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Boker
12-29-2009, 05:55 PM
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90


Pure abuse.

Rick
12-29-2009, 06:07 PM
What's the point?

2dumb2kwit
12-29-2009, 06:11 PM
What's the point?

Yeah...if any of that stuff happens to it, while I'm wearing it, I'm not going to be in any shape to shoot, with it! LOL:blushing:

Pal334
12-29-2009, 06:20 PM
:confused1::confused::dodge::dodge::dodge:

2dumb2kwit
12-29-2009, 06:23 PM
Ya know.....I wouldn't mind having a high capacity Glock, chambered in 7.62x25!:drool:

glockcop
12-30-2009, 07:48 PM
Find another pistol that can take that and I'll kiss your butt on Canal and Royal Street. I'll even give ya a half hour to draw a crowd. Your Glock will most prolly never see this abuse but it's nice to know it can take it. Simply this best design ever!

crashdive123
12-30-2009, 07:56 PM
What time will the crowds be the biggest.:lol:

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

Boker
12-30-2009, 07:57 PM
Find another pistol that can take that and I'll kiss your butt on Canal and Royal Street. I'll even give ya a half hour to draw a crowd. Your Glock will most prolly never see this abuse but it's nice to know it can take it. Simply this best design ever!



I actually posted that with you in mind. One thing about Glocks you either like 'em or you don't. I was in LE when they first came out <EDIT: When they became popular in rural Okla> . The very same officers that used to laugh at the 'plastic' guns now swear by them.

2dumb2kwit
12-30-2009, 08:10 PM
What time will the crowds be the biggest.:lol:

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

This may help.:innocent: LOL


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Pal334
12-30-2009, 08:12 PM
What time will the crowds be the biggest.:lol:

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

I personaly don't care what time. Iwill be there for the whole show :)

Rick
12-30-2009, 08:13 PM
Mardi Gras won't work. Everybody is kissin' everybody's butt then. We want this to be a spectacle.

glockcop
12-30-2009, 08:45 PM
Chuck Taylor (gun writer) has a Glock that last I checked had somewhere in excess of 900,000 rounds through it and still going strong w/o a major parts breakage. The XD is a great gun but 20,000 rounds and 900,000 is not even close. I also missed the part where they dropped an XD from a plane in flight. The FBI trials had Glocks go past 50,000 rounds without any breakage and that was after a 40 foot drop from a chopper onto pavement. They even dragged one down the road on a rope for a mile and it still ran w/o fail. Nice try Crash but no cigar. I stand by my original post. :) There will be no show tonight folks.

crashdive123
12-30-2009, 08:46 PM
Hey if you want to back out on your challenge, that's up to you.

Pal334
12-30-2009, 08:50 PM
Glock: Do you have a site or source for :" The FBI trials had Glocks go past 50,000 rounds without any breakage and that was after a 400 foot drop from a chopper onto pavement. "

I would enjoy reading about their test criteria.

Rick
12-30-2009, 08:51 PM
I've got the camera ready. Just sayin'.....

glockcop
12-30-2009, 08:52 PM
Hey if you want to back out on your challenge, that's up to you.

The challenge has yet to be matched, my friend. The XD has not been through what Glock has period. NUFF SAID. No a$$ kissing happening on this one. Take care, Brother.

glockcop
12-30-2009, 08:54 PM
Glock: Do you have a site or source for :" The FBI trials had Glocks go past 50,000 rounds without any breakage and that was after a 400 foot drop from a chopper onto pavement. "

I would enjoy reading about their test criteria.

Sorry Pal. The 400 foot thing was a typo. I meant 40 foot. I have edited appropriately. No I don't have a source for ya but it is what I remember from a Fed Instructor I spoke with after their testing. I do have a Glock Annual (mag) that has the criteria for the FBI and the results. It was impressive to say the least. Best.

2dumb2kwit
12-30-2009, 08:55 PM
Aw man, this thing is going nowhere.

This one was dropped from 3' higher....

That one had three less grains of sand, in the mag...

I'm going back to the cat thread.:sneaky2:

Pal334
12-30-2009, 08:55 PM
Sorry Pal. The 400 foot thing was a typo. I meant 40 foot. I have edited appropriately. No I don't have a source for ya but it is what I remember from a Fed Instructor I spoke with after their testing.

No problems,

crashdive123
12-30-2009, 08:57 PM
Yep. NUFF SAID.

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/birds/birds_171.gif

2dumb2kwit
12-30-2009, 08:59 PM
Sorry Pal. The 400 foot thing was a typo. I meant 40 foot. I have edited appropriately. No I don't have a source for ya but it is what I remember from a Fed Instructor I spoke with after their testing.

LOL, I'm sure nothing gets streched, when two glock-jocks start with the "My test story, is better than your's". I'm sure the Fed, has to out do the local boys! LOL:blushing:

glockcop
12-30-2009, 08:59 PM
Yep. NUFF SAID.

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/birds/birds_171.gif

I'm unclear just what it is you want. Did you not understand my previous posts? Maybe you should reread. Thanks.

Pal334
12-30-2009, 09:29 PM
I did a google search, looking for the FBI testing criteria that they used when selecting the Glock and could find nothing. I found folk tale references, but no data. But I did find some interesting Glock facts though. I will share them for the forum to allow informed decsions;

Additionally, since FBI HRT (the Bureau's best trained people, who are issued Les Baer double-stack .45's) and special agents assigned to the field (their least-trained personnel, issued mostly double-stack Glock 22/23's and double-stack SIG P226's) http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm

Currently, the official issue sidearm for HRT operators is the Springfield Armory TRP-PRO in .45 ACP. It is also known as the "Bureau Model". http://www.swatdigest.com/archives/swmag_apr_hrtpart2.html

Most curious what their most experienced and trained folks choose

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/problems.html 6 March 2004

Provided for information purposes

glockcop
12-30-2009, 10:03 PM
I did a google search, looking for the FBI testing criteria that they used when selecting the Glock and could find nothing. I found folk tale references, but no data. But I did find some interesting Glock facts though. I will share them for the forum to allow informed decsions;

Additionally, since FBI HRT (the Bureau's best trained people, who are issued Les Baer double-stack .45's) and special agents assigned to the field (their least-trained personnel, issued mostly double-stack Glock 22/23's and double-stack SIG P226's) http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm

Currently, the official issue sidearm for HRT operators is the Springfield Armory TRP-PRO in .45 ACP. It is also known as the "Bureau Model". http://www.swatdigest.com/archives/swmag_apr_hrtpart2.html

Most curious what their most experienced and trained folks choose

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/problems.html 6 March 2004

Provided for information purposes

Old news and has been addressed YEARS ago. There was a recall on a run due to the rear rail being formed improperly before the molding process. We can get into 1911 probs all day long. Too much to go into. No body "in the know" and has handled both seriously believes that a 1911 is as durable and trouble free as a Glock. The FBI "special teams" carry a 1911 because it all goes back to them not wanting to carry what the "regular" guys carry and want to have a seperation of distinction. Sort of like the police chief "has to have" a gold badge over the silver badge that the worker cops carry. I see what road you are tempting me down but I'm not up for a trip to Fantasy Land. Just leave it at you like your old 1911 better than Glock no matter what overwhelming info is presented to you to the contrary. If I get time I will dig out that Glock Annual and give some of the FBI test criteria. You too will be impressed. By the way the guy that wrote that article from the Gun Zone is a well known Glock hater and bashes them over any small criticism he can find. If he hated 1911's as much as he dislikes Glocks he would not have to look too far for article material. I really don't feel like getting into a "Big To Do" on this subject but I will leave yall with the fact that I know Glock to be the most trouble free, durable, and reliable design ever conceived in an auto pistol. Yall carry what ya want and practice often. As a side note, there are way more Glocks in the holsters of SWAT and HRT guys nation wide than 1911's. You know how I know? It is my bread and butter. I train alot of those guys. Best.

PS Google Chuck Taylor's Glock torture for a good and impressive read.

Boker
12-30-2009, 11:22 PM
OK, I started this and I'll be man enough to settle it. Mr. Glockcop send me a Glock. Mr. Pal send me a 1911. I will conduct a complete and impartial long term test. I promise to be as through as possible and will let you know my findings in 5 - 10 years.


Remember gentlemen, this will be in the interest of science.

glockcop
12-31-2009, 01:26 AM
The Glock was chosen by the FBI in a full and open competition after exhaustive testing which included abuse testing, parts interchangability, exposure testing, obstructed bore testing, and field suitability eval. FBI Glock pistol testing criteria from 1998 "Glock Annual" is as follows:
1) No grip or mag safety was specified
2) Fireing pin and disconnector safety specified (aka no 1911's)
3) Slide must retract with no more than 21 pounds of force
4) No slip surface on front and back strap of grip
5) Non reflective surface devoid of sharp edges
6) Minimum service life of 10,000 rounds including barrel and mags

Testing:
1) Three pistols completely stripped and all parts swapped at random and all lubrication removed
2) -20 gegree temp chill down with immediate fireing upon removal
3) Cooked in oven at 120 gegrees for one hour and fired
4) Concrete floor drop test twice on each pistol on all sides from 4 ft. fire 20 rounds
5) "Frizbee" test from 4 ft. to 15 ft on each pistol then fire 20 rounds
6) Salt water submersion test then fire 20 rounds
7) Sand test with mixture of road sand and fine play box sand then fire 20
rounds
8) Lodge bullet in barrel one inch from muzzle then fired 5 rounds w/o
malfuction

After 10,000 rounds fired through each of four test guns an additional 10,000 rounds were fired through each gun to see if breakage could be forced. After a total of 120,000 rounds were fired through the four test guns not a single ammunition stoppage of any kind was reported.

Sorry Springfield Armory XD....Not even close. (Crash, take note)

Another side note is when the US Military first adopted the 1911 .45 it only had to have a 6,000 round service life and have a mean failure rate of one in every 250 rounds. Several did not pass the testing at all. The Sig and Beretta that replaced the 1911 was not given such lax criteria and had to go a minimum of 10,000 rounds w/o major parts failure and had to meet a one in 500 mean failure rate which Sig and Beretta handily exeeded without any problems. In fact they passed that requirement by nearly five fold. And to think the 1911 was used as a baseline for this testing is an insult to modern firearms design. Hell, the 1911 could not have gotten past the parts swapping portion of the FBI evaluation nor the removal of lubrication.

It should further be noted that the DEA also tested many pistol options in a full and open evaluation and also chose Glock to be added to their approved list.

Yall should really check out Chuck Taylor's on going testing and abuse of his Glock 17. Talk about impressive results. Like I said, last I checked a few years ago he was in excess of 900,000 rounds through that single Glock 17 pistol w/o a major parts breakage. I believe at that point he had only experienced about 3 or 4 malfunctions from bad loads and hard primers. That my friends is alot more mean rounds between malfunctions than the meager 250 specified for the 1911. It still amazes me to think that 36 plus countries field the Glock pistol today in a military and police capacity. Just maybe they know something about fighting and fighting tools :)? Last I checked exactly "0" nations general issue the tired and ageing 1911 and for good reason. That reason being,...we have better weapons today. The 1911 only exist today because of mythical stories and sentimental value. It rides on the coat tail of it's legendary chambering (.45 acp) not it's design or operation. Truth be told the US is the only country to have a real love affair with the 1911. It was never very popular worldwide. And to think, even our own military, the 1911's biggest champion, has abandoned it is a testiment to it's dated appeal and lack of military utility. Bottom line is, "It ain't no Glock".


A man decides his fate with his equipment. I choose Glock!!

Pal334
12-31-2009, 06:27 AM
"The FBI "special teams" carry a 1911 because it all goes back to them not wanting to carry what the "regular" guys carry and want to have a seperation of distinction." Hardly a good arguement , no LE or security professional would make such a critical decision based on that childish criteria.

"It should further be noted that the DEA also tested many pistol options in a full and open evaluation and also chose Glock to be added to their approved list." Not a sales point to me. In my many years of professional associations, the only other LE / Security organization (not individuals) less professional is the TSA.

"And to think, even our own military, the 1911's biggest champion, has abandoned it is a testiment to it's dated appeal and lack of military utility." I harken back to the fact that special military units that have a choice , choose the 1911 or a derivative.

A man decides his fate with his equipment. And the professionals have made the choice, 1911 (or derivative)

"Bottom line is, "It ain't no Glock"." In my humble opinion, thank goodness . :)

And as usual, we will agree to disagree. No harm no foul, has been a good "mental wrestling" exercise for us both. Wouldn't life be boring if we lived in a "cookie cutter" world where we agreed on everything? Have a great day

Pal334
12-31-2009, 08:22 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911_pistol

Current users
Military and law enforcement organizations in the United States and other countries continue to use (often modified) M1911A1 pistols including Marine Force Recon, Los Angeles Police Department S.W.A.T. and L.A.P.D. S.I.S., the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, F.B.I. regional S.W.A.T. teams, and 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment—Delta (Delta Force). The Tacoma, Washington Police Department selected the Kimber Pro Carry II or Pro Carry II HD as optional, department supplied weapons available to its officers.

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=656

Despite the adoption of the M9, many special operations units continue to use the venerable M1911A1 in modified form. The reason for this is the same as that which originally caused the adoption of the M1911—the M9’s 9mm cartridge simply isn’t a very good “people stopper.” There recently have been disturbing reports from Afghanistan and Iraq regarding the propensity of the M9 pistol to become clogged with sand and jam. The M1911 has no such problems.

Elite Marine Corps special operations units use M1911s built largely from Springfield Armory components. A recent photo from Iraq shows a special operations Marine holding his MEU-SOC (Marine Expeditionary Unit-Special Operations Capable) .45 on Iraqi prisoners with a Springfield Armory logo clearly visible on the slide. Every U.S. military special operations organization continues to employ the venerable M1911, many of them Springfield Armory pistols. The FBI uses Springfield Armory M1911A1 pistols almost exclusively, as does the U.S. Marshals Special Operations Group.

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_ArmyPistol.htm

Then, we flash forward to the M 9. The M 9 is a triumph of the technical over the tactical compared to the 1911. The Beretta is easy to shoot well. It kicks but little and is usually accurate. But Jeff Cooper wrote he would rather have a hatchet than a 9mm at intimate range. Even when loaded with expanding ammunition, which the military cannot use, the 9mm has not proven to give consistent, reliable results. The instances in my files that include full metal jacketed 9mm loads are particularly dismal. I have one case in my files in which a female victim took eight rounds before succumbing to a ninth shot through the eye socket. I have a 9mm pucker in my leg and a ragged scar on my face left by an individual who absorbed three 9mm soft point rounds. Adequate for battle? Hardly. (The 9mm man will always say, ‘You used the wrong load. Why, the FILL IN THE BLANK will get the job done.’ They never seem willing to admit the caliber was the problem.)


"]Jeff Cooper[/COLOR] wrote he would rather have a hatchet than a 9mm at intimate range. If my personal experience did not support my position, Mr. Coopers does

2dumb2kwit
12-31-2009, 10:24 AM
Not meaning to throw this thread off topic,:innocent:, but using the glock arguments, why does our military, swat teams, etc., use AR-15's and not AK-47's? Won't an AK function after abuse that would stop an AR?:innocent:

Just sayin'.

glockcop
12-31-2009, 12:04 PM
Pal, you backed my point superbly with your reference to the military's dislike for 9mm full metal jacket ammo and the 1911 riding on the legend of the .45. With modern hollow point ammo the 9 is fine. You apparently have not been in many city morgues or worked many shootings if you think to the contrary. My point of the .45 chambering souly keeping the antique 1911 alive was well established by your arguments. Thanks. "Childish criteria" for selecting a weapon? You evidently have not been involved in many weapon selection processes. I personally have been very instumental in the ''approved list" for several agencies in the state. Yes, it happens like that plenty for your info. The "elite" guys don't want to carry what the average joes carry. It is a fact of life. Your bad personal experience with the 9 does not make the rule. Only a rule for you. Also there are plenty of cases of the .45 full metal jacket not getting it done either. Caliber aside, full metal jacket ammo sucks as a stopper. Any caliber in hollow point works light years better than FMJ. Lets get back on topic now and leave the caliber debate where it belongs, up to the individual. The 9 FMJ and .45 FMJ are pretty pathetic at stopping bad guys truth be told. The solution to anyone wanting the best combat pistol and a historically adequate round is a Glock .45. And weither you want to admit it or not there are ALOT more Glocks and SIGs in SWAT and HRT holsters than 1911's. FACT! I remember a conversation with a "Delta" guy in the sand box that was approached by a grunt after the grunt saw his 1911. The grunt asked how do you like your 1911. The "Delta" guy said "It's ok but I'd rather have a Glock...Get one if you can son". This was told to me by this "Delta" guy who will remain nameless. He said plenty special ops were forced with the 1911, because nothing else was available at the time, when they really wanted to get their hands on a Glock. He said "The Glocks work better in sand and dirt". That I know to be true. He also went on to say that heavy sand contamination causes the 1911 mags to be very difficult to remove from the weapon and causes grip safeties to stick. "Crunchy" triggers were also caused by the sand inside a 1911. He said, "That sh*t doesn't happen with a Glock". I replied, "I know, aren't Glocks great". His reponse, "F-ing A". He has since gotten a Glock for use in harms way. That is from the horses mouth. And as for Jeff Cooper,...He was an antique himself that lived well past his experation date IMO. Never did take him too seriously in his older years with his oddball scout gun and elephant rifle stuff.

Where in the world did you find the 9mm "soft point" ammo that failed you so miserably? There was very little of that stuff ever made in the begining of the wonder 9 years. It was short lived due to it not offering much more than FMJ performance. It was a novel idea that only worked in theory for combat. It does work in magnum handguns though. Another fact of life is that the 9mm is as good as anything else out there. Why is it the most prolific handgun load in the world if it was a failure? Mankind is very good at destroying things and we do not keep using things that do not give the desired effect. That is why we don't use spears anymore. 45 FMJ is just as bad as 9mm FMJ. If you do not have any .45 FMJ failures in your "files" then your "files" must be pretty scant to say the least. If you need some I've got plenty of police reports for ya. I've seen a pit bull soak up 8 .45 hollow points and still "rip" an officer. One of those .45's actually stopped against it's skull. I've seen gang bangers soak up .45 FMJ and hollow point to no effect. Same with the 9 and .40. They all are about the same in real life and those who think otherwise have not been in "real life" long enough or they are just slow learners, one of the two. So much for the "ultimate stopper" stuff. If a man can take a .308 to the chest (which I have seen) and still keep going, I doubt a .45 pistol would be much better. I wonder why you don't see any .45 acp in the deer woods but you see plenty .308. Nuff said on that topic.

One argument that cannot be trumped is the fact that more cops and soldiers carry the Beretta 92, Glock, and Sig than all brands of 1911 combined, period. Most times by choice. It is also funny to hear these "reports" of the Beretta "clogging" with dirt when in military testing the Beretta beat out the 1911 several times by a great ratio. Sounds like the 1911 ''sour grapes'' comming on full force. These guys just can't get past the fact that the 1911 was replaced by something better. Get over it already, will ya. And for those that claim the Beretta to be soooo bad, I ask : How did it win military testing three times by such a LARGE margin over the 1911? Why did the US military spend so much for a 1911 replacement? Because it works better and is a safer design. Sure politics play in every descision governmental but the Beretta won plain and simple with documentation to prove it. There are plenty of 1911 proponents in the upper brass of the military. If the results were manipulated for the Beretta to win would it not be just as feasible for the results to be manipulated for the 1911 to have won? If test result manipulation went one way it could have also gone the other way for a different outcome. That argument is officially closed. The 1911 is a fine weapon but there are better options available today no matter who want to face that fact or not. Go ahead and love your 1911 but realize it is not Thor's hammer that fells all foe. It is more of a ball peen and the Glock is a war club that won't stop no matter the conditions it faces. We again respectfully disagree. Take care, Brother.

glockcop
12-31-2009, 12:16 PM
Not meaning to throw this thread off topic,:innocent:, but using the glock arguments, why does our military, swat teams, etc., use AR-15's and not AK-47's? Won't an AK function after abuse that would stop an AR?:innocent:

Just sayin'.

An AR is a saber compared to an AK which is liken to a stone. Choose what suits you best. Sometimes you need a rock, sometimes you need a sword. I like AR's MUCH better. Back on topic again: "GLOCKS"

Pal334
12-31-2009, 04:43 PM
Glock,, I guess this quote says it all: "And as for Jeff Cooper,...He was an antique himself that lived well past his experation date IMO. "

Have a great day

glockcop
12-31-2009, 06:51 PM
Sorry Pal, unlike many, I could never bow down and pray at the alter of Jeff Cooper. I can see past my nose and know jibberish in any of the five languages he spoke. Some of his wrightings were novel and quaint but that is as far as I can go with him. His unwarranted arrogance and heirs was enough for 10 person's tall tales and children's stories. Not trying to smear his memory, just expressing my opinion of a man who conceived the abomination known as the "Bren Ten". Even he apparently saw the short commings of the 1911 and 45 acp full metal jackets but failed miserably in his attempt. Gaston's creation of the Glock 20 solved the Col's delema. Others hold J.C. in high regard and that is fine by me (no pun intended but he thought of himself highly). Sorry again. Now back to "Glocks".

Huntress
01-13-2010, 05:47 PM
I have to say I love my Glock model 23 40 cal. I haven't put it through anything like that but it's good to know it'll take a beating and keep on shooting!! :)

aflineman
01-13-2010, 06:00 PM
I have seen a Glock come off the roof of a patrol vehicle at over 70 on the freeway. It came apart (slide, mag, frame, sights), when all the parts were gathered up and reinstalled, it still worked. It was not pretty, but it worked. (Don't ask me why it was on the patrol vehicle, I was not there for that part).
That being said, they are a nice tool, but I prefer not to use one by personal preference. They just don't point right for me (yeah, I know train with one. I have). Would I feel undergunned or cheated it I was issued one, no. I ain't spending my hard earned money on one though. Again, not taking away from the weapon, just my preference. (I prefer a revolver).

klkak
01-13-2010, 06:48 PM
You just can't argue with perfection! Glock perfection that is!

I have a very old G-23.