PDA

View Full Version : Which do you prefer?



tacticalguy
06-10-2009, 08:03 PM
What I want to know is which of these two very awesome calibers do you think is better? Hmmmm????

Rick
06-10-2009, 08:04 PM
I think that one. No, wait, that one. Yeah, that one. I'm sure. What two calibers?

tacticalguy
06-10-2009, 08:06 PM
I think that one. No, wait, that one. Yeah, that one. I'm sure. What two calibers?

the uhh top two calibers. see um?

Rick
06-10-2009, 08:11 PM
Yep! ......

rat31465
06-10-2009, 08:15 PM
With modern 9 mm ammo being what it is today I will take my 9mm Glock 17 and a couple of high cap mags.
I have owned many 1911's in .45 ACP and love the firearm and round....but I will take the superior penetration of the higher velocity 9mm and count on expansion and firepower to make up for its lack of diameter.

crashdive123
06-10-2009, 08:17 PM
I like em both. (hope so, I own weapons in both calibers)

Ken
06-10-2009, 08:19 PM
Colt Combat Commander. .45 ACP. Love that gun.

Pal334
06-10-2009, 08:35 PM
1911 for me, it always works.

welderguy
06-10-2009, 09:01 PM
I own both calibers, but tend to lean toward my 1911. well actually its the only one I carry all the time.

oldsoldier
06-11-2009, 02:17 AM
I'll have to go with my 9mm ammo is lighter so I can carry more in an emergency. I've got a taurus 24/7 pro with half a dozen 17 rd. mags.

SARKY
06-11-2009, 12:58 PM
I have to agree with oldsoldier, tha and the fact that there are many more carbines available for the 9 then there are for the .45.

Rick
06-11-2009, 01:00 PM
That's a good point, Sarky. I have two carbines in 9mm along with my personal .9mm carry.

SARKY
06-11-2009, 01:10 PM
I really like the idea of a pistol/carbine combo, it means carrying only one caliber. I have pistol/carbine combos in .22lr, .22mag, .357, 9mm, and .41mag

Ole WV Coot
06-11-2009, 05:25 PM
Probably right about more 9 being available worldwide but I carry a 45 Beretta Cougar and leave the 9s in the cabinet.

tacticalguy
06-11-2009, 08:24 PM
I'll have to go with my 9mm ammo is lighter so I can carry more in an emergency. I've got a taurus 24/7 pro with half a dozen 17 rd. mags.

But, if you have bigger/harder hitting rounds you don't need the extra ammo.

crashdive123
06-11-2009, 08:31 PM
But, if you have bigger/harder hitting rounds you don't need the extra ammo.

The amount of ammunition you need all depends on how many targets you have to shoot.

tacticalguy
06-11-2009, 08:33 PM
The amount of ammunition you need all depends on how many targets you have to shoot.

yeah thats true.... But you could always opt for a ten round mag.

crashdive123
06-11-2009, 08:36 PM
I kind of count my ammunition in the hundreds and thousands, not by the magazine capacity.

Rick
06-11-2009, 08:36 PM
The amount of ammunition you need all depends on how many targets you have to shoot.

You've obviously never seen me shoot.

tacticalguy
06-11-2009, 08:37 PM
I kind of count my ammunition in the hundreds and thousands, not by the magazine capacity.

oh i didn't know you meant that.

rat31465
06-11-2009, 08:58 PM
But, if you have bigger/harder hitting rounds you don't need the extra ammo.

Personally I dont believe that any standard pistol cartridge will provide one shot stopping power whether it be a small bore .357/9mm or a big bore .44/45 (Magnum cartridges not included here).
If you are commited to pulling the trigger on an assailant...you should be planning on shooting til they quit fighting back anyway and most of the people I know can and do shoot a 9mm better than the harder recoiling .45.

Statistically...Unless your comparing hardball ammo rounds the venerable .45 acp doesn't carry any better stopping power than the 9 mm does when high quality ammo is used in both.
If one of these cartridges really had a big advantage over the other one then we wouldn't have seen the introduction of the .40 or the .357 Sig or the
9X21.
This 9mm vs .45 arguement all began when the United States Military announced its intention to adopt a High Capacity 9mm service pistol.
Some of our Military Brass didn't like the idea that this contract would likely not be won by an American company and so began a propaganda campaign to try and skew political and public opinion, much like the fight to adopt the M-14 rifle instead of the AR-15.

While I am arguing the benefits of the 9mm...If you took away the benefits of high capacity and I were limited to say 10 round magazine capacity...then I would be throwing .451 dia, 230 gr slugs out the end of a 1911 Commander.
From the standpoint of a home defense firearm that is to also be used as a survival weapon in a SHTF scenario....I have to give the thumbs up to the 9mm round.

Rick
06-11-2009, 09:03 PM
That would be an 18 and that wasn't a choice. I thought about postiing half a vote. I voted for 9 and the would be 4.5. Pretty close, don't you think?

Pal334
06-11-2009, 09:10 PM
Fact of the matter is, when given a choice, by hook or by crook, professional military folks are going back to the 1911 due to the fact it always works and is a consistent one shot show stopper. If you could do an equipment check on Special forces units, and some of the airborne units as they enter the sandbox, I would guess that 30% or more have some how gotten their hands on a 1911 for their personal side arm.The choice for switching to the 9mm berreta 92F was based on the theory that it would be easier and more economical way to train the average troop in pistolmanship. The reality is with proper training, the average "snuffy" can be trained quite readily on the 1911. On paper there does not seem to be a real discrepancy but in the real world there is absolutely no comparison. And as to high capacity, it does seem to encourage "spray and pray" during an emergency. As a well known gun pundit, Mr Cooper once said "nobody has ever been killed by a loud noise".

SARKY
06-11-2009, 10:46 PM
Fact of the matter is, when given a choice, by hook or by crook, professional military folks are going back to the 1911 due to the fact it always works and is a consistent one shot show stopper. If you could do an equipment check on Special forces units, and some of the airborne units as they enter the sandbox, I would guess that 30% or more have some how gotten their hands on a 1911 for their personal side arm.The choice for switching to the 9mm berreta 92F was based on the theory that it would be easier and more economical way to train the average troop in pistolmanship. The reality is with proper training, the average "snuffy" can be trained quite readily on the 1911. On paper there does not seem to be a real discrepancy but in the real world there is absolutely no comparison. And as to high capacity, it does seem to encourage "spray and pray" during an emergency. As a well known gun pundit, Mr Cooper once said "nobody has ever been killed by a loud noise".

You are comparing apple to oranges! The military is limited to full metal jacketed "ball" ammo. We are not! I can use a high performance jacketed hollow point bullet that will give me the same dumping of energy on target that the .45 will. The nine will hold more ammo and is easier to shoot for most people. That being said, I do have a Beretta 92 and a para ordnance p-12 (3 rounds difference between the 2 and the para is smaller)

kx250kev
06-12-2009, 12:22 AM
My $.02...get both...eventually, but first buy the 9 mm for a SHTF weapon You can carry more 9mm ammo. Later you can pair it up with a 9mm carbine for the ultimate SHTF combo.

oldsoldier
06-12-2009, 12:19 PM
That's why crash said 100's and 1000's we've heard about your shootin' that's okay keep trying if you send enough ammo down range you'll eventually get lucky! ( just kidding but that one was to hard to resist

erunkiswldrnssurvival
06-12-2009, 12:24 PM
What I want to know is which of these two very awesome calibers do you think is better? Hmmmm????

big gun ... toy gun... did you have to ask?

Pal334
06-12-2009, 01:16 PM
You are comparing apple to oranges! The military is limited to full metal jacketed "ball" ammo. We are not! I can use a high performance jacketed hollow point bullet that will give me the same dumping of energy on target that the .45 will. The nine will hold more ammo and is easier to shoot for most people. That being said, I do have a Beretta 92 and a para ordnance p-12 (3 rounds difference between the 2 and the para is smaller)

Fresh fruits are healthy :) I am a simple guy, so I stay with the time proven way of doing things usually. You are correct if you get into the high peformance stuff, eventually it will out do the .45. Always has been difficult to beat the old hardball it always works.

rat31465
06-12-2009, 02:27 PM
Fact of the matter is, when given a choice, by hook or by crook, professional military folks are going back to the 1911 due to the fact it always works and is a consistent one shot show stopper. If you could do an equipment check on Special forces units, and some of the airborne units as they enter the sandbox, I would guess that 30% or more have some how gotten their hands on a 1911 for their personal side arm.The choice for switching to the 9mm berreta 92F was based on the theory that it would be easier and more economical way to train the average troop in pistolmanship. The reality is with proper training, the average "snuffy" can be trained quite readily on the 1911. On paper there does not seem to be a real discrepancy but in the real world there is absolutely no comparison. And as to high capacity, it does seem to encourage "spray and pray" during an emergency. As a well known gun pundit, Mr Cooper once said "nobody has ever been killed by a loud noise".

Biggest problem that I see here is that the current trends and evidence available doesn't support these statements.

The 9mm was adopted by the United States in an attempt to standardize with U.N. NATO troops to make supplying troops easier...as well as allowing the soldier to carry more ammo for the same weight.

Here is some data from a poll on another forum that I found to be very interesting.
This Forum is compromised mainly of Professionals in Military and Law Enforcement.
The question in this poll asked.

If you were limited to one Autoloading Pistol Round?

cal % number of votes cast
.45………...34.58%......37
.40………….05.61%......06
9mm……....57.01%......61
.32 ACP.…..0.93%......01
22LR.........1.87%......02

This poll can be viewed at
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=18913&highlight=spray+pray

Pal334
06-12-2009, 04:33 PM
Biggest problem that I see here is that the current trends and evidence available doesn't support these statements.

The 9mm was adopted by the United States in an attempt to standardize with U.N. NATO troops to make supplying troops easier...as well as allowing the soldier to carry more ammo for the same weight.

Here is some data from a poll on another forum that I found to be very interesting.
This Forum is compromised mainly of Professionals in Military and Law Enforcement.
The question in this poll asked.

If you were limited to one Autoloading Pistol Round?

cal % number of votes cast
.45………...34.58%......37
.40………….05.61%......06
9mm……....57.01%......61
.32 ACP.…..0.93%......01
22LR.........1.87%......02

This poll can be viewed at
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=18913&highlight=spray+pray


So be it then :) I have learned not to argue with poll results :) My input is based on personal observation, and peripheral participation in the weapon selection process (interviewee and tester). and as a "user" downrange.

crashdive123
06-12-2009, 04:36 PM
and as a "user" downrangeBeats the heck out of being the reciever. If only we could find one that survived - now that might be a definitive answer.

Pal334
06-12-2009, 04:52 PM
Beats the heck out of being the reciever. If only we could find one that survived - now that might be a definitive answer.

You are correct being a down range "user" always appealed more to me than being a "reciever".
Unfortunately, contrary to other posts recently, there was never any intent to keep a miscreant around .One someone signals that they have hostile intent, there is only one true course of action. I guess this will remain one of histories greatest mysteries. Besides it will always be a source of lively opinion exchange.

Rick
06-12-2009, 08:32 PM
If I have a choice of wounding an intruder or killing him, dead, without life, for ever and ever. I know what I'll do.

"Well, officer, as I said on the forum MANY TIMES. I was only trying to wound him."

"But you unloaded a 13 round clip in him."

"Yeah. About that. I have this nervous twitch in my fingers."

Ole WV Coot
06-13-2009, 09:59 AM
I hate to show my age but.....since I carry a 45 Beretta anyone besides me remember the S&W Mod 60, 5 shot 38 that was very, very popular in the '60s if you went nite-nite in a hole in S.E. Asia? Sleeping with one in your hand was better than a teddy bear.

Rick
06-13-2009, 11:06 AM
I don't have the 60 but I do have the M&P model in .38. My uncle carried it in the 50's and 60's as a police officer in Salem, Or. That one gets TLC because it was his.

rat31465
06-13-2009, 12:31 PM
I don't own a model 60 either...but my Model 13 sure has given me comfort on more than one occasion.

rat31465
06-13-2009, 01:11 PM
So be it then :) I have learned not to argue with poll results :) My input is based on personal observation, and peripheral participation in the weapon selection process (interviewee and tester). and as a "user" downrange.

Pal334,
I don't put a whole lot of stock in poll results either, and I respect your observations. (Please don't think that it was my intent to Bash you.)
I have a reputation around my circle of friends and family for being the devils advocate.

Does anyone else find it curious that in the poll results I posted, the 22 LR scored better than the .32 ACP?

And that .380 ACP didn't even receive a single vote?

I think that would be an interesting poll in its own rights.

loki
06-13-2009, 01:12 PM
Ruger SR9 17+1. Yup, that'll do it.

Sourdough
06-13-2009, 01:39 PM
Most people vote to reinforce the choice that they already made. Most people have "NO" first hand field experience with terminal ballistic performance, and choose based on some magazine article advise. Both cartridges are WONDERFUL, and you can bet your life on either, assuming proper bullet placement. To strongly support one over the other, indicates you would prefer to be shot by your second choice........I don't want too stop either one, even at 300 Yards.

I voted for the 9MM however not because I think it is more GOOODER, but because I own a S&W M-39, and own no .45 ACP's at this time.

Pal334
06-13-2009, 01:53 PM
Pal334,
I don't put a whole lot of stock in poll results either, and I respect your observations. (Please don't think that it was my intent to Bash you.)
I have a reputation around my circle of friends and family for being the devils advocate.

Does anyone else find it curious that in the poll results I posted, the 22 LR scored better than the .32 ACP?

And that .380 ACP didn't even receive a single vote?

I think that would be an interesting poll in its own rights.

No offense taken. A bit of the devils advocating keeps us all honest :) I would not hesitate to use a 22lr as a backup. Due to it being inexpensive, can practice more. And fairly close up can have some really tight groups. If I recall correctly ,the 32 and 380 acp type cartridge were primarily developed and used by and for European police usage . And our American history of firearms early on was "bigger is better".

Pal334
06-13-2009, 01:56 PM
Most people vote to reinforce the choice that they already made. Most people have "NO" first hand field experience with terminal ballistic performance, and choose based on some magazine article advise. Both cartridges are WONDERFUL, and you can bet your life on either, assuming proper bullet placement. To strongly support one over the other, indicates you would prefer to be shot by your second choice........I don't want too stop either one, even at 300 Yards.

I voted for the 9MM however not because I think it is more GOOODER, but because I own a S&W M-39, and own no .45 ACP's at this time.

Well said, my choice does reflect real time usage, but I would say either one is much better than "chunking rocks"

rat31465
06-13-2009, 02:37 PM
The only real arguement I could give against using a .22 LR for a self defense weapon is the same one used hundreds of times in the past. That being the fact that it is a Rimfire and even high quality rimfire ammo tends to be less dependable than centerfire.
Saying that I have carried a Beretta Model 21-a as a defense gun in the past with no worries. CCI Stingers shot very well out of this little mouse gun and I don't know anyone who would relish the idea of taking hits from them.

I have this fascination with .32 cal firearms...whether it is Blackpowder or Smokeless.
It probably stems from my introduction to Revolvers by my father shooting his old Nickle Plated Smith and Wesson .32 Long. I believe it was a Model 12.

Ken
06-13-2009, 02:50 PM
The only real arguement I could give against using a .22 LR for a self defense weapon is the same one used hundreds of times in the past. That being the fact that it is a Rimfire and even high quality rimfire ammo tends to be less dependable than centerfire.
Saying that I have carried a Beretta Model 21-a as a defense gun in the past with no worries. CCI Stingers shot very well out of this little mouse gun and I don't know anyone who would relish the idea of taking hits from them.

I have this fascination with .32 cal firearms...whether it is Blackpowder or Smokeless.
It probably stems from my introduction to Revolvers by my father shooting his old Nickle Plated Smith and Wesson .32 Long. I believe it was a Model 12.

The first gun I ever fired was a 12 gauge. The first handgun I fired was a .32. I now own three .32 pistols. One is still my everyday carry because of its concealability and reliability. I know most of the other handguns I have are better overall choices, but I love my .32s.

crashdive123
06-13-2009, 02:52 PM
Does anyone else find it curious that in the poll results I posted, the 22 LR scored better than the .32 ACP?

And that .380 ACP didn't even receive a single vote?Dosen't suprise me at all. The .32 and .380 are being replaced with better rounds (IMO) on platforms that can be every bit as small and concealable as the .32 and .380. The 22 recieving more votes - inexpensive, lightweight, efficient for small game - at least that's why I would select the .22 over the other two.

Ken
06-13-2009, 03:01 PM
Understandable. I also have a special place in my heart for my .22s. Three rifles, three pistols. Long and short. My Walther P-22 is just fun to shoot. My Beretta Minx is a great pocket gun.

Sourdough
06-13-2009, 03:58 PM
I also have a special place in my heart for.


Ken, Does your Sweetie know about all these other loves......?:innocent:

Ken
06-13-2009, 04:03 PM
Ken, Does your Sweetie know about all these other loves......?:innocent:

Yeah, she does. She says it's okay as long as I don't bring them into bed with us. And get this, her daughters (15 & 18) and mine (22) all love to fire 'em. I started them all off with BB guns two years ago, and now have to include their ammo in our weekly budget.

donny h
06-13-2009, 09:05 PM
I voted for 9mm, .45 is a lot of fun, but 9mm is just more practical for me.


My $.02...get both...eventually, but first buy the 9 mm for a SHTF weapon You can carry more 9mm ammo. Later you can pair it up with a 9mm carbine for the ultimate SHTF combo.

Or take it one step farther, like I have, and get a Glock 17 or 34 (34 for me) along with a KelTec Sub2000 carbine that not only uses the same ammo, but also uses the same magazines.

A have a bunch of 17 and 33 round mags that work in either gun, and the Sub2k folds down to 16" long, neatly fitting into a daypack, making for a potent bug-out bag.

Those two weapons form the frontline of my portable self defense needs, along with a S&W340PD, which is a 2" barrel hammerless .357 revolver with a scandium frame that weighs only 11 ounces empty and 13 ounces loaded.

glockcop
06-14-2009, 12:06 AM
9mm for sure. 9mm = carry more ammo on your person, carry more ammo in the gun , cheap training ammo , found world wide, better second shot recovery time , better tacticle / intermediate barrier penetration, deabatably more reliable than a 1911....DEBATABLY. I now carry a 40 on the job but carried 9mm 124gr. +p+ ammo for years and never felt undergunned in some of the worst places immaginable. I had an old partner who had a run in with an sks weilding idiot who wanted to trade copper. This is the break down. Perp = 17 shot w/ no hits. Cop = 8 shots w/ two hit (chest/thigh). DEAD PERP! The 9mm works and works as well as anything else. I could give ya a couple more war stories but that is neither here nor there. Suffice to say the 9mm really does work damned well. Mostly Rookies dis the 9 because they havent seen all the cold slabed bangers that have fallen to the "Little Bitty 9mm". We veteran officers know that they all kill pretty good if you do your part.