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Rick
08-30-2009, 10:52 PM
I'm in the process of upgrading my medical kit and I want to upgrade my training as well. There are a lot of products on the market that, clearly, a layman has no business attempting to use. Things like cricothyrotomy kits, O2 administration, IV saline, etc.

However, I also know that, as rare as the need might be, someone's life could be saved if the person on hand had the training and tools to perform a more sophisticated intervention.

My first question is, at what point in First Responder or EMT training do those types of procedures get employed if they do at all.

I have had both first aid and CPR. Actually, I've been through several first aid classes and several CPR refresher classes but nothing beyond.

My second question is what classes should I be looking at for general knowledge and training with no end game intent to use it as an occupation. I just want the training to have the training.

Hopefully, this will help some others as well.
oldsoldier
08-31-2009, 08:10 PM
[QUOTE=Rick;150064] cricothyrotomy kits, O2 administration, IV saline, etc.



My first question is, at what point in First Responder or EMT training do those types of procedures get employed if they do at all.

Good question(s) Rick, Most of the Items you mention with the exception of O2 is administered my a paramedic or higher, The O2 can and is used by even people with little or no training. most of the others IV's etc. usually are used under the direction of a Dr.

I recommend EVERYONE take some training. Depending on your current level of training, I recommend since you already have some basic training to take a CERT course and a first responders course. In all liklyhood unless you really want to do so an EMT or paramedic course won't be needed as most cities have crews that will respond in very little time. It would also be a good idea to take a couple of advanced classes if they offer then in your area. Classes like wilderness rescue,or water rescue. Many areas have volenteer rescue teams/fire departments. That would love to have more members and will often provide training free to team members.
Rick
08-31-2009, 08:47 PM
I've actually been looking for a First Responder course. I figured in the absence of any other info that was as good a place to start as any.
catfish10101
09-01-2009, 12:28 AM
The first responder course is great, but for waht you are looking for, you will need at least, Basic paramedic. Probably better to go intermediate paramedic. First responder is basically First aid, cpr, aed, delivering a baby, putting in airways, etc. Mainly keeping the patient alive until paramedics arrive. Blood goes round and round, air goes in and out.....anything different is a problem.
Rick
09-01-2009, 12:30 AM
Blood goes round and round, air goes in and out.....anything different is a problem.

Oddly, I can keep that straight. There's hope (the feeling not the forum member).
Riverrat
09-01-2009, 09:21 AM
With the hiking you do, and being outdoors quite a bit, I would look at the Wilderness FR course, they teach the basics of FR level, with the added bonus of wilderness training. Here they are put on by both St. John Ambulance and Red Cross. Oxygen therapy is taught in the FR courses, but for IV u would have to go paramedic level, cricothyrotomy is a doc level, at least that is the way it is here.
Rick
09-01-2009, 08:39 PM
I'm not really looking to be able to do those things. They were just examples. It would be nice, of course, to have that kind of knowledge. My wife is an RN and she puts me to shame on the medical stuff. Sometimes I just get "the look" when I ask a question.:blushing:
mcfd45
09-03-2009, 12:14 PM
I would have to go ahead with the EMT basic course for most people. At the very least you have it to fall back on when your job goes.
Boker
09-03-2009, 05:30 PM
I'm in the process of upgrading my medical kit and I want to upgrade my training as well. There are a lot of products on the market that, clearly, a layman has no business attempting to use. Things like cricothyrotomy kits, O2 administration, IV saline, etc.

However, I also know that, as rare as the need might be, someone's life could be saved if the person on hand had the training and tools to perform a more sophisticated intervention.

My first question is, at what point in First Responder or EMT training do those types of procedures get employed if they do at all.

I have had both first aid and CPR. Actually, I've been through several first aid classes and several CPR refresher classes but nothing beyond.

My second question is what classes should I be looking at for general knowledge and training with no end game intent to use it as an occupation. I just want the training to have the training.

Hopefully, this will help some others as well.


I'm currently a RN (ICU). Started as an EMT-Basic and worked my way through the levels to Paramedic (Currently Expired) prior to attending RN school. That stated, lets see if I can answer the questions.

My first question is, at what point in First Responder or EMT training do those types of procedures get employed if they do at all.

Oxygen delivery begins at the EMT-Basic level unless they have expanded the 1st responder roles in the last couple of years. Hard to go wrong with oxygen in the field. There are some contraindications, but 99% of the time its safe. EMT-Intermediates are introduced to advance airway management (Intubation) and IV therapy as well as D50 and Narcan. Paramedics are exposed to emergency procedures, IE tracheotomies and needle decompression, both useful but rarely required. (The skills vary by state.)

Something to consider about the 'advanced' stuff, that if you can't get the patient to a definitive care facility somewhat quick the procedures only delays the outcome. For example if you know how to do a tracheostomy with a pocket knife and a bic pen, how do you plan to ventilate the patient or deliver oxygen. Mouth to pen might seem like a good idea at first.....

My second question is what classes should I be looking at for general knowledge and training with no end game intent to use it as an occupation. I just want the training to have the training.

Thats a damn good question I had never thought about. I started EMT-Basic training when I was 19, so until I graduated RN school it was all I knew for the most part. I'm not sure if any resources exist beyond CPR/First Aid. There are several things I can think of that probably aren't covered in basic first aid that would be useful for folks to know. (The proper field dressing for a sucking chest wound comes to mind.) Perhaps we should start up a survival first aid course.

Taking a EMT-Basic class seems like overkill for what you want and underkill for what you 'need' (YMMV). So much of the EMT world revolves around extraction from vehicles that most people will never need. And it can be summed up: if the scene is safe leave the patient in place, if the scene isn't safe, why are you there?

I've rambled enough. PM if there are any more questions and I'll try to help.
Rick
09-03-2009, 05:38 PM
No ramble as far as I'm concerned. Good info and I appreciate it. I've always thought I had the first aid side of the house covered...until recently. Lately, I've been thinking that a glorified first aid kit might not cut it if something serious were to happen. Even just out in the woods. Broken bones, severe lacerations, water borne illness, etc. are really not covered well with a glorified first aid kit, IMHO.

Let me ask a follow up question. There must be some governing body that tells a community or private business what equipment an EMT should carry. I've been scouring the net but can't seem to find an official list. Can someone point me to that type of document on the internet? I know some things probably can't be acquired without a prescription but I'd like to see the list then decide on what would be right for me.

Thanks to everyone that has responded!!!
Boker
09-03-2009, 05:54 PM
There is a list of links at that bottom:http://www.ok.gov/health/Protective_Health/Emergency_Medical_Services/Emergency_Medical_Service_Rules,_Regulations_&_Protocols/index.html
Rick
09-03-2009, 06:00 PM
State Departments (head slap). Sweet! Thanks!!!!
oldsoldier
09-03-2009, 06:05 PM
Rick don't know if this is what your looking for....
www.dhs.state.tx.us/emstraumasystems/EMSEquipmentListDraft1.pdf
It may help
Rick
09-03-2009, 06:07 PM
Apparently not. I have to log in to access it.
oldsoldier
09-03-2009, 06:10 PM
If that don't help try googleing EMS equipment protocols
Boker
09-03-2009, 06:11 PM
Just FYI, they rarely take the keys out of the ambulance when parked at the hospital. Just saying....
Rick
09-03-2009, 06:12 PM
Hmmmm. I'll be right back (going to measure garage).......
hound
09-06-2009, 10:58 PM
Look into the Army Combat Lifesaver course. I have taken it twice. It teaches how to deal with many types of injuries. Also both times I took the course we did I.V. training. They aren't hard when someone teaches you how and when to use them. We all stuck another soldier and all of us were stuck by a random classmate. Great training.
Rick
09-06-2009, 11:08 PM
Where did you take the course at? On base?
Rick
09-06-2009, 11:19 PM
Looks like that class is being revised:

http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/09/01/26834-army-to-assess-revise-combat-lifesaver-training/
hound
09-07-2009, 10:00 AM
Yes I took that course on base. The I.V. training was exellent and I used it in the desert. Proper use of pressure dressings and turniquet were equally important. The I.V. comes after controling bleeding. I'm suprised the Army is going away from the c.l.s useing I.Vs.
tacmedic
09-07-2009, 10:08 AM
Rick, I agree with the others here that have said a wilderness FR or wilderness EMT course would probably be the best way to go. With the FR course you will learn basic splinting, bleeding control (when to use and when not to use a tourniquet), oxygen administration, and how to take vital signs etc. Most states courses require you to do some ride along time with an ambulance crew even for first responder, which can get you some valuable experience.
Justin Case
04-13-2011, 11:42 AM
Bump,,, sorry, I know its old,, but its a great thread,, Are your medical supplies up to date ? have you considered taking the first responder course ? I believe it only took two days if I remember right,,, Its a great class !
welderguy
04-13-2011, 12:00 PM
In Dallas Texas Baylor offers an emt course and its only a 30 day course plus er and ambulance rotations. When I certified many moon's ago it was a 4 month course. First responder used to be a 30 day course, now its like a week and uoa half.
Justin Case
04-13-2011, 12:03 PM
Yeah,, way back when,,, I was a Firefighter and our class was private,, (given by one of the Medics) ,, I think there were maybe 6-8 of us,,, so we blew threw it pretty fast....
carbean
04-14-2011, 02:49 AM
The definitive references for lifesaving interventions would be Tintinalli's Emergency Medicine and Paul Auerbach's Wilderness Medicine. They are expensive. Maybe your wife could find an older edition at a hospital library. Some libraries give away older editions when replaced by newer. These, esp the Tintinalli's are probably beyond the scope of a lay person. But the Wilderness medicine has all kinds of cool stuff in it. Not recommending you try to practice anything you read about there, but I can imagine circumstances, though rare, under which a resourceful person with at least a theoretical understanding of the how's and why's could save a life. Just my $0.02.
Galong
04-14-2011, 06:03 AM
Hey Rick,

What are the sorts of emergencies you might come across in your environment? What sort of activities? Are you outside in all weather conditions?

This is right up my alley as I run school group trips as the main part of my business and have had to get all sort of certifications to do so. I'm not sure about what all is available where you're located, but the EFR course is certainly one of the best. It's been available over here from time to time, but never when I was available, so I went with the Emergency First Response instructor-level course. You can probably get this through any PADI dive shop (I'm guessing there are plenty in Indiana... grin). If there actually are some dive shops there, you might consider their life guard course.

The Brits have a wonderful organization called ITC (Immediate Temporary Care) and took that three-day course a while ago... very worthwhile. Rescue 3 International is another good one.

A lot of these organizations have manuals that you can probably buy without actually taking the course. That's part of the reason why I listed them.

I would also concentrate on the mental side of rescuing. If you're rescuing a friend or family, you've got to be totally removed from what you're witnessing and just go with your training. A good book for that, though not directly related to it, is Deep Survival by Laurence Gonzales. It deals with the mental side of survival, but you could adapt it to emergency medical situations as well.

Lastly, check out the bandages at http://ps-med.com/products/detail.php?p=20 This is the site that has a lot of military-quality medical supplies.
Justin Case
04-14-2011, 08:48 AM
all comments removed

Pretty Damn childish to remove all you comments because of one disagreement
finallyME
04-14-2011, 10:17 AM
Old thread, but I have found a website that shows an advanced kit that is way beyond my skill level. It will at least provide food for thought.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQkfgcCv-Ek&feature=player_detailpage


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIKbxDXeJSs&feature=player_detailpage
lacigreshe
05-27-2011, 04:52 PM
Congratulations-I always love it when others try to further their training in basic survival and first aid. Your wife may be able to help with this but what about an advanced CPR course? There is a training for a certification called ACLS, that might be helpful. Sounds similar to the Army Combat course.
carbean
05-29-2011, 06:42 AM
I think I might have found what you are looking for, Prehospital Trauma Life Support (PHTLS). I would take a BLS course first though. I don't think ACLS would be much help. It is mainly for in hospital resuscitation and is heavily focused on cardiac drugs.
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Hugo (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/635711)Бирю (http://habituate.ru/t/671386)Mine (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/352789)Dash (http://hackworker.ru/t/662396)Wait (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/626474)Mind (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/627427)Wash (http://hailsquall.ru/t/139849)серт (http://hairysphere.ru/t/449618)Neut (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561253)Nive (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562057)Free (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/562367)Nick (http://haltstate.ru/t/449660)серт (http://handcoding.ru/t/570774)Загр (http://handportedhead.ru/t/831025)Dove (http://handradar.ru/t/561618)
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Gonz (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/638183)Zone (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/609769)John (http://kentishglory.ru/t/654095)Зеле (http://kerbweight.ru/t/372208)Fili (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/358359)Иван (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/327899)Tobi (http://keyserum.ru/t/653682)tapa (http://kickplate.ru/t/157708)кара (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/604698)кара (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/605532)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/608803)разр (http://kinozones.ru/film/8727)Miyo (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/610726)02-1 (http://kneejoint.ru/t/604836)Zone (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/611464)
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влия (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/295229)Rhod (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/340141)XVII (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/474141)Tric (http://lamphouse.ru/t/527269)Alic (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/457190)Emma (http://lancingdie.ru/t/261997)Черн (http://landingdoor.ru/t/379519)комп (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/671989)Иога (http://landreform.ru/t/669596)Anwo (http://landuseratio.ru/t/456151)*ыжи (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/675852)поло (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1162285)фарф (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1536758)меся (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/631)изме (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/591277)
yellowcab
05-03-2026, 04:05 PM
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Каза (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1176567)соци (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1174119)Jame (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1543647)Прив (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1543134)Andr (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/597077)Голу (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/839100)McDo (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1075157)Vale (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1080464)Rich (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/357651)Hits (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/511275)бизн (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/635652)цело (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/903917)чита (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1041632)Мике (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1296645)Ceci (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/1213853)
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*нто (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1494902)Ther (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1498924)авто (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1498892)учит (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1616739)Бара (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1446559)Т*Ки (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1493719)Arth (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/364338)Пикв (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/402890)Агаф (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/405125)рабо (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1692521)меся (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/631)меся (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/631)меся (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/631)Skin (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/485093)Alex (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/496211)
изда (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/500469)Пиво (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/504768)Ники (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/489737)Smok (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/501253)Сухо (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1848886)Кост (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1898522)Чере (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1918624)Пара (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/792214)Nanc (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/887741)Дмит (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/982922)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Кала (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/983339)Aesc (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/485491)