and can't move.
- more cutting edge available and blunt tip (especially designed to take accidental ground impacts without much damaging); a machete is much more forgiving than an axe; with a machete, even if you destroy by mistake a long portion of its edge, you'll still have a lot of edge remaining. For comparison, with an axe, if you hit a rock or something else hard, you'll run out of edge fast. The edge of an axe is short and exposed (all of it), while the machete has only the edge near the tip that is exposed to be damaged. Thus, if you abuse it, a machete will hold some functional edge much longer than an axe would. Also, with a machete you can chop at ground level and, if needed, can cut brush or trees from their lower end (near the ground); this would not make your machete unusable as it would do to an axe.
- better edge retention than an axe due to the long edge feature - an axe will have its edge impacted very violently during normal use (this is how it's designed to be used). A machete will have the edge portion that is close to the handle much more protected and thus, it will hold an edge in this area of the blade for longer (even if it's made from softer steel). To be more specific, due to the leverage that is generated by a long blade, the edge close to the tip has more velocity, while the edge close to the handle has more power and less velocity. With this portion of edge (that is close to the handle) a machete will cut into thick wood as deep as the hatchet, but with less wear induced by the impacts.
- a good machete is made of spring-flexible carbon steel, hardened to about 52-56 HRC, which means it won't break; thus, if you consider the durability, it is comparable with a good axe (none of them will let you down) plus the advantages mentioned at points 4 and 5 above; durability is not a concern for a good machete (unlike bowie knives - which are typically made in high carbide steel hardened at 58-60HRC and can break - machetes are more durable even they are thinner).
Up to here, I gave you enough arguments to understand why the machete is my favorite chopper! If you don't need to carve, to split wood, nor to cut something thicker than half of the machete blade length, then the machete IS THE CHOICE. A machete is the best shape that a piece of steel can take in order to have maximum chopping efficiency. Such a thin, wide long blade can penetrate into wood easier than anything else.
You need to continue reading below, in order to understand why I still prefer a hatchet in your scenario (unknown period of time, unknown environment).
Strong points for the hatchet:
If you need to stay for a long time in one place, you need to consider making a shelter, a lot of tools and weapons and splitting wood logs. You'd probably need to also cut solid, very thick trees.
- a machete cannot split wood. An axe can (even if it's a chopping axe). Unfortunately, this may become a must in some cases. The point is in a wet and rainy environment, the only source of dry wood is in the middle of thick logs, which need to be split. A hatchet (or axe) is not the best tool for splitting wood in a harsh environment. Very often it gets stuck into wood and if used without a platform as support, it doesn't work too comfortable (but still works). The best splitting tool would be a long, thick, convex grind blade (but I won't talk about that because it doesn't address your question - which is machete vs axe). Unfortunately, a machete won't work for splitting thick hard wood (it can take the abuse, but it's too thin and flexible to bee effective). I've tried it several times with oak wood logs and the machete was simply getting stuck in it and didn't want to penetrate deeper, doesn't matter how hard I was hitting its spine. A hatchet or axe would do it.
- a hatchet (not an axe) is capable of carving and with a good one you can model a lot of tools if you have time for it: spoons, owls, shovels etc. This might also be a must if you'll stay a long period of time in the middle of nowhere, as your scenario is considering.
- Thick, hard, dry wood, especially if you find it near a river, might be impossible to cut with a machete. Long blades (bowies and machetes) have serious penetration issues in this kind of wood. That's because a large round (near flat) surface that is too hard would cause the "platening" effect (the same that is caused by steel armor in the bullet proof tank walls). Also, during a heavy winter, frozen bark of thick trees may also cause the platening effect. A hatchet has that so-called "heel of the bit" which (if used properly) makes it possible to penetrate into any kind of surface. Thus, it may save you in extreme conditions. Basically, the hatchet would allow you to cut through everything (even if it requires more effort to use it).
These 3 abilities of a hatchet (that a machete doesn't possess): carving, wood splitting and penetration into hard flat surfaces make it preferable in your scenario. Any of the above 3 abilities might become your key to survival in some situation, thus, if you prepare for the worst, a hatchet would be preferred over the machete.
Additional note: please notice what kind of hatchet I have mentioned as an example above: one handed kind of axe, with a very good heel of the bit. Just keep in mind that a larger axe would not work for carving and might also be too heavy to carry. Also, a symmetric axe head (which doesn't have a well designed heel of the bit) might not do better than a machete against platening and might not work at all for carving. Additionally, a splitting axe should be also avoided in your scenario (because it works only for splitting ). My intention is not to advertise for a particular brand of hatchets (there are many good hatchets out there), but you need to know what kind of shape and size you should look for in order to keep the arguments above valid (if the axe you choose has a different design, some of my arguments above may not remain valid).
As a weapon, none of them is brilliant. If the attacking animal jumps on you and the fight turns body-to-body, non of the two tools would help you in close range. While still at the distance, you can swing a machete in a continuous slicing motion, but it wont' have enough penetration to stop a beast if it enters the range and gets hit. With an axe, you may have some chance in theory, but it is so awkward to control and reload, than you'd have a single shot opportunity. If you miss your first strike, you won't be able to throw the second before the attacker owes you. And due to its forward balance, you can't strike fast enough, so the real chances to have a successful first strike are very low. Against a human, the axe has the psychological advantage, but the machete has an edge over it as regards the practical advantage.
I hope my answer helps.
Regards,
the Scout
Last edited by the Scout; 09-06-2012 at 05:20 AM.
This forum is living proof that no thread dies a natural death!
I now retreat to my sancturary to contemplate the nature of karma and reincarnation.
If anyone devises a way to digitize the human soul I want to be posted as an axe vs machete thread, or a which three guns thread on WSF so I will live through eternity!
Last edited by kyratshooter; 09-06-2012 at 11:46 AM.
If you didn't bring jerky what did I just eat?
Ah, come on....that was a worthy dissertation.....just to say Hummmm I'm liking an ax better for what I'm doing, for me, for now.....Maybe some day, I'll go back to the truck and get a machete, just to try it out.
Soooo, about those three guns...........
Geezer Squad....Charter Member #1
Evoking the 50 year old rule...
First 50 years...worried about the small stuff...second 50 years....Not so much
Member Wahoo Killer knives club....#27
Yeap... and in completion to my above answer:
In my trips I'm carrying the machete only, most of the time (even if it's a 7 days trip). I travel a lot in the wild, not staying too much in one place. I have a tent (no need for a shelter). The fire can be feed with dead branches and dead trees that are not really massive. If it rains, I can survive without fire at all. The machete is more durable and more comfortable in use than the axe. It can do everything faster, with less energy spent.
As regards the disaster survival kit (I think this was what the author of this thread was thinking of), that's where my hatchet fits. In the case of a disaster, I might need to break doors, I might need to free the road from fallen trees, I might need to build a solid shelter for the entire family, I might need to build a raft, or to carve a lot of pots, spoons, traps, weapons & stuff. Yeap, if you need to start a new life onto a new earth, should go with a hatchet or an axe.
Ahh Grasshopper, you think there is completion in your humble synopsis of thought.
How encouraging to find one so innocent and with so little actual analysis of anything except opinion.
If machete was the best for cruising the North American woods, why was a device called a "cruiser axe" developed early in our history rather than a "cruiser machette". Why did the hatchet become one of the leading trade items of wilderness economy, why did the Hudson Bay Company include an axe in their survival kits rather than a machete, and who ever heard of the pioneers that hewed out a life in the wilderness with rifle and machete?
Our soft recreational use of the North American wilderness allows us a few misconceptions in equipment and its use but when the going gets tough the tough get an axe.
See, there is no completion of answer as long as one opinion differs from another.
If you didn't bring jerky what did I just eat?
Well, I guess that settles that.........
So, the Scout, where ya from, and intro stuff would be nice.......
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/f...r-Introduction
Geezer Squad....Charter Member #1
Evoking the 50 year old rule...
First 50 years...worried about the small stuff...second 50 years....Not so much
Member Wahoo Killer knives club....#27
I carry a hatchet because it fits in my backpack, cuts wood like a champ, and it also serves as a great hammer for driving steaks for a shelter. I figure a machette is good for dense jungle vegetation, and works well for that, but here in the non jungle, I can usually walk through or around brush and thickets, so that makes my hatchet more important than a machette. Just my opinion!
@The Scout - something to keep in mind is that the membership of this forum spans many countries and several continents. I can see where you are from (as a moderator) and your climate and surrounding terrain may vary a great deal from that of other members.
Short answer is an axe (by that I am assuming it's a hatchet not a full axe) just because you can use the reverse side as a hammer.
Ive been in the positions of having to use a hatchet to clear stuff away, much more of a pain than a machete, ive also used a machete to chop up logs , again, big pain but it can be done.
Ive considered seeing if I could draw up some designs that might be able to pull double duty, although I don't have the skill or means to come up with a finished product.
My country spans all kinds of vegetation and relief along its entire territory and all 4 seasons. But my answer didn't regard that. My answer regarded the scenario described by the initiator of this topic: he said he considers going for an unknown period of time in an environment that he cannot predict how would be.
I can design a machete that fits inside of its own handle, and it's also a couple of types of saw. :-)
Banned before he shared this awesome alchemy with us.
I had a compass, but without a map, it's just a cool toy to show you where oceans and ice are.
If I was in the jungle I would pick a machete, but I live out near woodlands so an ax is the best tool for the area.
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