Survive This!

[Rick]

Today is Saturday and you’ve decide to take a day hike with plans to return well before dark. The area you are hiking in is approximately 13,000 acres of uninhabited and rarely traveled wilderness. The area is a deciduous forest with trees averaging 60 years old. It’s mid-spring so undergrowth has yet to flourish making a hike off trail relatively easy. Traditional wild edibles, flora and fauna, can be expected for this time of year. There are no predatory animals to be concerned about.

Total distance for today’s hike is 12 miles. The day time temperature is 78F with night time temps hovering around 58F. You have taken with you, in your pack or on your person, the following items.

Camelbak Goblin butt pack with .8 L of water.
Kel-Tec PF9 weapon with 7 rounds of hollow point ammunition.
Kershaw lock blade folding knife in pocket
GI Canteen Cup
Esbit folding stove with 3 fuel tabs
3 Katadyn water purification tablets
1 butane lighter in pocket
1 mish metal flint rod
10 yards of paracord
1 micro light flashlight in pocket
Cell phone in pocket but no coverage in immediate area.
Compass in pocket
2 granola bars
1 chicken bouillon cube
2 small pieces of jerky
1 tea bag
1 bandana in your pocket

You have hiked in approximately 8 kilometers (5 miles) from your truck and enjoyed a nice lunch atop the highest ridge in the area. It’s a nice spot just above a dry but muddy creek bed and it affords a nice view of the area. For lunch, you consumed both pieces of jerky, one granola bar and .4 L of water. Your plan is to traverse 50 meters down the back side of the ridge, travel along the creek bed toward a water source, replenish your water and head back. You are approximately 2.4 kilometers (1.5 miles) from the water source. You put your pack back on with the open pack in front of you, pick up any debris you’ve left behind and start down the 45 degree incline while zipping up your pack. You snag your boot on a tree root and tumble about 35 meters down the side of the ridge landing face up. You assess your condition and find that the only thing that appears to be hurt is your ankle. It’s very painful and it is either broken or severely sprained. The skin is not broken but it is beginning to swell and turn a bluish color. You check your supplies and find that many of the items in your open butt pack are now scattered down the side of the ridge. Still in your pack are the following.

.4 L of water
Weapon and ammunition
GI Canteen cup
1 fuel tab
10 yards of paracord
1 tea bag

In your pockets you still have:

Kershaw folding lock blade knife
1 butane lighter
Cell phone with no coverage
1 microlight flashlight
1 compass
1 bandana

Scattered on the ridge but not visible are the following:

Esbit stove and 2 fuel tabs
The 3 Katadyn purification tablets
1 mish metal flint rod
1 Granola bar
1 chicken bouillon cube

Here is the area you are in along with the route you took, your intended route and where you are now located after the fall (red X):



http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=11&pictureid=726

No assumptions can be made. If it is not listed, you do not have it, have not done it or have no access to it. The above is the extent of materials, information and resources you have. I used the picture above so you could better see the terrain. However, the area is all forested.

Question 1: Name four (4) things you should have done prior to your accident. There will be more than 4 answers but name the 4 most important items you can think of.

Question 2: Explain how you will treat your ankle injury. Describe what materials, if any, you will use.

Question 3: Describe your next course of action.

Question 4: Explain how you will enhance your chances of a rescue.

I will allow the thread to run for a couple of days then post my answers. Good luck.

[doug1980]

Question 1
1. Told someone where I was headed.
2. Packed more medical supplies.
3. Paid better attention to the surroundings.
4. Not trip and fall down.

Question 2
Well having sprained my ankle about 30 times in my life, the last being so bad I had to crawl around, I would wrap it tightly with the bandana, tighten my boot up around it, and find a stick for walking assistance. I have found with a severe ankle sprain the best thing to do is keep using it, if you prop it up and keep off it you will NOT be able to walk on it. Keep walking on it gingerly.

Question 3
Keep moving and head back the way I came. It’s 5 miles back and even with a sprained ankle I should be able to reach my truck before nightfall. If not I can set up a quick shelter on the trail and continue out in the morning.

Question 4
Personally, in this case, would head out on my own. I would not even think of rescue as an option. Its 5 miles, on a trail I am familiar with, I’m not lost, and am still mobile a little slow but still able to head out on my own.

[Rick]

I'll make no critiques but I will ask questions along the way. What if the ankle is broken and not just sprained?

[Ken]

Okaaaaaaay.

Answer 1. (1) I should have left a copy of my hiking route and itinerary with someone responsible who was expecting a call from me when my hike was scheduled to be completed. A second copy of my route and itinerary should have been left folded on the driver's seat of my vehicle. (2) I should have had a map of the area with me. (3) I should have brought along a number of extra items with me that I neglected to pack (which I always carry) such as much more water, a signal mirror, whistle, space blanket, bivy bag, fire kit, extra food, first aid kit with meds, spot tracker, marine orange signal smoke, folding saw - the list goes on and on. I also keep a smaller kit, separate and apart from my pack, in a pocket at all times. I was woefully unequipped for this trek. (4) I should have zipped my pack up prior to moving and paid attention to where I was going.

Answer 2 & 3. Given my carelessess and lack of preparation, I'm not expecting that anyone will be out looking for me for a while. I need to get back to the trail and follow my route back. My best chances of rescue will be by meeting someone on the trail. My ankle isn't bleeding, and I have to hobble out on my own. I would loosen my boot to the degree necessary, but not remove it - not yet, anyway - because it will act as a splint. The bandana could be used on my ankle if necessary. I would locate a strong tree branch that I could use as a cane or crutch, suck up the pain, and work my way back to my vehicle on the trail.

Answer 4. I would stay on the trail and try my cellphone from time to time to see if I had service on my way back. If I wasn't back by dark, I would seek or devise a shelter trailside while I still had some daylight, light a fire if I could, and do my best to stay warm until morning - maybe a cup of tea would be in order - the temperatures aren't that low, but I realize that the pain of my injury alone could cause some degree of shock to set in, which would make me feel colder than normal. I would ration my water to the extent possible. As a last resort, I could fire my gun once (toward the ground at a point about 25 feet away - not in the air!!!) to attract the attention of rescuers if I had reason to believe any were nearby.

Answer 5. (Yeah, I know there wasn't a Question 5) I'd think up a good story about what happened to my ankle, just in case I made it out on my own, and would NEVER subject myself to the embarrassment of admitting how stupid I was in the first place. :innocent:

I'll probably edit this post somewhat after I re-read everythig over again.

[Beans]

“No assumptions can be made. If it is not listed, you do not have it”

Therefore I am naked except for my boots



Question #1
1. Notified someone of your plans including the route taken, and a map, time bracket for return, Failsafe time to notify rescue units. I would have also left the same information inside my truck.

2. Pay attention; don’t let distractions, sloppiness and hurriedness ruin your day.

3. All equipment including the pack should have been secured, zipped Etc before trying to traverse the terrain

4. Survey the route to determine what obstacles may pose a hazard, before trying to traverse the trail

Question #2 Ankle injury

The ankle should be secured/immobilized to prevent further injury. I would make a splint using the opened cell phone or any material that could be readily obtained and secured it to the ankle with the paracord. The ankle will continue to swell so make sure the splint is not tight enough to disrupt blood circulation, and still offer support.

When resting I would elevate the ankle to help reduce swelling.

Question #3

I would close the pack to insure I lost nothing else. Then I would safely continue the 15 meters downward to the muddy creek bottom. It will provide a source of water and should be a compatible area for edibles. I would also gather materials to build a fire during my travel downward.

Question #4

To obtain water I would dig, by hand, a hole in the muddy creek bottom to allow water to seep into it. The bandana would be used to filter the water; the canteen cup would become the water container and the boiling pot.

Using ½ the fuel tab*, the butane lighter and the materials gathered I would light the initial fire at night to boil the water and the fire would also become a signaling device.
• The other half of the fuel tab would be saved in case it was need to start a second fire.

The flashlight would be used for a signaling device when the rescuers arrived in the area.
The reflector could be removed from the flashlight in the daytime and used for a signaling device.

The fire would be kept burning as long as I could gather burning materials. I would also consume as much water as possible.
Drink as much water as you can, wait 30 minutes, empty your bladder and then drink as much as you hold.
The area would be surveyed for obtainable edibles, these items collected within my mobile area, to be consumed or to be stored for future use .

As a last resort I would crawl to the top of the ridge, bringing all my remaining equipment with me, and begin the slow painful trip to the start of my journey and rescue. A broken ankle hinders mobility but does not stop it completely.
Using your knife a cane/crutch could be fashioned. Crawling 5 miles on your knees can be done and it beats not being rescued.

[Sarge47]

Take the gun & shoot myself for neglecting to bring along the right stuff! Stupid is as stupid does! A 12 mile hike does not excuse you from bringing a fully loaded pack, complete with all the essentials one would need in any true survival situation; including a "walking staff or two"; that is "not being prepared", which is against my "outdoor religion". I cannot answer the question because it doesn't fit me!:cool2:

[doug1980]

I'll make no critiques but I will ask questions along the way. What if the ankle is broken and not just sprained?

Well I doubt I would be able to tell one way or the other. The last time a sprained mine I thought for sure it was broken but it wasn't. I guess if I thought it was broken I would make a splint with limbs and use the bandana to keep it tight. I would still find my own way out considering no one knows where I am and it is a remote area.

But I'm with sarge I would not have been so incompetent in the first place.

[Ken]

Well I doubt I would be able to tell one way or the other. The last time a sprained mine I thought for sure it was broken but it wasn't. I guess if I thought it was broken I would make a splint with limbs and use the bandana to keep it tight. I would still find my own way out considering no one knows where I am and it is a remote area.

But I'm with sarge I would not have been so incompetent in the first place.

C'mon, Guys! The best splint you'll get out there is the boot itself. Just make sure it's not too tight so as not to cut off blood circulation if the swelling gets worse. Back in the day, we used ankle air splints - they inflated in the shape of a boot. The purpose of a splint is to keep everything in place, and the boot will work just fine for that purpose.

[doug1980]

C'mon, Guys! The best splint you'll get out there is the boot itself. Just make sure it's not too tight so as not to cut off blood circulation if the swelling gets worse. Back in the day, we used ankle air splints - they inflated in the shape of a boot. The purpose of a splint is to keep everything in place, and the boot will work just fine for that purpose.

Yeah that's what I wrote in my first post. I have lots of experience in sprained ankles and those air splints work well.

[Ken]

Yeah that's what I wrote in my first post. I have lots of experience in sprained ankles and those air splints work well.

I just caught your first post. Sorry, I was responding to the "make a splint with limbs and use the bandana to keep it tight" statement.

[doug1980]

I just caught your first post. Sorry, I was responding to the "make a splint with limbs and use the bandana to keep it tight" statement.

Yeah not sure I would actually do that. Bottom line I would walk my butt out on my own and kick myself in the a$$ for being so stupid. :smash:

[FVR]

I'll def. be back tonight.

[FVR]

Okay, let's see.



Question 1: Name four (4) things you should have done prior to your accident. There will be more than 4 answers but name the 4 most important items you can think of.

Question 2: Explain how you will treat your ankle injury. Describe what materials, if any, you will use.

Question 3: Describe your next course of action.

Question 4: Explain how you will enhance your chances of a rescue.




1. a. Rendezvous time and route...at car......cell call as soon as out of the woods. b. Notify DNR that you will be taking a nice hike today. c. Better have checked weather conditions..no rain in the forcast and no freezing weather. d. Kiss you wife good buy and tell her you love her and the kids.

2. Ankle since no blood, the bandana and the rope along with a few short sticks will be used for a splint. If no pressure can be put on the foot, then the cup will come in handy as a replacement for the bottom of the foot. Most of the rope will be used.

3. Next course of action, three shots in the air, followed by another three shots, if DNR is around they will recognize the signal. I will howeve be continuing on. Climbing the mount. is a def. no, no., you have 7 miles to go.

If you ankle really hurts, take the tea bag and stick it in your mouth and keep it there. Tea is a natural pain reliever.

4. I have a lighter for fire, cup for water. If this is an actual trail then I would proceed on my way. He ll, I would proceed anyway, if you can't walk on a sprained ankle or a break without blood or bone sticking out, you should not be in the woods to begin with.

I, me, would make the top of the second hill, by nightfall. Stopping for water?? depends on how far off the main trail. It's 7 miles, 70 miles....I'm going for the water.

[crashdive123]

Here's my nickles worth.

1. The four things I should have done prior to the accident are: (1) Prior to the trip I would have notified somebody responible of my itinerary, including route and planned time for ending. This would include a time frame that I would be contacting them upon my exit. If I failed to contact them, they were to notify authorities. (2) My gear is lacking. I would have included a first aid kit, more water, signal mirror, whistle, light weight wind breaker or rain gear, fleece blanket, space blanket, large trash bag. Since I planned the route and had a map (or at least looked at it before I left) I probably would have had additional cordage or rope. (3) I probably should have not chosen a 45 degree grade for my trip down the hill, and obiously paid more attention to my surroundings. (4) I should have brought a hiking partner.

2. I don't know if the hiking boots are low, mid, or high tops so...I use the bandana to apply moderate pressure, being careful to not cut off circulation. If the area gets numb, I probably have it too tight. I also want to imobilize my ankle. To do this I use at least two sticks (probably four) to fashion a splint. Each piece will be about one foot in length and be attached to the outside of my hiking boot and secured with the paracord and my belt if needed (I have to assume that Beans was wrong and I am wearing clothing). While I am not on the move I will elevate my ankle.

3. After assessing my injuries and treating them I formulate a plan. In this case, since I cannot assume that rescue is on the way I climb the 35 meters up the hill retrieving any items that spilled from my bag, fashion a cane, or pair of crutches and follow the trail back out.

4. To enhance my chance of rescue, I will listen for any signs of manmade or human activity. If I hear any - fire three shots to signal (yes, yes in a safe direction). Continue to check for cell signal. If I have to stop, do so in the open if possible. If it is still light, start a fire and create heavy smoke with any wet or green foliage. If nightfall comes and I have not made it out, start three signal fires (diamond pattern). Any activity at night - in addition to firing three shots use the micro light to signal. Anything I can do to make myself as big as possible.

[wildography]

(Rather than read anyone else's answers to the questions, I went striaht to "post reply", that way, I'd be able to compare my answer to others and learn from my response)

Question 1: Name four (4) things you should have done prior to your accident. There will be more than 4 answers but name the 4 most important items you can think of.

1- make sure others know where you're heading; what time you expect to be back;
2- spent time learning preparation, survival skills, emergency planning, etc (in other words - be prepared);
3- stayed in reasonably decent shape and health by trying to stay fit and nutitionally healthy;
4- made a will, kissed your wife/kids/girlfriend goodbye & told them you love them - you never know what's going to happen anytime you step out "into the world" - so you should do this everyday), make sure preparations (insurance, religion, burial, etc) have been made in case you drop dead somewhere;

Question 2: Explain how you will treat your ankle injury. Describe what materials, if any, you will use.

- stay calm; lay back & take a deep breath(s); assess your position, situation, injuries before you start moving around - and maybe make things worse; move to a comfortable position, elevate your leg/foot, if possible; consider making a splint/brace/foot support using your bandanna and those limbs/branches that you banged your head on as you fell down hill;

- look for a "support stick" to use to take some of the weight off your injured foot;

- rest a few moments and further assess your situation, after you've cared for your ankle; decide on a course of action...;

Question 3: Describe your next course of action.

- using your "support stick", gather up any supplies that you may have lost (that you can find); test your ankle by walking west (towards your original direction of travel), rest as needed - elevating your ankle as you rest; assess your condition to see if you can walk out or require rescue;

- since water isn't that big of a deal, considering the temp, I'd forget about the water source;

- assumming you have decided that you CANNOT walk out...
- move south and east, toward the sloping area where there are fewer trees - and where you had lunch beside the muddy creek;
- as you move towards your lunch spot, and the sloping open area (with the good view) look for any useful trash, branches to dig for water in the muddy creek, etc... you find a pepsi can that some jerk threw away;

Question 4: Explain how you will enhance your chances of a rescue.

- you find a sheltered spot near your lunch site and prepare a place to spend the night - because it took you sp long to get there with your messed up ankle;
- you make a fire pit in the middle of the muddy creek so that you can throw logs/branches, etc there to make a signal fire in hopes that someone will see;
- you make another, smaller, fire pit near where you've arranged your shelter - using the branches/limbs, etc from the forested area that you are in;
- you decide to start the signal fire at sunset, since it will be most visible at that time... you arrange the logs/branches for the signal fire on a sloping wall of branches so that the fire will feed itself as the wood burns;
- you rest as needed and take your time... its Saturday, and you don't have to be back at work until Monday... and since you were scheduled to be back home at 5:30, you know that your wife/friend/girlfriend will start missing you at 6 pm... because you all were going out to dinner with other friends;

- you kick back and enjoy the sunset and relax as you await rescue... you've already spotted a place in the creek that should yield some water tomorrow morning... so you're good to go!

(having finished, David goes to look at everyone else's answers - after posting his)

[Beans]

C'mon, Guys! The best splint you'll get out there is the boot itself

Rick wrote
No assumptions can be made.

By the way he doesn't List any clothing so you are NAKED

Therefore we don't know what type of boots we have.

If we can assume that we have normal over the ankle hiking boots I agree with you, If we have low cut tennis/hiking type/style hiking shoes they off no ankle support

[Ken]

You snag your boot on a tree root and tumble about 35 meters down the side of the ridge landing face up.

Beans, I'm figuring it's a regular hiking boot. Not one of the type Rick usually wears, like this:

[Rick]

moccasins allow you to become one with the woods, Ken. That's why I wear them. That and the toe padding is pretty good.

[Ken]

moccasins allow you to become one with the woods, Ken. That's why I wear them. That and the toe padding is pretty good.

You're always watching from the shadows, aren't you?

[Rick]

Ken, I AM the shadows.

[Ken]

ken, I Am The Shadows.

The Dark Side! I Knew It! :saberbattle:

[Sarge47]

Okay, 1st off, I don't do fanny packs, they keep sliding up & down, chafing & causing blisters. 2nd, I NEVER go on ANY type of hike, especially a long one, without a partner; so we both have day-packs with lots of outside pouches, Military BDUs with lots of pockets, strong belts with lots of cool stuff hanging off of them. The Kel-Tec PF9 sounds like a 9mm POS, which I would never use, not enough stopping power, so I take a Colt 1911 .45 with 3 full clips of hollow-point ammo. Only one clip is asking for trouble.
Since we're hiking uphill over some rough ground we both have hiking poles which will help keep us from falling like a couple of Numptys. Both day-packs have 2 1-qt. Nalgene bottles with duct-tape wraps and para-cord loops. I've junked the Kershaw and am carrying my Buck Whitiker Lumina. The GI Canteen Cup is there, along with my ever-present Coleman Steel cup, & 1qt "billy-can" made from an old coffee can, along with a wire bail, I have 2 full MRE's in my pack, as does my partner, along with 8 tea-bags, 8 oz. of sugar, 4 oz. of hard candy. Inside one of our BDU cargo pockets is an Atwater-carry 1st-aid kit. Not only do we each carry a bandana in EACH BDU cargo pocket, but a third, neckerchief-style around our necks. In my pack is 2 "All-weather Sportsman's blankets", my lt. wt. military sleeping bag stuffed in it's compression sack and is smaller that a soccer ball. No esbit stove since we'll be near wooded areas and we'll use a campfire for both heat & cooking if the need arises. (got the permits...HA!)
I also have my Sweet-water water filter, Flint rod, mag-bar, Water-proofed matches in a water-proof safe, & the butane lighter. They are all stashed in different locations. We both carry 50' feet of parachute cord, and on my belt is my Victorinox Swiss champ, small Busnell Binoculars, Silva Ranger Compass, to go along with the TOPO-MAP in a water-proof map case that's stashed in an outside pouch on my pack. WE forgo the cell-phones, however we did follow Cody Lundin's book on making impressions of our boot-prints on the aluminum foil with our names on them, A map of the area with estimated times of arrival at certain check-points, & an itinerary & Estimated time we should be expected back left with the Ranger's office. I also carry a USMC poncho and "Bull", my Ka-bar Bulldozier. http://www.tomarskabars.com/1275_INFO.html (Never leave home without it.) Finally we both have a signaling mirror, whistle, 3 railroad flares, & a flare gun with 3 parachute flares apiece. The Rangers have been informed to glass the slopes every hour on the hour to look for a flare in case of trouble. I will keep the time with my Victorionox Swiss Army Wrist watch. I'm also wearing my wool outdoors-mans hat, my "Victorionox Swiss-Army Mountainerring Sunglasses", & my military Gore-tex parka w/ watch-cap. This way we AVOID the survival situation since we are sufficantly prepared.:cool2:


Camelbak Goblin butt pack with .8 L of water.
Kel-Tec PF9 weapon with 7 rounds of hollow point ammunition.
Kershaw lock blade folding knife in pocket
GI Canteen Cup
Esbit folding stove with 3 fuel tabs
3 Katadyn water purification tablets
1 butane lighter in pocket
1 mish metal flint rod
10 yards of paracord
1 micro light flashlight in pocket
Cell phone in pocket but no coverage in immediate area.
Compass in pocket
2 granola bars
1 chicken bouillon cube
2 small pieces of jerky
1 tea bag
1 bandana in your pocket

[doug1980]

Ok now 2 things....why was my post the only one that you questioned Rick? And where's your response, what would you do?

[Sarge47]

Forgot to list my Petzl XP headlamp & the hatband I've braided with parachute cord. Then there would also be the small digital camera for the pics I'd want to post on this forum, emergency fishing & snare kit.(very small.) Given what Doug has posted he'd probably be a good hiking partner, (how about it Doug?) Oh, & if you wrap duct-tape around the top of your boots you keep out pesky ticks & the like, plus you have no boot-laces on the outside of the duct-tape to catch on anything to make you fall.:cool2:

[Ultimate Survivor]

if you left for a walk of 12 miles over uninhabited country with no phone coverage and less than a litre of water then you should not be walking alone anyway!!
Strap ankle up with bandana find stick to use as crutch. go back the way you came as its familar ground, and you will be closer to vehicle if someone starts looking for you ? do not go off course, if you took a path then rescuers will as well, why the hell a weapon is important is beyond me ? spose you could use it as a crutch but it will become heavy ?
i would never go anywhere without my survival kit in a sealed pocket, to cover 5 miles on a crutch you are looking at about 4-5 hrs journey including stops sip water make it last. DO NOT UNSTRAP ANKLE!

[Rick]

Sorry, Sarge. You don't have any of that stuff. You only have what's listed above.

[Rick]

Doug - The only reason I asked the question about the ankle is because I thought it would be a common thing that everyone would focus on the sprain and ignore the possibility it might be broken.

I said I'll let it run for a couple of days then post my response.

I'm surprised more of our professional outdoor folks haven't chimed it.

[crashdive123]

For all that say that they wouldn't head off on a hike without carrying more "stuff" (neither would I) I think the point of scenarios like this is to get you to think. Rarely will bad things happen under ideal conditions. Sometimes people get complacent with their surroundings. Often times we will have to improvise. Ideally this accident wouldn't have happened, and if it did, it would be nice to have a sat phone or plb. What happens when you are flying and you can't carry all the gear you would normally carry? It's good sometimes to think about the what if.

[Rick]

And we are constantly saying the more you carry in your head the less you have to carry on your back.

[crashdive123]

I need to speed up the learning, my back's getting sore.

[Sarge47]

Sorry, Sarge. You don't have any of that stuff. You only have what's listed above.
...you're wrong, that's a "numpty move!" Nobody dictates what I'd take.:thumbdown::nono:

[Rick]

Then you don't get to play in my game. So nanny nanny boo boo.

[Sarge47]

No more Twinkies for you! Hey, if it ain't safe, I don't go...not this little gray puppy. Now if I coulda got a Winnebago up that trail.....:innocent::cool2:

[trax]

OK, since I've already assessed my ankle, I have my boot off. {I find it kind of hard to believe that that is my only injury after bouncing and bumping 35 meters down hill but I guess I'm tougher than I realized}

I'm going to get some sticks and make a splint with the bandana, I'm going to hopefully find a big azz stick I can use for a crutch, walk around long enough to get a big big pile of firewood, then I'm going to light a fire, keep the firewood within arm's reach to keep feeding it and stretch out and elevate the leg and wait.

[Ken]

And we are constantly saying the more you carry in your head the less you have to carry on your back.

What's your excuse? :innocent:

[Rick]

Hey, Mister! We ain't talkin' about me, here. I asked what YOU would do. Okay? Now keep movin'. There ain't nothin' to see here. Go on, move along.

[Sarge47]

So how come you forgot to put a 1st aid kit in that list? What's in my head is this: "BE PREPARED!!:smash::cool2:

[Sarge47]

What's your excuse? :innocent:You can't use that against Rick, he packs his Twinkie suit in there!:lol::lol::lol:

[doug1980]

So basically these scenarios are a waste of time. Unless, it were to be something like all your gear got stolen or lost, or you were in a plane crash and didn't have your gear. Rick I gave up on doing scenarios because this is the response you will get every time. Some either lack imagination or just will not humor you in your quest for opinions. "Be prepared" bottom line, that's the answer.

[crashdive123]

So basically these scenarios are a waste of time. Unless, it were to be something like all your gear got stolen or lost, or you were in a plane crash and didn't have your gear. Rick I gave up on doing scenarios because this is the response you will get every time. Some either lack imagination or just will not humor you in your quest for opinions. "Be prepared" bottom line, that's the answer.

I disagree. Not everybody that reads, or even participates in the scenario posts has the same skill sets or level of experience. One of the things that I really enjoy about this forum is that I can learn something new just about every day. Look how many views this thread has recieved - not all that read will post, but I'll bet that they learn something. Maybe somebody read this scenario and said to themselves that they had better take a first aid class, or make sure my gear is secure, or I need to pay mor attention to where I'm walking......so waste of time? Maybe for some, but I'll bet that more will benefit from them.

[Ken]

You can't use that against Rick, he packs his Twinkie suit in there!:lol::lol::lol:

Hey, Sarge! I think Rick packs Twinkies in a few places. See that pic he posted of himself standing in front of the Mt. St. Helen's Memorial? I think he be packin' alot of Twinkies wherever he goes! :munchies: :nono: :lol:

[Sarge47]

I disagree. Not everybody that reads, or even participates in the scenario posts has the same skill sets or level of experience. One of the things that I really enjoy about this forum is that I can learn something new just about every day. Look how many views this thread has received - not all that read will post, but I'll bet that they learn something. Maybe somebody read this scenario and said to themselves that they had better take a first aid class, or make sure my gear is secure, or I need to pay more attention to where I'm walking......so waste of time? Maybe for some, but I'll bet that more will benefit from them.Yeah, I'm in agreement with Crash; I mean how many, besides myself, noticed that Rick neglected to list a 1st aid kit; one of the 10 essentials? I'm from the Colin Fletcher (old) school of backpacking where he describes the pack as "your house on your back". Given that & the latest "pack-small-go-light gear on the market today I see no reason to down-size past a certain point.
I also carry "Bull" with me even on my yearly "morel hunts" into the near-by woods. So I guess I don't fit into the mode for this scenario, though others should get some use out of it. I did enjoy TRAX's comment about surviving the 35 meter fall with only a bad ankle though.:innocent::cool2:

[trax]

I did enjoy TRAX's comment :innocent::cool2:

We have a member named Trax?:lol:

[crashdive123]

Nah. Figment of your imagination.

[endurance]

I've been away for a day or two and just read this thread. Personally, I think it's a very good use of time. I'm not of the ilk to carry a lot of kit on day hikes. It's not uncommon for me to go out with a fanny pack only, sometimes a camelbak, and yes, on some occasions, just what is in my pockets on a day to day basis. While I know this can bite me in the ***, it's the reality to how I roll.

I'll save my "what else would you add/have" list for that thread.

First, yes, an itinerary with a responsible individual would be essential. My GF and one other friend have that responsibility and I've given them a list of various county S&R contact numbers, my emergency numbers, vehicle description, and instructions on what to do. In this case, I might just call the GF the morning of departure and let her know I'm going to be hiking in the X wilderness, leaving from Y trailhead, on Z trail, alone. I'd also tell her what clothing I was wearing and when I expect to return. Before leaving, I would check the weather forecast for the next 72 hours and call the local ranger station to ask about any issues in the area (dam releases, problem wildlife, etc.).

Regarding the ankle and also how I'll proceed from this point, it's Saturday. If I can get back to the trail, I dramatically increase my chances of getting found, so I'm going to elect to go up, not down, and regather my scattered kit along the way. Initially, I'm going to use what's available. While I know it defeats the purpose of the scenario to assume anything, I have to go with the equipment I'm familiar with. My MountainSmith fanny pack has a foam back pad that's about 6"x9", which I'll pull out and use to wrap the ankle with para-cord. Given the feedback provided earlier, I'm not going to walk anywhere, so I'll crawl up the hill picking up my belongings as I go until I get to the trail. While climbing, I'll be gathering bows for bedding and sticks for firewood, bundling with para-cord as I gather it.

Once at the trail, I'm going to build a shelter practically right on the trail. Nothing fancy, just enough to get me off the ground and shelter me from the wind. I'll build a fire and wait patiently. It's Saturday, Sunday morning S&R will be out. It's a weekend and I'm on the trail. This isn't anything but an uncomfortable night out. If I didn't leave an itinerary, then at 9am I'll fire 3 shots. At noon I'll fire three more. I'll use anything that I have that's shiny and try to flash some planes.

[Rick]

As promised, I've let the thread run for a couple of days so here's my response.

Question 1: Since each of these stands on their own merit, there is no correct order.

a.Notify someone of your intended plans, exact route and exact time of return. Determine what time SAR should be notified if they have not heard from you.
b.Always check the weather report before leaving for any excursion
c.Always carry a topographical map of the area you will be in
d.Always assume the worst and take more gear than you need. In this case a tent, additional food, rain gear and additional clothing might have been appropriate for a mid spring climate
e.Multiple ways to signal for help. In this case, a whistle and signal mirror should have been added. Perhaps a two way radio would have been appropriate.
f.A walking stick in hilly terrain offers a third leg and can be very beneficial when walking down hill.
g.Pay attention to what you are doing. You should have zipped the pack before attempting to descend.

Question 2:

a.Do not attempt to remove the boot but you can loosen the boot strings to better assess the injury. After a visual examination of the ankle retie your boot snubly but comfortably. Do not tie the boot tightly against the ankle. While tying the boot tightly may provide some additional support it could also restrict swelling, which, in turn, could restrict both the circulatory and lymphatic systems of the foot. You will need to immobilize the ankle by using a splint. There are a couple of ways you can do this given the materials at hand.
1.Using sturdy limbs approximately two inches in diameter, cut two long enough to extend from the bottom of the foot to about mid-calf. Place one on the inside of the leg and one on the outside. Using the paracord, tie the tree limbs in place ensuring the ankle cannot be moved.
2.Another method of splinting is to wrap the ankle. Use a figure-of-eight pattern: under the foot, over the top of the foot, around the back of the ankle, back over the top of the foot, under the foot, and so on. Multiple wraps of paracord can be used to keep the ankle from moving. Keep the paracord snug enough to prevent movement but loose enough to allow blood flow. Check the ankle periodically and adjust as needed to accommodate swelling. The bandana, your torn shirt or pants could be used in lieu of or in addition to the paracord for wrapping the ankle.
b.Keep the ankle elevated as long as possible to reduce swelling.

Question 3:

Your next course of action should be to do nothing. At least until you have assessed what materials you have available and developed a plan of action. Assess what options you have and then choose what appears to be the best one available. Here is the situation. It is around 1:30 p.m. so you have several hours of daylight left. It’s Saturday, you’ve told no one about your plans so it’s likely no one will look for you until Monday when you don’t show up for work. Even then, no one is going to know where you are so it may be another day or two before someone locates and/or reports your truck. Still, your rescuers have no idea which direction you’ve traveled. Since you are five miles from the truck it’s impossible for any sound to reach you or them. That means it’s very likely another day may pass before you are found. Realistically, you may be looking at Wednesday before you are located. That’s four nights and four days. That time would be shortened, however, if you have a significant other that would normally expect you home by evening.

Forget the lost items. They are gone. The amount of energy you would expend and the daylight you would lose searching for them do not warrant the effort.

Next considered your priorities. In this case, they would be water, fire and, to the extent possible, shelter.

[Rick]

Question 4: Explain how you will enhance your chances of a rescue.

Your first priority is to stay alive. Remember the rule of 3s. You can only live
3 hours without shelter/fire
3 days without water
3 weeks without food.

The water source is 1.5 miles away but the creek is muddy. So water is probably available. You will have to dig a hole and allow water to seep into it but at this point that may be your better choice. At least it’s worth a try before attempting to move 1.5 miles on what might be a broken ankle. It would probably cost you the available daylight just move that far. You can soak up the water with your bandana (if it wasn’t used for wrapping your ankle) or dip your canteen cup into the water if enough seeps into the hole. If your bandana was used to dress your ankle then you can use your shirt to soak up water if needed. Wring the water out of the cloth into the cup.

Since this is a deciduous forest, there should be enough available brush and limbs on the ground to collect for a fire. But your injured ankle is going to make this a slow and painful process. Since the trees in this forest average 60 years old it’s likely there will be one or more downed trees. Try to find one close the creek. It can be both a source of firewood and a base for a debris shelter.

Two things to keep in mind. Colder air is going to be located at the base of the ravine so the nights may be colder here than up the side of the ridge. But attempting to move back and forth that distance is going to be painful and consume your energy so staying put is probably the better option. At least for tonight. Just try to build a debris hut and gather enough wood in the vicinity to keep a fire going all night. The second thing to consider is the fact that you did not check the weather report. A thunderstorm overnight could put you in harm’s way of a flash flood. Be certain to look over the area and try to ascertain if any high water marks are visible. If so, try to build your camp above those marks in case of a flash flood.

You may be tempted trying to make the top of the ridge but there are three things to consider. The slope is 45 degrees. Attempting that on three limbs will be difficult at best. Once you reach the top, there is no water available. And finally, reaching the top of the ridge might expend the remaining daylight or enough of it to prevent you from adequately preparing for the night. So, at least for tonight, staying put may be the better choice.

You have two ready means of fire. The Esbit fire tab and the powder in your 9mm ammunition. Both can be ignited with the butaine lighter. Use your knife to scrape powder from the Esbit fuel tablet. Use the scrapings as a fire starter. Using this method should give you the ability to start several fires even if it starts raining.

Use your canteen cup to boil water over the fire.

You can last three weeks without food so don’t waste energy trying to find any. It isn’t necessary at this point. Your only goals are staying hydrated and warm. And don’t forget the psychological lift the fire will provide.

Use the tea bag to indulge yourself in a cup of tea. Anything that makes you feel better and gives you a lift should be taken advantage of. But remember to store the tea bag once you have used it. It can be used several more times.

Depending on the available resources and threats, you may or may not have to move your camp on day two. But you would only move 1). As your injury permits 2) To reduce or eliminate any threat such as flash flooding or 3) If your resources are sparse enough to impact survival. Here is where your topographical map is essential. You may know the area very well but your usual routes may not be an option. Use the topo map to devise the best route back to your truck or to the nearest place of help.

Remember that three of anything is the international distress signal. Three shots, three fires, three shouts. Green plants placed on a hot fire can make a nice smoky fire to attract attention. You will need to concentrate on gathering water, firewood and adding to your shelter if your injury is severe enough to stay put. Conserve the rest of your resources, the flashlight for example, by using them sparingly and use the lighter only as necessary. Depending on the make and model of cell phone, it can also be used as a source of light. Remember too, if the lighter runs out of butane, it can still be used as a sparker.

There are a number of variables in this scenario and you will need to choose the right one for you. Most people under estimate how far one mile (1.6 kilometers) is. Trying to crawl that distance is going to create additional injuries to the knees and trying to walk on an ankle that is broken could convert it from a simple fracture to a compound fracture as bones poke through the skin. Or sharp bone fragments could damage nerves or arteries.

A sprain occurs when the ligament is stretched too far, and is either partially or completely torn. Most sprains occur to the outside of the ankle and to one or all three of the ligaments located there. Pain will be evident on the outside of the ankle with little or no pain on the inside. If pain is present only on the inside of the ankle then it’s possible the deltoid has been stretched or torn. The typical treatment for an ankle sprain can be remembered by the acronym RICE; Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevate. Obviously, not all of these treatments will be available in the woods.

On the other hand, staying put for four days and nights is also going to be an agonizing ordeal. All of these considerations must be taken into account before deciding the best course of action for you.

Finally, there are no right or wrong answers only better and worse actions or decisions. Each individual has a set of skills and experience that will affect their decision making and their actions. In addition, pain thresholds are also individual specific. While one person may choose to suck it up and walk out the next person may be experiencing some stage of shock or pain that would allow only minimal movement.

This exercise was designed to remind you that many accidents can be avoided and/or planned for and to show those new to wilderness outings how to avoid some simple pitfalls. By letting someone know where we are going, our exact route and precisely when we will return, we can turn a rescue of days into hours. Always plan for a worst case scenario and pack accordingly. Even a one day outing can turn into a life threatening situation. Finally, the more outdoor knowledge you have the better equipped you will be to convert natural resources into useable tools for your survival.

[Ken]

One observation: Under the conditions you posted, most fires may not even be visable (yeah, I know that you said I was at the highest point in the area) from a distance unless it's dark out and the fire is large enough. During the day, many people may simply think that they're looking at smoke from a campfire. Since the accident happened around noon, do you think this device would have helped? I carry 3 in my pack. We always had some on the boat as well.

http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/orion-smoke-signal.html

[Rick]

Sure. There are a lot of things that would have helped. But in lieu of other options, smoke might draw the attention of a passing light aircraft, forest personnel or anyone else. Use what ever is available to your advantage.

[Sarge47]

One observation: Under the conditions you posted, most fires may not even be visable (yeah, I know that you said I was at the highest point in the area) from a distance unless it's dark out and the fire is large enough. During the day, many people may simply think that they're looking at smoke from a campfire. Since the accident happened around noon, do you think this device would have helped? I carry 3 in my pack. We always had some on the boat as well.

http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/orion-smoke-signal.htmlYou can buy these at Wal-Mart back in their "Marine supplies section" quite a bit cheaper. $12 for a pack of 3 if memory serves me. I carry 3 in my pack. Be sure & check the expiration date on the pkg. They also carry flare guns & flares, or you can go to a big "Marina Supplies Dealer.":cool2:

[Ken]

You can buy these at Wal-Mart back in their "Marine supplies section" quite a bit cheaper. $12 for a pack of 3 if memory serves me. I carry 3 in my pack. Be sure & check the expiration date on the pkg. They also carry flare guns & flares, or you can go to a big "Marina Supplies Dealer.":cool2:

Right, Sarge. I get mine at U.S.A. Marine. Under $15.00 for three. I just posted the pic for reference.

[endurance]

I've tried to use orange smoke on two occasions and in both cases they failed to ignite properly. I don't have a lot of faith in them. Some brands may be better than others.

[Ultimate Survivor]

Trying to dictae a survival situation is a mute point anyway as most people will not realise thier danger untill its to late ?,
there are to many what ifs ? and variables nice try though i have seen this on many forums
pages and pages of arguements with no real conclusion.
to your situation my personal kit that i carry with me everywhere would have got me home :cool2:

[Rick]

We'd all like to believe that our kits would get us home. But, as you point out, it sort of depends on the circumstances doesn't it? Being able to turn natural products into useful tools might just trump anything we have in our kits.

[crashdive123]

Trying to dictae a survival situation is a mute point anyway as most people will not realise thier danger untill its to late ?,
there are to many what ifs ? and variables nice try though i have seen this on many forums
pages and pages of arguements with no real conclusion.
to your situation my personal kit that i carry with me everywhere would have got me home :cool2:

I tend to disagree that discussing scenarios is a moot point. Not everybody comes to this forum comes with the same skill set or experience. Being able to think, plan, train and practice will greatly enhance an individual's chances of a better outcome should events not go perfectly. As far as discussions that go back and forth - there may be gems or tidbits of information that can be removed to help somebody get through a rough spot.

[wildography]

Trying to dictae a survival situation is a mute point anyway as most people will not realise thier danger untill its to late ?,
there are to many what ifs ? and variables nice try though i have seen this on many forums
pages and pages of arguements with no real conclusion.
to your situation my personal kit that i carry with me everywhere would have got me home :cool2:

Hmmm... perhaps your right; its useless to try and learn anything about survival; its also useless to discuss survival topics... I mean, after all, its just pages and pages of "arguements with no real conclusion". It would probably be better to sit on the couch and watch the ultimate survivor, Bear Grylls. You can learn a lot that way...

excuse me while I go puke...

[trax]

...there are to many what ifs ? and variables nice try though i have seen this on many forums pages and pages of arguements with no real conclusion....

Were they, by any chance, survival or wilderness related forums? Imagine!

[endurance]

I tend to disagree that discussing scenarios is a moot point. Not everybody comes to this forum comes with the same skill set or experience. Being able to think, plan, train and practice will greatly enhance an individual's chances of a better outcome should events on go perfectly. As far as discussions that go back and forth - there may be gems or tidbits of information that can be removed to help somebody get through a rough spot.
I found the exercise well set up and we're all going to see things a little different. Sure, some of that is the difference between perceiving a 45 degree hill as unclimbable and others don't see a problem with it or thinking getting back to the trail is important vs. local knowledge that no one uses it, so we approach the scenario differently. However, there's also valuable outcomes, like thinking through priorities, coming up with creative uses for the materials at hand, and sharing ideas that might save someone's butt someday.

I already PM'd Nativedude regarding a post he put up a few weeks ago, but it one of those posts that I completely disagreed with when I first read it. I even called him out on it. Days later I was still thinking about it because I couldn't resolve it in my head, then I came to the conclusion that one of my premises was fatally flawed. I went out and made a significant purchase, resigning that he really had the right idea and my thinking was off.

That's what forums are all about. I've been dropping out of another forum because the moderator hates conflict and has booted members he viewed as disruptive. We're not talking about someone who was a serious pain in the arse, we're talking about someone who called people out on their crap and didn't hold any bones about it. Once he was kicked out, no one was willing to call a novice member out for having their facts wrong and now the BS is a mile deep.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... this place rocks!

[Beans]

It would probably be better to sit on the couch and watch the ultimate survivor, Bear Grylls. You can learn a lot that way...

DO WHAT??????????

Surly you jest!

[Rick]

I've been dropping out of another forum because the moderator hates conflict and has booted members he viewed as disruptive.

It's always a fine line you walk as a moderator. There will always be someone that thinks you waited too long and someone who thinks you acted too quickly. Healthy debate is great as long as no one starts name calling or arguing. Neither of those is productive. And there are often other resolutions than banning. That should be the last available fix.

When these scenarios first stated being posted I was also a bit skeptical. I didn't participate in the first few because I didn't see the value. Then, like you, I told myself to put away my paradigms and look at them with an open mind. I started to see some thoughts and ideas that I valued. You'll never find a scenario that everyone can agree on because there ARE so many variables. But it does give you the opportunity to roll the situation over in your mind and does make you stop and think about it and, really, that's what it's all about. I think it's also a great tool for those that are new to wilderness survival. It let's them visualize the situation and listen to the comments from more seasoned individuals.

[rebel]

First of all, I'd like to say this scenario is one of the best I've seen. It's well thought out. I like the sat image too. Rick, thanks for taking the time to put this together.
-----
1. (1) Leave a detailed itinerary with someone. (2) Bring a partner. (3) Use a walking stick. (4) Bring a med kit.
2. Leave the boot on. Immobilize the ankle with a splint and fabric from my clothing. Make a crutch.
3. Though it's 2 miles further to continue on the intended trail I would because I'm halfway down the hill and from the image the trail then follows the base of the hill so, easier hiking. Also there are trees on that side for shelter, fire and food.
4. Mark my trail. Make smokey fires when I make a fire. Polish the bottom of the cup for a signal mirror.

[KhonHd]

Question 4: Explain how you will enhance your chances of a rescue.

Your first priority is to stay alive. Remember the rule of 3s. You can only live
3 hours without shelter/fire
3 days without water
3 weeks without food.


Can someone explain the "3 hours without shelter/fire"? Is this assuming your soaking wet or buck naked and need to keep you body temperate up to avoid hypothermia? We all go out for more than three hours without shelter or fire, unless clothing is considered shelter.

Thanks,

Chris

[Rick]

Chris - You are on the money. Not the buck nekkid part but the saying is designed to help you keep your priorities straight. Hypothermia can set in very quickly in a lot of scenarios so the 3 hour rule just helps you understand that, if you are in that environment, shelter/fire is a lot more important than food.

That's not to say those priorities will always be in that order. Summertime in Texas might be a good example. Water might be your most important priority.

I left off 3 minutes without air in the above simply because it did not pertain to the situation.

[BENESSE]

I sprained my ankle on Sunday, (same one, 2nd time in 8yrs) went to the orthopedic surgeon yesterday to make sure it wasn't not more serious (it's not) and here I am, ticked off beyond words that it's happened one week before our final ski trip of the season to Utah. (booked & paid for)
We are going, and I will be skiing if it kills me!

So I'm sitting here w/iced & elevated foot, running a film through my head about what if this happened out there, what if I was alone, etc, etc.
Wanted to start a thread but thought...I'll bet there's something here already...and voila!, the best thread ever. Good read!
It made me take notes on some additional stuff to consider getting for the BOB (thi$ i$ never-ending, is it?) but the biggest being some kind of a 2-way, radio that I could strap to my body and never loose. (now I have to research what kind to get--more money, more stuff but worth it, I think)

To me the bottom line is: if you could contact someone and let them know where you are, you could save yourself a lot of grief and potentially your life. This is of course in addition to everything else, not instead.

Thanks Rick!

[finallyME]

I sprained my ankle on Sunday, (same one, 2nd time in 8yrs) went to the orthopedic surgeon yesterday to make sure it wasn't not more serious (it's not) and here I am, ticked off beyond words that it's happened one week before our final ski trip of the season to Utah. (booked & paid for)
We are going, and I will be skiing if it kills me!




Where are you going, and what day? I am trying to go this weekend, but we will see.

[BENESSE]

Where are you going, and what day? I am trying to go this weekend, but we will see.

Leaving Sat. for Solitude. Always a good gamble for snow. That's why we stopped going to Colorado this time of the year.

[finallyME]

I am going to Sundance. I have never been to Solitude, but have been to Brighton, which is a little further up the canyon. I snowboard, so Brighton is better for that. Anyways, we have had a low snow year, but there should be enough for you. A storm moved in this last weekend and dumped a bunch.

[preachtheWORD]

Question 1: Name four (4) things you should have done prior to your accident. There will be more than 4 answers but name the 4 most important items you can think of.


1. Should have taken more water in the first place. Last time I hiked twelve miles I drank well over 2 liters and still got dehydrated. Might not have been distracted by the need for water and gotten injured.
2. Like most people have said, should have let someone know the exact route your are taking, and established a firm time of return. "Back before dark" is a pretty vague timeline.
3. Should have worn some better boots with a very high ankle laced up good and tight. Ankle injuries are common enough in rough terrain (or any terrain, really) that this should be a basic preparation. Carrying athletic tape with you would be a VERY good idea to treat or prevent such an injury.
4. Should have taken some kind of signaling device - a whistle, flare, mirror, blaze orange clothes, something.


Question 2: Explain how you will treat your ankle injury. Describe what materials, if any, you will use.


That ankle will have to be immobilized somehow. My first thought was to wrap it up tight with a strip torn from your clothing, but fresh ankle injuries can't be wrapped too tight. You will have to wrap it loosely with something. You could contrive a splint with stout green sticks (1 1/2" diameter) and the paracord. You will have to have a good walking stick. If you could find a conveniently forked branch, you could pad it with an article of clothing and use it as a crutch.


Question 3: Describe your next course of action.


First thing I would do is work my way down to the river and get some water, treating it with the purification tabs. Don't bother trying to climb up that hill to the planned water source. Treated river water will have to be good enough. Then I would follow the river as far as I could before dark. The injury will make this slow going, but the more level land near the river would be better than trying to traverse the hillside. If I couldn't get out by close to dark, I would settle in and build a fire, and wait for morning. Be sure to elevate that ankle during the night.


Question 4: Explain how you will enhance your chances of a rescue.


Frankly, a quick rescue seems unlikely in this situation. You are probably going to have to rely on yourself to get you out. After all, you are injured, but not lost. You know where you are and you know the way out. I would only sit and wait for rescue in this situation if the ankle was so bad that I could not travel at all. If that was the case, you might build some signal fires.

The guy in question shouldn't have been in this situation in the first place. He took time to pack what I would call "fancy" supplies, but didn't bother to make some of the most basic preparations to ensure his safety.

[BENESSE]

I am going to Sundance. I have never been to Solitude, but have been to Brighton, which is a little further up the canyon. I snowboard, so Brighton is better for that. Anyways, we have had a low snow year, but there should be enough for you. A storm moved in this last weekend and dumped a bunch.

Also love Alta and go there often. (no snowboarders) Never been to Sundance.
We find that once we like the place we stick with it forever.
As far as I'm concerned, you can't beat Utah for snow.