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View Full Version : Does Anybody Arm Themselves With Glocks?



TangoFoxtrot
09-07-2009, 11:47 AM
Does Anybody Arm Themselves With Glocks? If so what model and why.

Rick
09-07-2009, 11:55 AM
Why not arm yourself and visit out Introduction section. The more we know about you the better we can help.

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7813

As it is, we don't know if you're 12 or 21.

mortars101
09-07-2009, 11:56 AM
i use a glock 21 high capacity 45 cant go wrong did some duribility tests my self keeps on shootin combat accuracy is better than most people can shoot i was also in iraq 04-05 and 07-08 where were you out of

TangoFoxtrot
09-07-2009, 12:36 PM
The G21 is an excellent choice for the .45 ACP. I own one myself. I was with "Pattons Own" 3rd Army Div. PSD Fort Bragg.

mortars101
09-07-2009, 01:15 PM
i fell under the 3rd my first deployment

SARKY
09-07-2009, 04:21 PM
Nice kids! My dad was in the 3rd...... in Korea. As in Korean conflict. I've seen too many A.D.'s with the Glock. Not the Glocks fault, but if you are going to own a firearm, train with it. I prefer a ParaOrdnance, cocked and locked!

Pict
09-07-2009, 05:27 PM
I often carry a Glock 19. As far as high cap autos go it was the most size and weight efficient model when I bought it years ago. It is also stone reliable and comfortable to carry. Mac

glockcop
09-08-2009, 02:14 AM
Nice kids! My dad was in the 3rd...... in Korea. As in Korean conflict. I've seen too many A.D.'s with the Glock. Not the Glocks fault, but if you are going to own a firearm, train with it. I prefer a ParaOrdnance, cocked and locked!


I've been training recruits for years and there are way more accidental discharges with the 1911 platform than with Glocks. In fact I won't authoriuzed new recruits to carry a 1911 on their off time. With a Glock even an idiot can learn to keep his finger off the trigger. With the 1911 there are plenty more variables to carry that weapon "ready to go". No offense Sarky but I ain't gonna agree with that. With a similar amount of training, 1911's are NOT as safe as a Glock! If you can handle a revolver safely than you can handle a Glock. The same is NOT true with a 1911. Now, back to reality, Tangofoxtrot, I prefere the Glock 19 or 23 because I feel that there is nothing more simple to train with, holds as many bullets for the size, is as easy to maintain or repair, is as light for the size, or more reliable. Did I mention the Glock has superior corrosion resistace to pretty much anything out there. The Glock is also uglier than any 1911. They really are butt nasty ugly IMO. Those 1911 guys just need to conceed to the fact that there are safer s/d pistols out there period! Again, No offense Sarky. Don't get me wrong, I like the 1911 platform. It is just not a pistol for someone who is not willing to dedicate their life to training. Just preaching what I've witnessed. Best.

Pal334
09-08-2009, 04:34 AM
Well Glock, I do have to say I disagree (shocking eh :) ) . The 1911 is as close to idiot proof as it gets (how do you think I can handle it). In over 30 years of usage, I have never viewed, heard of or had an accidental discharge with a 1911. Maybe it is the people I have been associated with, but I think not. The lack of bells and whistles makes it simple for a neophyte learn to handle. Not being argumentative. Just preaching what I've done.

EDIT: Out of fairness, I will say if I had "grown up" with the Glock series and had as little trouble as you, I may think differently.

Rick
09-08-2009, 06:35 AM
Step up to the XD platform. Even I can carry it safely.

Pal334
09-08-2009, 07:00 AM
Step up to the XD platform. Even I can carry it safely.

Are you advocating that I adopt this centuries technology? Shocking!!!!!

Rick
09-08-2009, 07:05 AM
Actually, it was a challenge to those silly Glock folks. Springfield has been through how many wars and Glock has been through...well, I rest my case.

Pal334
09-08-2009, 07:58 AM
Actually, it was a challenge to those silly Glock folks. Springfield has been through how many wars and Glock has been through...well, I rest my case.

Aaah, you know how kids are:). Besides if they did, would be boring. And you are right, it is a very good "warhorse"

Rick
09-08-2009, 08:10 AM
I think I'll stand back now. I may have yanked that chain a little hard.

glockcop
09-08-2009, 12:34 PM
Pal and Rick, I do give the 1911 props for being a great warhorse:clap:. I also believe that a Glock is every bit as reliable and more so than a loosly fitted G.I.1911. The last time I checked the Glock was in military service with more than a few countries around the world. I rest my case, also. The manual of arms is more complex with a 1911. Those are the facts guys. I, myself, was present for two accidental discharges in the Detectives Office when we were first authorized to carry 1911's. I also witnessed an A/D on the qualification range when an officer attempted to cock his loaded pistol for "cocked and locked" carry and his thumb slipped off the hammer before it was fully cocked. By the grace of God no body got hurt on any of the above occasions. These were G.I. Gov. surplus series 70 1911's that the Department got on a grant. Drop by sometime and I'll show you the bullet hole in the door frame of the bathroom and one other hole in the ceiling. These were not novice shooters. They were trained well but became careless with their series 70 1911's. Only series 80's are authorized now. The series 70 with a lack of an internal fireing pin safety are not as safe to handle as a Glock or other modern design pistol. If they were as safe as a more modern weapon why would they have changed the design slightly? TO MAKE IT MORE SAFE! :smash: I don't believe that the Springfield XD is a "step up" either. It is a Glock knock off that is a nice weapon in it's own right. I happen to like mine just fine. Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I guess. Ya'll are right. It would be no fun if we all agreed on everything all the time. Like I said before, "Just preaching what I've witnessed". Stay safe.

2dumb2kwit
09-08-2009, 12:47 PM
I also witnessed an A/D on the qualification range when an officer attempted to cock his loaded pistol for "cocked and locked" carry and his thumb slipped off the hammer before it was fully cocked.

Hmmmm....how did he get that round in there, without that thing being cocked?:innocent:

glockcop
09-08-2009, 01:10 PM
Hmmmm....how did he get that round in there, without that thing being cocked?:innocent:

Apparently he lowered the hammer then later wanted to carry it "cocked and locked". Not rocket science here.:)

Ole WV Coot
09-08-2009, 01:26 PM
I carried and used the 1911 and carried cocked & locked. Switched to the Beretta Cougar. I have never tried carrying a Glock, shot a few and went back to the Beretta. Personal choice and I have been carrying for 45yrs, never had a problem with cocked & locked so I guess I must be lucky??

glockcop
09-08-2009, 02:18 PM
Ole Coot, You are a product of disapline my friend, and maybe a little lucky too :). stay safe brother

Pal334
09-08-2009, 02:18 PM
I carried and used the 1911 and carried cocked & locked. Switched to the Beretta Cougar. I have never tried carrying a Glock, shot a few and went back to the Beretta. Personal choice and I have been carrying for 45yrs, never had a problem with cocked & locked so I guess I must be lucky??

May be a generational thing :)

glockcop
09-08-2009, 02:27 PM
Maybe so Pal....Maybe so.:wheelchair: Just playing.

Ole WV Coot
09-08-2009, 08:32 PM
Maybe so Pal....Maybe so.:wheelchair: Just playing.

Possible but not likely. Same with caliber. The 45 never let me down and what
I shot never complained. Wife's friend is a parole officer and carries a Glock 40, recommended by the state for her. She has very intensive training at the State Police Academy and then I show her what works best for her. At 5'3" and around 130 I seriously doubt if she really needs to practice one hand reload with both hands, just know how to Point Shoot with either hand, quickly and with a double tap. The weapon of choice around here is a 12ga and if a Glock will beat one then maybe........then again, NAH. I've already been drafted so
I don't need a high cap handgun. I carry a spare mag mainly to balance out the
walking stick which makes a darn good rest, then again maybe an RPG on each
side of my wheelchair...NAH, can't carry them cocked & locked so I quit. Beware
of old men when you're working youngster.:innocent:

glockcop
09-08-2009, 08:44 PM
Ole Coot, You "seaoned" gents get my utmost respect :). There is alot to be said for ya'll's life experience. That goes for you too, Pal. Keep on keeping on. I'm not all that far behind yall. Stay safe amigos.

P.S. I really like the .45 acp too. It is a wonderful s/d round. No argument from me on that.

glockcop
09-08-2009, 09:11 PM
Actually, it was a challenge to those silly Glock folks. Springfield has been through how many wars and Glock has been through...well, I rest my case.

Sorry Rick, Glocks are in military service right now in more than a few countries. It's earned it's badge of honor plus some. There are ALOT more Glocks in harms way worldwide than our vaunted 1911 or the Glock knock off Springfield XD which have been through exactly "0" wars :tongue_smilie:. Not much of a challenge there :). Just research it on Wikipedia. Scroll down to "Users" and check out all those flags. Each one of those countries (36) field the Glock. Challenge officially BUSTED! Nuff said.

lucznik
09-08-2009, 09:24 PM
I've owned a few Glocks including a 17, 23, 22, and 27.

I keep trying to like them, honest I do, but somehow I just can't manage it.

Sourdough
09-08-2009, 09:28 PM
Tools: G-20 & G-35 & Shopping for a G-24

sgtdraino
09-09-2009, 04:15 PM
My Glock 23 in .40 S&W, which I own, is my primary duty weapon.

I had a Glock 27 that was a sweet-shooting gun, that I originally got as a backup weapon for the 23. It proved a bit too heavy and bulky for my taste. I eventually sold it to get a Springfield XD Subcompact 9mm, a choice I do not regret.

I still remain a big fan of Glock, though.

I do not personally care for the 1911, I just don't like "cocked-and-locked" carry. Any safety can fail, and the 1911 is just a little too ready-to-fire for my taste.

However, as I say, that is mainly my personal preference, probably influenced by my own training and experienced.

I have never had a bad experience with a Glock, an XD, or a 1911.

2dumb2kwit
09-09-2009, 04:22 PM
Apparently he lowered the hammer then later wanted to carry it "cocked and locked". Not rocket science here.:)

I was just being a smart arse. It sounded to me like he was playing with it, and had an oops.:blushing:

glockcop
09-09-2009, 04:55 PM
I was just being a smart arse. It sounded to me like he was playing with it, and had an oops.:blushing:

Yep. A big ooops! He now carries a Glock 23 with Mepro Night Sights. Of course I think he made a great choice :clap:. Take care.

doug1980
09-09-2009, 04:57 PM
Now why in the world would I arm myself with a clock. :) Oh you said glock....oops. Nope never had one. I know they are good guns bud I prefer Taurus and Beretta.

glockcop
09-09-2009, 05:20 PM
Now why in the world would I arm myself with a clock. :) Oh you said glock....oops. Nope never had one. I know they are good guns bud I prefer Taurus and Beretta.

To each his own dude. You are none the less well armed. Stay safe.

Ole WV Coot
09-09-2009, 08:16 PM
I guess I might as well admit that practically every LEO I know carries a Glock because of the simplicity and ease of maintenance that many of them could care less about. If a handgun is a tool in your line of work you should know it inside and out. Glocks are very very low maintenance and I gotta admit I know a lot of folks like the parole officer I mentioned that could care less and will never think about cleaning it. Local LEOs like it for the same reason, and none of them are serious shooters. I won't switch but for the average LEO they seem to work and fill a need. Way back when a S&W 38, 4" bbl was issue I bought a few that had plenty of holster wear but never cleaned, probably never used. Just maybe the Glock will save some idiots life.

Pal334
09-09-2009, 08:42 PM
I guess I might as well admit that practically every LEO I know carries a Glock because of the simplicity and ease of maintenance that many of them could care less about. If a handgun is a tool in your line of work you should know it inside and out. Glocks are very very low maintenance and I gotta admit I know a lot of folks like the parole officer I mentioned that could care less and will never think about cleaning it. Local LEOs like it for the same reason, and none of them are serious shooters. I won't switch but for the average LEO they seem to work and fill a need. Way back when a S&W 38, 4" bbl was issue I bought a few that had plenty of holster wear but never cleaned, probably never used. Just maybe the Glock will save some idiots life.

You may well be correct, but I never allowed my folks to get lazy. A size 10 steel toe is an excellent motivator. Your gear and equipment gets serviced bfore chow or down time. Like my signature says: ...........

Sourdough
09-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Some here carry the G-20 for big brown fuzzy thingies. (BIGFOOTS)

glockcop
09-09-2009, 11:38 PM
You may well be correct, but I never allowed my folks to get lazy. A size 10 steel toe is an excellent motivator. Your gear and equipment gets serviced bfore chow or down time. Like my signature says: ...........

You are so right, Pal and Coot. I give Weapon Inspection from time to time on the street to any given officer on whim. I also inspect every weapon on the line before the officer qualifies. Our Patrol Sgt.'s give a bi monthly Weapon Inspection per Department P&P. You are not gonna find any cruddy weapons on our officers. Other Departments I've worked with through the years are a different story. I once pushed a 3" dust bunny out of the barrel of a Beretta 92fs that belonged to an officer from a neighboring department. Needless to say he got not trigger time on my line until it was properly cleaned and lubricated. He is a Reserve Officer and only works detail work at a Hospital. He sheepishly admitted to have not cleaned the gun for at least a year. That tells you how long it had been since he qualified. Jeeezzz, is that pathetic or what?!!! Like everybody at my present Department, their Officers now get to see my face three times yearly just like I require. I have never believed in a yearly qualification. I don't tolerate mediocrity when my officer's lives are on the line. Yall stay safe.

HOSSFLY
09-10-2009, 02:38 AM
Never owned or shot a Glock. I prefer FN 5.7x28 little gun big kaboom.

Ole WV Coot
09-10-2009, 09:07 AM
You are so right, Pal and Coot. I give Weapon Inspection from time to time on the street to any given officer on whim. I also inspect every weapon on the line before the officer qualifies. Our Patrol Sgt.'s give a bi monthly Weapon Inspection per Department P&P. You are not gonna find any cruddy weapons on our officers. Other Departments I've worked with through the years are a different story. I once pushed a 3" dust bunny out of the barrel of a Beretta 92fs that belonged to an officer from a neighboring department. Needless to say he got not trigger time on my line until it was properly cleaned and lubricated. He is a Reserve Officer and only works detail work at a Hospital. He sheepishly admitted to have not cleaned the gun for at least a year. That tells you how long it had been since he qualified. Jeeezzz, is that pathetic or what?!!! Like everybody at my present Department, their Officers now get to see my face three times yearly just like I require. I have never believed in a yearly qualification. I don't tolerate mediocrity when my officer's lives are on the line. Yall stay safe.

You do good. Wish more did and yearly qualification is a joke. I never understood how a person could ignore something that may save their or someones life. Keep up the good work maybe it will catch on.:clap:

sgtdraino
09-11-2009, 12:18 AM
You do good. Wish more did and yearly qualification is a joke. I never understood how a person could ignore something that may save their or someones life. Keep up the good work maybe it will catch on.:clap:

Ammunition is expensive, and unfortunately often times (especially in this economy) smaller departments simply don't have the budget to give their officers more practice ammo. Officers could buy their own practice ammo, if they can find some (good luck), and if they have the money in their own budget to spend on it. Even after that, it then becomes a matter of finding a place to shoot. Our local privately owned ranges don't do LEO discounts, and our official county range will not allow officers to practice there on their own time without a certified firearms instructor present.

Thankfully I have always been a natural marksman. I wish I could say the same for everyone.

Rick
09-11-2009, 07:52 AM
Actually, SgtD, I get what your saying. I wonder how many on this forum rely on their weapon for home defense yet haven't been to the range or cleaned their weapon in a year. This is one area where "use it or loose it" can have terrible repercussions.

peter nap
09-11-2009, 09:50 AM
Well. I carry a 1911 in the Burbs but still prefer a revolver in the sticks.

I did carry a Glock many years ago when my kids were small but had to get rid of it.

It shot well, was pretty well maintenance free and never gave any problems, but if I left the house in a hurry...I often picked up the kid water gun by mistake.:smash:

Ole WV Coot
09-11-2009, 12:17 PM
Actually, SgtD, I get what your saying. I wonder how many on this forum rely on their weapon for home defense yet haven't been to the range or cleaned their weapon in a year. This is one area where "use it or loose it" can have terrible repercussions.

Yep Rick you hit it. I haven't fired my usual 50 rounds a week, down from 50 every other day. What I do have I am conserving like most everyone else. If
someone broke in I sure would hate to waste the ammo.:sneaky2:

peter nap
09-11-2009, 10:56 PM
Ammunition is expensive, and unfortunately often times (especially in this economy) smaller departments simply don't have the budget to give their officers more practice ammo. Officers could buy their own practice ammo, if they can find some (good luck), and if they have the money in their own budget to spend on it. Even after that, it then becomes a matter of finding a place to shoot. Our local privately owned ranges don't do LEO discounts, and our official county range will not allow officers to practice there on their own time without a certified firearms instructor present.

Thankfully I have always been a natural marksman. I wish I could say the same for everyone.

That's always been a pet peeve of mine too. I not only shoot for sport, I also carry a gun for defense. Fortunately, I not only handload, I cast my own bullets also. I shoot at least 5 times a week, two of those being drills with my 1911.

I hardly ever shoot a lot at each sitting, I just try to improve each time. Today, I shot three magazines of 45ACP, 20 roundss of 45Colt and 20 rounds from my 25/06.

I don't think it's necessary for most people to do that...but they could at least go out once a month.

BTW, I am not a natural marksman...especially with a handgun. I have to shoot often or I lose some of my ability,

canid
09-12-2009, 05:59 AM
50rd/week would break my bank.

i don't get nearly enough time shooting but i don't think i could find that much ammo in my area.

crashdive123
09-12-2009, 06:12 AM
I had stopped shooting as much due to my own percieved fears/concerns about the ability to obtain ammunition. Now that I have addressed those concerns and am comfortable with the ammunition on hand, I do not let it drop below that level. Started shooting more frequently from my "surplus" and resupply that accordingly.

peter nap
09-12-2009, 07:41 AM
50rd/week would break my bank.
.

Start casting. It does wonders for the bank account!

Note for folks that are thinking about casting. Wheel weights are getting hard to find. In fact, the EPA is trying to get rid of lead everywhere. Time to grab everyone you can find and store them.

Ole WV Coot
09-12-2009, 09:27 AM
That's always been a pet peeve of mine too. I not only shoot for sport, I also carry a gun for defense. Fortunately, I not only handload, I cast my own bullets also. I shoot at least 5 times a week, two of those being drills with my 1911.

I hardly ever shoot a lot at each sitting, I just try to improve each time. Today, I shot three magazines of 45ACP, 20 roundss of 45Colt and 20 rounds from my 25/06.

I don't think it's necessary for most people to do that...but they could at least go out once a month.

BTW, I am not a natural marksman...especially with a handgun. I have to shoot often or I lose some of my ability,

I'm not a natural marksman either. I seldom fire any long guns just for practice. I carry a 45 also, don't shoot bullseye or much aimed shooting anymore. I have and do practice double tap point shooting with a few different handguns at whatever. I can walk outside and pick a small rock, throw a can really anything and simulated point shooting as double tap at a can, if I get good hits pick something else. I carry a Beretta Cougar 45, 38 S&W mod 60, sometimes Beretta Cougar mini 40 and a Walther PPK/S. Depending on where I might be going, always a walking stick, probably better
than a firearm so I burn a lot of powder. I don't reload now, gave everything to my son. I don't need a "formal" range as I live where I have blasted away
for years. I get or did get my ammo in bulk from a friend with an FFL who has
trouble getting ammo himself. I don't think you ever get good enough not to practice, personal opinion.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
09-12-2009, 09:44 AM
Huntin' season is here and it is when I get in most of my practice. This will be my first year huntin' deer with a handgun. Not saying practice isn't necassary but after huntin for 25+ most of my shooting is instinctual. Most practice I do is with the rifle at 100 yds. I just got my first real pistol, I had a peice of junk I was scared to handle as it is unsafe. When I bought my Colt.38 I took a walk out back and stabbed a broomstick in the ground and proceeded to chop into peices at 30yds. with a point and shoot fast draw. Haven't shot it since. It was a natural in my hand felt right with out even thinking about it.

peter nap
09-12-2009, 09:54 AM
Huntin' season is here and it is when I get in most of my practice. This will be my first year huntin' deer with a handgun. Not saying practice isn't necassary but after huntin for 25+ most of my shooting is instinctual. Most practice I do is with the rifle at 100 yds. I just got my first real pistol, I had a peice of junk I was scared to handle as it is unsafe. When I bought my Colt.38 I took a walk out back and stabbed a broomstick in the ground and proceeded to chop into peices at 30yds. with a point and shoot fast draw. Haven't shot it since. It was a natural in my hand felt right with out even thinking about it.

That's true for hunting and as long as I shoot a rifle well, it's OK. I do enjoy rifle shooting though. Handgun hunting is the same....

But defensive shooting is different. The memory muscles are different and it involves drawing and shooting which doesn't normally happen in the field.

I take that pretty seriously. I've been shot and don't plan on it happening again.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
09-12-2009, 10:10 AM
That's true for hunting and as long as I shoot a rifle well, it's OK. I do enjoy rifle shooting though. Handgun hunting is the same....

But defensive shooting is different. The memory muscles are different and it involves drawing and shooting which doesn't normally happen in the field.

I take that pretty seriously. I've been shot and don't plan on it happening again.

Agreed I will be going for my CCW soon and will probably need another pistol as the Colt is right around 12" long. I am sure the class and the pistol will require plenty of practice. Probably be seting up a pistol range at home as well.

2dumb2kwit
09-12-2009, 11:05 AM
Agreed I will be going for my CCW soon and will probably need another pistol as the Colt is right around 12" long. I am sure the class and the pistol will require plenty of practice. Probably be seting up a pistol range at home as well.

If the CC class is like the ones here, when you get to the shooting part, you'll look at the instructor, and ask if he is kidding. You can shoot what they want, with your eyes closed. LOL

If you can put rounds in a man size target, at 21', you're good to go. (As far as the cc class goes......I expect much more, from anyone who is a responsible person.)

...and yes, that was 21 feet, not yards! LOL

Rick
09-12-2009, 01:26 PM
When I went to the class here...oh, wait. We don't have to go to a class. That's right. We're an AMERICAN state. Just ask and you shall receive. That's what I'm talkin' about!

aflineman
09-12-2009, 01:31 PM
I really like the Glock 19, it just does not fit my hand well. Stone reliable, and I would never feel undergunned with one, but they are not my first choice.

Ole WV Coot
09-12-2009, 02:40 PM
That's true for hunting and as long as I shoot a rifle well, it's OK. I do enjoy rifle shooting though. Handgun hunting is the same....

But defensive shooting is different. The memory muscles are different and it involves drawing and shooting which doesn't normally happen in the field.

I take that pretty seriously. I've been shot and don't plan on it happening again.

Just one little thing, muscles don't have memories. You hone your reflexes, eye-hand co-ordination. That was the first thing that was pounded into me in martial arts or combat training. If I used a gun, knife, hands or feet I wasn't taught anything but how to win, guess that's outdated since somebody is teaching some combat system on every corner that you can't pronounce. I don't carry to hunt anymore, just for self defense and I have never pulled a gun in the states, hope I never will. Need to learn point, aimed, weak hand shooting, one hand reload, either hand, keep a full mag by changing if given the chance and much much more. Those old muscles don't know much, the brain has to tell them what to do.

mortars101
09-12-2009, 04:37 PM
its not so much muscle memory but doing the same thing over and over again i believe it takes the human bodyand mind at least two thousand repititions to automatically do that action i can vouch personally for it it saved my life many times in combat and ill believe it to the day they pry the gun out of my dead hands just my two cents mortarman out

mortars101
09-12-2009, 04:38 PM
im just saying practise practise practise

COWBOYSURVIVAL
09-12-2009, 04:43 PM
I guess that is what I am saying it is purely intinctual now very little thought required. Not taking away from practice but really guns feel like an extension of my hands.. Maybe since Dad started me at the range from almost birth it is just natural....

mortars101
09-12-2009, 04:48 PM
yep you are dead on

COWBOYSURVIVAL
09-12-2009, 04:53 PM
Ya'll got me wantin' to go test my theory on some paper now!

mortars101
09-12-2009, 04:58 PM
yep ill be shootin it up tommorow

canid
09-12-2009, 07:35 PM
its not so much muscle memory but doing the same thing over and over again...

i'm pretty sure that that is what muscle memory is.

TangoFoxtrot
09-13-2009, 05:27 AM
Actually, it was a challenge to those silly Glock folks. Springfield has been through how many wars and Glock has been through...well, I rest my case.

WOW Rick don't compare apples to oranges. First of all the XD's are a Glock ripoff ( I still like them anyway). Glocks are used by more nations in the world than any XD by far. When an XD can perform as well as a Glock in a torcher test and be as well excepted by the police and military markets...maybe it will earn more respect. ...so there!:boxer:

TangoFoxtrot
09-13-2009, 05:30 AM
im just saying practise practise practise


Absolutely correct!:clap: