The quest for the perfect survival gun

[Mountaintrekker]

I have been on the search for the perfect survival gun for some time. When I say perfect, I mean for me and my circumstances and enviroment. I live in Alaska and I'm out in some pretty neat remote places for my job and my wife and I are headed far off the road system sometime soon to live. So what I'm looking for is a gun, and I say gun because I've entertained the idea of rifles, shotguns and all manner in between. I'm looking for something that has the stones to take some of the bigger game out here and use for defense from the same furried friends. I also would like something that is easy to pack, (compact) stainless and has the ability to shoot .22LR for plugging small game and not atomizing it when I hit it.
I'm looking at having something in the GO Bag and or something I can throw in my pack for extended outings when I'm not hunting for a specific species. Something I throw in the boat when we go out and something I can load in my pack when snowmachining or jumping into aircraft at a moments notice.
This would be anything from a few day scenario to a few months to a full fledged holy crap this is it for the time being scenario. Here are some of the losers in my quest so far.
So I had a 22LR over .410... too small for defense on larger game and to bulky for what it was. I was able to carry a bit of ammo, but not the range and stopping power to down big game for winter survival or defense.
Then I went with just a Ruger 10/22 stainless with a choate folder... again not big enough, but at least we are now talking stainless.
I entertained the idea of a .223 over 12ga Savage combo. Lot's of options and I could use a .22LR insert in that .223 and really open things up, but it's heavy and not stainless and to make it that way would run me another thousand bucks with shipping it to the various places that do that kind of work. I also thought of the .30/.30 over 12ga, but hard to find and expensive to have finished the way I want.
I went with just my Redhawk .44mag which is stainless, compact, rugged and already in the gun cabinet. I can load some various cartridges up or down for various things... if I could just hit what I aim at with the damned thing! So, it's close, but still not "it".
Then I read the H&R and NEF thread and I thought I had found something... close, but I don't want to have to ship the gun to the manufacturer from up here just to get a barrel that I want. I also wanted a bump up in the quality sector. No offense!
I looked again at the .22LR insert idea and I found an insert for the 30.06 Encore that will shoot .22LR. So now I'm intrigued. How about this insert paired up with a TC Encore stainless 30.06 with a 24"BBL with iron sights?
I'm hanging on the 30.06 idea as that is what I have standarized my big game rifles to be for reasons mentioned in previous posts. I have plenty of ammo and reloading components.
This would allow small game getting at close to maybe 50yards and also allow me the comfort of hi power rifle performance should I need to shoot a large animal. It takes down into a smaller package and is corrosion resistant and has iron sights and is fairly light.
Here is the website for the inserts... http://www.mcace.com/rifleinserts.html
Has anyone used these particular inserts shooting a .22LR out of a .30 bore?

Maybe this is just another excuse to get another gun, but I have a niche that I can't seem to fill.
Calibers I want to work with as I have downsized and consolodated my armory. 30.06, .44mag, .223, 10mm, 12ga, .22LR if anyone knows of something that would work better.
Just throwing some ideas around and getting some discussion going.

[Pal334]

I have an oft displayed prejudice for a double barrel (coach style) 12guage shotgun. Relatively inexpensive,Light , reliable, virtually maint free and there is a variety of ammunition for most applications. While not perfect, it probably is close.

[Sourdough]

My view is this: In 40 + years in Alaska, only once was I in need of survival food and in a truly remote area (Upper Noatak River). It is fun to plan for, but almost any firearm will get food in Alaska. Never have I had to use a firearm for signaling. But one time my hunting partner did when lost and suffering very advanced hypothermia on the Robertson Glacier, and I and he communicated via firearm shots, he lived. So I would put both of those as way, way remote needs for the TOOL.

My primary real daily use of a firearm is defense from Humans with covert enterprises in the wilderness, Territorial Moose, but mostly Brown/Grizzly & Black Bears.

The most important requirement is that it make a loud and sharp noise, and that it be deployable in a mega-second. A loud "Blank-Gun" will send humans, moose & Bears on full retreat 90% of the time.

The single most important requirement is that be deployable quickly, so it either needs to be in hand, or with in reach. The problem is we are NOT on patrol, we are working, fetching firewood/water or rope or tool from the shed, hoeing the garden, looking for property lines, etc. So our hands often have other tools or fishing rods in them.

In Alaska there is way to much importance put on the killing power of the firearm, and not enough on comfortable carry of the firearm for 16 + hours per day. This carry method is further complicated by Rain, blowing glacier silt, leaves, seeds, hence my long love of flap holsters.

I am not saying that this is the answer, I own many, many firearms, but the one that is on me the most often is my Stainless steel S&W model 60 3" j-frame, with 200 Gr. hard cast CorBon cartridges. It is not perfect by a long shot. But it is small, (not in the way when working), it does make a painfully loud noise, and if by accident it hit the problem, it will penetrate 30" or more.

Even if packing the .375 H&H Elephant Gun, I'll most likely have the M-60 on me.

Any firearm will work, what matters is deployable, and comfort of carry. As Kevin says, if you can't reach it, it is useless equipment.

Suggested reading my threads on Flap Type Holsters (Yes, Not very Sexy). and the thread on walk-about Guns.

[Tripwire]

K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid

45-70 Handi rifle, no optics.

250gr for small game, 400-500gr for anything that walks in North America.

Less than 7 lbs with a sling. Use an ammo belt or bandoleer for carrying ammo.

Bore snake and CLP or Breakfree for cleaning.

You can get a Lee Classic hand loader, 1000 primer box, bullet mold, and 1-2 cans of powder (reloader 7 works well) and your set for years.

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/handiRifle.asp

Oh yeah, they are under $300 new

[hunter63]

We talking single tools here?
Remington 870 12 ga., 24" barrel, various chokes, various ammo.

MT, keep in mind that with .22 inserts in a bigger bore, the accuracy suffers as the barrel length is the length of the insert, the the .22 just rattles down any size over bore, like your 30-06.

.22 in a .223 work fine as the bores are the same.

[SARKY]

If you are looking at the Encore, just spring for another barrel.

[hunter63]

My view is this: In 40 + years in Alaska, only once was I in need of survival food and in a truly remote area (Upper Noatak River). It is fun to plan for, but almost any firearm will get food in Alaska. Never have I had to use a firearm for signaling. But one time my hunting partner did when lost and suffering very advanced hypothermia on the Robertson Glacier, and I and he communicated via firearm shots, he lived. So I would put both of those as way, way remote needs for the TOOL.

My primary real daily use of a firearm is defense from Humans with covert enterprises in the wilderness, Territorial Moose, but mostly Brown/Grizzly & Black Bears.

The most important requirement is that it make a loud and sharp noise, and that it be deployable in a mega-second. A loud "Blank-Gun" will send humans, moose & Bears on full retreat 90% of the time.

The single most important requirement is that be deployable quickly, so it either needs to be in hand, or with in reach. The problem is we are NOT on patrol, we are working, fetching firewood/water or rope or tool from the shed, hoeing the garden, looking for property lines, etc. So our hands often have other tools or fishing rods in them.

In Alaska there is way to much importance put on the killing power of the firearm, and not enough on comfortable carry of the firearm for 16 + hours per day. This carry method is further complicated by Rain, blowing glacier silt, leaves, seeds, hence my long love of flap holsters.

I am not saying that this is the answer, I own many, many firearms, but the one that is on me the most often is my Stainless steel S&W model 60 3" j-frame, with 200 Gr. hard cast CorBon cartridges. It is not perfect by a long shot. But it is small, (not in the way when working), it does make a painfully loud noise, and if by accident it hit the problem, it will penetrate 30" or more.

Even if packing the .375 H&H Elephant Gun, I'll most likely have the M-60 on me.

Any firearm will work, what matters is deployable, and comfort of carry. As Kevin says, if you can't reach it, it is useless equipment.

Suggested reading my threads on Flap Type Holsters (Yes, Not very Sexy). and the thread on walk-about Guns.

Been giving your post a lot of thought.
You didn't mention caliber, but I assumming that you talking .44mag?

I never have been a fan of short-barreled hand guns, but it makes sense.
The longer barrels 6" + do kinda get in the way if worn as a "doing something else carry".
Carried my .44 Ruger all over Colorado, Wyoming, and a couple of other states as my back up, going to the privey away from camp at nite, etc.

I also am a fan of a covered holster, especially crawling around in the brush, up and down hill/mountain country, in out of boats/canoes and prefer that my investment stays where I can reach it, as well as kinda keeping it dry and clean.

I can see a new addition down the road.
I glad I heard it from someone that's "doin' it".
Thanks

[Sourdough]

Been giving your post a lot of thought.
You didn't mention caliber, but I assumming that you talking .44mag?

No, .357 Magnum. (I think the smallest .44 Mag. frame is the "N" frame). Note: I have several Freedom Arms revolvers in .454 Casull, including a custom one with a 5" barrel, but I just never carry them.

[hunter63]

Thanks, I'm a fan of the .357 as well, Ruger GP-100 in SS has replaced the .44 lately.

[kx250kev]

Consider the light weight of a folding 9mm carbine with a 16" barrel to give the more accuracy/velocity/power.
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm

with 92FS 18 round Mec Gar Mags
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG129-36.html

Carbine + 9mm = very noticeable improvement in performance

[Mountaintrekker]

There seems to be a little confusion I was referring to this...
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreCenterfire.php

The stainless rifle with iron sights.
9mm is not an option up here...ever, at least for me. Heck, my wife carries a .44spcl snubbie or her Glcok 10mm at a minimum! I left all the 9mm stuff in the lower 48.

[klkak]

MT, I carry a S&W 629 4" and a M-94 Win. .44 mag. almost every day of the year. The .44 mag will kill anything that lives in Alaska. If you can shoot, the M-94 will take the head clean off a Spruce hen or Snowshoe without messing up any meat. This is not conjecture. This is 7 years of real life experience in the Alaska bush. As someone said earlier. Keep It Supper Simple, (KISS). Two guns one ammunition.

In Alaska the .357 is for whimps, sissies, little girls and really old men!

[klkak]

Consider the light weight of a folding 9mm carbine with a 16" barrel to give the more accuracy/velocity/power.
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm

with 92FS 18 round Mec Gar Mags
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG129-36.html

Carbine + 9mm = very noticeable improvement in performance

9mm! Might as well have a BB gun in the Alaska bush.

[Mountaintrekker]

Klkak,
Would you feel confident using your Win-94 .44mag on an average to smaller sized moose out to a 100yds, maybe 150yds? How does that rifle handle in cold, say -40F? I'm not trying to bust yer chops, I'm seriously asking. I haven't had a lever action fail on me personally and I've only owned 2 over the years, but some folks say stay away from them due to too many moving parts. I'm talking about longevity and reliability issues. Maybe I'm crusing too many forums... Is that the trapper model?

[lucznik]

In Alaska the .357 is for whimps, sissies, little girls and really old men!

Wow, I bet your "bravo sierra detector" was going crazy when you typed that!!

[hunter63]

I had my M 94 Win .32 Spl action freeze up on me twice.
Both from snow and rain, then dropping temps. Froze so hard I had to bring them in to thaw out.

I'll stick with a bolt model, thank you.


I do agree about the 9mm, as far as I concerned it a "retreat CingYA" , point behind you, let the double stack rip, while the hauling butte.

[kx250kev]

9mm! Might as well have a BB gun in the Alaska bush.

Kel Tec
Sub-2000
16" barrel

Cor Bon
115 gr.
JHP +P

1524fps
---------------------
S & W 629-5
Mtn. Gun
4" barrel

Cor Bon
165 gr.
JHP

1190fps

[klkak]

Klkak,
Would you feel confident using your Win-94 .44mag on an average to smaller sized moose out to a 100yds, maybe 150yds? How does that rifle handle in cold, say -40F? I'm not trying to bust year chops, I'm seriously asking. I haven't had a lever action fail on me personally and I've only owned 2 over the years, but some folks say stay away from them due to too many moving parts. I'm talking about longevity and reliability issues. Maybe I'm cruising too many forums... Is that the trapper model?

Yes I would feel confident using my m-94 on any sized moose. I've never had a problem with an m-94 in any caliber in any conditions I've used them in. I know natives on the north coast that use them for all their hunting....winter or other wise. Yes they do have allot of moving parts but then again so does the AK-47 and no one would say that it is unreliable.

If you are moving into the bush and you are only taking one gun, if you can handle the recoil I would suggest getting one of the new Ruger Hawkeyes in .338 win mag. It will kill anything in Alaska at and beyond 300 yard. It's easy to get ammo for. and it comes in stainless/synthetic. For a repeating firearm you can't get much more reliable then a Ruger bolt action.

I have a bunch of guns to choose from. When I'm after meat I take the .338 win. When I out cruising I take the win. .44 mag. If I'm hunting small game I use a browning bl22 or my 870.

[kx250kev]

Some pistol penetration data...a carbine should penetrate even further.

9mm pistol
Cor-Bon 115gr DPX. Impacted at 1153 ft/sec. Penetrated to 14.5" (corrected) and expanded to 0.538" average diameter.

Remington 147gr Golden Saber JHP: penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.618".

44mag revolver
Single shot impacted at 1571 ± 0.500 ft/sec and penetrated to 12.6 ± 0.031". Average recovered diameter was 0.743 ± 0.0005".

[klkak]

Kel Tec
Sub-2000
16" barrel

Cor Bon
115 gr.
JHP +P

1524fps

S & W 629-5
Mtn. Gun
4" barrel

Cor Bon
165 gr.
JHP

1190fps

Caliber: 9mm Luger Plus P
Bullet Wt.: 115gr COR®BON Self-Defense JHP
Velocity: 1350fps
Energy: 466ftlbs (suitable for self defence against humans and dogs)
Test Barrel Length: 4.0 Inches
American Made.
American Owned.

Caliber: 44 Rem Mag
Bullet Wt.: 165gr COR®BON Self-Defense JHP
Velocity: 1300fps
Energy: 619ftlbs (suitable for up to average deer sized game)
Test Barrel Length: 4.0 Inches
American Made.
American Owned

Buffalo Bore
Heavy .44 Magnum Ammo
Bullet Wt.: 305 gr.
Velocity: 1,325 fps
Energy: 1,189 ft. lbs. (suitable for Big Game up to 1000 lbs)
Test Barrel Length: 6.0 inches

If I were to factor in the 16 inch barrel of my Model 94 .44 magnum with any 44 mag ammo will out class the keltech 9mm with any ammo you put in it. The only advantage the Keltec has is more rounds and a faster rate of fire. However I don't believe in "Spray and pray"!

Shoot whatever you want.