Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?

**glockcop** · 10-13-2009, 09:31 AM

I just asked 10 people and nine of them said that my bowling ball was not "round enough". Eight of them anwered that way after the first "Tard" said so. NUFF SAID! Like Ole Coot said, I would not hesitate to pick up any weapon in a time of need but as for the the KoolAide, I aint drinking it. I know what several M-4's has gone through in my hands and it wasn't perfect conditions by any means. It ran and ran and ran. I'm not hear to convince anyone out of their view. I just know what my experience has taught me and I ain't listening to the media dribble or any one else. I am old enough to know to rely on my own lesson's learned, not other people's "war stories" or what have you (not meant about you Pal). Think about it for a minute. With soooo many m-16/4's in service your bound to hear stories of a malfunction in the field. The laws of probability apply. Yall take care.

**glockcop** · 10-13-2009, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Rick

They answered that way based on the fact that you took out the trophy case, the old lady in the next lane and consistently throw gutter balls. Perhaps the cause of the problem has been mis-identified but you have to start somewhere.

You should buy a Bersa .45

Rick, I actually used to own a Bersa 9. It was pretty descent for the $$. Honestly, your little plugs about pistols are really making me laugh

. That was a good un. Take care, Brother.

**Pal334** · 10-13-2009, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ole WV Coot

PAL we and others know that some draftees could care less in the '60s about weapons, sleeping on duty, stoned etc. The only idiot proof(almost) weapon was the AK. I always keep firearms clean and knives sharp, didn't have any problems and although the draft is gone you always get a few misfits that make a lot of noise. I slept with a S&W Mod 60 and it served well. Officers just dropping by to have it on their record, carrying nice, shiny $500 Bowie knives and fancy '45s presented by dear ole dad. It came down to the man behind the weapon in most instances, nothing is 100% reliable and I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an AK or anything if I needed it. That's a personal observation and everyone will have a different one depending where they were, you would know more than me after my time. Regular NVA were kinda like trying to whip a dog in his own backyard.

Still an issue, even with an all volunteer military. It takes a mean SOB NCO to keep them motivated sometimes. And even then is not always successful. Agreed, the regular NVA could be a tough cutomer. At least they were a fairly disciplined bunch, worthy of some respect. Not like the current bunch of "spray and pray" bad guys

**glockcop** · 10-13-2009, 11:15 AM

M-14 and SOCOM 16 are undoubtedly fine weapons that get the job done more often than not. BUT there is no cure all magic bullet. I have personally witnessed a "bad guy" take a .308 to the chest and he still had enough gas to run. When caught he still faught before "God stepped in". In New Orleans I have also seen more than a few AK 47 rounds NOT get the job done dozens of times over the years. Charity Hospital wanted to issue .300 Win Mags to the drug dealers

. Maybe that will kill the roaches. Probably not though. Ya just can't rid the world of crap. By the way, If ya'll do find a magic bullet, let me know because I could use some myself. Best.

**Rick** · 10-13-2009, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Glock

your little plugs about pistols are really making me laugh

It's supposed to. By the way, you should buy a P series Ruger .45

**glockcop** · 10-13-2009, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Rick

It's supposed to. By the way, you should buy a P series Ruger .45

Had one of them too and liked it alot.

**NCO** · 10-23-2009, 08:46 AM

I'm not surprised at all. I never had that problem in green, but we had RK 95 TP 7.62-39mm. Basically an AK 47 on steroids. Accurate as hell, to the distances we shot from. Max around 300m. Never jammed, never failed. Froze once, but that was fixed by giving it a whack at a tree.

**Beo** · 10-23-2009, 11:50 AM

The M4 is a great weapon, durable and works well in all conditions and I never had a problem with mine when I was in the Army, with BW who is now Xe (Z) Worldwide, or even now as deputy. Operator error does come into play sometimes (although not always) and the M4 is nothing more than a tool. Personally I like the M4 but think the military should switch to a more updated rifle that has a little more muzzle velocity (knock down power).
Just my opinion
Beo,

**TangoFoxtrot** · 10-25-2009, 08:21 AM

When I served in Iraq in 04 my M4 operated alot better with a graphite lube. Sand got into everything! Of course the graphite lube was against Army SOP....oh well!

**WoodSmoke** · 11-07-2009, 12:47 AM

I just wish they'd go back to the 55 gr. bullet and the 1 in 12" rifling with the 20" bbl.

That's what gave the M-16 it's reputation as a nasty rifle, the newer loads and shorter barrels have reduced it's effectiveness. Sure, it still works, not as well as others, but it works... and it would work so much better if they quit trying to fix what wasn't broken.

That's the military for ya though, always trying to go one better, even if what ya have works well. Hell, from what I've heard, a Garand would work wonders right about now.

If they could find someone who really knew how to shoot it. Or shoot any rifle for that matter.

**Proud American** · 11-11-2009, 01:54 PM

My take on the M4 from what I have read and heard from people that know what there talking about(I have never shot either an M4/M16) is an old military saying "Never forget your weapon was made by the lowest bidder." and with that I would like to say that M4/M16 are used by America and other countries over the AK series because they feel they are better. The AK is cheap and runs well so they use it while other countries that have more money buy M4/M16 because they feel there getting a better gun. The reason the M4 has not been replaced by other guns is the cost is not worth the benifits.

On another topic,I heard from my uncle there thinking of going back to bigger rounds.Not because of jamming but the fact that 9mm and M4 werent doing the job. The original M16 was more lethal thatn the M4 because the bullet tumbled creating those nasty wounds. Now though are .223 don't tumble and just make litle holes so it takes to many rounds to take an adrenaline pumped terrorist out. He said that the 9mm is haveing the same problem and having 15 rounds of lighter ammunition isn't better then 8 rounds of .45cal.

Just what i have heard please don't jump the nerdy kid all those with more experience

**glockcop** · 11-12-2009, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Proud American

My take on the M4 from what I have read and heard from people that know what there talking about(I have never shot either an M4/M16) is an old military saying "Never forget your weapon was made by the lowest bidder." and with that I would like to say that M4/M16 are used by America and other countries over the AK series because they feel they are better. The AK is cheap and runs well so they use it while other countries that have more money buy M4/M16 because they feel there getting a better gun. The reason the M4 has not been replaced by other guns is the cost is not worth the benifits.

On another topic,I heard from my uncle there thinking of going back to bigger rounds.Not because of jamming but the fact that 9mm and M4 werent doing the job. The original M16 was more lethal thatn the M4 because the bullet tumbled creating those nasty wounds. Now though are .223 don't tumble and just make litle holes so it takes to many rounds to take an adrenaline pumped terrorist out. He said that the 9mm is haveing the same problem and having 15 rounds of lighter ammunition isn't better then 8 rounds of .45cal.

Just what i have heard please don't jump the nerdy kid all those with more experience

Don't believe the hype. 9mm and .45 ball aka "FMJ" perform very, very similarly. if anything 9mm ball has a slight edge due to deeper penetration because of it's better sectional density. 9mm also has more hydrostatic shock because of it's higher velocity. Niether is "better" than the other in reality. The fact of the matter is that all combat pistol calibers are pretty poor stoppers. If you know your going in harms way bring a shotgun with buckshot or rifle. We carry pistols because they are easy to tote around not because they work so well. You are absolutely correct about how and why the older M16 ammo worked better than today's heavy grain 5.56x45 ammo. Stay safe.

**TangoFoxtrot** · 11-17-2009, 07:41 PM

Lets be realistic. I used an M4 myself in Iraq in 04, and it by no means was perfect. I will stay it was balls accurate.

**glockcop** · 11-18-2009, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot

Lets be realistic. I used an M4 myself in Iraq in 04, and it by no means was perfect. I will stay it was balls accurate.

Nobody said it was perfect. Close as a modern combat rifle can get though in my not so inexperienced opinion. Ive been teaching it's usage for years and can say it is one of if not the finest military rifles ever created. I have issue with people that have never owned an M4 or just shot a worn out issue or range weapon and declaire it a piece of crap. Not fair to the namesake of the weapon and not good advise giving. Those are usually the guys who could not scratch up the cash for an AR style rifle and settled on an AK or SKS. They then repeat unfortunate "war stories" (mostly media fabrications) to justify their ownership of a cheaply made weapon. In their hearts they still want an AR / M4 but their wife will divorce them if the electric bill is not paid. Just my opinion. M4's are also waaaayyyy more accurate than just about any other combat rifle out there. Thank you for your service in the sand box. Stay safe, Brother.

**TangoFoxtrot** · 11-21-2009, 07:03 PM

Glockcop, The blackrifles have come a long way over the years. The problem lies with the military(gov't) and its lowest bidder policies. Their are better grades of the rifle(M16) but at higher price tags. Our soldiers should be armed with the best built version......and your welcome.

**glockcop** · 11-23-2009, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by TangoFoxtrot

Glockcop, The blackrifles have come a long way over the years. The problem lies with the military(gov't) and its lowest bidder policies. Their are better grades of the rifle(M16) but at higher price tags. Our soldiers should be armed with the best built version......and your welcome.

Agreed 100%. I guess that Rock River Arms needs to build a bigger factory so they can supply the military with the M4

. Their weapons are simply superlative IMO. Stay safe, Brother.