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View Full Version : The incredible, not so edible, AR15.



Lothaen
08-11-2009, 03:10 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/Lothen/DSC00377.jpg

I don't see too many threads about this fine rifle, so here is a discussion thread dedicated to one of America's finest rifle products.

An Ar15 is much like a sport utility rifle. Accurate enough for marksmanship training at 700 meters, capable of harvesting medium sized game, and easily a right and proper tool for defending yourself against monsters both 2 and 4 legged.

So who owns an AR15?

I am going on my fourth AR15 build. My first job was used to finance my first AR15 at a sweet 18 years of age.

Fantastic rifle if you buy a quality built weapon. I am partial to 20 inch models myself though I currently don't own one. :( The next build will fix that issue.

oldsoldier
08-11-2009, 03:17 PM
I've got a Stag arms M4 carbine. .223 caliber also have the .22 bolt converter kit for plinkin' playin' and small gamin'. I love it. Added the colapseable stock,picannty rails, a tac light/laser combo. Holo sights combat sling, and cheek rest/saddle that holds spare batteries for the optics. Recently ordered a M203 40mm smoke/flare/launcher. ( Yes you can also use it for ......( you know what)

hunter63
08-11-2009, 04:34 PM
There mught be a couple laying around, not sure.
This orphen followed me home one day.
Colt target model.
Gotta love the EBR's


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y139/hunter63/zPICT0515.jpg

Pal334
08-11-2009, 04:53 PM
I guess I am in an extreme minority. So as I put forward my opinion , I will assume a protective (not defensive) posture:tank: :) . I have handled and used the M-16 and almost all of its derivative offspring from 1972 through early 2006 in the military and as an LEO. I confession I have never used one for "fun". I have had the opinion the way it is made is much too flimsy, my biggest dislikes are the stock, forearm, pistol grip , buffer and gas tube. and after heavy use it is a bear to clean. Also to me, the caliber of the weapon is too small. Other than these minor complaints , I guess it is ok :) ,but would never be my first choice (if I had a choice). Now having said all that, It is what Uncle Sam issues, so that is that and I had to use it!

Just expressing an opinion, not trying to cause an arguement, nor to persuade anyone.

glockcop
08-11-2009, 05:28 PM
Speaking from experience (I own several and am issued one) the M4 or AR15 is far from flimsy or delicate. It is an absolute hammer. It can take all the abuse you can dish out and keep on trucking as long as it is run "wet". They like to be liberally lubricated. Not so uncommon. Plenty weapons need their juice to run properly. As far as the caliber being "too small"; that is not entirely true. When the US Military first fielded the 5.56x45 the Swiss government wanted to have it pulled from NATO because it's wounding was too severe. The problem with the 5.56x45 is the ammo the military is now issuing. The steel core ammo (semi armor piercing) now in common use prevents the projectile from "yawing" as much. Ideally with the previously issued ammo the projectile turns from it's original path and breaks in two pieces with many sub projectiles spinning wildly off beyond the wound channel. The steel core ammo dampens it's previously great stopping power By not allowing the ammo to break up in the body. The military "fixed" a non problem and made it worse. With civilian based FMJ and softpoint ammo, it is a force to be recconed with. It is an super effective round with the RIGHT ammo. Best.

Pal334
08-11-2009, 05:41 PM
We must again agree to disagree. I stand by my approx 34 years experience with it. I had too many, (3) people run with 3 in the chest. Once in 1973 and two during the current unpleasantries. Just added my opinion for whatever it may be worth.

Pict
08-11-2009, 05:52 PM
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9440/gunarreceiverclose.jpg

My AR is kind of an oddball. It has the old style sights, but the forward assist and brass deflector. It also sports a Nam-era chrome barrel and the old triangular fore grip. Oddly enough mine runs best dry.

The upper is from a Canadian C7.



Mac

oldsoldier
08-11-2009, 06:20 PM
Pal..... that's the wonderful thing about america ( at least for now) and this forum. Everyone has the right to his/her opinion even rick. I Love my AR but I love my barrett even more. Comparing the AR/M16/M4 to other weapons on the market AK,SKS. whatever I prefer the AR weight is one consideration among many. I am sure you have your favorite weapon be it long gun, handgun, auto, wheel gun, bolt action semi auto whatever it is if it works for you then that is the best weapon and most reliable one for you. No one's weapon choice is the wrong one it's just not the right one for everyone. That's where uncle sammy made his mistake

Pal334
08-11-2009, 06:26 PM
Pal..... that's the wonderful thing about america ( at least for now) and this forum. Everyone has the right to his/her opinion even rick. I Love my AR but I love my barrett even more. Comparing the AR/M16/M4 to other weapons on the market AK,SKS. whatever I prefer the AR weight is one consideration among many. I am sure you have your favorite weapon be it long gun, handgun, auto, wheel gun, bolt action semi auto whatever it is if it works for you then that is the best weapon and most reliable one for you. No one's weapon choice is the wrong one it's just not the right one for everyone. That's where uncle sammy made his mistake

You are correct sir :) That is why I left it as my opinion only. Share what experience I have had and everyone is free to cull out what they like or dislike. . And believe me, I know I am in the minority with this opinion :) Now as to Rick? Mmmm , ok I will go along with that :), what the heck

Rick
08-11-2009, 06:30 PM
Sadly, I have no opinions.

oldsoldier
08-11-2009, 07:06 PM
Sadly, I have no opinions.

Sooooo what else is new?? Oops sorry read it wrong thought you said you had no opinion that counts LOL

SARKY
08-11-2009, 07:14 PM
Hey glockcop.....the key word in your post is wound as not kill outright! That is why I think the caliber stinks for anything over 90 lbs. I'm not real happy with the 6.8 being shoved down throats either. The 6.5 Grendel is another story, way more energy than the .223, similar trajectory to a .308 and it fits in an AR platform. Another aspect I don't like is that damm filthy gas impingment system! The new short stroke upgrades I do like, runs cooler and cleaner.

Badawg
08-11-2009, 07:36 PM
Not a big fan... Went I went to buy an Assault rifle, the first thing on the list was "Chambered in.308"...

I'm not saying it's a bad gun, just don't like the round or the gas system on them. They are plenty light though, I will give you that.

glockcop
08-11-2009, 08:46 PM
Hey glockcop.....the key word in your post is wound as not kill outright! That is why I think the caliber stinks for anything over 90 lbs. I'm not real happy with the 6.8 being shoved down throats either. The 6.5 Grendel is another story, way more energy than the .223, similar trajectory to a .308 and it fits in an AR platform. Another aspect I don't like is that damm filthy gas impingment system! The new short stroke upgrades I do like, runs cooler and cleaner.

"Wound"....Hmmmm.....How in the hell does death occure from a gun shot? It sure doesn't ugly them to death. The bad guys die from their wounds. I did not mean that it is a good "wounder". I meant that it is a good killer. It does work well. Maybe some people need to understand that no gun is a death ray and that the same exact shot may have a different effect on the next perp or insurgent. NOTHING works like in the movies...Well maybe that Barrett is the exception:) Fellas, I said it once and and I'll say it again, "All firearms suck at stopping determined humans". Sh*t, I even witnessed a guy take a .308 to the upper right chest and still fight for a few minutes. The chest shot was "thrown" but none the less it "should have been" more effective sooner. I don't see anyone calling the .308 a varmint gun. The 5.56x45 works as well as anything else. In Viet Nam most soldiers hated the reliability of the M-16 (those problems have been long solved). Most also loved it's ability to inflict terrible wounding to the enemy, which resulted in timely death. Ask a Viet Nam vet or two about it. My father and a few of his friends were "IN COUNTRY" and used the older issued ammo. Their view is that it did indeed work well. I just got off the phone with him to confirm this. Why don't the na sayers volunteer for the old magician's "bullet catch trick" with a 5.56x45, being that it is little more than a rabbit gun and all (figuratively speaking of course). That was my father's suggestion. Since you guys are not insane I guess there will be no show tonight. You don't have to like it. That is one of the rights of this great country. I may not agree with what ya say but I'll fight any enemy for your right to disagree. Keep those minds stong guys for this spirited debate. This is going to be an interesting verbal interaction. Let's roll with it and have fun.

The gas system is just fine if you know how to clean your weapon. All piston systems provide is more parts to wear out and malfunction. Over hyped fad. Simple is better. They do run cleaner, I'll give em that but so what. You ARE gonna clean your weapon after shooting anyway right? Well you should. I'm gonna need some proof on the whole "runs cooler" thing. Yes, the gas tube heats up quick but the chamber and bolt are a different story. Those two areas are gonna get hot regardless. I have also harvested deer with the 5.56x45 with great success at 35 yards, 60 yards, and 105 yards respectively using Hornady TAP and Federal Tactical both in 55 gr. ammo. Behind the shoulder shots. They also weighed more than "90lbs" thank you very much. The 30-30 or 30-06 is my prefered deer getters though. Just a little more margin for error. I don't believe that those deer needed the extra oomph mind you. I'm gonna take from Pal's post and reafirm that this is all just opinion , mine and about 5 other guys (my father and his brothers of war and another being my previous Lt.). We have seen it work and fail. Like I already said, nothing is a death ray but the 5.56x45 with civilian soft point ammo works way better than some would have you believe! Well since the m-16 / m4 is the most accurate "GENERAL ISSUE" military rifle out there , maybe some marksmanship training is needed for those who can't use it effectively. Sarky, I suggest you don't let anyone shove unwanted things down your throat, I sure wouldn't...HeHeHe. I'm talking about the 6.8 round of course. Sorry, I could't resist. And Pal, aren't you getting a little too old to be running around the Afgan sand pit? Just poking fun at yall....Take it easy and slowly back away from the Howitzers. Stay safe ya'll. Best.

Lothaen
08-11-2009, 11:18 PM
here is some useful info...

if you want an AR15 that will, in theory, have the longest lifespan I would suggest looking for a twenty inch rifle. The length of the gas system increases dwell time in the chamber before extraction and thus the pressure the case exerts against the chamber wall is also decreased. This results in a case that is easier for the bolt to extract than a carbine length gas system. A carbine begins to extract the casing while pressures are astronomically high... the case simply doesn't want to come out as easy since it is pressing against the side of the chamber with so much pressure. Thus we see these little kits for carbines that increase the force with which the extractor holds the case rim by installing stiffer springs and little rubber plugs... if it needs that extra force to pull the case out of the chamber it would be due to the gun working outside its initial design parameters!

A rifle length gas system also delivers less pressure to the bolt and again begins the unlock cycle at a slower timing and with less force. The AR15 was designed around a rifle length gas system... not saying carbine rifles don't work, but if you want to increase rifle service life and reliability choose a mid-length or rifle length gas system.

Furthermore, the rifle and mid-length gas systems have a longer sight radius giving the shooter more finesse with iron-sights aiming.

A future post in this thread will be on where to find the CHEAPEST components to build a reliable, quality made AR15. I know some good secrets. :)

SARKY
08-11-2009, 11:42 PM
Lothaen, you are right and wrong, it isn't so much the length of the barrel as where the gas block is located on the barrel. Most of the custom shop put the gas block forward even on their shorter barrels for just the reason you stated.

Lothaen
08-12-2009, 01:15 AM
I didn't state exactly that, but I wrote it with the understanding that readers would get that longer the gas system (and ergo where the block is mounted on the barrel) the longer the chamber dwell time before the bolt unlocks and attempts to extract the spent casing. The three "typical" lengths of gas tube are rifle, mid-length, and carbine length. Rifle length = lowest chamber pressure, carbine length = highest. Mid length is a compromise typically found on 16 inch carbines. :smash:

Mountain Man
08-12-2009, 03:19 AM
My opinion of the AR15 is that it's OVER RATED... that's it ;) It's fun to shoot, but OMG is it ever over rated! Especially on the web.

Pal334
08-12-2009, 05:25 AM
Glockcop: "And Pal, aren't you getting a little too old to be running around the Afgan sand pit? Just poking fun at yall...."
You just ain't "whistling Dixie" there (actually was Iraq). Was 52 last time, and I stress LAST TIME. All done with it now, just teach and pester other folks with my opinions :)

glockcop
08-12-2009, 10:28 AM
Glockcop: "And Pal, aren't you getting a little too old to be running around the Afgan sand pit? Just poking fun at yall...."
You just ain't "whistling Dixie" there (actually was Iraq). Was 52 last time, and I stress LAST TIME. All done with it now, just teach and pester other folks with my opinions :)

I am very glad you are out of harms way and back on American soil where we can pay higher taxes to take care of those that refuse to take care of themselves and eventually die broke, silenced, and unarmed:clap: Isn't is nice to Live in the land of the "tempoarily" free after all the sacrifices that guys like you have made for this country. Thanks for your service. Take care brother.

Pal334
08-12-2009, 06:53 PM
Perhaps this is a firearm that we all can agree on :)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a4_1249944534

Rubber Band Machine Gun

oldsoldier
08-12-2009, 08:07 PM
Perhaps this is a firearm that we all can agree on :)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a4_1249944534

Rubber Band Machine Gun

You'll shoot your eye out Ralph...... er ah i mean pal

Pal334
08-12-2009, 08:23 PM
You'll shoot your eye out Ralph...... er ah i mean pal

Yup, your right,,, Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt

Rick
08-12-2009, 08:31 PM
Mr. Pal! What is that you have in your hand? Bring it up here. You know better than to bring machine guns into class. Now just put it right there on my desk. You can have your parents pick it up if you like. Now, take your seat, mister.

Pal334
08-12-2009, 08:43 PM
Mr. Pal! What is that you have in your hand? Bring it up here. You know better than to bring machine guns into class. Now just put it right there on my desk. You can have your parents pick it up if you like. Now, take your seat, mister.

Thats almost an exact replay of my school days!! Without the machine gun of course:innocent:

Rick
08-12-2009, 08:52 PM
Hey, I heard that so much it's ingrained into my itty bitty brain. Only they called me, Rick....'cause that's my name.

erunkiswldrnssurvival
08-12-2009, 08:55 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Savage this is a weapon worth having

2dumb2kwit
08-12-2009, 09:28 PM
How about a little AR humor???
Actually...AK/AR/Mosin humor. LOL:innocent:

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

Rick
08-13-2009, 01:13 AM
So how does the Ruger SR-556 stack up on the AR line?

aflineman
08-13-2009, 01:23 AM
So how does the Ruger SR-556 stack up on the AR line?
Hard to say. It is fairly new. Ruger does some things right, and other things are just OK.

glockcop
08-13-2009, 09:16 AM
Perhaps this is a firearm that we all can agree on :)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a4_1249944534

Rubber Band Machine Gun

That is just cool. Your kids can play hell on that odd house fly or wasp that makes it's way inside.:)

Pal334
08-13-2009, 09:29 AM
that Is Just Cool. Your Kids Can Play Hell On That Odd House Fly Or Wasp That Makes It's Way Inside.:)

Not The Kids!!!! me :)