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View Full Version : Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?



Kamiyama
10-12-2009, 02:28 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,563883,00.html

Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?

Sunday , October 11, 2009

WASHINGTON —

In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

"The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.

The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

Pal334
10-12-2009, 07:27 AM
The M 16 and it deriviatives (M4) are extremely adequate unless you are put in a position such as those guys were in. When it is abused to the maximum by a combat situation (these guys had no choice), it is prone to failure. The U.S. military is way over due for a replacement. I know I never carried one if I could beg borrow or steal something else. ANd that was over a period approximately 30 years!!!!

oly
10-12-2009, 07:48 AM
My M16A1 jammed all of the time and then they issued me an M16A2 that never jammed, with my experience with the A1 my confidence with the A2 was none.

glockcop
10-12-2009, 10:29 AM
Coburn said, "The weapon has served us well...". This media outlet states that 90% of the troops are happy with the weapon (last I hear it was more like 95%). The DOD is also satisfied with the M-4 and has shelved any plans for change because of test done with other weapons with similar results. ANY weapon will overheat with hundreds of rounds fired in a short period of time, so that is NO ill reflection of the weapon. I have personally carried and abused several M-4's for years and have been happy with the weapon's performance and reliability. I know many combat veterans ,my father included, and few ,if any, complain about the M-4/M-16 platform. Keep it reasonably clean, like EVERYTHING else, and it runs....and runs WELL! You will get reports that a bowling ball "Is not round enough" if you ask enough people. All of a sudden the few bad reports are the Law that the "object" is judged by. I say, "Bullsh*t"! In SWAT training, in The Instructor's Academy, and in Police Sniper training, Ive had mine covered over with sand, in mud, submerged in filthy canal water, thrown to the ground in CQB training, and flat out abused. IT WORKS PERIOD! Don't drink the Cool Aide people. The media needs "horror" stories for ratings. People want to hear all the bad crap they can and the media monoplizes on the "dirty laundry" mentality. Our boys are well armed, NO MATTER WHO tells you different. Now someone is gonna say something about "Politics" and governmental decisions. I again say, "Bullsh*t". Do you really think for the last 46 years the US Military would still be using this platform if it didn't work. The US Military used the 1911 .45 for 75 yrs before it was replaced. You know why? IT WORKED. The US Military does not go about changing things because of a few bad reports when they know better. This battle proven rifle is second globally only to the AK47 for shear numbers issued. There are 88 plus, yes "88" plus countries that field this rifle in one capacity or another. I think that says it all. Best.

Pal334
10-12-2009, 10:50 AM
Tsk, tsk. I prefer Crystal Light over Koolaid. Agreed the M-16 series is adequate and is probably one of , if not the best Military standard issue rifles in the world. That being said, it is time to change. If you are able to keep an M-16 type weapon cleaned, it serves well. In the circumstance described, that is not possible and results in a fairly consistent failure rate. Hmmm, a few reports of this type? I think any one with any real experience would be familiar with this fairly consistent report of jamming under extreme heavy usage for oh so many years. Technology has progressed to the point that there are alternatives that would be better suited to our troops. They deserve the "cutting edge" and I actually think that the HK 416 is that edge. Someday we will see.
Now someone is gonna say something about "Politics" and governmental decisions.And believe me when I say, if I thought that, I would say that.:

glockcop
10-12-2009, 11:10 AM
Tsk, tsk. I prefer Crystal Light over Koolaid. Agreed the M-16 series is adequate and is probably one of , if not the best Military standard issue rifles in the world. That being said, it is time to change. If you are able to keep an M-16 type weapon cleaned, it serves well. In the circumstance described, that is not possible and results in a fairly consistent failure rate. Hmmm, a few reports of this type? I think any one with any real experience would be familiar with this fairly consistent report of jamming under extreme heavy usage for oh so many years. Technology has progressed to the point that there are alternatives that would be better suited to our troops. They deserve the "cutting edge" and I actually think that the HK 416 is that edge. Someday we will see.
Now someone is gonna say something about "Politics" and governmental decisions.And believe me when I say, if I thought that, I would say that.:

Reasonably clean like Everything else is the point. My experience with it in terrible conditions has been great. "Anyone with any real experience"....That would be "ME" amognst others who have had great performance out of it. Remember the media and "dirty laudry". You are well old enough to know not to believe everthing you read. It works PERIOD! 8 million plus m-16 rifles say so. We can go all day round for round but I know what I know :smash:. And Oh my God!! Mr. 1911 talking about "technological advancements''. Well, welcome to the 21st centry, Brother :). I promise, I will not say anything about a Glock this time :). I like the H&K 416 for a possible alternative battle rifle too. Stay safe.

Pal334
10-12-2009, 11:18 AM
You are well old enough to know not to believe everthing you read. I guess you are right, 2 years in, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, then there was Somolia, and the current dust up in the Sand box probably does make me rely on written reports over my experience. Technology is not mutually exclusive to reliabilty and that is the goal.

"Anyone with any real experience"....I guess you are correct, multiple years of experience in weapons training does cap multiple decades of field use.

Let the reader decide what they will

Pal334
10-12-2009, 11:19 AM
oops, I think I reposted your post Glock. I got distracted here. Error on my part

glockcop
10-12-2009, 11:26 AM
No problem, Pal. I already deleated the error. Ladies and gentelman, I give you Mr. "Technology"....Previously known as Mr. "1911" :). Sort of a "The artist previously known as Prince" thing. Hahaahahaha! Ya know I'm just playing with ya. Take care, Brother.

Pal334
10-12-2009, 11:40 AM
No problem, Pal. I already deleated the error. Ladies and gentelman, I give you Mr. "Technology"....Previously known as Mr. "1911" :). Sort of a "The artist previously known as Prince" thing. Hahaahahaha! Ya know I'm just playing with ya. Take care, Brother.

Next you will be expecting me to give up the mule for one of those automobiles

tacticalguy
10-12-2009, 06:35 PM
i think this is an example of why some soldiers try to pick up an ak-47 and dump their issue weapons while overseas so that they can use an Ak, (which hardly ever jams) instead of their issue weapon.

SARKY
10-12-2009, 07:04 PM
The 2 things I have never liked about the M-16/M-4 are 1: the round it fires and 2: the gas impingment system. The .223 is rated as a varmint round (that is the 4 legged kind not the 2 legged kind) and why would I purposely dump hot crap into my action and still expect in not to heat up or gunk up??

glockcop
10-13-2009, 01:05 AM
AGAIN!! 8 million M-16 rifles in "88" plus countries say different. Do ya get it yet, huh :)? I swear, the skulls are gettin thicker and the ears are gettin smaller around here. Just joking yall. Put your AK's away. No need for violence. Sarky, did you know that the Swiss wanted that "varment round" taken out of NATO service when it was first fielded because it worked "TOO WELL". That is a fact, Brother. The killing ability of that ultra high velocity round was the class room example of hydrostatic shock and super large permanent wound cavity. It just mangled the enemy way too much for the Swiss' liking. Take it to the bank. I recall the account of a Nam vet who stated that he hit a VC is the upper arm with one of those varment rounds and the result was a totally defleshed humerus. Yep, just bone attaching his forearm to his body. I call that impressive for a prarie dog rifle. For the record, that VC expired rather quickly from immediate massive hemmorage according to the Vet. Yes, with 45 grain soft points it is "rated" as a varment round. In 64 gr FMJ it is a combat round, and a good one too. Now, let the games begin :).Yall be safe.

Pal334
10-13-2009, 07:04 AM
AGAIN!! 8 million M-16 rifles in "88" plus countries say different. Do ya get it yet, huh :)? I swear, the skulls are gettin thicker and the ears are gettin smaller around here. Just joking yall. Put your AK's away. No need for violence. Sarky, did you know that the Swiss wanted that "varment round" taken out of NATO service when it was first fielded because it worked "TOO WELL". That is a fact, Brother. The killing ability of that ultra high velocity round was the class room example of hydrostatic shock and super large permanent wound cavity. It just mangled the enemy way too much for the Swiss' liking. Take it to the bank. I recall the account of a Nam vet who stated that he hit a VC is the upper arm with one of those varment rounds and the result was a totally defleshed humerus. Yep, just bone attaching his forearm to his body. I call that impressive for a prarie dog rifle. For the record, that VC expired rather quickly from immediate massive hemmorage according to the Vet. Yes, with 45 grain soft points it is "rated" as a varment round. In 64 gr FMJ it is a combat round, and a good one too. Now, let the games begin :).Yall be safe.

Sighing. I try not to read those reports. Just saying from an eye ball to eyeball advantage have seen more than one miscreant run for substantial distances with two in the chest and one was running so fast, we had a heck of a time catching him before he bled out. Can't offer any other such stories on other rifle calibers (7.62 seemed to always terminate hostilites). So speaking in absolutes does not necessarily further the discussion. Provided for whatever information the reader may take from it.

I swear, the skulls are gettin thicker Yup, hardly ever need a helmet anymore :)

Pal334
10-13-2009, 07:36 AM
Just some background, gathered from field users a small sampling, if you are interested, Google will give you more of both sides of the discussion.
If the reader is making a decision, he / she can decide if controlled tests or Field experience is more helpful. Personally I prefer the opinions of the dirty booted, grimy faced GI.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1778197/posts
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/07/cbsnews_investigates/main1692346.shtml
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4279340

Rick
10-13-2009, 07:48 AM
I don't know about this stuff one way or the other. No experience, no studies. Nothing other than what I read. I'm sure politics plays a huge role in it, too. However...

From all accounts I've read, the M1A/M14 in 7.62 seems to be a valued weapon by just about anyone that used it. Curious to me that we didn't utilize that platform as the basis of a new weapon when the M16 was first developed. The SOCOM seems to be well received so it certainly was/is doable and I would think at far less cost.

Pal334
10-13-2009, 08:23 AM
Rick, you are right, there are tons of the M14s in the inventory, and some units are issuing them to Designated Marksmen. I would think they would be especially helpful in AFghanistan (never been there myself), where it would appear that alot of the hostilities are at long range. As I understand it, one of the big motivators for the smaller platform was the weapons weight and the weight of the ammunition. All are good reasons, at least intially.
One of the happiest campers I saw in the sandbox was carrying a SOCOM 16. The best of all worlds, relatively short, powerful round. Still had the weight issue, but he dealt with it.

Pal334
10-13-2009, 08:30 AM
Pics of both SOCOM 16 and M 14

Ole WV Coot
10-13-2009, 08:54 AM
Rick, you are right, there are tons of the M14s in the inventory, and some units are issuing them to Designated Marksmen. I would think they would be especially helpful in AFghanistan (never been there myself), where it would appear that alot of the hostilities are at long range. As I understand it, one of the big motivators for the smaller platform was the weapons weight and the weight of the ammunition. All are good reasons, at least intially.
One of the happiest campers I saw in the sandbox was carrying a SOCOM 16. The best of all worlds, relatively short, powerful round. Still had the weight issue, but he dealt with it.

PAL we and others know that some draftees could care less in the '60s about weapons, sleeping on duty, stoned etc. The only idiot proof(almost) weapon was the AK. I always keep firearms clean and knives sharp, didn't have any problems and although the draft is gone you always get a few misfits that make a lot of noise. I slept with a S&W Mod 60 and it served well. Officers just dropping by to have it on their record, carrying nice, shiny $500 Bowie knives and fancy '45s presented by dear ole dad. It came down to the man behind the weapon in most instances, nothing is 100% reliable and I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an AK or anything if I needed it. That's a personal observation and everyone will have a different one depending where they were, you would know more than me after my time. Regular NVA were kinda like trying to whip a dog in his own backyard.

Rick
10-13-2009, 09:26 AM
They answered that way based on the fact that you took out the trophy case, the old lady in the next lane and consistently throw gutter balls. Perhaps the cause of the problem has been mis-identified but you have to start somewhere.

You should buy a Bersa .45

glockcop
10-13-2009, 09:31 AM
I just asked 10 people and nine of them said that my bowling ball was not "round enough". Eight of them anwered that way after the first "Tard" said so. NUFF SAID! Like Ole Coot said, I would not hesitate to pick up any weapon in a time of need but as for the the KoolAide, I aint drinking it. I know what several M-4's has gone through in my hands and it wasn't perfect conditions by any means. It ran and ran and ran. I'm not hear to convince anyone out of their view. I just know what my experience has taught me and I ain't listening to the media dribble or any one else. I am old enough to know to rely on my own lesson's learned, not other people's "war stories" or what have you (not meant about you Pal). Think about it for a minute. With soooo many m-16/4's in service your bound to hear stories of a malfunction in the field. The laws of probability apply. Yall take care.

glockcop
10-13-2009, 09:38 AM
They answered that way based on the fact that you took out the trophy case, the old lady in the next lane and consistently throw gutter balls. Perhaps the cause of the problem has been mis-identified but you have to start somewhere.

You should buy a Bersa .45

Rick, I actually used to own a Bersa 9. It was pretty descent for the $$. Honestly, your little plugs about pistols are really making me laugh:). That was a good un. Take care, Brother.

Pal334
10-13-2009, 09:44 AM
PAL we and others know that some draftees could care less in the '60s about weapons, sleeping on duty, stoned etc. The only idiot proof(almost) weapon was the AK. I always keep firearms clean and knives sharp, didn't have any problems and although the draft is gone you always get a few misfits that make a lot of noise. I slept with a S&W Mod 60 and it served well. Officers just dropping by to have it on their record, carrying nice, shiny $500 Bowie knives and fancy '45s presented by dear ole dad. It came down to the man behind the weapon in most instances, nothing is 100% reliable and I wouldn't hesitate to pick up an AK or anything if I needed it. That's a personal observation and everyone will have a different one depending where they were, you would know more than me after my time. Regular NVA were kinda like trying to whip a dog in his own backyard.

Still an issue, even with an all volunteer military. It takes a mean SOB NCO to keep them motivated sometimes. And even then is not always successful. Agreed, the regular NVA could be a tough cutomer. At least they were a fairly disciplined bunch, worthy of some respect. Not like the current bunch of "spray and pray" bad guys

glockcop
10-13-2009, 11:15 AM
M-14 and SOCOM 16 are undoubtedly fine weapons that get the job done more often than not. BUT there is no cure all magic bullet. I have personally witnessed a "bad guy" take a .308 to the chest and he still had enough gas to run. When caught he still faught before "God stepped in". In New Orleans I have also seen more than a few AK 47 rounds NOT get the job done dozens of times over the years. Charity Hospital wanted to issue .300 Win Mags to the drug dealers:). Maybe that will kill the roaches. Probably not though. Ya just can't rid the world of crap. By the way, If ya'll do find a magic bullet, let me know because I could use some myself. Best.

Rick
10-13-2009, 12:56 PM
your little plugs about pistols are really making me laugh

It's supposed to. By the way, you should buy a P series Ruger .45

glockcop
10-13-2009, 01:34 PM
It's supposed to. By the way, you should buy a P series Ruger .45

Had one of them too and liked it alot.

NCO
10-23-2009, 08:46 AM
I'm not surprised at all. I never had that problem in green, but we had RK 95 TP 7.62-39mm. Basically an AK 47 on steroids. Accurate as hell, to the distances we shot from. Max around 300m. Never jammed, never failed. Froze once, but that was fixed by giving it a whack at a tree.

Beo
10-23-2009, 11:50 AM
The M4 is a great weapon, durable and works well in all conditions and I never had a problem with mine when I was in the Army, with BW who is now Xe (Z) Worldwide, or even now as deputy. Operator error does come into play sometimes (although not always) and the M4 is nothing more than a tool. Personally I like the M4 but think the military should switch to a more updated rifle that has a little more muzzle velocity (knock down power).
Just my opinion
Beo,

TangoFoxtrot
10-25-2009, 08:21 AM
When I served in Iraq in 04 my M4 operated alot better with a graphite lube. Sand got into everything! Of course the graphite lube was against Army SOP....oh well!

WoodSmoke
11-07-2009, 12:47 AM
I just wish they'd go back to the 55 gr. bullet and the 1 in 12" rifling with the 20" bbl.

That's what gave the M-16 it's reputation as a nasty rifle, the newer loads and shorter barrels have reduced it's effectiveness. Sure, it still works, not as well as others, but it works... and it would work so much better if they quit trying to fix what wasn't broken.

That's the military for ya though, always trying to go one better, even if what ya have works well. Hell, from what I've heard, a Garand would work wonders right about now.

If they could find someone who really knew how to shoot it. Or shoot any rifle for that matter.

Proud American
11-11-2009, 01:54 PM
My take on the M4 from what I have read and heard from people that know what there talking about(I have never shot either an M4/M16) is an old military saying "Never forget your weapon was made by the lowest bidder." and with that I would like to say that M4/M16 are used by America and other countries over the AK series because they feel they are better. The AK is cheap and runs well so they use it while other countries that have more money buy M4/M16 because they feel there getting a better gun. The reason the M4 has not been replaced by other guns is the cost is not worth the benifits.

On another topic,I heard from my uncle there thinking of going back to bigger rounds.Not because of jamming but the fact that 9mm and M4 werent doing the job. The original M16 was more lethal thatn the M4 because the bullet tumbled creating those nasty wounds. Now though are .223 don't tumble and just make litle holes so it takes to many rounds to take an adrenaline pumped terrorist out. He said that the 9mm is haveing the same problem and having 15 rounds of lighter ammunition isn't better then 8 rounds of .45cal.

Just what i have heard please don't jump the nerdy kid all those with more experience

glockcop
11-12-2009, 10:47 AM
My take on the M4 from what I have read and heard from people that know what there talking about(I have never shot either an M4/M16) is an old military saying "Never forget your weapon was made by the lowest bidder." and with that I would like to say that M4/M16 are used by America and other countries over the AK series because they feel they are better. The AK is cheap and runs well so they use it while other countries that have more money buy M4/M16 because they feel there getting a better gun. The reason the M4 has not been replaced by other guns is the cost is not worth the benifits.

On another topic,I heard from my uncle there thinking of going back to bigger rounds.Not because of jamming but the fact that 9mm and M4 werent doing the job. The original M16 was more lethal thatn the M4 because the bullet tumbled creating those nasty wounds. Now though are .223 don't tumble and just make litle holes so it takes to many rounds to take an adrenaline pumped terrorist out. He said that the 9mm is haveing the same problem and having 15 rounds of lighter ammunition isn't better then 8 rounds of .45cal.

Just what i have heard please don't jump the nerdy kid all those with more experience

Don't believe the hype. 9mm and .45 ball aka "FMJ" perform very, very similarly. if anything 9mm ball has a slight edge due to deeper penetration because of it's better sectional density. 9mm also has more hydrostatic shock because of it's higher velocity. Niether is "better" than the other in reality. The fact of the matter is that all combat pistol calibers are pretty poor stoppers. If you know your going in harms way bring a shotgun with buckshot or rifle. We carry pistols because they are easy to tote around not because they work so well. You are absolutely correct about how and why the older M16 ammo worked better than today's heavy grain 5.56x45 ammo. Stay safe.

TangoFoxtrot
11-17-2009, 07:41 PM
Lets be realistic. I used an M4 myself in Iraq in 04, and it by no means was perfect. I will stay it was balls accurate.

glockcop
11-18-2009, 02:46 AM
Lets be realistic. I used an M4 myself in Iraq in 04, and it by no means was perfect. I will stay it was balls accurate.

Nobody said it was perfect. Close as a modern combat rifle can get though in my not so inexperienced opinion. Ive been teaching it's usage for years and can say it is one of if not the finest military rifles ever created. I have issue with people that have never owned an M4 or just shot a worn out issue or range weapon and declaire it a piece of crap. Not fair to the namesake of the weapon and not good advise giving. Those are usually the guys who could not scratch up the cash for an AR style rifle and settled on an AK or SKS. They then repeat unfortunate "war stories" (mostly media fabrications) to justify their ownership of a cheaply made weapon. In their hearts they still want an AR / M4 but their wife will divorce them if the electric bill is not paid. Just my opinion. M4's are also waaaayyyy more accurate than just about any other combat rifle out there. Thank you for your service in the sand box. Stay safe, Brother.

TangoFoxtrot
11-21-2009, 07:03 PM
Glockcop, The blackrifles have come a long way over the years. The problem lies with the military(gov't) and its lowest bidder policies. Their are better grades of the rifle(M16) but at higher price tags. Our soldiers should be armed with the best built version......and your welcome.

glockcop
11-23-2009, 12:54 PM
Glockcop, The blackrifles have come a long way over the years. The problem lies with the military(gov't) and its lowest bidder policies. Their are better grades of the rifle(M16) but at higher price tags. Our soldiers should be armed with the best built version......and your welcome.

Agreed 100%. I guess that Rock River Arms needs to build a bigger factory so they can supply the military with the M4 :rambo:. Their weapons are simply superlative IMO. Stay safe, Brother.

TangoFoxtrot
11-23-2009, 07:33 PM
It's supposed to. By the way, you should buy a P series Ruger .45


Ruger??? Their allowed to make auto pistols?:innocent: