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redwoodfox
12-03-2009, 11:51 AM
was wondering how many people own high point firearms? I have the c9 9mm. I've gotten alot of people putting it down beacuse of cost but i have never had a problem with it. I wanted the 9mm carbine but CA. won't allow it.

crashdive123
12-03-2009, 12:42 PM
I do not own one. I did shoot one years ago. I am not a fan of them.

redwoodfox
12-03-2009, 01:02 PM
no? the only thing i have never liked is they are a bit heavy. What model did you shoot?

crashdive123
12-03-2009, 01:05 PM
Couldn't tell you the model. It was a 9mm. Felt cheap, grip was not all that comfortable in my hand, accuracy was questionable - other than that I didn't have any issues with it.

Icemancometh
12-03-2009, 01:45 PM
I don't own one, but my Brother-in-Law has the carbine and loves it. I had tried to steer him toward the Beretta Storm but he decided on the Hi-Point. I think it has to be one of the ugliest guns I have ever seen. I wouldn't buy one on looks alone, they just have an odd, cheap look to me.

woodsman86
12-03-2009, 03:26 PM
I also own a the compact 9mm. I love it because of how cheap it is. I paid a whole $90 for mine and it is my regular side arm for hunting. If I fall in the mud or roll down a hill, I don't cry over scratching my $90 pistol. I have put about 800 rounds through it and it only ever jammed when I was using crappy wolf ammo, not the pistol's fault. It is reliable and accurate enough for what I use it for without the high price. I wouldn't use it a shooting competition but for a nice field pistol it is the big bang for buck.

I don't know anything about their carbine.

redwoodfox
12-03-2009, 03:42 PM
i agree with you there, i would not use it for a competion gun. But yes it does make a nice field gun.

glockcop
12-03-2009, 04:21 PM
i agree with you there, i would not use it for a competion gun. But yes it does make a nice field gun.

Sorry, but I can't say much good about them. They are one of the top criminal weapons of choice beause they are so cheap. Do not attempt to shoot plus P ammo out of it unless you want a hand grenade with a handle on it. Hollow points are "iffy" at best as far as reliability goes. I would not trust it. No fireing pin safety is also a big problem (very unsafe). Cast metal (aka pot metal) accidents waiting to happen. Besides, who cares about getting a scratch on a "real" gun because they are tools and tools get used. I don't know about it being "a good field gun" but I can tell you it would be a great boat gun....As an anchor. This may not be what you wanted to here but it is the truth. I am sorry for the bluntness but this is my take on them. IMO you should sell it and get a good used pistol if cost is a consideration for you. You can pick up a nice revolver in .357 mag very reasonably priced and that my friend is a waaaaay better field gun than any Highpoint. Be safe out there.

az51
12-03-2009, 04:44 PM
I don't know...I have the C-9 and over the years I have put a lot of different ammo through with it very little problems unless I'm using a lower end load. As for the accuracy...my experience has been that if I don't hit what I'm aiming at, its me not the weapon.

Rick
12-03-2009, 04:47 PM
Oh, come on Glockcop. Tell us how you really feel.

I have the 9mm carbine. It's the 995 and I love it. Boat anchor or not it just keeps on shooting. Yeah, they are ugly as dirt but then I don't often pick pretty for my firearms (okay, sometimes I do). I don't own any of their handguns and don't know anything about them but the carbine is just fine in my book.

glockcop
12-03-2009, 05:05 PM
I am very happy that some users have had good luck with them. I would not trust them because GUNS have been my business for many many years and I recognize lack of quality/materials/design when I see it. I do not "dog" these guns because of their low price. A low price does not mean that anything in particular is a bad choice. Example = a good used revolver. More times than not though, you do get what you pay for when buying new. I critisize them because of their crappy materials (pot metal) are sub par for a firearm, Their design is unsafe and loosely constructed. There is a reason that they are made so "chunky" and big. The metal is weak and they need lots of it to contain the pressure. The springs, grip screws, extractor, mag body, and barrel are the only parts of the gun made of real steel. Magnesium alloy is used for the major parts. This is one of many reasons they are cheap. Being of a straight blow back design I again caution the use of higher pressured rounds. Shoot what you want out of it. They are your hands and face. But don't say "I didn't know" when the inevitable happens. Be careful with those "guns" (loose terminology). Take care.

P.S. I remember hearing somwhere that the Owner/President of Highpoint said, "We like to think of ourselves as the best of the cheap guns.", or something very similar. That says alot when the company Pres admits to there low quality status in so many words. Nuff said.

Rick
12-03-2009, 05:14 PM
Well, break or not it comes with an unconditional lifetime warranty. As for high pressure rounds...

"Hi-Point carbines are +P rated and accept all factory ammunition."

Nuff said.

glockcop
12-03-2009, 05:25 PM
Well, break or not it comes with an unconditional lifetime warranty. As for high pressure rounds...

"Hi-Point carbines are +P rated and accept all factory ammunition."

Nuff said.

Rick, I am fully aware of what their literature states is safe. I am also fully aware that Magnesium alloy is not a very good material to make a firearm from. Besides, no body will ever use the lifetime warranty because dead folks don't make customer service claims :). I wonder if they offer health or life insurance in their owner's manual :triage:. I will say again that it is a sobering fact of life that "you get what you pay for". Be safe brother.

Rick
12-03-2009, 05:30 PM
Wait. What? Is that a Glock? Say it ain't so!!!!!

http://www.pishtov.com/Glock/glock_kaboom_photo.jpg

glockcop
12-03-2009, 05:39 PM
That is a sh*tty attempt to make a misdirected point. There are more Glock pistols out in the world than mostly any other combat firearm. The laws of ratios dictate that you will see anything out there in those large numbers have a failure or two. I can gaurantee you that there are many more Hight Point problems out there when compared to a quality weapon. Failures happen with anything especially in $90.00 garbage. Not even the "church lady" would put a High Point in the same category as a quality gun such as, but not soley inclisive to, a Glock. Just rediculous and colluded. Be safe.
PS I bet a Glock will "contain" an over pressure round much safer than a Highpoint. Name a wager. One condition....You shoot the High Point:).

Rick
12-03-2009, 05:44 PM
Just rediculous and colluded

Well! Sir! I never! Send forth your second to meet mine! I shall not be disgraced in so public a fashion! You may have your choice of weapons. As for me, sir, mine shall be a Hi Point!

May I say your efforts have succeeded in derailing this entire thread. I hope you are happy! Now look at what you've done!

http://thenastyboys.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/train-wreck.jpg

Pal334
12-03-2009, 05:53 PM
Well! Sir! I never! Send forth your second to meet mine! I shall not be disgraced in so public a fashion! You may have your choice of weapons. As for me, sir, mine shall be a Hi Point!

May I say your efforts have succeeded in derailing this entire thread. I hope you are happy! Now look at what you've done!

http://thenastyboys.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/train-wreck.jpg

Sir, may I offer my gauntlet?

glockcop
12-03-2009, 05:56 PM
High Points are GREAT! I'm gonna buy one for my "X" with some +P+ ammo. Explosions and flying Magnesium alloy are fun. Merry Christmas, Honey...now shoot away. There Ya go. Right back on track. Take care.

glockcop
12-03-2009, 05:58 PM
Pal, gauntlet refused. I will not require it for such treacherous a task, Sir. The original challenge doth stand sentinel to my character. :)

hunter63
12-03-2009, 06:21 PM
I can take or leave the 9 mm carbine.
Personally I think it is under powered, for a carbine, sorta of a poor man's "assault weapon".
Would probably be a little more accurate then a 9mm hand gun, in inexperienced hands.

But then again, I think it would defeat the purpose, of high capacity hand gun, which IMO a good cover weapon. Pointing/shooting backwards, as cover fire, as you are hauling butt, to a better location.

Rick
12-03-2009, 06:30 PM
Not necessary, Pal. I will let stand without challenge an over opinionated post that fails to cite references and offer facts and data. Opinions are, as we all know, very much like celery. They are.....wait minute. Sorry. See? He got me off track.

Icemancometh
12-03-2009, 06:55 PM
Not necessary, Pal. I will let stand without challenge an over opinionated post that fails to cite references and offer facts and data. Opinions are, as we all know, very much like celery. They are.....wait minute. Sorry. See? He got me off track.

That made me laugh out loud.

Rick
12-03-2009, 06:58 PM
(Deep bow with hand extended)

glockcop
12-03-2009, 08:45 PM
I really don't feel it necessary to defend Glock or any other quality pistol over a marginal self defense pistol like a High Point. If you need references and proof well you just go ahead and waiste your time searching the internet. I will only need to say "told ya so" afterward :). I really don't care who carries or trusts them. I just know that I won't be one of those guys. My life and limbs are worth more than 90 bucks to me. Carry whatever you like with confidence. The voice of experience tells me to do the same. Just with a different choice in weaponry. Have fun with your guns. That is a big reason to have them, but do not trust your life to a gun made of magnesium alloy (high Point, Lorcin, Ravin, Davis, ect) and unsafe design. I sure won't. DO NOT CARRY THESE PISTOLS WITH A LOADED CHAMBER. If you drop them butt first they can fire and blow off your n*t sack. This is not my opinion but well documented warnings. If you need any proof of my views in this post just go down to your nearest police shooting range and get the opinion of another experienced shooter. Don't be surprized when they tell you the same (and they will). I hear the Army is looking for a new pistol (they really are not)...Ooooo maybe the'll choose a High Point .45. HaHaHaHaHa! Best.

Those with little experience in a certain field often accuse the more experienced/knowledgable person of being opinionated. This accusation is often, but not always, a reflection of their own inexperience and overwhelming realization of it. Just my over opinionated view of the ignorant. This is in no way a personal attack on any one in particular but if you feel that it is directed toward you, it's just your conscience. Off topic but I am craveing celery for some reason :). Thanks alot Rick. Yall stay safe.

redwoodfox
12-03-2009, 10:22 PM
:bawling:

ouch! glockcops mean

glockcop
12-03-2009, 10:40 PM
:bawling:

ouch! glockcops mean

Not at all, Brother. Like I said, it was not directed toward anyone in particular. One cannot be "mean" in the abstract, now can we?

Rick
12-03-2009, 11:20 PM
I really don't feel it necessary to defend Glock

Oh, yes you do. You can feel it right now. It's that little twitch that starts around your left eye and works it's way down to your fingers. Feel it? Yeah, that's it. That's why the mouse is movin' down to the message box. You want to. You HAVE to. It's okay. It's genetic and you're powerless to stop it.

Your turn. :innocent:

Ken
12-03-2009, 11:28 PM
You guys just don't get it! :innocent:

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Rick
12-03-2009, 11:36 PM
The very last time I was in the lab Wilbur and Dale wanted to know if they could tattoo my left eye. I haven't been back since.

http://sidesalad.net/archives/Rednecks.jpg

Ken
12-03-2009, 11:38 PM
The very last time I was in the lab Wilbur and Dale wanted to know if they could tattoo my left eye. I haven't been back since.

http://sidesalad.net/archives/Rednecks.jpg

European Division, huh? :innocent:

Rick
12-03-2009, 11:44 PM
That's the 3rd slam at Winnie. The 3rd!! I sure don't want to be you when she gets her hands on you. It's a shame the Sopranos went off. You'll make a perfect candidate after she's done with you.

Ken
12-03-2009, 11:48 PM
That's the 3rd slam at Winnie. The 3rd!! I sure don't want to be you when she gets her hands on you. It's a shame the Sopranos went off. You'll make a perfect candidate after she's done with you.

That ain't Winnie AND YOU KNOW IT! That's the 2dumb team. :sneaky2:

glockcop
12-04-2009, 12:09 AM
Rick, this is for you....Ya ready?.....Here we go.....GLOCKS SUCK AND HIGH POINT IS THE ULTIMATE WEAPON KNOWN TO MANKIND!!!!! Now, all of my apprehensions have been psycologically amputated at the medulla oblongata. I can sleep well tonight finally getting that off my chest.:) Ya'll take care.

Ken
12-04-2009, 12:12 AM
Rick, this is for you....Ya ready?.....Here we go.....GLOCKS SUCK AND HIGH POINT IS THE ULTIMATE WEAPON KNOWN TO MANKIND!!!!! Now, all of my apprehensions have been psycologically amputated at the medulla oblongata. I can sleep well tonight finally getting that off my chest.:) Ya'll take care.

I sense a hint of sarcasm here.......... :innocent:

glockcop
12-04-2009, 12:16 AM
I sense a hint of sarcasm here.......... :innocent:

Just a little bit. Man that hurt....I think I nicked my gray matter during the amputation :death:.

redwoodfox
12-04-2009, 12:23 AM
no,no. We got it all wrong. I finally figured it out,just had to read between the lines. Glockcop under thar rough sarcastic role is really a kind caring man who worries about our personal saftey. He would sleep better at night if he knew we were all shooting glocks, so therefore just pm him with your address and he will be happy to buy you a glock of choice to replace your highpoint. Please people we need to take this seriously,this poor man is giving himself an ulcer with worry.

catfish10101
12-04-2009, 12:31 AM
:nono:
Just a little bit. Man that hurt....I think I nicked my gray matter during the amputation :death:.

You're probably still better off than a Hi-Point owner!! :eyepoke:

A friend of mine bought one, a few months later he was trying to sell it to me for half price.

glockcop
12-04-2009, 12:39 AM
no,no. We got it all wrong. I finally figured it out,just had to read between the lines. Glockcop under thar rough sarcastic role is really a kind caring man who worries about our personal saftey. He would sleep better at night if he knew we were all shooting glocks, so therefore just pm him with your address and he will be happy to buy you a glock of choice to replace your highpoint. Please people we need to take this seriously,this poor man is giving himself an ulcer with worry.

I do wish that people arm themseves with the best weapons they can afford but I'm a Detective/Instructor on a cop's salary. I just can't afford to outfit all of you with better weapons BUT I'm sure a call to Pensilvania Avenue will get the ball rolling for ya. They seem to have no problem spending what we don't have. Just an idea. You may get a free cell phone too. I hear they give them out like candy nowaday's. Prepaid phones are the way to go with the drug dealers and social miscreants that receive that Gov. hand out. How else would they call the food stamp office to see if their food stamp card is ready for pick up EVERY month. Somebody has to feed them. May as well be you and I (people with jobs). You know...the guys who will die broke with little more than "CHANGE" in our pockets. I "HOPE" it gets better. And yes I am a kind and caring person (albiet a little harshly tongued at times) who is sincerly concerned with the public's safety. No sarcasm in the last part. Yall take care.

Ken
12-04-2009, 12:44 AM
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8832&highlight=last+word

glockcop
12-04-2009, 12:46 AM
:nono:

You're probably still better off than a Hi-Point owner!! :eyepoke:

A friend of mine bought one, a few months later he was trying to sell it to me for half price.

Now that I'm brain damaged and drooling all over my shirt, I can feel comfortable relying on a High Point (aka gangsta blasta). :jango:

Ken
12-04-2009, 12:50 AM
http://blog.sellsiusrealestate.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/piss%20fountain.jpg

redwoodfox
12-04-2009, 01:04 AM
hey glockcop hope you know i was just kidding you? I'm not upset that you hate my gun. LOL. It was all i could afford at the time and since it is my only auto i own i gotta work with what i got. Truth be told i don't actully carry it or shoot it much anymore. A couple years ago my wife bought me a 22 revolver, i shoot hundreds of rounds thru that. I actully prefer my bow over my pistols. So i only own the 9mm and the 22. I keep the 9mm around in case i need it for self defense {at home} when i'm out i carry a can of mace and a K-BAR TDK. Yes one day i would like to own a better pistol, but for now that will have to wait. I will probably get a relvolver, i use my guns more in the woods than anywhere.don't need something i can carry concealed. I don't think my boss would like that. " but boss look at this neat trick.. I can shoot the nails into the boards!"

glockcop
12-04-2009, 02:01 AM
hey glockcop hope you know i was just kidding you? I'm not upset that you hate my gun. LOL. It was all i could afford at the time and since it is my only auto i own i gotta work with what i got. Truth be told i don't actully carry it or shoot it much anymore. A couple years ago my wife bought me a 22 revolver, i shoot hundreds of rounds thru that. I actully prefer my bow over my pistols. So i only own the 9mm and the 22. I keep the 9mm around in case i need it for self defense {at home} when i'm out i carry a can of mace and a K-BAR TDK. Yes one day i would like to own a better pistol, but for now that will have to wait. I will probably get a relvolver, i use my guns more in the woods than anywhere.don't need something i can carry concealed. I don't think my boss would like that. " but boss look at this neat trick.. I can shoot the nails into the boards!"

Yah, I know you were kidding. It's cool. I don't hate your gun. I think there are better quality and safer choices to be had. Save your pennies and get a 4 inch barrel S&W Model 66 or 686. A Ruger GP100 is also just as excellent. They will serve you well. Your .22 revolver is also a great woods gun. I usually carry a stainless steel 6 1/2" Ruger Single Six with .22 mag cylinder when woods bumbing or hunting. I get alot of use and comfort from that revolver. It is surgically accurate. If I don't have that Single Six with me I usually have my S&W 686 out in the field. Can't go wrong with a good quality revolver I always say. For more domesticated duties, my Glock .40 and/or Kahr MK9 fits the bill. Check the pawn shops for some great deals. It is always better to save a little longer to buy something much much better. You'll be glad you did in the long run. With a stainless steel .357 and .22 LR/mag revolver you will have two dependable life long friends that your children will eventually enjoy when you're gone. Be safe, Brother.

oldsoldier
12-04-2009, 03:15 AM
I have a highpoint 9mm and a .45 pistol(s) bought them from a friend a year or so ago when he needed money. The are a fair weapon but lack IMO a bit in the accuracy dept. I had the opportunity to "field test" the 9mm carbine and sorry to say I was very disapointed in it. The weapon was "loose" and seemed poorly made, had a tendency to "jam" and was extremely inacurate over 75 yards. IMHO you would be much better off to save your money and buy a better weapon.

finallyME
12-04-2009, 11:25 AM
I will follow oldsoldiers example and get back on topic. :smash:

This is my own experience and doesn't represent any scientific evidence.
My brother in law has the 9mm high point. My brother has a 9mm XD. My other brother had a 9mm keltech (I think that is what it was, he said it was the smallest auto 9mm, or close to it). Having fired those three guns for comparison, the XD is the clear winner with the high point in second. The Keltech is a far third. Using my sucky aiming as a bench mark (i.e. other can do better, but I am consistently bad), I can shoot in a 5 inch circle at 20 yrds with the XD, a 5 inch circle at 10 yrds with the High point, and not come close to hitting a man size target 80% of the time at 5 yrds with the keltech. Like I said, my experience. Maybe I was doing something wrong. I think the high point is heavy and weighted awkward.

I still don't have my own handgun (all my long guns have been stolen ;) ). But, I am saving for one. For a while I had it narrowed down to 3 brands (Glock, XD, and H&K). I am set on a .45. The problem with the H&K is that the one I want hovers around $1000. The Glock and XD are half that. I like the way the XD feels in my hand more than the Glock, but aside from that, I have no preference for one or the other. For a while, I was thinking that I could buy a high point to use while I saved my pennies for the H&K, but I am still undecided. It sucks to be poor. If any one wants to donate to the cause, feel free. Although, don't be surprised when the gun is stolen ;) .

crashdive123
12-04-2009, 11:44 AM
If any one wants to donate to the cause, feel free.I consider you a friend. Wouldn't want to annoy you - you know with your vow and all. :innocent:

Rick
12-04-2009, 02:05 PM
finallyMe - The Kel-Tec PF9 is my everyday carry. I think the recoil on the little guy is worse than my XD 45 but then the XD has more bulk to absorb it. The PF9 is light enough to drop in your front pocket and forget you have it there. I can carry it all day long and not have the problem of it getting heavy like most other handguns will. I'd bet if you spent some range time with the PF9 or the Hi Point you'd be driving tacks in no time. (That for you, Sourdough).

glockcop
12-04-2009, 03:55 PM
My wife has a Kel Tec P11 and it is a great inexpensive weapon. We have never had reliability problems and it takes Smith and Wesson mags to boot. Really a nice little affordable pistol you can depend on. It is also constructed of quality materials such as real steel and a reinforced polymer frame. Pretty accurate for a sub compact pistol. If you do your part it can keep a full 11 round mag on a saucer sized party plate at 25 yards predictably. If one cannot accomplish that with this little pistol, it ain't the guns fault. IMO it is the very best of the "inexpensive" sub compact autos. Best.

Rick
12-04-2009, 06:11 PM
How does she do with the recoil on that? It's just a tad bit larger than the PF9 so recoil should be about the same on each. I don't mind it but I thought it might be a bit much for my wife.

glockcop
12-04-2009, 10:37 PM
How does she do with the recoil on that? It's just a tad bit larger than the PF9 so recoil should be about the same on each. I don't mind it but I thought it might be a bit much for my wife.

She does just fine with it. The recoil is not that bad at all but a little more than a full size combat pistol of course. I gave it to her years ago to keep in her car. She keeps a spare 15 round S&W mag in the center consoul. She likes it better than the 5 shot chief special she had at one time. She says the high round count comforts here. I sure can't argue with "too much ammo". No such thing in my book. I have offered her a different pistol a few times but she will not give it up. Why should she? It runs like a clock and she can handle it very well. She has found a winning combo that she just loves. The world is goooood when momma is happy:). Best.

A 9mm in a gun with the small size of a Kel Tec will have recoil similar to that of a .40 cal in a full sized pistol. It should be no problem for your wife. Most people with recoil problems have those problems because somebody told them they should. More times than not recoil sensitivity is a psycological manifestation due to suggestion rather than an actual physical problem. Long story short....Don't tell her "Honey this pistol is gonna kick" and miraculously it will not. Instead, build her confidence with "Honey, you're gonna like the way this little puppy shoots". The power of suggestion works both ways. She will be fine. Best.

Rick
12-05-2009, 10:04 AM
Glockcop is on the other end. Just so you know.

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/4397342/2/istockphoto_4397342-going-further-man-pulling-a-chain.jpg

glockcop
12-05-2009, 12:49 PM
Glockcop is on the other end. Just so you know.

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/4397342/2/istockphoto_4397342-going-further-man-pulling-a-chain.jpg

No way Man. I have trained many female officers with 9mm, .40, .45, and 357 mag. Once their confidence is built they could shoot any of them proficiently. I have never had one fail out of my training. It's all about proper technique and putting your mind in the right place. We are talking about pistols here not RPG's for God's sake. Take my word on this one. Try it out and you will be amazed at what your little bitty wife can shoot well. Take care, Brother.

crashdive123
12-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Ummmm Glockcop - I think he meant he was just yanking your chain.

glockcop
12-05-2009, 04:38 PM
Sorry. I was a little slow on the draw. I never know what to expect around here :).

ratchet1957
01-07-2012, 12:42 AM
Sorry, but I can't say much good about them. They are one of the top criminal weapons of choice beause they are so cheap. Do not attempt to shoot plus P ammo out of it unless you want a hand grenade with a handle on it. Hollow points are "iffy" at best as far as reliability goes. I would not trust it. No fireing pin safety is also a big problem (very unsafe). Cast metal (aka pot metal) accidents waiting to happen. Besides, who cares about getting a scratch on a "real" gun because they are tools and tools get used. I don't know about it being "a good field gun" but I can tell you it would be a great boat gun....As an anchor. This may not be what you wanted to here but it is the truth. I am sorry for the bluntness but this is my take on them. IMO you should sell it and get a good used pistol if cost is a consideration for you. You can pick up a nice revolver in .357 mag very reasonably priced and that my friend is a waaaaay better field gun than any Highpoint. Be safe out there.

I shoot hollow points all the time w/absolutely NO problems !!

Thaddius Bickerton
03-23-2012, 03:00 PM
I love my 1911's for a semi auto handgun.

I have shot both glocks and hi points. I really don't find either to feel like a real gun to me.

However, both do go bang.

I won't criticize a poor man for having to buy a poor man's gun. I won't criticize the man who wants a plastic gun.

I happen to love mosin nagants and SKS' and both were inexpensive or are inexpensive to buy.

I do have a question, has anyone ever sued --successfully-- high point for one of their guns blowing up in their hand? I have no idea, but since they are cheap and apparently often used by those who one might imagine lack a lot of experience with firearms, and who have a reputation for suing honest home owners who defend themselves against home invasion, I would think that if they ever blew up there would be law suits all over the place.

A blow back .45acp for under 200 dollars is going to be a heavy two by four feeling weapon, is it the best in the world, probably not, do they go bang, yes.

IMHO John Moses Browning perfected the handgun in 1911 and the .45acp is the epitome of self defense cartridge for that weapon. All others are just imitations at best.

Then again I much prefer a nice revolver in .44 magnum or .45 LC. I do have a .45acp model 1917 that I use with the new plastic full moon clips that I also enjoy playing around with.

For me a woods loafing gun, or a self defense gun is still a revolver. (Old and set in my ways.)

In fact one of my favorite revolvers is the ruger blackhawks in all of their various flavors.

For self defense I like Jeff Cooper's opinion that a defensive pistol should come in a caliber starting with a 4 and ending in a 5.

Of course that is my opinion and like armpits we all have a couple and sometimes other people think they stink.