View Full Version : Freed Lockerbie Bomber Jets Back To Libya
WTH? :sneaky2:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32487856/ns/world_news-terrorism?GT1=43001
Pal334
08-20-2009, 12:39 PM
Oh Ken,, he is being shown all the tender mercy that he extended to his victims. He deserves treatment for his prostate cancer, perhaps ground glass in place of the radiation pellets in his prostrate? Just saying .......
Un&%@#*#%believable! :sneaky2:
Jonesy
08-20-2009, 12:47 PM
compassion????? for that scumbag??????
http://www.smileyshut.com/smileys/new/Battle/microwave.gif (http://www.smileyshut.com/Smileys/Smiley-Huts-Free-Battle-Smileys.html)
Pal334
08-20-2009, 12:54 PM
And it is UK law. Compassionate releases are condoned and authorized for terminal illness. At the risk of being rude COMPASSIONATE RELEASE THIS!!!
SARKY
08-20-2009, 01:01 PM
I say we operate on his cancer, fill his guts with a pound or 2 of C-4 & a remote detonator, along with a listening device, and send him on his merry way. Then we listen in and when he getting the slaps on the back for his terrorist buddies.......detonate!
Just my 2 cents
Jonesy
08-20-2009, 01:13 PM
For his safety I say we put him in this tank :sneaky2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCmSs6hXWoU
it's an old video but one I have always enjoyed
He was given a life sentence. He was expected to die in prison. So he has cancer. That's certainly one way to die in prison. I say bring him back....a piece at a time.
Stony
08-20-2009, 02:35 PM
it still is not clear IF he was the 'bomber'.
according to some EU and Canadian newspaper/stations he was the fall guy.
the real bomber(s) got away, the UK needed to show some results.
if it comes to torturing prisoners as some of you suggest:
our great country is very quick to do so, as recent cases show.
Jonesy
08-20-2009, 02:39 PM
it still is not clear IF he was the 'bomber'.
according to some EU and Canadian newspaper/stations he was the fall guy.
the real bomber(s) got away, the UK needed to show some results.
if it comes to torturing prisoners as some of you suggest:
our great country is very quick to do so, as recent cases show.
Please...enlighten me :munchies::pepsi:
Pal334
08-20-2009, 02:43 PM
it still is not clear IF he was the 'bomber'.
according to some EU and Canadian newspaper/stations he was the fall guy.
the real bomber(s) got away, the UK needed to show some results.
if it comes to torturing prisoners as some of you suggest:
our great country is very quick to do so, as recent cases show.
Huuh? That must have been quite the revelation to you. You must have missed the years and years of court manuvering etc. If they (media)only suggests something it is because that don't know. A legal court of law and the evidence found him guilty. Quick to tourture? Not quick, but it has been done. Life sucks, hopefully the lapse has been corrected . You mention recent cases, any examples other than the innuendo you may have heard on a radio program or newspaper?
Pal334
08-20-2009, 02:45 PM
Please...enlighten me :munchies::pepsi:
Yes Jonesy, I to eagerly await his enlightenment
http://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ftl-fairy-tales-book.jpg
Winnie
08-20-2009, 03:07 PM
And it is UK law. Compassionate releases are condoned and authorized for terminal illness. At the risk of being rude COMPASSIONATE RELEASE THIS!!!
At the risk of being ruder. Note what country he was tried by and imprisoned in, a clue it begins with an S and is north of England.
Oh and it's not UK law. It's...... Scottish. Different system.
It's...... Scottish. Different system.
Don't they eat HAGGIS there? :sneaky2: Tony UK?
Winnie
08-20-2009, 03:18 PM
Don't they eat HAGGIS there? :sneaky2: Tony UK?
Yup!:blushing::innocent:
Pal334
08-20-2009, 03:31 PM
wychwood, I stand corrected. THat is what haste does. My apologies
Winnie
08-20-2009, 06:21 PM
wychwood, I stand corrected. THat is what haste does. My apologies
Accepted Pal:)
Personally I prefer your interpretation of life imprisonment. Over here life can be as little as 15yrs time served.
rebel
08-21-2009, 12:05 AM
A "heros welcome".
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32487856/ns/world_news-terrorism/
Another sign?
mountain mama
08-21-2009, 10:04 AM
Hey Stony, I am personally all in favor of torturing terrorists. Unfortunately, what you consider torture and what I consider torture appear to be two very different things. So far, our government has proven to be pansy-arses incapable of bestowing a fitting punishment upon those who kill and terrorize others.
I just wish there had been a few snipers in place for his landing in Libya.
2dumb2kwit
08-21-2009, 10:10 AM
Hey Stony, I am personally all in favor of torturing terrorists. Unfortunately, what you consider torture and what I consider torture appear to be two very different things. So far, our government has proven to be pansy-arses incapable of bestowing a fitting punishment upon those who kill and terrorize others.
I just wish there had been a few snipers in place for his landing in Libya.
Alright, MM......that did it! I think I love you! LOL:clap:
*now on phone calling 2dumb's 12 - 14 year "not my wife"* :phone:
Pal334
08-21-2009, 10:33 AM
Hey Stony, I am personally all in favor of torturing terrorists. Unfortunately, what you consider torture and what I consider torture appear to be two very different things. So far, our government has proven to be pansy-arses incapable of bestowing a fitting punishment upon those who kill and terrorize others.
I just wish there had been a few snipers in place for his landing in Libya.
MM,,, such shocking, non politically correct thoughts!!!! It should be very "expensive" to try to "sucker punch" society and cause death and injury to our population. A little squeeze, here and there should do just fine :)
A little squeeze, here and there should do just fine :)
I agree!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4B6BR9aWHAk/SLBf_b1crBI/AAAAAAAAAuE/ioYYqbjpFNk/s400/Inside+the+Crocodile+(+Not+for+Weak+Hearted+People +)2.jpg
mountain mama
08-21-2009, 10:44 AM
They don't give a second thought to decapitating anyone they can get their paws on, yet our liberal media cries foul over something so mundane as water-boarding??? PULEEEZ! I think we need to send MORE media into Iraq and Afganistan, then see what they choose to report (if they can do so without their heads).
Tony uk
08-21-2009, 03:31 PM
Hes basicaly the walking dead anyway,,,,i think that releaseing him back to his own country was a good idea, NOT to make him happy, but mearly because what is the point in us, the taxpayer, paying for a dieing man to stay in our prisons, and to recieve our medical care.
Tony uk
08-21-2009, 03:36 PM
Don't they eat HAGGIS there? :sneaky2: Tony UK?
Why, ofcourse :D And several other great foods (and drinks) !
2dumb2kwit
08-21-2009, 03:42 PM
Hes basicaly the walking dead anyway,,,,i think that releaseing him back to his own country was a good idea, NOT to make him happy, but mearly because what is the point in us, the taxpayer, paying for a dieing man to stay in our prisons, and to recieve our medical care.
What is the point? How about principles......or maybe the rule of law?:sneaky2:
crashdive123
08-21-2009, 04:08 PM
Hes basicaly the walking dead anyway,,,,i think that releaseing him back to his own country was a good idea, NOT to make him happy, but mearly because what is the point in us, the taxpayer, paying for a dieing man to stay in our prisons, and to recieve our medical care.
I'm afraid I must disagree with you my friend. He went home to a heroes welcome. IMO he should have died alone, in solitary confinement and recieved no medical treatment. He was given a sentence that was supposed to have him locked up until he died. That was too kind IMO. He should have had no human interaction, no happy times - just a sad pathetic death for a sub-human piece of garbage. Instead, he is being treated as a returning conquering hero instead of the scum bag that he is.
Tony uk
08-21-2009, 04:18 PM
I'm afraid I must disagree with you my friend. He went home to a heroes welcome. IMO he should have died alone, in solitary confinement and recieved no medical treatment. He was given a sentence that was supposed to have him locked up until he died. That was too kind IMO. He should have had no human interaction, no happy times - just a sad pathetic death for a sub-human piece of garbage. Instead, he is being treated as a returning conquering hero instead of the scum bag that he is.
I agree with you crash,that him comming home to a heros welcome was absolutely disgracefull. However, that was out of our governments control. The only part that i believe made sense was releaseing him from our duty of care. I in no way condone his treatment as a hero whatsoever.
Tony uk
08-21-2009, 04:22 PM
What is the point? How about principles......or maybe the rule of law?:sneaky2:
Yes, but his release was completely legal. If we where to change our laws souly for him, then others, in the same circumstances, but with far less serious crimes under their belts would also be denied the right to be released.
crashdive123
08-21-2009, 04:24 PM
Tony - according to your law, the judge did not have to release him. He went against the advice of prosecuters and victims families to do so. That, in and of itself is an injustice IMO.
Hes basicaly the walking dead anyway,,,,i think that releaseing him back to his own country was a good idea, NOT to make him happy, but mearly because what is the point in us, the taxpayer, paying for a dieing man to stay in our prisons, and to recieve our medical care.
Tony, let me give you 270 reasons why I disagree.
The Victims
Pan Am Flight 103 Crew
Avonye, Nichole Elizabeth, flight attendant, 44 years, born 05.05.44, Croissy-Sur-Seine, France, French
Avritt, Jerry Don, flight engineer, 46 years, born 30.07.42, Westminster, California, American
Berti, Noelle Lydie, flight attendant, 40 years, born 24.12.47, Paris, France, American
Engstrom, Siv Ulla, flight attendant, 51 years, born 21.09.37, Berkshire, England, Swedish
Franklin, Stacie Denise, flight attendant, 20 years, born 16.02.68, San Diego, California, American
Garrett, Paul Isaac, flight attendant, 41 years, born 16.11.47, Napa, California, American
Kuehne, Elke Etha, flight attendant, 43 years, born 17.03.45, Hanover, Germany, German
Larracoechea, Maria Nieves, flight attendant, 39 years, born 03.03.49, Madrid, Spain, Spanish
MacQuarrie, James Bruce, captain, 55 years, born 30.09.33, Kensington, New Hampshire, American
McAlolooy, Lilibeth Tobila, flight attendant, 27 years, born 02.11.61, Kelsterback, Germany, American
Murphy, Mary Geraldine, purser, 51 years, born 14.05.37, Middlesex, England, British
Reina, Jocelyn, flight attendant, 26 years, born 26.05.62, Isleworth, England, American
Royal, Myra Josephine, flight attendant, 30 years, born 20.12.58, London, England, American
Skabo, Irja Syhnove, flight attendant, 38 years, born 03.07.50, Oslo, Norway, American
Velimirovich, Milutin, chief purser, 35 years, born 14.10.53, Middlesex, England, American
Wagner, Raymond Ronald, first officer, 52 years, born 18.01.36, Pennington, New Jersey, American
Pan Am Flight 103 Passengers
Ahern, John Michael Gerard, bond broker, 26 years, born 16.04.62, Rockville Center, New York, American, Seat Number 30C
Aicher, Sarah Margaret, playwright, 29 years, born 09.02.59, London, England, American, Seat Number 46C
Akerstrom, John David, 34 years, born 20.05.54, Medina, Ohio, American, Seat Number 25A
Alexander, Ronald Ely, businessman, 46 years, born 15.07.42, New York, New York, Swiss, seat number 42C
Ammerman, Thomas Joseph, marketing manager, 36 years, born 06.08.52, Old Tappan, New Jersey, American, seat number 16E
Apfelbaum, Martin Lewis, stamp dealer, 59 years, born 16.08.29, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 15H
Asrelsky, Rachel Marie, student, 21 years, born 26.11.67, New York, New York, American, seat number 38D
Atkinson, William Garretson III, engineer, 33 years, born 18.08.55, London, England, American, seat number 15A
Atkinson, Judith Ellen, art historian and consultant, 37 years, born 18.01.51, London, England, American, seat number 15B
Bacciochi, Clare Louise, hair stylist, 19 years, born 15.03.69, Warwickshire, England, British, seat number 50K
Bainbridge, Harry Michael, attorney, 34 years, born 16.11.54, Montrose, New York, American, seat number 4B
Barclay, Stuart Murray, businessman, 29 years, born 28.11.59, Farm Barnard, Vermont, Canadian, seat number 18G
Bell, Jean Mary, 44 years, born 16.03.44, Berkshire, England, British, seat number 5A
Benello, Julian MacBain, student, 25 years, born 28.12.62, Brookline, Massachusetts, American, seat number 23H
Bennett, Lawrence Ray, pharmaceutical chemist, 41 years, born 05.11.47, Chelsea, Michigan, American, seat number 15J
Bergstrom, Philip Vernon, army sergeant, 22 years, born 21.12.66, Forest Lake, Minnesota, American, seat number 46A
Berkley, Alistair David, professor of law, 29 years, born 11.04.59, London, England, American
Bernstein, Michael Stuart, lawyer, U.S. Dept. of Justice, Office of Special Investigation, 36 years, born 03.07.52, Bethesda, Maryland, American, seat number 47D
Berrell, Steven Russell, student, 2O years, born 19.06.68, Fargo, North Dakota, American, seat number 46F
Bhatia, Surinder Mohan, businessman, 51 years, born 21.05.37, Los Angeles, California, American, seat number 34D
Bissett, Kenneth John, student, 21 years, born 19.12.67, Hartsdale, New York, American, seat number 31J
Boatman-Fuller, Diane Anne, playwright, 37 years, born 08.01.53, London, England, American, seat number 22H
Boland, Stephen John, student, 20 years, born 28.09.68, Nashua, New Hampshire, American, seat number 46 G
Bouckley, Glen John, sales, 27 years, born 24.02.61, Liverpool, New York, British, seat number 39K
Bouckley, Paula Marie, sales, 29 years, born 14.10.59, Liverpool, New York, American, seat number 39J
Boulanger, Nicole Elise, student, 21 years, born 28.10.67, Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, American, seat number 28B
Boyer, Francis, 43 years, born 22.06.45, Toulosane, France, French, seat number 9A
Bright, Nicholas, businessman, 32 years, born 29.08.56, Brookline, Massachusetts, American, seat number 13A
Browner (Bier), Daniel Solomon, 23 years, born 20.08.65, Parod, Israel, Israeli, seat number 21A
Brunner, Colleen Renee, student, 20 years, born 01.04.68, Hamburg, New York, American, seat number 44C
Burman, Timothy Guy, banker, 24 years, born 09.10.64, London, England, British, seat number 38G
Buser, Michael Warren, advertising executive, 34 years, born 08.08.54, Ridgefield Park, New Jersey, American, seat number 35B
Buser, Warren Max, civil engineer, 62 years, born 22.09.26, Glen Rock, New Jersey, American, seat number 35A
Butler, Steven Lee, teacher, 35 years, born 30.08.53, Denver, Colorado, American, seat number 36G
Cadman, William Martin, musician, 32 years, born 10.09.56, London, England, British, seat number 29J
Caffarone, Fabiana, 28 years, born 30.09.60, London, England, British, seat number 7B
Caffarone, Hernan, 28 years, born14.12.60, London, England, Argentinean, seat number 7A
Canady, Valerie, auditor, 25 years, born 29.06.63, Morgantown, West Virginia, American, seat number 24K
Capasso, Gregory, student, 21 years, born 12.12.67, Brooklyn, New York, American, seat number 48H
Cardwell, Timothy Michael, student, 21 years, born 05.07.67, Cresco, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 37D
Carlsson, Bernt Wilmar, diplomat, 50 years, born 21.11.38, New York, New York, Swedish, seat number 17H
Cawley, Richard Anthony, businessman, 43 years, born 09.07.45, New York, New York, American, seat number 16J
Ciulla, Frank, banker, 45 years, born 06.08.43, Park Ridge, New Jersey, American, seat number 11B
Cohen, Theodora Eugenia, student, 20 years, born 10.09.68, Port Jervis, New York, American, seat number 21H
Coker, Eric Michael, student, 20 years, born 23.04.68, Mendham, New Jersey, American, seat number 43B
Coker,Jason Michael, student, 20 years, born 23.04.68, Mendham, New Jersey, American, seat number 43A
Colasanti, Gary Leonard, student, 20 years, born 01.08.68, Melrose, Massachusetts, American, seat number 43C
Concannon, Bridget, 53 years, born 13.07.35, Oxfordshire, England, Irish, seat number 33H
Concannon, Sean, 16 years, born 18.02.72, Oxfordshire, England, British, seat number 33J
Concannon, Thomas, 51 years, born 21.11.37, Oxfordshire, England, Irish, seat number 33G
CONTINUED................
Corner, Tracey Jane, 17 years, born 04.05.71, Sheffield, England, British, seat number 33A
Cory, Scott, student, 20 years, born 27.09.68, Old Lyme Court, Connecticut, American, seat number 46D
Coursey, Willis Larry, military, 40 years, born 25.08.48, San Antonio, Texas, American, seat number 36K
Coyle, Patricia Mary, student, 20 years, born 04.06.68, Wallingford, Connecticut, American, seat number 20B
Cummock, John Binning, 38 years, born 31.05.50, Coral Gables, Florida, American, seat number 3A
Curry, Joseph Patrick, army captain, 31 years, born 21.03.57, Fort Devens, Massachusetts, American, seat number 44K
Daniels, William, Allen, research chemist, 40 years, born 28.03.48, Belle Mead, New Jersey, American, seat number 9H
Dater, Gretchen Joyce, student, 20 years, born 17.05.68, Ramsey, New Jersey, American, seat number 52J
Davis, Shannon, student, 19 years, born 19.02.69, Shelton, Connecticut, American, seat number 31A
Della-Ripa, Gabriel, Pan Am Airlines employee, 46 years, born 03.04.42, Floral Park, New York, Italian, seat number 2B
DiMauro, Joyce Christine, marketing director, 32 years, born 09.05.56, New York, New York, American, seat number 11J
DiNardo, Gianfranca, 26 years, born 14.10.62, London, England, Italian, seat number 20C
Dix, Peter Thomas Stanley, management consultant, 35 years, born 06.05.53, London, England, Irish, seat number 14B
Dixit, Om, college professor, 54 years, born 29.12.33, Fairborn, Ohio, Indian, seat number 24A
Dixit, Shanti, 54 years, born 14.12.34, Fairborn, Ohio, American, seat number 24B
Dornstein, David Scott, student, 25 years, born 03.04.63, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 40K
Doyle, Michael Joseph, accountant, 30 years, born 21.05.58, Voorhees, New Jersey, American, seat number 9B
Eggleston, Edgar Howard III, air force sergeant, 24 years, born 13.10.64, Glens Falls, New York, American, seat number 32D
Ergin, Turhan, student, 22 years, born 14.05.66, West Hartford, Connecticut, American, seat number 28C
Fisher, Charles Thomas IV, banker, 34 years, born 24.12.53, London, England, American, seat number 25K
Flick, Clayton Lee, businessman, 25 years, born 23.02.63, Coventry, England, British, seat number 50J
Flynn, John Patrick, student, 21 years, born 24.11.67, Montville, New Jersey, American, seat number 45A
Fondiler, Arthur, attorney, 33 years, born 12.12.55, West Armonk, New York, American, seat number 47C
Fortune, Robert Gerard, insurance executive, 40 years, born 24.07.48, Jackson Heights, New York, American, seat number 1A
Freeman, Paul Matthew Stephen, 25 years, born 02.04.63, London, England, Canadian, Seat Number 46B
Fuller, James Ralph, corporate vice president, 50 years, born 17.09.38, Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, America, seat number 3H
Gabor, Ibolya Robertine, 79 years, born 14.06.09, Budapest, Hungary, Hungarian, seat number 26F
Gallagher, Amy Beth, student, 22 years, born 30.08.66, Pointe Claire, Quebec, Canada, American, seat number 23G
Gannon, Matthew Kevin, foreign service officer, 34 years, born 11.08.54, Los Angeles, California, American, seat number 14J
Garczynski, Kenneth Raymond, industrial engineer, 37 years, born 17.10.51, North Brunswick, New Jersey, American, seat number 47K
Gibson, Kenneth James, army specialist four, 20 years, born 16.02.68, Romulus, Michigan, American, seat number 48K
Giebler, William David, bond broker, 29 years, born 08.07.59, London, England, American, seat number 30B
Gordon, Olive Leonora, 25 years, born 09.03.63, London, England, British, seat number 45G
Gordon-Gorgacz, Linda Susan, 39 years, born 15.09.49, London, England, American, seat number 37A
Gorgacz, Anne Madelene, 76 years, born 27.09.12, Newcastle, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 38A
Gorgacz, Loretta Anne, 47 years, born 15.03.41, Newcastle, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 37B
Gould, David, college professor, 45 years, born 03.01.43, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 22C
Guevorgian, Andre Nikolai, businessman, 32 years, born 11.11.56, Sea Cliff, New York, American, seat number 11A
Hall, Nicola Jane, 23 years, born 03.02.65, Sandton, South Africa, South African, seat number 23K
Halsch, Lorraine Frances, special education teacher, 31 years, born 06.11.57, Fairport, New York, American, seat number 35C
Hartunian, Lynne Carol, student, 21 years, born 13.03.67, Schenectady, New York, American, seat number 44A
Hawkins, Anthony Lacey, businessman, 57 years, born 13.11.31, Brooklyn, New York, British, seat number 28K
Herbert, Pamela Elaine, student, 19 years, born 27.03.69, Battle Creek, Michigan, American, seat number 37J
Hilbert, Rodney Peter, 40 years, born 19.07.48, Newton, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 16H
Hill, Alfred, 29 years, born 29.06.59, Sonthofen, Germany, German, seat number 14A
Hollister, Katherine Augusta, student, 20 years, born 26.08.68, Rego Park, New York, American, seat number 54C
Hudson, Josephine Lisa, nurse, 22 years, born 14.05.66, London, England, British, seat number 50D
Hudson, Melina Kristina, student, 16 years, born 25.01.72, Albany, New York, seat number American 29A
Hudson, Sophie Ailette Miriam, 26 years, born 22.09.62, Paris, France, French, seat number 29H
Hunt, Karen Lee, student, 20 years, born 07.01.68, Webster, New York, American, seat number 31K
Hurst, Roger Elwood, marketing manager, 38 years, born 12.07.50, Ringwood, New Jersey, American, seat number 2H
Ivell, Elizabeth Sophie, dog handler, 19 years, born 21.04.69, East Sussex, England, British, seat number 19C
Jaafar, Khalid Nazir, student, 20 years, born 01.05.68, Dearborn, Michigan, American, seat number 53K
Jeck, Robert van Houten, 57 years, born 08.10.31, Mountain Lakes, New Jersey, American, seat number 4J
Jeffreys, Paul Avron, musician, 36 years, born 13.02.52, Surrey, England, British, seat number 38J
Jeffreys, Rachel, advertising executive, 23, years, born 29.04.65, Surrey, England, British, seat number 38H
Jermyn, Kathleen Mary, student, 20 years, born 27.12.67, Staten Island, New York, American, seat number 49A
Johnson, Beth Ann, student, 21 years, born 24.03.67, Greensburg, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 36B
Johnson, Mary Alice Lincoln, student, 25 years, born 14.06.63, Wayland, Massachusetts, American, seat number 33D
Johnson, Timothy Baron, student, 21 years, born 30.11.67, Neptune, New Jersey, American, seat number 26A
Jones, Christopher Andrew, student, 20 years, born 04.03.68, Claverack, New York, American, seat number 52K
Kelly, Julianne Frances, student, 20 years, born 27.06.68, Dedham, Massachusetts, American, seat number 21E
Kingham, Jay Joseph, pharmaceuticals executive, 44 years, born 03.03.44, Potomac, Maryland, American, seat number 5B
Klein, Patricia Ann, social worker, 35 years, born 16.06.53, Trenton, New Jersey, American, seat number 28A
Kosmowski, Gregory, marketing executive, 40 years, born 08.10.48, MiIford, Michigan, American, seat number 8H
Kulukundis, Minas Christopher, ship brokerage director, 38 years, born 17.12.50, London, England, British, seat number 51K
LaRiviere, Ronald Albert, 33 years, born 19.11.55, Alexandria, Virginia, American, seat number 20H
Leckburg, Robert Milton, engineer, 30 years, born 12.10.58, Piscataway, New Jersey, seat number American 34C
Leyrer, William Chase, businessman, 46 years, born 24.08.42, Bay Shore, New York, American 2J
Lincoln, Wendy Anne, student, 23 years, born 21.01.65, North Adams, Massachusetts, American, seat number 28D
Lowenstein, Alexander Silas, student, 21 years, born 25.02.67, Morristown, New Jersey, American, seat number 20D
Ludlow, Lloyd David, army sergeant first class, 41 years, born 06.02.47, Macksville, Kansas, American, seat number 51A
Lurbke, Maria Theresia, 25 years, born 26.11.63, Balve Beckum, Germany, German, seat number 52A
Mack, William Edward, puppeteer, 30 years, born 24.04.58, New York, New York, American, seat number 36B
Malicote, Douglas Eugene, army specialist four, 22 years, born 31.08.66, Lebanon, Ohio, American, seat number 48B
CONTINUED..........
Malicote, Wendy Gay, 21 years, born 31.07.67, Lebanon, Ohio, American, seat number 48A
Marek, Elizabeth Lillian, actress and peace activist, 30 years, born 17.02.58, New York, New York, American, seat number 36C
Marengo, Louis Anthony, marketing director, 33 years, born 09.02.55, Rochester, Michigan, American, seat number 3J
Martin, Noel George, 27 years, born 31.05.61, Clapton, England, Jamaican, seat number 53A
Maslowski, Diane Marie, currency trader, 30 years, born 10.08.58, New York, American, seat number 8B
McAllister, William John, 26 years, born 18.10.62 in the Isle of Mull, Argyll, Scotland , Scottish, seat number 14E
McCarthy, Daniel Emmet, banker, 31 years, born 02.11.57, Brooklyn, New York, American, seat number 6B
McCollum, Robert Eugene, university professor, 61 years, born 12.05.27, Wayne, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 7J
McKee, Charles Dennis, army major, 40 years, born 03.12.48 , Arlington, Virginia, American, seat number 15F
McLaughlin, Bernard Joseph, marketing manager, 30 years, born 12.12.58, Cranston, Rhode Island, American, seat number 36A
Melber, Jane Susan, musician and teacher, 27 years, born 01.01.61, Middlesex, England, American, seat number 27H
Merrill, John, seaman, 35 years, born 11.07.53, Hertfordshire, England, British, seat number 37K
Miazga, Suzanne Marie, student, 22 years, born 31.07.66, Marcy, New York, American, seat number 23A
Miller, Joseph Kenneth, accounting firm executive, 56 years, born 27.05.32, Woodmere, New York, American, seat number 10B
Mitchell, Jewel Courtney, army second lieutenant, 32 years, born 14.06.56, Brooklyn, New York, American, seat number 27A
Monetti, Richard Paul, student, 20 years, born 11.09.68, Cherry Hill, New Jersey, American, seat number 20E
Morgan, Jane Ann, attorney, 37 years, born 19.03.51, London, England, American, seat number 42A
Morson, Eva Ingeborg, 48 years, born 29.04.40, New, York, New York, American, seat number 19G
Mosey, Helga Rachael, student, 19 years, born 21.09.69, West Midlands, England, British, seat number 22K
Mulroy, Ingrid Elizabeth, 25 years, born 22.04.63, Lund, Sweden, Swedish, seat number 34J
Mulroy, John, journalist, 59 years, born 01.04.29, East Northport, New York, American, seat number 34G
Mulroy, Sean Kevin, 25 years, born 03.05.63, Lund, Sweden, American, seat number 34H
Noonan, Karen Elizabeth, student, 20 years, born 26.12.67, Potomac, Maryland, American, seat number 20A
O'Connor, Daniel Emmett, U.S. diplomatic service, 31 years, born 22.09.57, Dorchester, Massachusetts, American, seat number 25H
O'Neil, Mary Denice, student, 2l years, born 02.04.67, Bronx, New York, American, seat number 38K
Otenasek, Anne Lindsey, student, 21 years, born 31.01.67, Baltimore, Maryland, American, seat number 45K
Owen, Bryony Elise, 1 year, born 29.04.87, Bristol, England, British, seat number 19D
Owen, Gwyneth Yvonne Margaret, student, 29 years, born 03.05.59, Bristol, England, British, seat number 19D
Owens, Laura Abigail, 8 years, born 01.01.80, Cherry Hill, New Jersey, American, seat number 35K
Owens, Martha, 44 years, born 02.06.44, Cherry Hill, New Jersey, American, seat number 35H
Owens, Robert Plack, 45 years, born 05.03.43, Cherry Hill, New Jersey, American, seat number 35G
Owens, Sarah Rebecca, 14 years, born 09.12.74, Cherry Hill, New Jersey, American, seat number 35J
Pagnucco, Robert Italo, attorney, 51 years, born 20.10.37, South Salem, New York, American, seat number 4A
Papadopoulos, Christos Michael, 45 years, born 11.11.43, North Lawrence, New York, American, seat number 17A
Peirce, Peter Raymond, architect and student, 40 years, born 28.09.48, Perrysburg, Ohio, American, seat number 47G
Pescatore, Michael, businessman, 33 years, born 06.09.55, Solon, Ohio, American, seat number 17J
Philipps, Sarah Susannah Buchanan, student, 20 years, born 15.08.68, Newtonville, Massachusetts, American, seat number 49C
Phillips, Frederick Sandford, student, 27 years, born 08.05.61, Little Rock, Arkansas, American, seat number 21F
Pitt, James Andrew Campbell, student, 24 years, born 06.11.64, South Hadley, Massachusetts, American, seat number 29K
Platt, David, architect, 33 years, born 13.12.55, Staten Island, New York, American, seat number 8A
Porter, Walter Leonard, musician, 35 years, born 10.03.53, Brooklyn, New York, American, seat number 25C
Posen, Pamela Lynn, student, 20 years, born 30.01.68, Harrison, New York, American, seat number 26K
Pugh, William, businessman, 56 years, born 29.02.32, Margate, New Jersey, American, seat number 21D
Quiguyan, Crisostomo Estrella, hotel cashier, 43 years, born 16.03.45, London, England, Filipino, seat number 30A
Ramses, Rajesh Tarsis Priskel, 35 years, born 26.05.53, Leicester, England, Indian, seat number 22A
Rattan, Anmol, 2 years, born 24.09.86, Warren, Michigan. American, seat number 24C
Rattan, Garima, computer programmer, 29 years, born 15.07.59, Warren, Michigan, American, seat number 23D
Rattan, Suruchi, 3 years, born 20.06.85, Warren, Michigan. American, seat number 23E
Reeves, Anita Lynn, 24 years, born 03.09.64, Laurel, Maryland, American, seat number 45D
Rein, Mark Alan, businessman, 44 years, born 12.02.44, New York, New York, American, seat number 2A
Rencevicz, Diane Marie, student, 21 years, born 13.07.67, Burlington, New Jersey, American, seat number 29G
Rogers, Louise Ann, student, 20 years, born 13.02.67, Olney, Maryland, American, seat number 29D
Roller, Edina, 5 years, born 24.11.83, Hungary, Hungarian, seat number 26D
Roller, Janos Gabor, 29 years, born 26.03.59, Hungary, Hungarian, seat number 26E
Roller, Zsuzsana, 27 years, born 21.12.61, Hungary, Hungarian, seat number 26G
Root, Hanne Maria, management consultant, 26 years, born 15.12.62, Toronto, Canada, Canadian, seat number 34K
Rosen, Saul Mark, businessman, 35 years, born 24.11.53, Morris Plains, New Jersey, American, seat number 32A
Rosenthal, Andrea Victoria, student, 22 years, born 05.02.66, New York, New York, American, seat number 35D
Rosenthal, Daniel Peter, student, 20 years, born 02.06.68, Staten Island, New York, American, seat number 21J
Rubin, Arnaud David, 28 years, born 18.05.60, Waterloo, Belgium, Belgian, seat number 39G
Saraceni, Elyse Jeanne, student, 20 years, born 01.06.68, East London, England, American, seat number 36D
Saunders, Scott Christopher, student, 21 years, born 20.05.67, Macungie, Pennsylvania, American, seat number 24D
Saunders, Theresa Elizabeth Jane, marketing, 28 years, born 24.10.60, Sunbury-on-Thames, England, British, seat number 14F
Schauble, Johannes Otto, 41 years, born 08.08.47, Kappellenweg, Germany, German, seat number 49K
Schlageter, Robert Thomas, student, 20 years, born 12.08.68, Warwick, Rhode Island American, seat number 28G
Schultz, Thomas Britton, student, 20, years, born 05.01.68, Ridgefield, Connecticut, American, seat number 45C
Scott, Sally Elizabeth, chef, 22 years, born 17.01.66, Huntington, New York, British, seat number 56G
Shapiro, Amy Elizabeth, student, 21 years, born 28.10.67, Stamford, Connecticut, American, seat number 37G
Shastri, Mridula, 24 years, born 12.02.64, Oxford, England, Indian, seat number 24H
Sheanshang, Joan, 46 years, born 16.12.42, New York, New York, American, seat number 41C
Sigal, Irving Stanley, research biologist, 35 years, born 23.05.53, Pennington, New Jersey, American, seat number 13B
Simpson, Martin Bernard Christopher, financier, 52 years, born 25.10.36, Brooklyn, New York, American, seat number 27K
Smith, Cynthia Joan, student, 21 years, born 06.10.67, Milton, Massachusetts, American, seat number 41A
Smith, Ingrid Anita, chiropodist, 31 years, born 12.11.57, Berkshire, England, British, seat number 4H
Smith, James Alvin, 55 years, born 11.03.33, New York, New York, American, seat number 27G
Smith, Mary Edna, army sergeant, 34 years, born 14.07.54, Kalamazoo, Michigan, American, seat number 34A
Stevenson, Geraldine Anne, 37 years, born 31.03.51, Surrey, England, British, seat number 22E
Stevenson, Hannah Louise, 10 years, born 23.09.78, Surrey, England, British, seat number 22F
Stevenson, John Charles, 38 years, born 13.09.50, Surrey, England, British, seat number 22D
Stevenson, Rachael, 8 years, born 01.09.80, Surrey, England, British, seat number 22G
Stinnett, Charlotte Ann, 36 years, born 07.02.52, Duncanville, Texas, American, seat number 19J
Stinnett, Michael Gary, army specialist, 26 years, born 27.05.62, Duncanville, Texas, American, seat number 19H
Stinnett, Stacey Leanne, 9 years, born 30.07.79, Duncanville, Texas, American, seat number 19K
Stow, James Ralph, businessman, 49 years, born 18.07.39, New York, New York, American, seat number 15E
Stratis, Elia G., accountant, 43 years, born 17.06.45, Montvale, New Jersey, American, seat number 1B
Swan, Anthony Selwyn, 29 years, born 15.05.59, Brooklyn, New York,
CONTINUED..........
Trinidadian, seat number 41K
Swire, Flora MacDonald Margaret, medical student and researcher, 24 years, born 22.12.64, London, England, British, seat number 39D
Tager, Marc Alex, 22 years, born 03.08.66, London, England, British, seat number 26H
Tanaka, Hidekazu, 26 years, born 13.05.62, London, England, Japanese, seat number 24G
Teran, Andrew Alexander, student, 20 years, born 31.08.68, New Haven, Connecticut, Bolivian, seat number 27D
Thomas, Arva Anthony, student, 17 years, born 26.04.71, Detroit, Michigan, American, seat number 19A
Thomas, Jonathan Ryan, 2 months, born 29.09.88, Southfield, Michigan, American, seat number 32K
Thomas, Lawanda, air force sergeant, 21 years, born 17.02.67, Southfield, Michigan, American, seat number 32K
Tobin, Mark Lawrence, student, 21 years, born 04.04.67, North Hempstead, New York, American, seat number 32G
Trimmer-Smith, David William, publishing executive, 51 years, born 26.04.37, New York, New York, American, seat number 12A
Tsairis, Alexia Kathryn, student, 20 years, born 06.07.68, Franklin Lakes, New Jersey, American, seat number 21G
Valentino, Barry Joseph, exhibit designer, 28 years, born 25.02.60, San Francisco, California, American, seat number 20G
Van-Tienhoven, Thomas Floro, 45 years, born 30.05.43, Buenos Aires, Argentina, Argentinean, seat number 2B
Vejdany, Asaad Eidi, 46 years, born 24.02.42, South Great Neck, New York, American, seat number 20C
Vrenios, Nicholas Andreas, student, 20 years, born 20.08.68, Washington, DC, American, seat number 46E
Vulcu, Peter, stockbroker and student, 21 years, born 01.08.67, Alliance, Ohio, American, seat number 20K
Waido, Janina Jozefa, 61 years, born 19.03.27, Chicago, Illinois, American, seat number 50A
Walker, Thomas Edwin, electronics specialist, 47 years, born 11.12.41, Quincy, Massachusetts, American, seat number 16A
Weedon, Kesha, student, 20 years, born 02.10.68, Bronx, New York, American, seat number 37H
Weston, Jerome Lee, engineer, 45 years, born 11.11.43, Baldwin, New York, American, seat number 10A
White, Jonathan, accountant, 33 years, born 14.07.55, North Hollywood, California, American, seat number 55J
Williams, Bonnie Leigh, military, 21 years, born 12.01.67, Crown Point, New York, American, seat number 46K
Williams, Brittany Leigh, 2 months, born 13.10.88, Crown Point, New York, American, seat number 46J
Williams, Eric Jon, army sergeant, 24 years, born 15.08.64, Crown Point, New York, American, seat number 46J
Williams, George Waterson, army first lieutenant, 24 years, born 17.05.64, Joppa, Maryland, American, seat number 33K
Williams, Stephanie Leigh, 1 year, born 23.05.87, Crown Point, New York, American, seat number 46K
Wolfe, Miriam Luby, student, 20 years, born 26.09.68, Severna Park, Maryland, American, seat number 21K
Woods, Chelsea Marie, 10 months, born 06.02.88, Willingboro, New Jersey, American, seat number 25F
Woods, Dedera Lynn, air force sergeant, 27 years, born 04.02.61, Willingboro, New Jersey, American, seat number 25G
Woods, Joe Nathan, civilian military worker, 28 years, born 05.03.60, Willingboro, New Jersey, American, seat number 25D
Woods, Joe Nathan, Jr., 2 years, born 24.09.86, Willingboro, New Jersey, American, seat number 25E
Wright, Andrew Christopher Gillies, site agent, 24 years, born 02.05.64, Surrey, England, British, seat number 55G
Zwynenburg, Mark James, investment banker, 29 years, born 14.10.59, West Nyack, New York, American, seat number 12B
Lockerbie Residents
Flannigan, Kathleen Mary, 41 years, born 26.01.47, 16 Sherwood Crescent
Flannigan, Thomas Brown, 44 years, born 20.12.44, 16 Sherwood Crescent
Flannigan, Joanne, 10 years, born 13.06.78, 16 Sherwood Crescent
Henry, Dora Henrietta, 56 years, born 27.03.32, 13 Sherwood Crescent
Henry, Maurice Peter, 63 years, born 18.07.25, 13 Sherwood Crescent
Lancaster, Mary, 81 years, born 12.01.07, 11 Sherwood Crescent
Murray, Jean Aitkin, 82 years, born 29.11.06, 14 Sherwood Crescent
Somerville, John, 40 years, born 31.05.48, 15 Sherwood Crescent
Somerville, Rosaleen Later, affectionately know as 'Rosalind', 40 years, born 31.05.48, 15 Sherwood Crescent
Somerville, Paul, 13 years, born 21.01.75, 15 Sherwood Crescent
Somerville, Lyndsey Ann, 10 years, 13.07.78, 15 Sherwood
..............
Pal334
08-21-2009, 04:55 PM
I wonder what mercy was given these people and their families when that dirt ball and his accomplices committed their CRIME. Let the B*****D rot in h**l.
Tony uk
08-21-2009, 05:05 PM
Tony - according to your law, the judge did not have to release him. He went against the advice of prosecuters and victims families to do so. That, in and of itself is an injustice IMO.
You are correct crash, he did not have to. What i was meaning was not that this was the best case for the use of the law that allows him to be released, i was meaning was that the only way to stop his release procedings would be to change the law, which would mean that ALL other prisoners would be affected, some worse than others, for the actions of this one man.
Ken, I agree that it might have of not been the BEST thing to do, but i believe that it was not an overly poor decision by the judge. I hate what he done, i really do. Its just that i can see some sense in releaseing a dieing man from prison. The cost of his care, medical treatment and procedings more than likely outweigh the cost of sending him to another country to let him spend his few, weeks, a couple of months at most, being cared for by others.
crashdive123
08-21-2009, 05:09 PM
About 26 cents each.
http://www.hip2b2.com/images/uploaded_images/bullets.jpg
Pal334
08-21-2009, 05:20 PM
" The cost of his care, medical treatment and procedings more than likely outweigh the cost of sending him to another country to let him spend his few, weeks, a couple of months at most, being cared for by others".
It is indeed a sad state of affairs when cost stands in the way of justice. How can that judge look at himself in the mirror in the morning and not see the faces of the murdered passengers, especially the children staring him in the face? The Judge had options and his choice was cost and compassion for a murderer and no thought for the dead and their families.
Tony, on this side of the pond, our Constitution prohibits "cruel and unusual" punishment.
People live and die without medical treatment every day in every nation of the world. Therefore, denying him expensive medical treatment, wherever he is incarcerated, would not be unusual.
Now let's talk about cruel:
"Thomas, Jonathan Ryan, 2 months, born 29.09.88, Southfield, Michigan, American, seat number 32K"
If Jonathan had been your son, what would you have done to his murderer?
Me? I would have given him just enough medical care to keep him alive for another day of absolute torture until medical science could no longer keep him alive.
So, I don't see a damn thing wrong with letting him rot away in a dark miserable cell while a loudspeaker blares of the names of his victims over and over again until the son of a ***** was DEAD!
mountain mama
08-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Ken, in your professional opinion, would denying such a man painkillers in his condition (as long as all other medical treatments were being administered to ensure his life be as lengthy as possible) be considered "cruel and unusual"?
Ken, in your professional opinion, would denying such a man painkillers in his condition (as long as all other medical treatments were being administered to ensure his life be as lengthy as possible) be considered "cruel and unusual"?
In the United States? In my professional opinion, yes, without a doubt it would be unconstitutional. Unfortunately.
In my personal opinion? He should receive as many painkillers as his victims received.
rebel
08-21-2009, 05:57 PM
I used to work for Pan Am. The bombing put another nail in the coffin for the airline. A ripple effect. Not that this is in anyway a comparison to the co-workers, victims and their families but, as collateral damage myself and others lost our jobs.
rebel
08-21-2009, 07:06 PM
At some time in the future someone needs to dig up his body and sew it in a pig carcase. Then rebury it where no one find it.
Winnie
08-21-2009, 07:08 PM
This release on compassionate grounds stuck in my craw. Since Scotland integrated compassionate freedom into their legal system there have been 36 applications and only 7 requests granted. I surely can't see that the other 29 were any worse than him so where's the logic in his release when otheres have been denied. His HAS to be the worst crime and he was allowed to go home!! And No-one can tell me they didn't see this hero's welcome coming. He's a relative of Gadaffi for goodness sake!!!!!!!!!!!!
rebel
08-21-2009, 07:31 PM
I'm glad the world saw the hero welcome. Maybe, some will wake up.
We live a short life of mixed emotions. Of happiness and sadness. The good news for me in all of this is I know there is an eternity waiting just around the corner for him. I certainly don't envy him in the slightest. I can't even dream up horrors that he'll call friend....very, very soon.
2dumb2kwit
08-21-2009, 08:43 PM
About 26 cents each.
http://www.hip2b2.com/images/uploaded_images/bullets.jpg
Not only would I donate the bullet/bullets needed, I would personally dip them in the pig blood.
rebel
08-21-2009, 08:55 PM
Not only would I donate the bullet/bullets needed, I would personally dip them in the pig blood.
That's too big of a round. A .22 short and let him be the village idiot.
2dumb2kwit
08-21-2009, 09:04 PM
That's too big of a round. A .22 short and let him be the village idiot.
But, then Ken would be out of a job.:innocent:
Guess what I just bought on e-Bay?
http://idontbreak.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/dogtags.jpg
2dumb2kwit
08-21-2009, 09:25 PM
Guess what I just bought on e-Bay?
http://idontbreak.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/dogtags.jpg
A picture of the keyboard, that you want, but don't have?
To go with the picture of the neighbors,, that you want, but don't have?:smash:
red lake
08-21-2009, 10:12 PM
Scottish law and Scottish customs. Why is it that some feel they need to impose their beliefs and values on other cultures?
I am sure they (judge, crown attorney) are not idiots and there was a valid reason for doing it. Do you think the judge who released him didn't consider the victims?
Would you release a dying man to gain information as to who the rest of the terrorists are?
No. But I'd stomp on his fingers to get the names. I'd hook him up to an electric battery and play 20 questions. I'd collect his finger nails and toe nails and keep them in a jar beside the chair he would be tied in. I'd keep the lights on in his chamber and never let him sleep.
But most of all...I'd ask real polite like.
crashdive123
08-21-2009, 11:05 PM
It appears that compassion wasn't the only thing on the minds of those working on the release. http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Lockerbie-Bomber-Release-Linked-To-Trade-Deal-With-Britain-Says-Colonel-Gaddafis-Son/Article/200908315366896?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15366896_Lockerbie_Bomber_Release_Link ed_To_Trade_Deal_With_Britain%2C_Says_Colonel_Gadd afis_Son
rebel
08-21-2009, 11:16 PM
It appears that compassion wasn't the only thing on the minds of those working on the release. http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Lockerbie-Bomber-Release-Linked-To-Trade-Deal-With-Britain-Says-Colonel-Gaddafis-Son/Article/200908315366896?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15366896_Lockerbie_Bomber_Release_Link ed_To_Trade_Deal_With_Britain%2C_Says_Colonel_Gadd afis_Son
According to the Mrs. my idea of making his family pay with their lives is harsh. It seems to me that, only when the enemy populace begins to suffer that the a- holes beg for mercy. What say you? Are you done or do you want 20 more years of our death and their crap? Like I've said in the past: if your dog craps on the floor do you pat it on the head or roll-up a news paper?
I think we should fly over Libya with a crop duster and spray the whole place with pig urine. Hey! Another urine thread!
Pal334
08-22-2009, 04:42 AM
No. But I'd stomp on his fingers to get the names. I'd hook him up to an electric battery and play 20 questions. I'd collect his finger nails and toe nails and keep them in a jar beside the chair he would be tied in. I'd keep the lights on in his chamber and never let him sleep.
But most of all...I'd ask real polite like.
As long as you are polite about it, it is just fine :)
Pal334
08-22-2009, 04:48 AM
Scottish law and Scottish customs. Why is it that some feel they need to impose their beliefs and values on other cultures?
I am sure they (judge, crown attorney) are not idiots and there was a valid reason for doing it. Do you think the judge who released him didn't consider the victims?
Would you release a dying man to gain information as to who the rest of the terrorists are?
My outrage is primarily because the bulk of the victims were United States of America Citizens, and I for one take the murder of inncent people very personaly. If my distaste for murder of innocents (no matter nationality)violates the beliefs and values of other cultures then so be it. It would seem that he did not consider the victims, the reports show that his decision was counter to advice of members of his own legal community.
crashdive123
08-22-2009, 07:35 AM
@Red Lake - did you ask the same question as the beliefs and values of the jihadists were blowing up the aircraft?
rebel
08-22-2009, 08:06 AM
here's a good poster...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.posterworld.org/General/Kadafi.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.posterworld.org/General/Kadafi.htm&h=392&w=300&sz=23&tbnid=XvruX-N-cn8gpM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=94&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmomar%2Bkadafi&hl=en&usg=__ZKadKalsg0Q29NNwbk3op_TeBUU=&ei=mt6PSqG2Eo6Rtgf98fjOBA&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image
He's to be in NYC soon. That should be interesting.
mountain mama
08-22-2009, 09:22 AM
Scottish law and Scottish customs. Why is it that some feel they need to impose their beliefs and values on other cultures?
I am sure they (judge, crown attorney) are not idiots and there was a valid reason for doing it. Do you think the judge who released him didn't consider the victims?
Would you release a dying man to gain information as to who the rest of the terrorists are?
We already know who the terrorists are, and anyone who sides with them is no better than they are and deserves the same fate (and it sure as heck ain't being let go under the guise of "compassion")
I'm not certain, but I believe that terrorist activities involving the deaths of Americans also violate U.S. law regardless of where the murders occur. The fact that he was prosecuted in Scotland should not preclude subsequent prosecution in the United States, and there's no "statute of limitations" for murder. Just thinkin'. :sneaky2:
FBI Director Mueller Attacks Release:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8216122.stm
Winnie
08-22-2009, 02:33 PM
Hmmm Mr MacAskill is writing a letter to Mr Meuller, hope that sees the light of day too.
rebel
08-22-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm not certain, but I believe that terrorist activities involving the deaths of Americans also violate U.S. law regardless of where the murders occur. The fact that he was prosecuted in Scotland should not preclude subsequent prosecution in the United States, and there's no "statute of limitations" for murder. Just thinkin'. :sneaky2:
To my understanding, a flagship (a vessel by sea or air is considered U.S. property because it flies the U.S. flag). An attack on a "flagship" is considered an attack on the U.S. The Pan Am aircraft was flying a U.S. flag.
pocomoonskyeyes
08-22-2009, 06:57 PM
I have avoided reading this thread 'til now. Here's what I think....
In the early 1900's in the city I was born in the following happened: A man raped a woman was caught and arrested. A mob formed and proceeded to lynch the man in an unusual way. They took him out in the country, nailed his "member" to the floor put a DULL knife nearby. They then soaked the shack in gasoline and set it ablaze, saying " If you want to live cut it off. He did and came running out where he was promptly gunned down by shotgun blasts. The end result - no more rapes in that city for over 30 years.
Moral of the story - Make the punishment meet the crime and that type of Crime sort of just "disappears".
mountain mama
08-22-2009, 08:08 PM
That sounds like justice to me...
Pal334
08-22-2009, 09:14 PM
To my understanding, a flagship (a vessel by sea or air is considered U.S. property because it flies the U.S. flag). An attack on a "flagship" is considered an attack on the U.S. The Pan Am aircraft was flying a U.S. flag.
And more importantly, PAN AM as well as all US flag airlines are members of the Civilian Reserve Air Fleet (CRAF). This means the are branches of the U.S. Government, similar to the way the Merchant Marine was
red lake
08-23-2009, 12:01 AM
But he wasn't tried in the US. He wasn't imprisoned under US Law. So give it up or have your country extradite him and then try a dying man.
I don't condone or approve of what he did. it is tragic to lose anybody for such senselessness.
BUT....
He was tried in the Scottish courts and it was the scottish customs that see the mercy in releasing a dying man. A dying man whose guilt is not crystal clear.
So respect another countries ways for a change rather than than trying to impose your beliefs on others. But I guess that is the American way. It is our way or you are a terrorist.
A piece of advice. Try to walk a mile in another mans shoes.
rebel
08-23-2009, 12:07 AM
A piece of advice. Try to walk a mile in another mans shoes.
You should try taking your own advise. ...and take stony w/you.
But he wasn't tried in the US. He wasn't imprisoned under US Law. So give it up or have your country extradite him and then try a dying man.
I don't condone or approve of what he did. it is tragic to lose anybody for such senselessness.
BUT....
He was tried in the Scottish courts and it was the scottish customs that see the mercy in releasing a dying man. A dying man whose guilt is not crystal clear.
So respect another countries ways for a change rather than than trying to impose your beliefs on others. But I guess that is the American way. It is our way or you are a terrorist.
A piece of advice. Try to walk a mile in another mans shoes.
RL, I really don't give a sh!t that he was imprisoned under Scottish law. The bastard is a terrorist and he killed Americans. Libya is a terrorist regime that supported his mission and is now harboring him.
Screw international opinion. Nothing, NOTHING, justified the deaths of 270 people who had nothing to do with whatever "grievances" the terrorists claim to have. We should hunt the bastard down and kill him - slowly. I am sick and tired of the world sh!tting on America. The friggin rules only seem to apply to us.
People b!tch about the way we "torture" and "humiliate" terrorists. Tough sh!t! Have we ever done this?
http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/nick-berg-beheading-pic-9-warning-graphic.jpg
If we hadn't done what we have done over the past 8 years, I can assure you that we would have seen many more pictures like this:
http://911review.org/Wiki/im/WTC_Demolition.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ac3176.k12.sd.us/Event/twin%2520towers%2520slide.jpg&imgrefurl=http://ac3176.k12.sd.us/Event/Twin%2520Towers.htm&usg=__bIjWXDFdf-OGaJb7WVnitriC01g=&h=387&w=403&sz=70&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=1O6O-tT3icoGKM:&tbnh=119&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtwin%2Btowers%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den)
I say hunt every last one of them down wherever they are.
In my book, the Law of Self Preservation comes first!
Pal334
08-23-2009, 05:13 AM
Red Lake; "A piece of advice. Try to walk a mile in another mans shoes". I have done that and more. Try to explain to a child as you are wiping her parents blood from her face that compassion for a useless piece of trash is necessary so as not to offend that piece of trashs sensibility. Hold a tourniquet on the leg of a 60 plus year old women whose only crime was trying to go to the market to get food for her family. I have on more than one occassion.
You will notice I am not using examples of armed combatants, only unarmed civilians.If I am carrying a weapon, then I have said and still say to the trash "bring it on"!!!
The law of humanity requires punishment for to maiming and killing of innocent people. Puking up platitudes like you have just encourages and protects this flotsom of society.
red lake
08-23-2009, 08:24 AM
I never said the deaths were justified. I never said it wasn't tragic. Nobody said the victims should show mercy. I never sh!t on America.
I am saying respect OTHER counties laws and customs. If you think he deserves more punishment, petition your politicians to extradite him. America still has the death penalty. Feel free to exercise those laws.
I get uncomfortable when I see one country trying to force their beliefs and values on another or interfere with their legal processes.
crashdive123
08-23-2009, 08:36 AM
I never said the deaths were justified. I never said it wasn't tragic. Nobody said the victims should show mercy. I never sh!t on America.
I am saying respect OTHER counties laws and customs. If you think he deserves more punishment, petition your politicians to extradite him. America still has the death penalty. Feel free to exercise those laws.
I get uncomfortable when I see one country trying to force their beliefs and values on another or interfere with their legal processes.
I don't think that individuals expressing there views on a forum can qualify as a country forcing their beliefs and values on another country. Officials have expressed their displeasure. They have taken no action to "force" their values. Do you consider expressing your views (as you have done) the forcing of ones values and beliefs? You seem to chastise a country for the free expression of views and opinions by its citizens. That logic would lead to the conclusion that your opinions and beliefs are the policy of Canada. I think logic would dictate that neither of those statements are true.
I'm probably going to get hammered on this but I do see where RL is coming from. Other than scale, there is little difference between what Magrahi did and what other foreign nationals have done. Sometimes under the guise of diplomatic immunity. If you disagree with that I completely understand. The issue of scale is a subjective thing and you could post a really good argument against it. Still, we're ready to go stomp on Libya and we're ticked off at Scotland when we should be doing, and probably are behind the scenes, the very thing Red Lake is suggesting. Follow our own laws governing such actions.
I'm upset that he was released. I think it was the wrong decision and the wrong thing to do but I also know I'm looking at that decision from my own culture and my own value system when, in fact, he was a prisoner under an entirely different set of laws.
pocomoonskyeyes
08-23-2009, 09:33 AM
Naw Rick I'm with you I've got your back on this one. This is America (where I'm sitting at in my home)and I am a vet. As such I have been and still am willing to put my life on the line so that others have the freedoms we so value. One of which is... " I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say It!!" I can't exactly say who first said that as it has been attributed to several different people. But that doesn't matter the sentiment is valid whether it was John Paul Jones or John Q Public. Ken has the right to say what he believes and so does RL.
Granted I may not agree with what has transpired, I may even want to take justice in my own hands (I do). But one of the things that has made This Young Nation so great is Freedom of Speech. Otherwise we would have a Gov't censor sitting here and striking down what even the Mods say. There is a Reason I said young Nation, just as we do not like a young person butting in and telling us what we should do, a lot of Older nations feel the same way. Even if the youngster(person or Nation) is right. So keep that in mind folks as we criticize these oldsters. Some other Nations and their people feel that way, As I found out in my "travels" with good ole Uncle Sam. I may not like it but I must respect other Nations sovereignty. you have to give respect to get respect. Do we have the right to re-arrest said terrorist and Try him -Yes, that is our laws. should we? I don't know, that would kinda' be like "Double Jeopardy" to me. Our nations justice system already has enough trouble so I would say just let it go. However if my Nation wants me to take care of this problem Just give me a Barret .50 cal sniper rifle and a parachute. Won't need any food since I don't have any allusions as to my possibility of survival after I pull the trigger. Give me the chance anyway it will save on this persons and his families Medical bills. Sorry to the Doctors who would benefit though they could use the funds.:sneaky2::clap:
Sarge47
08-23-2009, 11:00 AM
In the United States? In my professional opinion, yes, without a doubt it would be unconstitutional. Unfortunately.
In my personal opinion? He should receive as many painkillers as his victims received.
Here's a tricky question; if that guy was being tried in Massachusets, would YOU defend him? :cool2:
mountain mama
08-23-2009, 12:00 PM
A piece of advice. Try to walk a mile in another mans shoes.You're a Cannuck, aren't ya?
I don't think I have seen Canada under the same amount of fire as Americans, so maybe, just maybe you need to put yourself in OUR shoes and understand our outrage.
I'm all for extraditing the b@st@rd and letting him rot in one of our jail cells for the remainder of his life.
Oh, and Ken, does tylenol count as a pain reliever for a cancer victim? It's what an emergency room doctor recommended for me when a glass door went through my foot and he had sewn the remaining glass back into my foot only to sever all remaining nerves (he was angry because my accident pulled him away from dinner). Tylenol should be sufficient for this guy too, right?
Scotland's "jurisdiction" over this matter was based on two things. First, our plane just happened to explode over Scotland. Second, Scottish citizens on the ground were killed as well as those on the plane.
Both Scotland's laws and America's laws were broken. The trial was held in Scotland only because Libya agreed to extradite to Scotland. He was never tried for violating American law in an American court because Libya would not extradite him to the US and because Scotland returned him to Libya.
I believe in hunting terrorists down, regardless of the fact that the "law" and the terrorist regime of their sponsoring nation grants them sanctuary.
Here's a tricky question; if that guy was being tried in Massachusets, would YOU defend him? :cool2:
No.
Do we have the right to re-arrest said terrorist and Try him -Yes, that is our laws. should we? I don't know, that would kinda' be like "Double Jeopardy" to me.:sneaky2::clap:
It's not double jeopardy. Double jeopardy only applies to being re-tried (after acquittal) in THE SAME JURISDICTION. Think of the civil rights murder trials decades back. Defendants would be found "NOT GUILTY" in STATE courts only to later be indicted and CONVICTED in FEDERAL court.
Oh, and Ken, does tylenol count as a pain reliever for a cancer victim? It's what an emergency room doctor recommended for me when a glass door went through my foot and he had sewn the remaining glass back into my foot only to sever all remaining nerves (he was angry because my accident pulled him away from dinner). Tylenol should be sufficient for this guy too, right?
That's malpractice. The stuff people complain lawyers are sue-crazy over. Sue the doctor.
Still, we're ready to go stomp on Libya and we're ticked off at Scotland when we should be doing, and probably are behind the scenes, the very thing Red Lake is suggesting. Follow our own laws governing such actions.
"Behind the scenes" won't work with Libya. Libya is a terrorist regime. They sponsored and assisted in the downing of the plane itself, partially in retaliation for Reagan's anti-terrorist policies. They will never extradite this criminal to the United States.
Sarge47
08-23-2009, 01:01 PM
But counselor, as a defense attorney don't you believe that here in America that everyone deserves the best legal defense that they can get? What about the "presumption of innocence?" Careful Ken, you're starting to sound like a prosecutor! (Hooray!) :innocent:
Here's some cruel & unusal punishment that just might fly: Lock the dude up in a room and pipe in this one song over & over again 24/7: "Tiger By The Tail" by Buck Owens. In a very short time the individual will be crawling on his knees spilling his guts with everything that he knows! :sneaky2::clap::clap::clap:
But counselor, as a defense attorney don't you believe that here in America that everyone deserves the best legal defense that they can get? What about the "presumption of innocence?" Careful Ken, you're starting to sound like a prosecutor! (Hooray!) :innocent:
Sarge, I've represented several defendants charged with murder and scores of others charged with crimes which, in my opinion, are far worse. I have represented thousands of criminal defendants, and my conscience is clear because I believed what I was doing was right.
My professional and ethical responsibilities require me to zealously represent my clients. However, if I'm not able to do so, I am not the right lawyer for the job.
Pal334
08-23-2009, 02:10 PM
Redlake:I am saying respect OTHER counties laws and customs.
I have the obligation to OBEY the laws and customs of other countries when I am in them. However I do not have to respect them, there is a significant difference. This is a complete travesty of common sense and respect for humanity
mountain mama
08-23-2009, 02:53 PM
That's malpractice. The stuff people complain lawyers are sue-crazy over. Sue the doctor. It's too late for me. My incident happened 15 years ago and I was unable to come up with the $10,000 out-of-pocket required by the attorney to bring forth a medical malpractice suit (in order to get a doctor from out-of-state to testify). But, it isn't too late for this terrorist. Would giving him tylenol as a pain reliever be considered "cruel and unusual"?
It's too late for me. My incident happened 15 years ago and I was unable to come up with the $10,000 out-of-pocket required by the attorney to bring forth a medical malpractice suit (in order to get a doctor from out-of-state to testify). But, it isn't too late for this terrorist. Would giving him tylenol as a pain reliever be considered "cruel and unusual"?
Nope! Not personally, anyway.... :innocent:
mountain mama
08-24-2009, 12:00 PM
He was tried in the Scottish courts and it was the scottish customs that see the mercy in releasing a dying man. Actually, it was the choice of ONE man: "Those were my decisions and my decisions alone," MacAskill told parliament. http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/08/24/scotland.lockerbie/index.html
Pal334
08-26-2009, 08:56 AM
By VICTOR EPSTEIN and SAMANTHA HENRY, Associated Press Writers Victor Epstein And Samantha Henry, Associated Press Writers Mon Aug 24, 7:09 pm ET
ENGLEWOOD, N.J. Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi will set foot on U.S. soil for the first time next month when he comes to address the U.N. General Assembly. Now he wants to put down stakes in the middle of American suburbia.
Plans to set up a tent and allow him to stay at a Libyan-owned estate in this upscale community 12 miles north of Manhattan, were attacked Monday by neighborhood residents and public officials, particularly after the hero's welcome extended by Libya last week to the lone man convicted in the 1988 bombing of Pan American Flight 103.
The attack over Lockerbie, Scotland, thought to be the work of Libyan intelligence, killed all 259 people on board the flight, including 33 from New Jersey. Abdel Baset al-Megrahi was freed from a life sentence in a Scottish jail and returned to Libya on compassionate grounds because he is dying of cancer.
"Gadhafi is a dangerous dictator whose hands are covered with the blood of Americans and our allies," said U.S. Rep. Steve Rothman, whose district includes Englewood. He promised there would be "hell to pay" if the U.S. State Department violates a long-standing deal barring the dictator from staying at the Libyan estate.
State department officials said no decision had been made on the issue.
Rothman was mayor of Englewood 26 years ago when the city learned the Libyan Mission to the United Nations had purchased the Palisade Avenue estate. He said local officials worked out a deal with the U.S. State Department limiting its use to the recreational activities by the ambassador and his family. The Libyans don't pay taxes on the estate, he said.
Gadhafi's U.N. appearance culminates a yearslong effort to rehabilitate the Libyan strongman's international image, which has included denouncing terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. He's ruled the oil rich North African kingdom since 1969.
"This is what happens when you have the path of appeasement," Susan Cohen, of Cape May Court House, New Jersey, said of the prospect of Gadhafi staying in Englewood. "He's getting everything he wants, and I guess that includes a trip to the state of New Jersey, which certainly doesn't need this."
Cohen's 20-year-old daughter died in the Scottish bombing.
Englewood is an upscale community of 28,000 residents that's located about 12 miles north of Manhattan. About 15 percent are Jewish, according to Rothman.
Shmuley Boteach, an orthodox Jewish rabbi, family counselor and star of the mainstream television series "Shalom in the Home," lives next door to the Libyan estate. He said the mansion has been renovated over the past three months with nearly 100 people working there.
He was initially supportive of the idea of Gadhafi coming to the U.S., but that changed after the release of al-Megrahi.
"I don't want him as a neighbor," said Boteach. "The events of the past few days have changed everything. Gadhafi has shown his true colors."
Bob Monetti of Cherry Hill, N.J., whose 20-year-old son died in the bombing, said allowing Gadhafi to stay in New Jersey would make it more difficult to live with what's happened.
"When he's in his tent in the desert in Libya he's a distant character that we can hate at arm's length, but when he comes to New Jersey, it just means he's on our home turf, and we don't want him on our home turf," he said.
In Washington, U.S. officials said Englewood was one option the Libyans were looking at to pitch the tent after their request to set it up New York's Central Park had been denied due to logistics and security concerns.
"We have been talking to the U.N. about this issue, we've been talking to the New York City authorities about the issue of where Mr. Gadhafi is going to stay, but no decisions have been made," State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said Monday. "No decision has been made about where anybody's going to pitch a tent."
Ahmed Gebreel, a spokesman for the Libyan Mission to the United Nations in Manhattan, did not return a reporter's phone call for this story.
However, Nicole DiCocco, spokeswoman for the Libyan Embassy in Washington, D.C., confirmed that the Libyan government owns the property in Englewood and it's a possible site for Gadhafi. She said that he would not live in the tent, but use it for entertainment purposes.
"We own the residence in Englewood, but it hasn't been confirmed that he'll be staying there," DiCocco said.
U.S. Sen Frank Lautenberg has asked the State Department to limit Gadhafi's travel in the U.S. to the U.N. headquarters district.
mountain mama
08-26-2009, 09:52 AM
Sounds to me like hunting season is about to open.
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yellowcab
05-03-2026, 08:35 AM
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