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rwc1969
12-21-2009, 11:34 PM
How long should water be boiled to be considered safe to drink?

RangerXanatos
12-21-2009, 11:41 PM
You may get different answers for this, but many people agree that as once as it reaches boiling point, it should have killed almost all of the nasties.

Ken
12-21-2009, 11:41 PM
It's safe to drink the second it starts to boil - once it's cooled down, of course.

crashdive123
12-21-2009, 11:58 PM
Yep - anything longer than that is to either give you peace of mind, or consume your fuel unnecessarily.

hoosierarcher
12-22-2009, 12:34 AM
Exactly right the second it has reached rapid boil it is sterile.

rwc1969
12-22-2009, 01:13 AM
That's hilarious! I always thought and was told it was 5-10 minutes. Even the advisories we get for city water say 5-10. But, I saw Cody Lundin in a vid and he said exactly what you folks are saying. Learn something new every day.

Thanks for the help.

hammer24
12-22-2009, 02:46 AM
The book answer for this is, at sea level bring to a rolling boil for 1 min. at altitudes of 6500 ft or higher rolling boil for 3 min.

Rick
12-22-2009, 06:24 AM
For water to boil it has to reach 212 F (at sea level), which is above the temp water critters that make you sick can survive at.

Here is what Princeton University says, "Boiling is the most certain way of killing all microorganisms. According to the Wilderness Medical Society, water temperatures above 160 F (70 C) kill all pathogens within 30 minutes and above 185 F (85 C) within a few minutes. So in the time it takes for the water to reach the boiling point (212 F or 100 C) from 160 F (70 C), all pathogens will be killed, even at high altitude. To be extra safe, let the water boil rapidly for one minute, especially at higher altitudes since water boils at a lower temperature".

Source: http://www.princeton.edu/~oa/manual/water.shtml

NightShade
12-22-2009, 06:40 AM
The time it takes...... That varies depending on the btu output of your heating source... If it takes a few mins. At 185 and you have a high but output heat source it could possibly reach boiling BEFORE all pathogens are killed.

At sea level... 3 mins. boiling WILL kill all pathogens..
For each 1000 feet elevation add 1 min.
Boiling for 10 mins. At any elevation will sterilize water

This will NOT make chemically contaminated water safe, in fact some chemicals will become more concentred.

Rick
12-22-2009, 06:45 AM
That's part of the misconception. If you bring water to a boil and look at the nasties under a microscope, they have little X's for eyes. They are already dead.

Rick
12-22-2009, 06:56 AM
Ten minutes have passed and no rebuttal? This is no fun at all........

NightShade
12-22-2009, 07:08 AM
Sorry rick... Typing on the blackberry..... Slow goin....
I still say the misconception is the time it takes to reach boiling from 160 is long enough...
While true most of the time, with a high enough btu output you could raise the temp. To boiling before the nasties have enough time to write their wills.

Yea I know its an unlikely "technicality" scenario.... But still it is possible.. A variable worth keeping in mind...
Either way I let mine boil a few mins..... Hey, what's 3 mins... Even if only piece of mind...

your_comforting_company
12-22-2009, 07:08 AM
That is a good point nightshade. Condensing water that contains low levels of chemical contaminants only makes the contamination stronger.

Thats how I get bark liquors of increasing strengths and you certainly don't want to drink that.. unless you really like being dead.

You need to know that your source for water isn't contaminated with heavy metals / caustic materials BEFORE boiling. personally, I'd rather drink a little algae than a lot of mercury.

Do your homework on your camp / bug out area to make sure beforehand.

Canadian-guerilla
12-22-2009, 07:46 AM
i've been doing a little re/search on SOLAR WATER PASTEURIZATION (http://solarcookers.org/basics/water.html)

i'll be trying this out next summer when i'm on one of my wild edible walkabouts

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/solarcooking/images/b/bf/Food_safety_thermometer.gif http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/4713191/MainSolarCooker-main_Full.jpg

Canadian-guerilla
12-22-2009, 07:50 AM
Solar Kettle-Thermos Flask (http://www.freewebs.com/solarwyse/set.htm)


http://www.freewebs.com/solarwyse/Image7.jpg

Mtnman Mike
12-23-2009, 05:23 AM
I have always boiled water when camping, for at least ten minutes. But i almost always camp above 9,000 feet. My mtn survival retreat is at 9,500 feet about 1/2 a mile east of the Continental Divide.

I have made water safe to drink by filtering it thru a cloth then boiling it for ten minutes. But the last ten years I have had a Katadyn drip filter and just this past May I bought at a garage sale, a Big Berkey water filter for only ten bucks. Brand new with 4 ceramic filters. I used it twice a day everyday from June to Nov.

RobertRogers
12-23-2009, 07:03 AM
Nope. Even on the summit of Mt Everest, once the water has reached the boiling point it has destroyed all pathogens. The boiling point is well beyond the needed temp even at that altitude.


You can boil it longer if you want to, but you are just wasting fuel.

Pict
12-23-2009, 07:29 AM
I'm going to throw a +1 onto the "bring it to a rolling boil" side of this. I have seen older literature that recommended a 30 minute boiling time. You can stew a chicken in 30 minutes of boiling. An egg will cook solid with seven minutes at a rolling boil. How long does it take to entirely cook a micro-organism of a few microns in diameter? Are the proteins they are made up of somehow more resistant to cooking than other mere mortal proteins? If you boil them too long they lose all their flavor. Mac

Rick
12-23-2009, 08:04 AM
If you boil them too long they lose all their flavor.

Now that right there is funny I don't care who you are. God bless those little pygmies down in Brazil......I mean New Guinea.

2dumb2kwit
12-23-2009, 03:23 PM
How long should water be boiled to be considered safe to drink?

Hey, wait! This is one of those "trick" question's.....ain't it!

It's not safe, to drink boiling water, no matter how long it's been boiling!:innocent:

Rick
12-23-2009, 04:31 PM
Okay, 2D, follow me on this. You got your water and you got your fire...........

2dumb2kwit
12-23-2009, 05:17 PM
Okay, 2D, follow me on this. You got your water and you got your fire...........

Tell the story, any way you want.........If you drink boiling water, there is a real good chance, that you're gettin' burnt! (or burned.....whichever.):sneaky2:

rwc1969
12-24-2009, 04:05 PM
The reminder it gives me is to pre filter water thru a shirt or the like, then filter thru an expensive and realistically short lived filter to remove chemicals and then boil it. No other method seems 100% safe.

around here the risk of chemical polutants is probably worse than anything else so unless you have a filter that can remove chemicals it's a useless venture.

Someone needs to come up with a primitive method to remove chemicals from water. Or have they?

Batch
12-24-2009, 04:22 PM
I am sure some scientist has come up with a chemical to remove chemicals from water. LOL

I was wondering of ways that we can test various chemical and biological levels in water we have filtered. Anyone know of any?

Rick
12-24-2009, 04:27 PM
I'm not aware of anything that would be field expedient or that you could use at home. Of course, if it glows......

Batch
12-24-2009, 04:39 PM
I kind of figured something for home use. A microscope so you could look at the little XXs over the eyes of the nasties. Maybe some type of chemical reaction type test to check for the most common harmful chemicals.

rwc1969
12-28-2009, 10:50 AM
A scope would work for the nasties if it was high enough power, maybe
1000X??

As far as the chemicals maybe take to the local county extension, water treatment plant or the like. I know there's a place, or used to be, around here that will test water samples for free if you're a resident, but have never looked into it. Another place will do it for 100 bucks or so.

What I'd like to do is get a sample of untreated vs. a sample of primitively treated vs. high tech treatment and see what the difference is. But, that'd cost me 300-400 bucks.

Rick
12-28-2009, 10:53 AM
It might not. You could always contact one of the larger manufacturers like Katadyn or MSR and ask them for that information. I'm sure they have it as part of their testing. On the other hand, the worst they can say is they don't have it.

crashdive123
12-28-2009, 07:02 PM
It might not. You could always contact one of the larger manufacturers like Katadyn or MSR and ask them for that information. I'm sure they have it as part of their testing. On the other hand, the worst they can say is they don't have it.

What? They're climatologists too?

Winnie
12-28-2009, 07:18 PM
I kind of figured something for home use. A microscope so you could look at the little XXs over the eyes of the nasties. Maybe some type of chemical reaction type test to check for the most common harmful chemicals.

Some specialist aqauatic shops sell kits for testing for various things, not sure what though.

Just found this as well.

http://heavymetalstest.com/

Microscopy is probably the only way to determine anything small and living. The other way is to culture a sample on a growth media, but this would take a few days, and you'd still need a microscope to identify the little blighters.

RangerXanatos
12-28-2009, 08:00 PM
Some specialist aqauatic shops sell kits for testing for various things, not sure what though.

Just found this as well.

http://heavymetalstest.com/

Microscopy is probably the only way to determine anything small and living. The other way is to culture a sample on a growth media, but this would take a few days, and you'd still need a microscope to identify the little blighters.

There's other ways to determine anything living in water or other liquids such as flow cytometry. It basically passes such a small stream so that only one cell passes through a counter and some can even differentiate based on cell size. That alone can give some information about what kind of bacteria you are dealing with. Then like stated above, you could grow them on media and pass the cells through certain tests to determine the actual kind of bacteria in the water. The flow cytometry takes only a matter of minutes to run a sample completely through while the media growth route can take days.

Nativedude
12-29-2009, 06:06 PM
sjj wrote: "What exactly does bring to a boil mean? Brought to a boil and brought to a roaring boil are different things to some people. I error on the side of bringing to a "roaring" boil or a little extra time at a sizzle boil if you know what I mean."

SJJ, just for clarification it is "rolling boil", not roaring boil. What rolling boil means is: that you bring the water to a boil where it is rolling on the surface. First you see small bubbles, as they get bigger they begin to roll on the surface of the water.

For 30+ years I have been bringing my water to a rolling boil, from altitudes of -300 ft. to +12,000 ft (below and above sea level), and I've never had any ill-effects, nor have any of my students.

If you boil beyond a rolling boil you are wasting precious water through steam evaporation, especially when the temp. drops below 0 degrees.

In the winter, I boil a small amount of snow, as a smaller amount will boil faster. As it continues to boil, I add small amounts until I have a full container at a rolling boil.

TomChemEngineer
12-30-2009, 11:47 AM
I've never boiled water to make it safe.
I just use a couple of drops of regular/ unscented Clorox Liquid Bleach in a liter of water and let it sit for several minutes (30 minutes is recommended) to kill the little fellas. If there are suspended solids, either strain the water or just add a little more Clorox Liquid Bleach and tough out the grit. Charcoal filters can remove the remaining residual chlorine if I worry about it, which I don't. Charcoal filters will also remove most other low-level chemical contaminants too... the reason why aquarium filters use charcoal filters. Not that I recommend aquarium filters for water purification, but you get the idea.
I just find that carrying a little bottle of Clorox Bleach is better than using up a boatload of fuel, but maybe one day I will be taught a lesson and come down with some sort of water-borne unpleasantness. I hope not.

nell67
12-30-2009, 12:03 PM
A scope would work for the nasties if it was high enough power, maybe
1000X??

As far as the chemicals maybe take to the local county extension, water treatment plant or the like. I know there's a place, or used to be, around here that will test water samples for free if you're a resident, but have never looked into it. Another place will do it for 100 bucks or so.

What I'd like to do is get a sample of untreated vs. a sample of primitively treated vs. high tech treatment and see what the difference is. But, that'd cost me 300-400 bucks.

Why not ask your local high school chemistry teacher to analize the samples for you??? May take a little longer but would be a great class experiment for them.

rwc1969
12-30-2009, 07:25 PM
That's a good idea nell. i could check with the college too. Thanks!

hunter63
12-30-2009, 07:37 PM
Passer by: "What'ca doin'" ?
Me: "boiling water".
P.B.: "looks like it's boiling to me".
Me: "Nope, not done yet".
P.B.: "Why"?
Me: "Read it on the 'net, gotta roar first, an' the little bad guys, gotta have X's in their eyes".
P.B. "Oh, O.K., jus' don' drink it when it's hot".

So what exactly did we decide?

Rick
12-30-2009, 08:43 PM
I think you summed it up very nicely.

neondog
01-01-2010, 12:30 AM
i've been doing a little re/search on SOLAR WATER PASTEURIZATION (http://solarcookers.org/basics/water.html)

i'll be trying this out next summer when i'm on one of my wild edible walkabouts

For maximum temperatures, The dish reflector should be parabolic like a satellite dish with the pan suspended where you would expect to see the satellite dish's pickup. If you can't find anything stout enough to hold the pot up there just put a perch in it's place and have some "blackened bird!" :tongue_smilie:

Batch
01-02-2010, 09:01 AM
I've never boiled water to make it safe.
I just use a couple of drops of regular/ unscented Clorox Liquid Bleach in a liter of water and let it sit for several minutes (30 minutes is recommended) to kill the little fellas. If there are suspended solids, either strain the water or just add a little more Clorox Liquid Bleach and tough out the grit. Charcoal filters can remove the remaining residual chlorine if I worry about it, which I don't. Charcoal filters will also remove most other low-level chemical contaminants too... the reason why aquarium filters use charcoal filters. Not that I recommend aquarium filters for water purification, but you get the idea.
I just find that carrying a little bottle of Clorox Bleach is better than using up a boatload of fuel, but maybe one day I will be taught a lesson and come down with some sort of water-borne unpleasantness. I hope not.

So powdered bleach is good for this?

Also, when I watched Pict's video where he made the PVC water filter. I wondered if there was a reason he didn't kill the little buggers and then filter the water. Is there any reason you would do it in a certain order? Like fear of chemical build up.

If you were stripped of all gear, what could you use as a vessel to boil water in. I was asked this and thought maybe a large leaf. But, the leaf would have to be edible or it may leach something harmful into the water. I also thought of coconut shell, indian squash, or wild citrus. I have cooked eggs in orange peels set right in the coals of the fire. I have also used coconut shell in a fire as a fuel. But, I would think that the water would keep the shell from rising to a temp where it would burn.

Rick
01-02-2010, 10:33 AM
Personally, I would not use powdered bleach because of possible additives. You need pure bleach. You can pick up liquid sodium hypochlorite from most pool supply stores for about $6 a gallon or less. Just store it away from sunlight. I use it in my fountain to keep down algae and deal with bird poo and it does a great job. But sunlight does break it down.

The EPA recommends the use of 2 drops of 5%ac household bleach per litre of water. If the treated water doesn't smell of bleach, 2 more drops are to be added. Remember that turbidity and other variables will impact the amount you have to use.

As to your question on a vessel to boil water in, just about anything is usable. A rock depression, a hollow log, a turtle shell. Anything that will hold water. Build a fire, add rocks (be careful they don't explode) and fill the depression with water. Once the rocks are hot, use a couple of sticks to move the rocks to the water. The hot rocks should easily boil the water.

Canadian-guerilla
01-02-2010, 10:42 AM
For maximum temperatures, The dish reflector should be parabolic like a satellite dish with the pan suspended where you would expect to see the satellite dish's pickup. If you can't find anything stout enough to hold the pot up there just put a perch in it's place and have some "blackened bird!" :tongue_smilie:


i don't want to take too much stuff out with me just to boil water

i'll probably take a front dashboard sun relector thingy with me
a black pot ( with lid ), thermometer, and a bag to put the pot in

this won't be just a one day experiment, maybe 5-7 days, trying different reflector configurations/materials

rwc1969
01-02-2010, 02:02 PM
This thread was started with the intent that a person had means of fire and a container to boil water in. It has brought up lots of questions about water purification in my mind and maybe in others as well. This is what I've concluded after reseaching this subject exhaustively. I'm no expert, but my sources are varied and I only post what in my mind seems logical based on my experience. I base this on several years experience in the commercial water treatment industry, my experience over the past 30 years with aquariums and filtration thereof, my all around paranoia of drinking even city and well water, and lots of bookworm, internet, college, high school and such research over the past how many years.


The only fast term thing that is 100% effective at killing virues, bacteria, and parasites is boiling.

The problem with chemical treatments, such as bleach and iodine, is they aren't very effective if the water is cold, which, where I live is almost always the case. Even in a desert stream water can be 40 degrees or so. The water needs to be over 50 and preferably over 60 degrees farenheit for chemicals like bleach and iodine to be effective. Even then they are not 100% effective. The warmer the water is the more effective chemical treatments are. Also, you must pre-filter the water well or the bad stuff can live in the sediment. You have to follow the instructions carefully or forget about it. 2-4 drops per litre based on turbidity for 30 minutes. if the water doesn't smell like bleach after that time you must re-treat it again. Even if the water smells/ tastes like bleach or iodine it doesn't mean it's 100% safe. In fact, there's no way to tell, becuase every situation is different. i.e. cloudiness of water, temp of water, amount of contams all vary. I would only rely on chemical treatment if boiling was not an option, and only in a true survival situation.

Storebought filters and purifiers work to an extent, but if you are out in freezing temps they can freeze and/ or leak contams into the water. Also, unless you prefilter the water they will fail almost immediately. Even then, you have no way of knowing how long the filter will last and whether or not it's effective to begin with. A filter will not remove viruses. The biggest problem with filters and purifiers is improper use leading to contamination and failure to replace used up cartridges, etc. I wouldn't feel comfortable using one, but if it's all you got go for it. I would only use it in a true survival situation.

Homeade filters in the field using grass, sand and such are only going to be as effective as the grass and sand that you are using to filter the water with. If the grass and sand are contaminated then you are just adding to the already nasty water. Anyone who has proclaimed success using these types of filters would have most likely faired better by drinking the water straight from the source. they say to let the water run clear beore using. Well, heads up, you can't see the nasties. Dirt and sand won't kill you, it's the other unseen stuff you have to worry about. I hear Sphagnum moss is an excellent filter media as it actually contains iodine and has anti-bacteral properties. There are a few other mosses/ lichens that have this same quality. Not all do though. I wouldn't trust it.

I think the big misconception with treating water with these "natural" methods is this. Our ground water/ well water is typically safe to drink and the only thing filtering it is the ground and time. Time being the biggest factor. It takes hundreds of years for surface water to leach into our groundwater. It travels through tons of filter media. It sits stagnant in swamps for hundreds of years before travelling down thru millions of tons of sediment. It sees great fluctuations in temperature and pressure. You can't imitate nature in this way. The whip it out wilderness filters and homeade filters filter the water quickly thru a small amount of media. You can't achieve what nature does with a 2-litre bottle, rolled up piece of birchbark, handful of sand and a few crunched up leaves or grasses. I trust these homeade and natural filters least of all. If I were going to use them I would boil all the materails first. But then I might as well just boil my water, eh? I suppose if you sterilized the materials and had a large 5-50 gallon container to hold filter media it would be a viable long term alternative to boiling and would save on fuel. But, the water would have to take many hours or days to filter thru the media or it would be ineffective. If the water just runs straight thru with little resistance it isn't doing anything to treat the water.

Distilling water is relativley effective, especially if urine or saltwater are your only source. It is not 100% effective though, contrary to wide belief. The problem with distilling is the amount of time it takes for such a small amount of drinkable water. Also, distilling requires materials to work with like a plastic sheet, tubing, large semi-airtight container,heat source, etc. If I had the materials and saltwater or urine were my only source of water, or I had no way to make fire, I would rely on distillation as a source of drinkable water in a survival situation.

Boiling is the only 100% safe way to disinfect water. It works at any temperature and in any environment. The only materials required are a semi-watertight vessel and a heat source. The only thing you have to worry about after boiling is pollution from chemicals. They can be removed, or at least reduced, by soaking boiled, then rinsed and dried charcoal from the fire in the pre-boiled water overnight. Based on my limited research you need about 100 grams of charcoal per litre of water, or 4 ounces per quart roughly, and it should sit for 15 hours minimum.

There are many ways to make a vessel. A hole in the ground semi-sealed with plastic or non toxic leaves. A log dug and burned out into a rough bowl or pot. Birchbark folded into a container shapebowl. this goes beyond the scope of this thread though, and more research would be recommended as to what types of wood, plants, rocks are poisonous as many are.

but, an easy way to get large amounts of charcoal is to start a raging fire to produce lots of hot coals, add lots of fresh hardwood, and then completely cover with damp dead bark, leaves, grasses, etc. You can also cover it with snow. The heat from the fire will continue to burn the gasses and most toxins out of the fresh wood and you will end up with lots of charcoal and smoke in the process. A relatively small fire will produce a huge amount of charcoal. But it takes well over an hour or more depending on how far you let it burn down. It could easily burn overnight.

Activated charcoal/ carbon works better, but don't be fooled by the videos you see. In order for any charcoal/ carbon to be very effective it must have prolonged contact with the water. Simply passing water thru a small activated charcoal filter will not remove many toxins. It's all about contact time and surface area. The greater the surface area of the charcoal and the longer you expose the water to it the better effect it will have.

If the charcoal is used up it will actually leach contaminants back into the filtered water, possibly at a much higher concentration. Many tests have been done on water that was treated with household filters, on tap, bottle, refrigerator, and under the sink varieties. Most showed that the small filters didn't remove many toxins and most filters weren't changed often enough which led to treated water with higher concentrations of toxins than the water that was coming fresh out of the tap. Supposedly, you can reuse charcoal several times by boiling for a few minutes and letting it dry out completely. I don't know if I trust this method. I'd just get/ make new charcoal. I would not worry about chemical filtration, i.e. charcoal, unless I were planning on consuming the water over periods of time more than a few days. Or, if I thought the source might be seriously contaminated. Charcoal doesn't remove all impurities, but it does remove a lot. I guess it's better than nothing.

Mythbusters did a show on purifying low end vodka. It took 6 passes thru a "britta" type water filter to remove enough toxins to even be close to high end vodka. High end vodka is vodka that has had most impurities removed.

I would trust boiling water with or without charcoal filtration over all other methods. I would feel safe using this method in a non-survival situation. In a true survival situation, if faced with dehydration, it's best to drink any water that's available with the exception of urine and salt water. Running water is best and if you avoid collecting the water that's on the surface you stand a better chance of drinking uncontaminated water.

Rick
01-02-2010, 02:15 PM
RWC - Very good post. I agree boiling is the safest method. The only thing I think I would disagree with is the effectiveness of commercial filters. Many, like MSR and Katadyn have a pre-filter built in as part of the intake tube so clogging a filter is not immediate.

The little bulb on the end is the pre-filter.

http://www.filtersfast.com/ProdImages/hiker-pro.jpg

And they do a far better job than natural peculation simply because of all the variables you mentioned. The porous filter screens out all the bad stuff, except viruses. I can pump 1.25 liters per minute through my MSR Sweetwater, which is quite a bit of water. And I know it's safe with the exception of viruses. And the activated charcoal helps with taste. In fact, short of boiling, it's the safest method available for back country travel. I've used it a LOT and have yet to get sick so I know it works.

hoosierarcher
01-06-2010, 12:46 AM
That's hilarious! I always thought and was told it was 5-10 minutes. Even the advisories we get for city water say 5-10. But, I saw Cody Lundin in a vid and he said exactly what you folks are saying. Learn something new every day.

Thanks for the help.
Those Public advisories have civil liability.So they over state it to protect themshelves.

canid
01-10-2010, 09:21 AM
I kind of figured something for home use. A microscope so you could look at the little XXs over the eyes of the nasties. Maybe some type of chemical reaction type test to check for the most common harmful chemicals.

a scope, and stains, most notably gram's stain, can give you useful information such as cell counts, in addition to some help in identifying the organisms being counted, but can not tell you if they are living or killed, unless the cells are badly ruptured or fragmented.

to detect live cells reliably, culture tests would be your best bet.

Rick-SAR
01-10-2010, 11:48 AM
Pasteurizing water to make it safe to drink by boiling.


You might look at this device that is used all over the world to pasteurize water:
http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/W...tion_Indicator and http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/Water_pasteurization. The second web site has a table to show what it kills when water is pasteurized.

I have one and it is only about 1" long x 1/4 in diameter" and can be used over and over again indefinitely - it cost me about $6.00 if I remember.

Since water pasteurizes at temperatures well below the boiling point of water, this device saves time and saves fuel when using traditional fuels. As you all know that saving fuel can be a major issue in the bush so why waste fuel if you don't have to.

The web site also shows how to make your own "Water Pasteurize Indicator".

If it is good enough to be used in under developed countries used by thousands to purify water is good enough for me.

Rick-SAR


(http://www.SearchAndRescueTraining.com)

rwc1969
01-10-2010, 10:01 PM
Very intersesting. Thank you.

I found another thread that talks about charcoal filtration and thought I'd link it up. There's a few links in here that have some good info. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2982

rwc1969
01-11-2010, 12:12 AM
I looked at the links about solar pasteurization and unless I missed something it appears they are not even boiling the water?? they're saying water only needs to be 149 F to kill all harmful organisms. That's way below boiling which is 212 F.

Rick
01-11-2010, 08:38 AM
That's probably true, RWC. I think milk is pasteurized around 160 F. The thing about pasteurizing is it doesn't kill pathogens. It slows their growth. That's why milk stills spoils.

canid
01-11-2010, 09:09 AM
pasteurization does a couple of things, and the first is that it does kill live pathogens of most species.

what it does not do is kill endospores. this is why there is a latency period of up to a couple weeks before refrigerated pasteurized foodstuffs begin to spoil noticeably. this is the period of recolonization.

the other thing it does not do is kill all organisms, such as thermophiles, many of which are harmless. this allows them to colonize the pasteurized substrate, such as milk, giving competition for any potential pathogens. this is why milk will so often curdle, from metabolic wastes [acids such as urea and lactic acid] of harmless organisms before any pathogens have reached significant numbers.

justin_baker
05-24-2010, 11:22 PM
I usually bring it to a light boil and a couple of minutes later it gets to a rolling boil and then its done.

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факу (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/856544)NX04 (http://gascautery.ru/t/1143409)Bist (http://gashbucket.ru/t/503767)Tesc (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1143706)Люси (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/686587)хоро (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1161095)крае (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1159420)R531 (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/925948)Orva (http://geartreating.ru/t/918766)Pete (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/847111)Берж (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/814025)Щеко (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/813686)Троя (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/853773)Rich (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/850825)Миха (http://getthebounce.ru/t/344560)
Worl (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1086829)Кожи (http://habituate.ru/t/1089538)Смир (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/676225)Refl (http://hackworker.ru/t/1109869)Pasc (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1101536)John (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1093556)Медв (http://hailsquall.ru/t/676464)авто (http://hairysphere.ru/t/812030)Mari (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/664356)XVII (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/848253)Blue (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/623987)Web- (http://haltstate.ru/t/811043)Крас (http://handcoding.ru/t/959563)Rose (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1031614)Slew (http://handradar.ru/t/628760)
Mast (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/787988)Каст (http://hangonpart.ru/t/832190)Omsa (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/566143)Sham (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/566482)Limo (http://hardasiron.ru/t/567654)Jewe (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/628938)Чарт (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/745229)Fisk (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/573844)Огор (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/672316)Jose (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/838441)Снеж (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/639078)XVII (http://headregulator.ru/t/1002141)Нейх (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1375745)Push (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/565784)Mari (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1187759)
Sela (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1181915)Sela (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/605799)Koff (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/608030)Зайц (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/671829)Worl (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/636058)SkyD (http://jobstress.ru/t/629760)Лопа (http://jogformation.ru/t/672076)Sisi (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1142357)Dima (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1147236)Melv (http://journallubricator.ru/t/905578)изда (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/917943)Vent (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1179824)Ador (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1181289)Herb (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1039581)Дмит (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1016725)
Шемш (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/834401)Zone (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/611392)бума (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1182541)(190 (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1015953)Zone (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/607992)Zone (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/610417)прак (http://keyserum.ru/t/1180349)Gabr (http://kickplate.ru/t/781156)Fore (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/882238)авто (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/671286)Пушк (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/762875)само (http://kinozones.ru/film/7530)Топо (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/672313)Дани (http://kneejoint.ru/t/674018)Jerr (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1073659)
Zone (http://knockonatom.ru/t/609101)Кроп (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/676182)Herm (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/771716)Zone (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1193875)Миро (http://laborracket.ru/t/882047)Мака (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1242477)Neil (http://labourleasing.ru/t/912180)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1190044)Zone (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1188295)Zone (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1187479)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1186290)чист (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1183767)Леси (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/857472)1964 (http://laggingload.ru/t/1047950)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1191336)
Поло (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/866897)Шури (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1049320)служ (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1056867)Chet (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1184481)Сайт (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1049988)стра (http://lancingdie.ru/t/883463)Альб (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1001964)03-0 (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1184175)Zone (http://landreform.ru/t/1186369)diam (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1184689)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1190506)АГПо (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1159423)комп (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/151804)NTSC (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1587)сост (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/588623)

yellowcab
11-17-2025, 06:54 PM
Mart (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1031207)Teka (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451800)Прои (http://layabout.ru/shop/99398)Mika (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/16175)8998 (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/46857)Заро (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/95796)Befl (http://leaveword.ru/shop/135644)3969 (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/53533)Pola (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/95854)(05- (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/135589)Турц (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/46706)Anto (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/196271)Spee (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/135713)AVTO (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/159020)Jewe (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/612658)
Russ (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/153714)поле (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2690)Outs (http://mp3lists.ru/item/7002)Vali (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/141590)сили (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/101551)кист (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/182914)Hobb (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/145577)инст (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/11413)заря (http://navelseed.ru/shop/23960)Gamm (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/123035)Jewe (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/24465)фото (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/167418)игол (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/12415)Defe (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/106207)Oreg (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/10138)
Phil (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/97870)Disc (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/570481)Roya (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/571428)Лит* (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/147202)Долж (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/150825)Micr (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/30567)Hein (http://onesticket.ru/shop/75756)Raye (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/578581)Douz (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/585343)Hele (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/200561)Лит* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/203929)Тихо (http://papercoating.ru/shop/579745)Лит* (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/683920)1923 (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1165374)(кар (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1165417)
Иллю (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1048818)Гуще (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1167175)Каза (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/153906)*ома (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/152762)Heis (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/506309)Воро (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/477712)Kiss (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/124148)Стан (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1046464)акад (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/109221)Disn (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/68191)Bogd (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/321863)Феде (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/477265)прим (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/557139)Exce (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/125509)Анон (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/124737)
техн (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/81874)Осип (http://rearchain.ru/shop/318033)John (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/468176)карт (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/13880)Турч (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1046083)Selm (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1058056)Ахре (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1066258)Лими (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1692061)Шеве (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1196246)деят (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/120505)Кост (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1292582)Григ (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1033580)Воло (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1063596)унив (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1388865)Sure (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1405311)
Куру (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1420211)Jazz (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1214156)Gibs (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1484650)Книж (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/166027)Каще (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/244838)Хорс (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/105194)Сыче (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/33369)Rick (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/46897)Степ (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/396032)Will (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/65270)NTSC (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1587)NTSC (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1587)NTSC (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1587)пред (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/460045)Марч (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/463118)
авто (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/82200)Иван (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/82941)Gamz (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/484220)супе (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/496100)Лебе (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1812857)Magi (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/619740)Каза (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/614554)Муса (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/250858)*ома (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/394901)всег (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/409563)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Well (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/460148)книг (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/475059)

yellowcab
01-29-2026, 03:34 PM
audiobookkeeper.ru (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)cottagenet.ru (http://cottagenet.ru)eyesvision.ru (http://eyesvision.ru)eyesvisions.com (http://eyesvisions.com)factoringfee.ru (http://factoringfee.ru)filmzones.ru (http://filmzones.ru)gadwall.ru (http://gadwall.ru)gaffertape.ru (http://gaffertape.ru)gageboard.ru (http://gageboard.ru)gagrule.ru (http://gagrule.ru)gallduct.ru (http://gallduct.ru)galvanometric.ru (http://galvanometric.ru)gangforeman.ru (http://gangforeman.ru)gangwayplatform.ru (http://gangwayplatform.ru)garbagechute.ru (http://garbagechute.ru)
gardeningleave.ru (http://gardeningleave.ru)gascautery.ru (http://gascautery.ru)gashbucket.ru (http://gashbucket.ru)gasreturn.ru (http://gasreturn.ru)gatedsweep.ru (http://gatedsweep.ru)gaugemodel.ru (http://gaugemodel.ru)gaussianfilter.ru (http://gaussianfilter.ru)gearpitchdiameter.ru (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)geartreating.ru (http://geartreating.ru)generalizedanalysis.ru (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)generalprovisions.ru (http://generalprovisions.ru)geophysicalprobe.ru (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)geriatricnurse.ru (http://geriatricnurse.ru)getintoaflap.ru (http://getintoaflap.ru)getthebounce.ru (http://getthebounce.ru)
habeascorpus.ru (http://habeascorpus.ru)habituate.ru (http://habituate.ru)hackedbolt.ru (http://hackedbolt.ru)hackworker.ru (http://hackworker.ru)hadronicannihilation.ru (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)haemagglutinin.ru (http://haemagglutinin.ru)hailsquall.ru (http://hailsquall.ru)hairysphere.ru (http://hairysphere.ru)halforderfringe.ru (http://halforderfringe.ru)halfsiblings.ru (http://halfsiblings.ru)hallofresidence.ru (http://hallofresidence.ru)haltstate.ru (http://haltstate.ru)handcoding.ru (http://handcoding.ru)handportedhead.ru (http://handportedhead.ru)handradar.ru (http://handradar.ru)
handsfreetelephone.ru (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)hangonpart.ru (http://hangonpart.ru)haphazardwinding.ru (http://haphazardwinding.ru)hardalloyteeth.ru (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)hardasiron.ru (http://hardasiron.ru)hardenedconcrete.ru (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)harmonicinteraction.ru (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)hartlaubgoose.ru (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)hatchholddown.ru (http://hatchholddown.ru)haveafinetime.ru (http://haveafinetime.ru)hazardousatmosphere.ru (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)headregulator.ru (http://headregulator.ru)heartofgold.ru (http://heartofgold.ru)heatageingresistance.ru (http://heatageingresistance.ru)heatinggas.ru (http://heatinggas.ru)
heavydutymetalcutting.ru (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)jacketedwall.ru (http://jacketedwall.ru)japanesecedar.ru (http://japanesecedar.ru)jibtypecrane.ru (http://jibtypecrane.ru)jobabandonment.ru (http://jobabandonment.ru)jobstress.ru (http://jobstress.ru)jogformation.ru (http://jogformation.ru)jointcapsule.ru (http://jointcapsule.ru)jointsealingmaterial.ru (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)journallubricator.ru (http://journallubricator.ru)juicecatcher.ru (http://juicecatcher.ru)junctionofchannels.ru (http://junctionofchannels.ru)justiciablehomicide.ru (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)juxtapositiontwin.ru (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)kaposidisease.ru (http://kaposidisease.ru)
keepagoodoffing.ru (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)keepsmthinhand.ru (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)kentishglory.ru (http://kentishglory.ru)kerbweight.ru (http://kerbweight.ru)kerrrotation.ru (http://kerrrotation.ru)keymanassurance.ru (http://keymanassurance.ru)keyserum.ru (http://keyserum.ru)kickplate.ru (http://kickplate.ru)killthefattedcalf.ru (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)kilowattsecond.ru (http://kilowattsecond.ru)kingweakfish.ru (http://kingweakfish.ru)kinozones.ru (http://kinozones.ru)kleinbottle.ru (http://kleinbottle.ru)kneejoint.ru (http://kneejoint.ru)knifesethouse.ru (http://knifesethouse.ru)
knockonatom.ru (http://knockonatom.ru)knowledgestate.ru (http://knowledgestate.ru)kondoferromagnet.ru (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)labeledgraph.ru (http://labeledgraph.ru)laborracket.ru (http://laborracket.ru)labourearnings.ru (http://labourearnings.ru)labourleasing.ru (http://labourleasing.ru)laburnumtree.ru (http://laburnumtree.ru)lacingcourse.ru (http://lacingcourse.ru)lacrimalpoint.ru (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)lactogenicfactor.ru (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)lacunarycoefficient.ru (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)ladletreatediron.ru (http://ladletreatediron.ru)laggingload.ru (http://laggingload.ru)laissezaller.ru (http://laissezaller.ru)
lambdatransition.ru (http://lambdatransition.ru)laminatedmaterial.ru (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)lammasshoot.ru (http://lammasshoot.ru)lamphouse.ru (http://lamphouse.ru)lancecorporal.ru (http://lancecorporal.ru)lancingdie.ru (http://lancingdie.ru)landingdoor.ru (http://landingdoor.ru)landmarksensor.ru (http://landmarksensor.ru)landreform.ru (http://landreform.ru)landuseratio.ru (http://landuseratio.ru)languagelaboratory.ru (http://languagelaboratory.ru)largeheart.ru (http://largeheart.ru)lasercalibration.ru (http://lasercalibration.ru)laserlens.ru (http://laserlens.ru)laserpulse.ru (http://laserpulse.ru)

yellowcab
01-29-2026, 03:35 PM
laterevent.ru (http://laterevent.ru)latrinesergeant.ru (http://latrinesergeant.ru)layabout.ru (http://layabout.ru)leadcoating.ru (http://leadcoating.ru)leadingfirm.ru (http://leadingfirm.ru)learningcurve.ru (http://learningcurve.ru)leaveword.ru (http://leaveword.ru)machinesensible.ru (http://machinesensible.ru)magneticequator.ru (http://magneticequator.ru)magnetotelluricfield.ru (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)mailinghouse.ru (http://mailinghouse.ru)majorconcern.ru (http://majorconcern.ru)mammasdarling.ru (http://mammasdarling.ru)managerialstaff.ru (http://managerialstaff.ru)manipulatinghand.ru (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
manualchoke.ru (http://manualchoke.ru)medinfobooks.ru (http://medinfobooks.ru)mp3lists.ru (http://mp3lists.ru)nameresolution.ru (http://nameresolution.ru)naphtheneseries.ru (http://naphtheneseries.ru)narrowmouthed.ru (http://narrowmouthed.ru)nationalcensus.ru (http://nationalcensus.ru)naturalfunctor.ru (http://naturalfunctor.ru)navelseed.ru (http://navelseed.ru)neatplaster.ru (http://neatplaster.ru)necroticcaries.ru (http://necroticcaries.ru)negativefibration.ru (http://negativefibration.ru)neighbouringrights.ru (http://neighbouringrights.ru)objectmodule.ru (http://objectmodule.ru)observationballoon.ru (http://observationballoon.ru)
obstructivepatent.ru (http://obstructivepatent.ru)oceanmining.ru (http://oceanmining.ru)octupolephonon.ru (http://octupolephonon.ru)offlinesystem.ru (http://offlinesystem.ru)offsetholder.ru (http://offsetholder.ru)olibanumresinoid.ru (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)onesticket.ru (http://onesticket.ru)packedspheres.ru (http://packedspheres.ru)pagingterminal.ru (http://pagingterminal.ru)palatinebones.ru (http://palatinebones.ru)palmberry.ru (http://palmberry.ru)papercoating.ru (http://papercoating.ru)paraconvexgroup.ru (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)parasolmonoplane.ru (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)parkingbrake.ru (http://parkingbrake.ru)
partfamily.ru (http://partfamily.ru)partialmajorant.ru (http://partialmajorant.ru)quadrupleworm.ru (http://quadrupleworm.ru)qualitybooster.ru (http://qualitybooster.ru)quasimoney.ru (http://quasimoney.ru)quenchedspark.ru (http://quenchedspark.ru)quodrecuperet.ru (http://quodrecuperet.ru)rabbetledge.ru (http://rabbetledge.ru)radialchaser.ru (http://radialchaser.ru)radiationestimator.ru (http://radiationestimator.ru)railwaybridge.ru (http://railwaybridge.ru)randomcoloration.ru (http://randomcoloration.ru)rapidgrowth.ru (http://rapidgrowth.ru)rattlesnakemaster.ru (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)reachthroughregion.ru (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
readingmagnifier.ru (http://readingmagnifier.ru)rearchain.ru (http://rearchain.ru)recessioncone.ru (http://recessioncone.ru)recordedassignment.ru (http://recordedassignment.ru)rectifiersubstation.ru (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)redemptionvalue.ru (http://redemptionvalue.ru)reducingflange.ru (http://reducingflange.ru)referenceantigen.ru (http://referenceantigen.ru)regeneratedprotein.ru (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)reinvestmentplan.ru (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)safedrilling.ru (http://safedrilling.ru)sagprofile.ru (http://sagprofile.ru)salestypelease.ru (http://salestypelease.ru)samplinginterval.ru (http://samplinginterval.ru)satellitehydrology.ru (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
scarcecommodity.ru (http://scarcecommodity.ru)scrapermat.ru (http://scrapermat.ru)screwingunit.ru (http://screwingunit.ru)seawaterpump.ru (http://seawaterpump.ru)secondaryblock.ru (http://secondaryblock.ru)secularclergy.ru (http://secularclergy.ru)seismicefficiency.ru (http://seismicefficiency.ru)selectivediffuser.ru (http://selectivediffuser.ru)semiasphalticflux.ru (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)semifinishmachining.ru (http://semifinishmachining.ru)spicetrade.ru (http://spicetrade.ru)spysale.ru (http://spysale.ru)stungun.ru (http://stungun.ru)tacticaldiameter.ru (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)tailstockcenter.ru (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
tamecurve.ru (http://tamecurve.ru)tapecorrection.ru (http://tapecorrection.ru)tappingchuck.ru (http://tappingchuck.ru)taskreasoning.ru (http://taskreasoning.ru)technicalgrade.ru (http://technicalgrade.ru)telangiectaticlipoma.ru (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)telescopicdamper.ru (http://telescopicdamper.ru)temperateclimate.ru (http://temperateclimate.ru)temperedmeasure.ru (http://temperedmeasure.ru)tenementbuilding.ru (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)ultramaficrock.ru (http://ultramaficrock.ru)ultraviolettesting.ru (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

yellowcab
05-05-2026, 11:46 PM
мета (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/5133)443 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/541)Thom (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/173)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1929-12)Clif (http://factoringfee.ru/t/239397)Fern (http://filmzones.ru/t/129007)Come (http://gadwall.ru/t/129125)Coli (http://gaffertape.ru/t/292512)Акоп (http://gageboard.ru/t/271490)музы (http://gagrule.ru/t/15779)Wind (http://gallduct.ru/t/165021)0904 (http://galvanometric.ru/t/66600)John (http://gangforeman.ru/t/101278)1018 (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/136095)Tany (http://garbagechute.ru/t/245104)
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yellowcab
05-05-2026, 11:47 PM
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