Dampness- I really hate that!

[Wise Old Owl]

crap now I had wished I had read this - now I have to come back tomorrow.

[SSG HAWK]

Owl I think you are right on and it was Rick that pointed out this very idea that started me on my quest. Lots of open ventalation down low on the sides and all over my trunk. Since the holes are paper punch size they let the moisture out but I still get a very large percentage of reflective benefit. I slept on top of the bed last night 75 or so degres in side the expensive Bivy Bag with the full lenght slits. No condensation but that was because the side keep coming open becase I only have small amounts of velcro on the one side. I just spent an hour in it all closed up laying on the bed watching a movie and I can see I am going to need to put the 6 or 8 rows of paper punch holes every 2- 3 inches from neck to below the knees. I just have to figure out how to do it so it will look neat. (OCD don't you Know.) The concept worked perfectly in the $16 bivy bag so I am pretty show it will work in the much stronger &26 bivy bag; so much so that I orderred a $300 0 degree down bag last night. Planning on a camping trip with a similarly crazy friend to the Texas Panhandle this winter where -20 is very possible. Wife also is making me a very nice Mummy bag liner out of an Arny poncho liner so at least when they find the corpse it should be nicely wrapped up.

I have looked all over youtube and google and have not found anyone trying something like this; just alot of people complaining about condensation. Has anyone on this board played around with something similar?

[SSG HAWK]

Sourdough (or should I say "Mr. Boots") could I impose upon you to call up or email SJJ and get his thoughts? Sounds like he may have already solved the entire issue. You can feel free to mention that I also must not be right in the head or I would not be obsessing about this. (But it is pretty damn fun when it works!)Thanks.

[Rick]

I think you just touched base with SJJ. The other issue to remember with tents is convection currents. You are venting in and low where the cooler air is and venting out at the top where the warmer air is. You will get some convection of air when there is no breeze so the condensation will be pulled out through the top with the warmer air. You need to get condensation off of you, i.e., body moisture but more importantly breath. Then once it's off of you it has to be vented away so it doesn't collect inside bags (which you are accomplishing with your most admirable tests) and out of the tent so it doesn't collect on the inside walls.

I think AS's conviction that you start with clothing is spot on. But I also like what you are doing here. My liner is silk, which is a pain because it likes to move with you but is comfortable from a warmth and condensation perspective. I've even used a bag protector as a sleeping bag because the top breaths and the bottom prevents moisture from coming through. With a pad underneath of course. I'm the worlds worst at body moisture. When I get in a car in the winter all the windows fog up. I'm not sweating I just exchange a lot of water, I guess, along with all the hot air (before some one else says it). But as long as my tent is set up with the vents open I don't have a problem.

[hunter63]

OK let me preface this - I DID NOT READ THE ENTIRE THREAD> but I see clear problems.... In super cold weather - or high humidity indigenous Indians did not pitch tepee that way! they would build a small fire from local grasses and near peat to burn slowly in the middle and and the vent at the top was open not tied together like in the picture. The bottom of the Tipi was open to add chimney like venting..My source is very old movies and you can take exception to that................ But keep in mind when were shooting in the thirties there were advisers on set. Hides were used to keep up off the ground and warm, got to love buffalo smell.yea....

Not trying to give you a bad time.
So have you gone back and read the post on the Tipi?

That was a storage 6 pole rig with no attempt to 'live in it" necessarily, although I could be a temporary shelter.

Your information is mostly incorrect, you need to do a little more research
Remember......Guys in old movies had 6 guns that held 100's of rounds.

Tip... trenches to fire pit were used for fresh air, bottoms were down as tight as possible so the air exchange took place in the center.
Tops flaps were adjusted for temps, wind conditions, rain...etc and they were never really water proof with the sticks and all.

Occupents slept on low platforms or the ground, on hair on hides around the outside, master of the lodge in the back facing the door/with number one wife.......MIL slept by the door near wood pile.
This was mine in a "summer set", smoke poles wide open, door to the east........
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[Beans]

I have read the complete posting and unless I missed it NO one mentioned not putting your gear against the sidewall of your your tent. My experience has shown that if you place anything against the sidewall of your tent is allows moisture to "seep' through the tent wall and collect on the "gear" leaning against the tent wall. I always keep an air space between my gear and the tent wall.

Yes I am talking about gear on the INSIDE of your tent being put up against the INSIDE of your tent wall.

[Rick]

Hunter - Is that tipi double walled? It looks like it. That will also make a huge difference in condensation from the outside.

[hunter63]

It has a liner, that ties up around the inside of the poles, about 40 inches high.

Idea being air can go up the inside of the wall, between the wall and liner, and out but keep drafts down to the occupants.

Original tipi's were made of hides.

So far the best set of planes and references I've found.....
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Natur...dian-Tipi.aspx

[whitis]

tMother nature likes to get revenge on us for crawling out of the sea and causing trouble. Build a roof, floor, and walls, to code, and water will still find ways to infiltrate. Can't win for losing.


If you cut slits in sheet materials, it is generally a good idea to punch or drill holes at the ends of the slit to eliminate the stress risers which cause the slit to propagate (tear). For smaller perforations, use a sewing machine with no thread.

There is a class of products known as permeable radiant barriers. Aluminized/metalized tyvek(tm) or poly tarp style construction. http://www.radiantguard.com/, www.ecofoil.com, www.atticfoil.com, tyvek thermawrap (high permeability), tyvek enercor (not metalized, 80% reflectivity), etc.Variety of weights/strength/thicknesses. Cost is around $0.13/sqft but you generally need to buy a minimum of 500-100 square feet. Also available in bubble wrap insulated styles. There are a variety of potential survival uses for a material like this. Sleeping bags, sleep sacks, tarps, poncho/tarp with grommets, tents/yurts/shelters, blankets, coveralls, rain suits, jackets, pants, shirts, biohazard isolation cells, biohazard suits, emergency roof repair, sun shielding (A/C or power failure), solar cookers, etc. Ideally, you want something that is light, very tear resistant, highly reflective, waterproof and a wind barrier while still being breathable, fire retardant, mildew resistant, UV resistant, and has a maximum pore size small enough to block pathogens, and just the right amount of breathability.

[NZ_Nate]

Having any kind of clothing that is quick drying is a good thing. Having quick drying clothes that keep you warm, even better.

I agree with the fast drying thing. What do you guys think of the Bear Grylls survival Shirts (and other B.G. gear)? Is the newer technology worth it for longer term outdoor survival (living)? Or Is good old fashion wool the way to go?

Or how about "new" fashioned wool . . .

[NZ_Nate]

What a great group of posts! Learning a lot from all you guys. I had some thoughts.

The best way I have ever found to dry gear in rain/ high humidity is to have what I call a "hotbox". A hot box is similar to what has been described before with having a fire in a tipi. More accurately a hot box is a well ventilated space which is temp controlled to a very HIGH temp. As close to you can get to the temperature just before your clothes/bedding/gear start to burn, melt or get damaged. Its a different temperature for different things. You basically want to turn the moisture to gas which can be released. Your "baking" the wet out of your stuff. BUT . . . it has to be well ventilated so that the steam coming off your gear doesn't just go back into it. Let me be clear, this is not a "livable" space. Which makes it a bit different than the fire in the Tipi idea.

Couple different versions are:

3ft x 3ft x 3ft wood box which you can hang over your fire or stove. (ply wood works good or lash some poplar together) It would have large vent holes on the top and bottom and a "rack inside about 1 foot from the bottom to lay your gear on. Make it bigger or smaller as you wish. Obviously this doesn't really work if you are not in a "long term" camping spot.

More portable option:
Carry a good quality canvas tarp with you that can be set up tipi style to do the same type of thing but on the ground with hot coals inside. maintaining good ventilation but high temperature is the key which is why I love quality canvas. You should be able to see the steam coming off the canvas as the moisture tries to escape.

The basic idea is to create an enclosed area where the heat is high enough to counter the atmospheric moisture but not burn your gear.

As far as keeping things dry under wet/humid conditions:

Dealing specifically with shelter and bedding: I think that having gear that ventilates well is the first step. Next, for ground cover I have found the best to be a plastic tarp down under the tent with a solid 1 inch layer of DRY pine needles on top (and extending out past the edge of your tent at least a foot) with a good CANVAS tarp on top of that. Then your tent (or whatever you are using).

The logic behind this is that the plastic will keep the moisture from the ground from coming up and hopefully rain water from coming in as well. The moisture from inside your tent that doesn't get vented upwards will be sucked down through the canvas and absorbed by the needles. This has never failed me even in the wettest conditions. Unfortunately finding lots of dried pine needles in already wet weather can be tough sometimes. Here in NZ we have dead, dry fern branches nearly everywhere which do just as well if not better.


************
Some other thoughts on dampness
(don't read unless your really interested)
************

I guess the way I see it, you have two different categories:
1. Dampness of stuff on, or touching, your body
vs.
2. Dampness of stuff off, or not touching, your body.

Sorry this might get long, but I am just trying to think out loud here.
The reason I feel like they are separate in my mind is because I can deal with stuff being damp, but not making ME damp and therefore cold. So keeping items in category #1 dry seems of much greater importance.

As far as dampness for Category #1
We are combating two sources of moisture,
-Atmospheric Moisture and
-Bodily Moisture
From my experience the best way to combat bodily moisture is to stay cool and not over work your body. That way your body does not have to sweat as much to cool you down. I believe that this is one of the biggest mistakes of new outdoors people: not correctly cooling the body or over working the body. Unfortunately this is often not too controllable for people who might be carrying a bit of extra weight around. Extra weight is great for the winter but terrible for the damp warm weather which is what this thread seems to be about in general.

So I felt like that point needs to be made: Dampness is not as bad if its not making ME damp. And controlling bodily produced moisture is largely a matter of controlling your temperature better. (drink more water etc.)

I firmly believe in first wearing a good "wicking" layer all the time. I have tried all types from under armor to cotton to wool and I have NEVER found a better "under" cloth than Merino Wool. Merino is a type of sheep which lives HIGH in the New Zealand Alps. This wool has some particular trates that normal wool just doesn't. There is a brand which makes some really great Merino products called IceBreaker (no I do not work for them or even know them, I just LOVE their stuff) if you guys have used this stuff and found something better, please let me know!

Anyway, I know that was stupidly long but its just my thoughts. Please rebuff me. I can take it.

[BENESSE]

I concur on "Icebreaker" merino wool anything. "Stoic" too. It is expensive but worth every penny. I usually watch for sales and have gotten a lot of stuff from Steepandcheap, usually at 30% off. A few layers from thin to medium work wonders in unpredictable temps, and I found nothing better in blistering heat than a nice thin wool T.

[edr730]

If I want to stay warmer in my bag, I'll put on a pair of sweatpants and sweatshirt or more if I need to. If I need to, I'll slip inside an extra sleeping bag. If it's hot, I'll wear less and open the bag. If I use a tarp, I'll sleep with branches beside me or throw the tarp over a sapling to make an umbrella to peak the tarp or I'll use any other method to drain off the condensation and rain. If all I have is a blanket, then it goes over my head so I'll be warmer. Your breath and moisture keep you warm if you have nothing more to sleep with. You can dry out later. Often enough someone begins to explain to me about moisture and the value of fashionable underwear. I've never noticed the difference. I don't care much for getting up in the cold with bare skin whether sleeping inside or outside.
Beans make a very important and basic point that many forget...don't let the tent touch your bag or you'll get wet if there is moisture of any kind. The tipi with the tarp would make a fine area to sleep in. Much better than most tents. The water will flow down the tarp to the lower edges or out the top. The only problem with such a tipi is that you may get drips, on the inside, from where the tarp is allowed to wrinkle horizontal. The same happens in tents. The same tipi makes a perfect clothes dryer if some limbs are left on the poles on the inside. Just take off the tarp and hang the clothes on the cut off limbs and build a fire in the middle....you can twist the poles so the cut off limbs are on the outside of the tripod too...dried my clothes countless times like this.
Any tarp or ground cover that sticks out farther than the tent better be going downhill from the tent. I've never seen one that was but it could be made with a grade down from the tent with some effort. Most people make them in some tall grass and the ground tarp has a big lean toward the tent and catches all the water that falls off the sides of the tent. Gives it the old water trough effect.

[hunter63]

Several good points here.
Plastic under tent or shelter, good idea, but do not extend past walls.

Dry needles or leaves or what ever good idea as well,... we have used straw under tents and Tipi's in winter 'frozen butt" rendezvouses, more to prevent moisture being 'sucked up from the ground' when the interior is heated.
When breaking camp, straw stays frozen to ground, till spring, (or thaw)

Trenches around the perimeter. to allow for drainage, or run off and prevent the extended ground cloth to be rolled up in a rain catcher.

Tent or shelter ventilation, usually not a problem on primitive lodges, would be more of a concern with tents.... and I would imagine tented over hammocks
Nothing like waking up to find icicles from you breath hanging down.

Lodge or shelter placement, side hill steps or level ground below ridge line out of wind good idea, but watch out for drainage's...tent in ditch not good idea.

Good comments, lets kkep them coming.

[hunter63]

Just noticed double post, oops!

[SSG HAWK]

Ya know when I first started posted my wild hair, space blanket ideas I was hoping as an FNG here that I was not sticking my head too far above the berm because of the considerable amount of greatly knowledgable and solid thinkers on this board. Now, seeing all the great additional knowledge that is being shared, I am very glad I did. Not to slight any of the great responses, a couple really jumped out.(I have been away so I am just catching up.)

Mosture in my tent has not been an issue since the entire roof is netting and the one night it rained like mad everything still was fine. I also have an Alps Mountaineering Mystique 2 which has what is claimed as one of the best adjustable vents. But after these recent posts, I am going to install a couple more adjustable high vents on that tent and then take the Tipi idea and make sure I have some adjustable lower vents for air input which hopefully I won't need but it is all part of the fun of the project. I definately get the multiple points that we need the lower to upper air movement.

10 stars on don't let the gear touch the side of the tent.

Clothing. Although my current tests are in shorts and a teeshirt (this is Texas)when I go out in anything approaching upper thirties F I always wear wicking long underwear. I'd wear them to sleep in at home if my wife would knock off the laughter. I prefer polypro over the wool but I use both. As I continue my testing, which will cause me over time to have fewer holes so to maximize the reflective properties, I fully expect to appreciate the wicking abilities of my favorite sleeping "long johns."

Circles versus slits in the material. I only have had a couple tears using the very cheap mylar when I cut the slits but that mostly had to do with the fact that the packing tape I used close to covered every area that was slit. Cutting slits was very time consuming and dangerous process with my shaking hands. Circles rule! Got a couple old three hole office punches with a goal of assembling the parts and then punching nine holes at a time and discovered that the punches were so worn out that I had a lot of semi-holes. Bought a new adjustable three hole punch and it went so fast I gave up on my original idea of buying multiple new adjustable 3 hole punches and building a 9 hole mother of all punches. Also of interest was that when I used the three hole punch on the Adventure Medical Bivy 2 (now replaced with the "SOL Thermal Bivy") that I had no tearing problems since the material is much thicker. Got crazy trying to make multiple full length slits with periodic velcro which just was a big pain since when I rolled over the velcro opened up (This particular Bivy is a litle narrow for my "mature" body.) Bought a new SOL Bivy and plan on using that one with just the three hole punch and installing some "Mature cut" pleates on the sides.Since this Bivy has a soft material inside I will just bring the poncho liner (which my wife modified into a pretty neat mummy bag shape) as a back up.

Attic radiant barrier. Great minds you know. After a couple hours of web searching I found a firm (Atticfoil.com) that basically laminates the milar on each side of (lite weight)Blue tarps who sold me a 240 sq. ft. roll delivered for $50. I made a top blanket that was about 6" wider than the Sol Bivy, put a ton of 3 hole punch holes in about two hours. (The layout- neatness counts- takes the most time.) Last night back in the bivy netting tent it got about 58 degrees F and I slept like a baby wrapped up in my poncho liner mummy bag wrapped in the punched attic radiant barrier top blanket tucked under me. Had a bodily function break at 230AM and still wrapped up slid into my army modular sleep system (brand new)Black intermediate bag and zipped it up to my mid-chest. I expected to get soaking wet since that bag is rated about in the 0 to +10 range and I'm in the poncho mummy bag wrapped up like a baked potatoe in heavy alum foil. Alarm went off at 6 AM and there was no dampness or claminess anywhere. Big surprise. I think I am almost there. We have a low 40s nite scheduled next week and that will be a much better test. This attic material is just a bit heavier than the heaviest alum foil you can buy at the grocery store but has that blue tarp type reinforcement so is very strong. It would not feel good next to skin but I don't recall any excessive noise last night. They did tell me that long term repeated folding might cause dlamination so I plan to figure out how I will pack it, and posibly use some tape to reinforce it. I think I am going to cut the blanket head to toe lenght wise in the very middle and reattach it with a tape "joint" since I know I will be making a hard fold there for packing and I think the "potatoe blanket" might drape over me better at night with this tape hinge.

Next project is to make a very "Holy Potatoe Blanket" for the outside of the bedroll so I will be ready with that and my punched SOL Bivy in my 40 degree F bag when we get some below freezing weather in the next 90 days or so. A friend and I are planing on doing some below zero testing in the Texas Panhandle this winter. Once these projects are field tested, I plan on funding the making of this stuff by a Boy Scout troop or two for their use.

Thanks and please keep those great, observations, ideas and suggestions coming in. I appreciate them and this board.

Regards.

[SSG HAWK]

Whitis, I loved your sewing machine without thread idea but when I mentioned it to the wife she said something I did not quite catch about not with her million dollar machine...buy my own darn machine off of ebay ...and then stck it some where that I did not hear. (I am currently searching ebay.) This should greatly speed up the building process and greatly increase the reflectivity. World Class Idea!

Thinking about what Whitis and NZ Nate said: although I make my tent footprints out of tyvek (1"" narrower then the tent all the way around), is there any reason I could not use the attic radiant barrier (sans the three hole punches) to make a winter tent foot print? Or even a winter tent with a boat load of ventalation vents? (Yes I have way too much time on my hands but if I have my own darn sewing machine..........

[SSG HAWK]

Whitis,
I found a HEAVY DUTY old Singer 306W sewing machine on Ebay that supposedly works fine. If I use your great Needle without thread idea, what size holes should I put in and how to estimate the number of holes or linear inches of blank sewing holes to put in?

Can it be something simple like the largest needle the machine will handle and just draw and then sew top to bottom lines one inch apart over the entire SOL Bivy bag except for any known areas of hugh stress? Or in an abundance of caution should I do top to bottom lines/sewing 1/2 inch apart?

I assume I also need to do the bottom as well as the top?

I found it interesting as a novice that although I can not readily blow through the existing holes in the attic radiant barrier, I can easily see the lite through the holes.

Regards,

[Wise Old Owl]

I know the original post was mostly about keeping gear and shelter dry, but when I'm out in the green, most of the gear I need to stay dry is clothing. I also rarely ever make a fire, even when there is an established fire ring, so I can't rely on that to keep me dry.

Staying dry:

* Avoid cotton. Cotton kills. In heat I wear just a nylon shell, in cold I combine that with something like underarmor and fleece.

* Sleeping bag made of 100% synthetic fill. It'll wick the water away from your body and clothing.

* I don't sleep on the ground. I hang in the air in a 4-season jungle hammock with an XL rain fly. Rock to sleep like a baby without every picking up moisture from the ground. Snow or rain, I've stayed warm and dry.

* Fresh pair of socks for each day I -plan- to be out. Hang the damp pair on a drying line under the rain fly. In cold weather, I'll wear two pair of wool socks and alternate which one is the inner layer each day I'm on the trail.

* Don't walk point after a hard rain. Let the guy in front of you be the one to knock all the water off the leaves.

Got thru page 1 Rick and this is the best post - I am a little Leary of Gortex boots when I have seen Indians in the Americas do better with flip flops made from steel belted tires. Hey its just they do not appear to dry out. Discovered trail runners from Solomon and its a close out - Waterproofed and meshed, drys on the trail and comfy in 15 minutes after WADING thru water.


AND HUNTER 63 feel free to give me a hard time - I am here to learn too, So fill out that post -with more detail.

Several good points here.
Plastic under tent or shelter, good idea, but do not extend past walls.

I never trench - I pick places where the water cannot pool. I prefer a location that is head's up an elevated on a slope.

Most tents are poor ventilators, I have slept in three and four day down pours and a bathub floor with 4 inch sides "andre Jamet" in the past has saved me over and over again - rare to find that on a tent today - too heavy.

Solutions - 1 more vote for the hammock in wet weather.

[Rick]

I don't disagree with you on the Goretex vs. trail runners. That's not a fair comparison, though, based on the post. My point was even though your boots are wet your feet still stay warm. I won't intentionally wear my boots through a stream that forces them to get wet unless I have no option. If it's warm then trail runners are great. I like my Tivas for that too. Don't have to worry about wet boots with those.