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COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 07:17 PM
Any one ever considered a bayonet on a home defense shotgun? I had the idea and was brainstorming if it was practical. I am not suggesting it just wanted to ponder it a bit.

pocomoonskyeyes
07-31-2009, 07:20 PM
It will work - stick - then pull the trigger. No more intruder.

Rick
07-31-2009, 07:25 PM
Mossberg 590A1 comes equipped with a bayonet lug. They also sell the bayonet.

http://img.geocaching.com/user/0cc2ad6d-e6b2-4fa7-85fd-8e669f7bc0d6.jpg

http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=26&section=products

Pal334
07-31-2009, 07:29 PM
Although I must admit it would be an imposing sight. I think a good barometer of its utility, could be that no major military power places much if any emphasis on bayonet practice or usage. As a matter of fact, I don't think it is even a standard issue item anymore (may be wrong, but I think that is true) for the U.S. military. I have seen and handled some the old "trench guns" that had bayonet lugs. But what the heck, why not?

COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 07:33 PM
Point taken... I was considering it for a .410 for the wife. It is a bolt action and I was thinkin it might help allow another round to be chambered if predator is down but not out...

Rick
07-31-2009, 07:36 PM
I think a lot of it has to do with fads. What's cool this week. Mossberg came out with the lug and guys were drooling 'cause it was so cool. Now Mossberg offers the bayonet with the weapon. Some Mossberg salesman will convince an officer with a 511 background that it's the toughest thing since sliced bread and next year everyone will be slinging one.

Pal334
07-31-2009, 07:39 PM
Here are some sites that have uses for the bayonet lug, and one actually has an add on lug

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=23100/Product/AR_15_M16_BAYONET_LUG_ACCESSORY_MOUNT

http://www.botachtactical.com/iti.html

http://www.botachtactical.com/kzm4balugmo.html

http://www.sjhardware.com/870Bayo.html an add on bayonet lug


Maybe there is an actual use for one after all

COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 07:40 PM
I had no idea anyone was marketing one. I was gonna make it... If I thought it would be effective? I am just brainstorming. Thanks for any input. I learned as a Six Sigma Blackbelt that the start of any project should begin this way. Ask QC what my cert. means and if he doesn't know I wouldn't keep him around!

pocomoonskyeyes
07-31-2009, 07:44 PM
Someone who can save a co. about a 1/4 mil per project?

COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 07:46 PM
You got it Poco! nailed it right on the head, first project saved 300K.

pocomoonskyeyes
07-31-2009, 07:50 PM
a quick search is the reason, a quick scan read and back to the forum with the answer. one reason why I have so many search bars on my browser.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 07:54 PM
Most only think Karate... It was a grueling body of knowledge. Once your certified it is expected that you will save your salary every year. If you ever want more pressure in a job get into Quality Mngt.

Pal334
07-31-2009, 08:04 PM
Never been a fan of Six Sigma, at the corporation I am consulting at , seems to be an excuse to plan and meet, not much real work gets done

pocomoonskyeyes
07-31-2009, 08:05 PM
Well I'll admit that was my first thought but it sounded like a trick question, so I "researched" it before answering. I'm sure QC would've gotten the answer had he been paying attention. I just beat 'im to it.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 08:24 PM
Pal, I could see it going that way very easy. It has to have effective project manager. I can send you my project by email if your interested. Cool to be a consultant I see that in my future. What is the basis of your consultation if you don't mind if I ask. By the way I see this as a survival question, I wanna be working later in life! Helps me survive!

crashdive123
07-31-2009, 08:28 PM
The advantage of putting a bayonet on a shotgun over a rifle is that removal of the person at the end of the bayonet is so much easier with the shotgun.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 08:38 PM
Yeah my ole lady would be upset if she got red stuff on her shoes!

Pal334
07-31-2009, 08:39 PM
Pal, I could see it going that way very easy. It has to have effective project manager. I can send you my project by email if your interested. Cool to be a consultant I see that in my future. What is the basis of your consultation if you don't mind if I ask. By the way I see this as a survival question, I wanna be working later in life! Helps me survive!

Corporate Security,, working off of skills from two previous careers. Speciality foreign travel, building consulting for high risk areas and support for employees deployed overseas. I am a one horse show, so I don't get involved in the Sima kind of think, got a bad taste in past life and the current folks. I only started this because I had retired twice by age 48, and was not ready to sit on the porch so to speak, but two more years and am done completely. It is amazing what people will pay for from an "expert" (their definition, not mine :) )

COWBOYSURVIVAL
07-31-2009, 08:53 PM
Thankyou for that Pal, I am well on my way in my opinion unless plastic wins out over steel in every application. It'll be a different venue, and I see it being along from now. Hey, you gotta have a plan. I could do more with it now but I am content and have a fair amount of time for family. I do travel as an ISO Auditor but keep it to a minimum. My job title is Quality Mngr./Mfg. Engineer and when that is done I am on the outside.. Huntin', Fishin, or just horsin' around!

Rick
08-01-2009, 12:46 AM
Six Sigma is a wonderful concept. The execution is generally its limiting trademark. I haven't seen very many companies that have support from the top down over a sustained period of time. It's sort of like one of the moving shooting galleries at the fair. Executive management keeps seeing a different target and it's hard to focus.

As for being an affective project manager. That's an oxymoron. Been there, done that, as they say. All of the responsibility and given none of the authority. I completed all of the classes and testing for project management and then figured out executive management was still looking at that shooting gallery.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-01-2009, 08:50 AM
Rick,

Good points, I have seen that side of it too. If you have the right project with enough $$$ value you get support a plenty. Smaller projects have eluded me repeatedly. After a company adapts the culture all the low hangin' fruit dries up.

Rick
08-01-2009, 04:35 PM
The sad part is if a company would stand firm on its principles then the savings can be substantial if the project management is handled the way it's suppose to be. But it's a long step between theory and practice.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-01-2009, 05:35 PM
It was the hardest discipline to learn and that is what it takes a disciplined approach. Companies with a strong QMS with committment focused on "Continual Improvement" should be able to support the requirements. So, yes it boils down to management responsibility. Welcome to the world I live in! Through implementing these types of programs my company has driven cost to a level that allows us to compete with Mexico labor rates. We are now the worlds largest industrial battery manufacture. The facility where I work manufactures the steel chests for batteries in electric forktrucks, Navy ships, Coal Mine equipment, etc as well as seismic rated steel racks and stationary steel battery cases for cell phone towers, data backup systems, and railroad crossings, etc. We have an electric tugboat trial and electric sport utility trials in the works. We just designed a hydrogen fuel cell for a forklift as well as lithium Ion for forklifts. The fuel cell was the highlight of my engineering career. We have just landed the Sears Diehard contract for the next 9 yrs. We also manufacture Deep Cycle and Marine Batteries. I have had the pleasure of auditing all of the Americas Facilities. I am responsible for ISO 9001:2008, UL listing, and MSHA certification. So far were holding up in this economy at about 20% decrease in sales.

Rick
08-01-2009, 07:45 PM
I am responsible for ISO 9001:2008, UL listing, and MSHA certification.

And that's before lunch! Seriously, that's a heavy agenda. The basic formula for success is increased revenue + decreased expenses. The real agenda for manufacturing, however, is improved productivity. How do you find time to work on knives?

glockcop
08-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Any one ever considered a bayonet on a home defense shotgun? I had the idea and was brainstorming if it was practical. I am not suggesting it just wanted to ponder it a bit.

A home defense shotgun will likely have an 18" barrel. This is the shortest legal length by Federal Law. This is still in the "long" ballpark for room to room entry work. A bayonet will do no more than add unwanted and unweildly length to your weapon and be counter productive to good tacticle utility. God forbid you ever have to use it and some slick dirt bag defense attorney (No Offense Ken) displays it in court to paint you to a jury as an "Out for blood murderer". The good guy has a hard enough time defending themselves in court without making the defence's job easier for them. I'd pass on the sh*t sticker. After that mouthful, here goes....It does look cool though doesn't it.:)

2dumb2kwit
08-05-2009, 10:44 PM
and some slick dirt bag defense attorney (No Offense Ken) displays it in court to paint you to a jury as an "Out for blood murderer". The good guy has a hard enough time defending themselves in court without making the defence's job easier for them.


I've heard tell of...uh hum:innocent:...some guys being told, in their conceal carry class, NOT to shoot a really tight group, when they qualify....for this very reason.:innocent:

glockcop
08-05-2009, 11:00 PM
I've heard tell of...uh hum:innocent:...some guys being told, in their conceal carry class, NOT to shoot a really tight group, when they qualify....for this very reason.:innocent:

That is pure CRAP! You should shoot as well as you can every time you "qualify". There is similar stupidity going around the cop world also. It does not make sense. Remember the defense attorney painting YOU as the wrong doer. Here goes...."My client was accidentally shot by an ill trained Rambo type when he was doing nothing illegal and minding his business". It is the cops or ccw holder's fault. As a cop I can tell you ,YOU will be guilty until proven innocent in court , within the department (internal affairs), and in front of the Grand Jury. It can go both ways. You should be able to show on paper your ability to carry out the willful intent to defend yourself or in a cop's case uphold the law. ALWAYS shoot to the best of your ability on paper for a "qualification", PERIOD!

2dumb2kwit
08-05-2009, 11:13 PM
The way I've heard it, is "If 'he' can shoot that good, 'he' could have shot to disable the person, rather than kill him."

I just hope that I never find out, for myself.

glockcop
08-05-2009, 11:28 PM
The way I've heard it, is "If 'he' can shoot that good, 'he' could have shot to disable the person, rather than kill him."

I just hope that I never find out, for myself.

You are not trained to "shoot to disable" or "shoot to stop the threat" or whatever flowerful crap fluff trainers used to say. That is old and out dated information. As a ccw or a cop you are trained to "shoot to kill" because that is the intent. That is the taught terminolgy in Police Academies across the country. If you did not intend to kill the suspect, then you could have used other means to bring closure to the incident. Since you chose lethal force there was no other alternative. Lethal force means "WILLFUL INTENT TO KILL". THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SEMI LETHAL FORCE aka "shooting to wound or disable". The end.

COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-06-2009, 12:02 AM
Night before last At 12:04 I was awake and heard smackk zzzzz smack! Immediately......I was stalking the yard with my Colt .38 and it would have been a mistake for anyone who was there....Honestly the protection of my family makes any laws residual....

Boker
08-06-2009, 12:14 AM
A home defense shotgun will likely have an 18" barrel. This is the shortest legal length by Federal Law. This is still in the "long" ballpark for room to room entry work. A bayonet will do no more than add unwanted and unweildly length to your weapon and be counter productive to good tacticle utility. God forbid you ever have to use it and some slick dirt bag defense attorney (No Offense Ken) displays it in court to paint you to a jury as an "Out for blood murderer". The good guy has a hard enough time defending themselves in court without making the defence's job easier for them. I'd pass on the sh*t sticker. After that mouthful, here goes....It does look cool though doesn't it.:)


I'd like to see Ken's thoughts on that, (Not the offense part). Could it be used in court against you?

glockcop
08-06-2009, 12:18 AM
Night before last At 12:04 I was awake and heard smackk zzzzz smack! Immediately......I was stalking the yard with my Colt .38 and it would have been a mistake for anyone who was there....Honestly the protection of my family makes any laws residual....

Cowboy, I can't agree more. If I have to use lethal force it will result in a dead bad guy, not a wounded one. My qualification scores will also reflect that it was a willful decision to kill due to there not being an alternative. Nothing accidental about it.:sneaky2: Brother, believe me, I hope you never have to face that decision and all the sh*t that comes with it. Best.

glockcop
08-06-2009, 01:48 AM
I'd like to see Ken's thoughts on that, (Not the offense part). Could it be used in court against you?

Boker, apparently you have not spent much time around criminal court and God bless you for it. An attorney's job is to create doubt in the minds of the jury members. Anything goes in the dirty world of who can spin the best yarn (court). Any tactic to cause doubt and/or confusion will be used. I've seen it many times. Your character will be challenged on anything the defence can trump up or create up to the point of irrelavence. As said earlier no offense Ken. This is not ment as an attack on you personally or your professsion. By the way ya'll....This thread has gotten way off track. Lets try to help cowboy out with info pertinant to his question.

Rick
08-06-2009, 04:31 AM
Hey CS. Did you ever figure out what went smackk zzzzz smack?

COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-06-2009, 06:17 AM
The herd boss may have kicked one of the other horses....they are behind the house. I can't say for sure. No evidence of a shot fired was left.

2dumb2kwit
08-06-2009, 09:37 AM
An attorney's job is to create doubt in the minds of the jury members. Anything goes in the dirty world of who can spin the best yarn (court). Any tactic to cause doubt and/or confusion will be used. I've seen it many times. Your character will be challenged on anything the defence can trump up or create up to the point of irrelavence.

I hope I didn't confuse anyone, with what I posted. All of the stuff I posted was referring to what would make it easier in court. (For the reasons you just explained.)

I agree with you guys. Defending yourself and your family is priority #1.

2dumb2kwit
08-06-2009, 09:45 AM
I'd like to see Ken's thoughts on that, (Not the offense part). Could it be used in court against you?

I kinda doubt that Ken can answer this. If he did, then that would kinda make him responsible for anyone who acted on his advice.

IMHO, anything that a lawyer can get people (a jury) to believe, could be used against you. That's why I think that if you ever need a lawyer, you need to cough up the money and get the best one around. I would want to be sure that the guy trying to keep me out of jail, is better than the guy trying to put me in jail!

Mind you...this is all just my opinion, and we all know that I'm not very smart! LOL :innocent:

glockcop
08-06-2009, 09:50 AM
I kinda doubt that Ken can answer this. If he did, then that would kinda make him responsible for anyone who acted on his advice.

IMHO, anything that a lawyer can get people (a jury) to believe, could be used against you. That's why I think that if you ever need a lawyer, you need to cough up the money and get the best one around. I would want to be sure that the guy trying to keep me out of jail, is better than the guy trying to put me in jail!

Mind you...this is all just my opinion, and we all know that I'm not very smart! LOL :innocent:

You are a smart man. lawyers are great when they are on your side.:) A really good Def. Att. can make you the criminal in the minds of the jury real quick like. Best

2dumb2kwit
08-06-2009, 10:04 AM
Hey COWBOY....if you get you a Mosin M1891 w/bayo, you could stick the bad guys before they even get in the same room, with you! LOL:innocent:
(Those suckers are loooong!)

COWBOYSURVIVAL
08-06-2009, 10:19 AM
Glock,

All good points. I agree I think long guns are probably not the way to go on the inside. I also agree about the length of the bayonet on the inside. I think though if I persue clearing the property as I did the other night. I would reach for my 870 instead of the pistol though. I have a large property and alot of it is wooded. Clearing an outside threat might make the bayonet useful especially if I wind up close unknowingly. I kinda doubt that who in the heck would hang around long being stalked by a cowboy in his underwear!

Rick
08-06-2009, 11:25 AM
Whoa! Now there's a mental picture that will take all day for me to get rid off. Now my head hurts!

pocomoonskyeyes
08-06-2009, 11:48 AM
Rick I wish you hadn't said anything now I have a picture of you in Cowboys shoes (Boots) and that is an even worse picture!!! Don't you wear a thong? EWWW!! You have got to have the BEST home defense system there ANY intruder would take one look and turn and run screaming!!! No shots fired, but you would still need a lawyer as the intruder would sue for emotional damage!!!
Cowboy I just don't know if the bayonet would be a good idea now that everyone has weighed in on the aftermath following (all the court drama). I know being an ex soldier I would be a great target for that defense lawyer 'cause everyone knows that soldiers are trained to kill. Actually we were told that it was better to wound, 'cause then it took at least 2 other soldiers to evac the wounded. So one shot removed 3 soldiers, at least in theory.

crashdive123
08-06-2009, 02:22 PM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1402/940035274_e973859a34.jpg

pocomoonskyeyes
08-06-2009, 02:40 PM
Crash That I so sooowrong on so many levels that I don't the whole internet could contain the list.

Rick
08-06-2009, 04:01 PM
Hey! It was Cowboy Survival running around in his skivies, not me.

Knock, knock, knock.

"Yes?"
"Pardon me, ma'am, but does this belong to you?"
"Yes, officer. He's my husband."
"He was running around in the yard in his skivvies."
"Bad CowboySurvival! You get in this house this minute. I'll take care of this, officer."
"Thank you, ma'am."

Pal334
08-07-2009, 07:39 AM
Well, it seems I was wrong about the utlity of bayonets in modern warfare. I do hereby start to consume my Humble Pie. Not sure if this is Brit speak, but "Good on ya boyos":thumbup1::thumbup:

British bayonet charge in BASRA.

Prepared by the U.S. Urban Warfare Analysis Center:

Executive Summary:

In May 2004, approximately 20 British troops in Basra were ambushed and forced out of their vehicles by about 100 Shiite militia fighters. When ammunition ran low, the British troops fixed bayonets and charged the enemy. About 20 militiamen were killed in the assault without any British deaths.

The bayonet charge appea More..red to succeed for three main reasons. First, the attack was the first of its kind in that region and captured the element of surprise. Second, enemy fighters probably believed jihadist propaganda stating that coalition troops were cowards unwilling to fight in close combat, further enhancing the element of surprise. Third, the strict discipline of the British troops overwhelmed the ability of the militia fighters to organize a cohesive counteraction.

The effects of this tactical action in Basra are not immediately applicable elsewhere, but an important dominant theme emerges regarding the need to avoid predictable patterns of behavior within restrictive rules of engagement. Commanders should keep adversaries off balance with creative feints and occasional shows of force lest they surrender the initiative to the enemy.

I. Overview of Bayonet Charge
On 21 May 2004, Mahdi militiamen engaged a convoy consisting of approximately 20 British troops from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 55 miles north of Basra. A squad from the Princess of Wales regiment came to their assistance. What started as an attack on a passing convoy ended with at least 35 militiamen dead and just three British troops wounded. The militiamen engaged a force that had restrictive rules of engagement prior to the incident that prevented them from returning fire. What ensued was an example of irregular warfare by coalition troops that achieved a tactical victory over a numerically superior foe with considerable firepower.

The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders are an infantry regiment of the British Army with a rich history. It is one of Scotland’s oldest fighting forces. It is best known for forming the legendry “thin red line” at the Battle of Balaklava in the Crimean War against Russia in 1854. It later fought with distinction in World War I and World War II, including intense jungle warfare in Malaya. After Iraq, it served in Afghanistan before returning home in2008.


Country: United Kingdom
Branch: Army, 16th Air Assault Brigade
Type: One of six Scottish line infantry regiments
Role: Air assault-Light role
Motto: Nemo Me Impune Lacessit

No One Assails Me With Impunity

Atmosphere Preceding the Attack

After a period of relative calm, attacks escalated after coalition forces attempted to arrest Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. British soldiers in southern Iraq said they were “stunned” by the level of violence near Basra. In particular, Mahdi militiamen conducted regular ambushes on British convoys on the roads between Basra and Baghdad.Frequent, uncoordinated attacks inflicted little damage, although precise data is unavailable in open sources. Since the Scottish and Welsh troops arrived in Basra, Shiite militias averaged about five attacks per day in Basra.


The Bayonet Charge


The battle began when over 100 Mahdi army fighters ambushed two unarmored vehicles transporting around 20 Argylls on the isolated Route Six highway near the southern city of Amarah. Ensconced in trenches along the road, the militiamen fired mortars, rocket propelled grenades, and machine gun rounds. The vehicles stopped and British troops returned fire. The Mahdi barrage caused enough damage to force the troops to exit the vehicles.The soldiers quickly established a defensive perimeter and radioed for reinforcements from the main British base at Amarah – Camp Abu Naji. Reinforcements from the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment assisted the Argyles in an offensive operation against the Mahdi militiamen. When ammunition ran low among the British troops, the decision was made to fix bayonets for a direct assault.



The British soldiers charged across 600 feet of open ground toward enemy trenches. They engaged in intense hand-to-hand fighting with the militiamen. Despite being outnumbered and lacking ammunition, the Argylls and Princess of Wales troops routed the enemy. The British troops killed about 20 militiamen in the bayonet charge and between 28 and 35 overall. Only three British soldiers were injured.This incident marked the first time in 22 years that the British Army used bayonets in action. The previous incident occurred during the Falklands War in 1982.




II. Why the Bayonet Charge Was a Tactical Success

The bayonet charge by British troops in Basra achieved tactical success primarily because of psychological and cultural factors. It also shows that superior firepower does not guarantee success by either side. In this case, the value of surprise, countering enemy expectations, and strict troop discipline were three deciding characteristics of the bayonet charge.


Surprise as a Weapon


The Mahdi fighters likely expected the British convoy to continue past the attack. Previous convoys of British vehicles had driven through ambush fire. British military sources believe the militiamen miscalculated the response of the convoy and expected the Scots to flee.

• Although the raid is a well-honed tactic practiced by jihadist and Arab irregulars, the surprise raid has been an effective tool against Arab armies, both regular and irregular.


Irregular fighters usually are not trained in the rigid discipline that professional counterparts possess, and the surprise attack exploits this weakness.


Enemy Expectation that Coalition Troops Would Avoid Combat


Propaganda by Sunni and Shiite jihadists regularly advertised the perception that American and British soldiers were cowards. Similar rhetoric increased after the battles of Fallujah in April2004, perhaps to steady the resolve of militia fighters in the face of aggressive coalition attacks.


In addition, British convoys did not engage significantly during previous ambushes, which probably validated the narrative for many Mahdi militiamen. Because many of the Mahdi fighters were teenagers, it is also likely that the Mahdi army used these ambushes for training and recruiting. The attacks were an opportunity for young fighters to use weapons in combat with little risk of serious reprisal.

• In short, the bayonet charge not only surprised the Mahdi militiamen, it also debunked the perception that coalition troops were reluctant fighters seeking to avoid conflict.



"I wanted to put the fear of God into the enemy. I could see some dead bodies and eight blokes, some scrambling for their weapons. I’ve never seen such a look of fear in anyone’s eyes before. I’m over six feet; I was covered in sweat, angry, red in the face, charging in with a bayonet and screaming my head off. You would be scared, too."

Corporal Brian Wood
Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment



"There was a lot of aggression and a lot of hand-to-hand fighting. It wasn’t a pleasant scene. Some did get cut with the blades of the bayonet as we tumbled around, but in the end, they surrendered and were controlled. I do wonder how they regard life so cheaply. Some of these Iraqis in those trenches were 15 years old – against trained soldiers."

Colonel Mark Byers
Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment

Strict Discipline

A crucial distinction during the bayonet charge was the professional discipline of the British troops in contrast to the disunity and confusion of the militia fighters. Irregular militia often fight with passion and benefit from knowledge of the local terrain. Professional soldiers, however, formally trained in tactics and squad unity can often overcome these and other obstacles. During the bayonet charge, the soldiers rarely lost their nerve and not a single soldier lost his life.

Beo
08-09-2009, 07:16 PM
Just a note, the U.S. Army still issues bayonet's and it is still a part of Infantry training. Although when I was in Afghanistan most carried a good fixed blade or good folder.
Beo,