View Full Version : What should I tell her to do?
marylp
03-12-2009, 02:09 PM
O.K. So, the other day me and my daughter came home from town to find a huge rattlesnake on the steps of my front porch with what looked like a frog halfway sticking out of it's mouth. We ran back into the car and I called Parks and Wildlife. We stayed in the vehicle till they took care of the problem. They leave, we go inside the house. Then I get to thinking.... What if the poop had hit the fan and nobody was going to come to help us. What if I would get bit? With whatever I have at home. What do I have around the house that I could her to do for me. She is 12 yrs old. I suppose if it happened in my arm or leg I could probably attempt to suck the venom out like you see in the movies. My worry is what kind:crying: of instructions can I give this young girl so she doesnt have to watch me die. Remember the poop has hit, it would be dangerous to let her drive, beside there probably would not be any medical care. What should I tell her to do.
crashdive123
03-12-2009, 02:41 PM
Mary - in the situation that you describe I would:
Stay calm (yeah right) At least don't move around for about an hour. This will give the venom time to spread out and weaken.
Keep the bite area as still as possible. Splint it if you can.
If you have a snakebite kit use the suction device (you have to do this within a few minutes of the bite, or it will do not good - may not really do any good anyway). Do not cut the area or use your mouth to suck out venom (only works in the movies) as you will put a lot of bacteria in the wound.
Do not elevate the bite area - keep it lower than the heart.
Do not tie a torniquet - but do tie a restricting band between the bite and heart - loosen it every 15 minutes. To tell if it is too tight, you should be able to feel a pulse on the "down" side of the restriction.
Clean the bite.
Do not ice (doesn't do anything)
Take of any tight fitting jewelry or clothing near the bite (swelling)
Keep in mind some snakes are more venomous than others - seek medical help (I know you said none would probably be available)
Obviously the best thing is avoidance. If you have poisonous snakes in your area, learn about them (with you daughter) and how to avoid them.
In this specific case, avoidance would have been the right thing. After dinner the snake would have moved on.
I can't imagine how horrible things would have to be for there to be no medical capability. Even during Katrina hospitals tried to carry on. Even if they are vastly overloaded they perform triage to determine the most injured and (honestly) those they can't help. Pearl Harbor, 9/11, the last California earthquake and the last several Midwest tornados are all pretty darn good examples of SHTF and, thankfully, very dedicated medical folks and first responders stood their watch with little fanfare and often little thanks. But if it happened, I'd either drive myself to the nearest medical facility, if possible, or have the daughter do it. You'd be surprised how resourceful a 12 year can be with a little encouragement and guidance.
endurance
03-12-2009, 02:54 PM
I agree with Crash on the course of treatment. Also, be reassured that snake handlers (people who handle venomous snakes as part of their religious practice) get bit from time to time and elect not to get any treatment and fewer than 1 in 4 die. They're primarily handling rattlesnakes. While there will be a great deal of local tissue damage and you may or may not regain full use of the affected limb, you will more than likely survive.
I'm not a believer that there will be a total collapse of our medical system. While it's likely in the future you wouldn't be able to get the level of advanced treatment available today, basic care is likely to continue in even the worst of times. While you may not be able to get anti-venom treatments that would minimize damage, less advanced secondary treatment like antibiotics and wound care would dramatically increase your chances of a full recovery.
I watch a report the other night that was very much along these lines. A handler in Florida was bitten by a black mamba. Unfortunately, it was September 11, 2001 and the US airspace had been shut down. There was not enough specific anti venom in Florida to save the man and the only place that had any was in Nevada. A LOT of phones calls were made and the only plane allowed to fly during that time was a single engine flight from Nevada to Florida carrying the anti-venom. The FAA allowed the flight. The guy lived. So even in the worst of times good things still happen.
chiye tanka
03-12-2009, 05:56 PM
Mary, what part of the country do you live in? I ask this because I have a bit of experince with venomous snakes, and can tell you what you've got and how deadly the venom.
Aside from that, go with what crash said, he's right on.
wildography
03-12-2009, 06:20 PM
all good advice above... I know that my answer isn't really part of your question... but, personally, I would have stayed with her to watch the "show" of the snake swallowing the frog... making certain, of course, that you were both far enough away so that you wouldn't scare it off before the Parks & Wildlife guys got there... I'm "assuming" that they captured it alive to release in a location away from humans.
Watching the snake, from a distance would have been a good opportunity to educate daughter about snakes, etc. It would also have been a good way to help her not be afraid of snakes. I actually don't mind rattlesnakes... all the ones that I've encountered in the wild have either warned me that they were around, or tried to "run" away...
Water Moccasin, or Cottonmouths, on the other hand... I would have used that as an object lesson in that ALL - all without exception - water moccasins should be killed, and failure to do so results in a jail sentence....
... ummm... can you tell that I really don't like water moccasins?
:m107:water moccassins:smash: :jango:water moccasins:whip:
:gun_bandana:water moccasins:smash:
chiangmaimav
03-12-2009, 07:03 PM
On the mountain rescue team, I had training recently about snake bite procedure and what Crashdive said to do is exactly the same as I was told. I was almost bitten by a krait a couple of weeks ago and there are also king cobras in the area, so venomous snakes are a problem here also. One thing about rattlesnakes, I am told, is their venom is a hemotoxin which affects blood as opposed to neurotoxin, and the pressure bandage is more efffective against hemotoxins. Or so I have been told here. Also, in the past here people tell me there was really no treatment for snake bite except to apply th tourniquet and try to heep the victim still and calm, and many people survived even king cobra bites. However, there must be some emergency response people around where you live, and I am sure they carry anti venom in snake country. Be sure to buy a snake bite kit. As for your daughter, I think it is not a bad thing for her to have some fear of snakes. Here people live with snakes all over the place but they have a healthy respect for their capabilities. Jungle people here have a fear of poisonous snakes, but they still know how to deal with them. Actually, if you tell them you have one in your house, they are happier than hell and think it great fun to kill it for you and then they eat it.
marylp
03-12-2009, 08:13 PM
Hey Everyone! Thanks for the wonderful advice. Crash, I have already saved evrything you said, as usual your guidance is awesome.
Chiye Tanke, We are very south in Texas close the the Rio Grande Valley. Our neighboring town braggs about having the yearly rattlesnake round up. People get paid lots of money for every snake they bring in. You can get married in the snake pit, eat one, wear one, get your picture taken of what ever. These people are crazy, this festival goes on for 2 or 3 days. I dont even know if anyone ever bothers to teach these people about what to do in case they are biten, but you can always show off you new boots made from the rattlesnake you caught yourself.
dolfan87
03-12-2009, 09:56 PM
Can you get bit by a snake when it has a frog half way in it's mouth?
Yes, you can but it's very bad manners on the part of the snake. Never bite with your mouth full!
Amazon
03-13-2009, 12:38 PM
Sweetwater, TX has a Rattlesnake Roundup every year. It's almost a carnival type
affair. We went once and that's all it took for me. brrrrrr...give me goose bumps.
I'm not a coward but have a very healthy respect for snakes.
Sarge47
03-13-2009, 01:00 PM
Crash is 100% correct on NOT sucking out the poison, also if you have any kind of open sore inside you're mouth,or you accidently swallow...well, you get the picture. I like keeping a long-handled broom within reach to GENTLY move the snake out of the way, but only as a last resort. Also a heavy blanket thrown over it might help confuse it momentarily. Finally, a .410 shotgun will usually do the trick if needed. I would also look into some serious medical training for both you & your daughter...it can't hurt; then learn how to give an injection of 'anti-venom" & stock up!:cool2:
crashdive123
03-13-2009, 03:24 PM
A couple of things on antivenin (really - it's antivenin) I'm not sure how available it is for civilian storage. Is there/are there more than one type depending on the type of snake? Cost is pretty high. Must be refrigerated - and with that has a shelf life.
Aurelius95
03-13-2009, 07:37 PM
There was a guy at the Atlanta Zoo who was bitten by the black mamba they kept there. He was a snake keeper. It was on Thanksgiving Day or thereabouts, back in 2002 or so. It was interesting, because after he was bitten, he grabbed a video camera and recorded what he was going through for research. He was taken to Grady Hospital, and the only antivenin they had was expired. However, they gave him what they had, and he did live. It was touch and go for a while, but he recorded the entire process. Talk about staying calm!
You challenged me? Me? I can't believe it. I'm, I'm, flabbergasted. Pea shooters at sundown, sir! I shall have my second slap your second.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antivenom
crashdive123
03-13-2009, 09:23 PM
Antivenom (or antivenin or antivenene) ..... wasn't really challenging anybody, but the thought of seconds getting slapped...now that has possibilities. OK my second is...hmmm....use your imagination.
Jericho117
03-13-2009, 09:34 PM
Only thing I have basically forced myself to do "if" I were to be bitten by a poisonous snake would be to squeeze as much of the venom from the wound as I can, then use a belt or strip of cloth to tie above the wound (Most likely will get bitten on arms or legs). This is to constrict your limb and slow down blood flow to that area, giving you extra time before the poison courses through your blood stream completely, affecting areas in your body. The only snake around here (or used to) be worried about is the Copperhead. Im sure thier venom affects respiration more so than heart function. Staying calm would be hard, like Crashdive stated, but im assuming it is important becuase adrenaline is flowing and the heart is pumping faster, which means the venom is coarsing threw your veins faster. I would probablly control my breathing, and If I could get to medical help I would walk at a slow pace. I have heard of a man who was bitten by a Rattlesnake, and remained alive for over 3 days.
endurance
03-13-2009, 11:29 PM
From this article (http://www.sonomanews.com/articles/2007/06/14/news/doc466dedbe098f9054513053.txt), storing your own anti-venin doesn't sound like much of an option.
Antivenin had to be flown in last summer, when an 8-year-old girl was bitten on the foot. The bite punctured a vein, sending a potentially lethal dose of venom directly into the blood stream. In total, it required more than 30 bottles of antivenin to treat the girl who, despite being quite ill, made a full recovery.
Several animals have also been bitten this year, which can require costly treatment. A vial of antivenin for dogs costs between $600 and $700, and many animals require multiple doses.
At $600+ a vial for the dog stuff and multiple vials needed, unless you're dripping in surplus cash, I don't think most folks could afford it.
One interesting thing I did find from the article is that there's a vaccine for your dog. Very cool! Definitely something worth asking about if you live in snake country and have pets.
Sarge47
03-14-2009, 12:24 AM
I didn't realize the cost of Anti....whatever. However, any type of medical training is a good thing. 1st aid, CPR, EMT, and so on. I've always felt that medical training has the greater probability to be used more than anything else connected with Survival, & that includes your knife.:triage::nurse:
I don't think most people realize how damaging a snake bite can be. We think of dying but the more common thing is a severely affected limb. I worked with a gal who's husband raised snakes for sale. He had been bitten on the thigh by a rattlesnake. He lived but he had a huge area on his thigh where the muscle had been dissolved. A very nasty scar and a very weak leg because of the muscle loss.
chiye tanka
03-17-2009, 09:14 AM
The biggest worry you've got in that area is Crotalus atrox, or the western diamondback. It's venom is hemotoxic and will destroy blood and muscle tissue. Antivenin (crash is right again, god I hate that) is the best treatment, however, if you're allergic to bee stings the antivenin could have adverse effects. Also after using the antivenin, you could devlope these allergies. Bottom line, after use, a bee sting could be fatal.
Ten years ago, a friend was preparing for a reptile show here in FL. She was bitten by a 2 foot western diamondback. She died 2 times, had 3 blood transfusions, and 96 vials of antivenin. She displayed symptoms never observed before and almost lost her thumb.
Just a little food for thought.
Rest comfortably, Chiye Tanka, antivenin is the archaric pronunciation. Those of us that are more modern (and, yes, a bit more sophisticated) use the term anti-venom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antivenom
Oh, gosh. Where are my manners? You're welcome.:cool:
crashdive123
03-17-2009, 12:19 PM
I guess I'm guilty - I've never been accused of being sophisticated.
http://otisframpton.typepad.com/otisframpton/images/ogre.jpg
Now let me find something to smash.
bulrush
03-17-2009, 12:27 PM
How aggressive are rattlesnakes? Does aggressiveness vary by region or species? I know there are several species of rattlesnakes. I mean, how quick are they to bite? Will they try to run away first, or rattle (warn) first, then bite?
I deal with garters and the occasional water snake here in MI. Both will run away from you if they can. The bigger they are, the faster they move so it's a real trick to catch the big ones before they get away.
Garters will give warning bites, not really sinking their teeth into your skin, more like scratching it. But once I catch them they stop biting and are quite docile if you have a firm grip on them. They also have another defense: pooping on you. Oh, it's nasty nasty nasty. The smell stays for hours even after you wash.
Haven't caught northern water snake yet, they are big and FAST. They have big fangs but I don't think they are venomous (see my thread I posted today in this forum.) I hope to find out if they give a warning bite or a "full" bite.
Norse&Native
03-17-2009, 01:03 PM
O.K. So, the other day me and my daughter came home from town to find a huge rattlesnake on the steps of my front porch with what looked like a frog halfway sticking out of it's mouth. We ran back into the car and I called Parks and Wildlife. We stayed in the vehicle till they took care of the problem. They leave, we go inside the house. Then I get to thinking.... What if the poop had hit the fan and nobody was going to come to help us. What if I would get bit? With whatever I have at home. What do I have around the house that I could her to do for me. She is 12 yrs old. I suppose if it happened in my arm or leg I could probably attempt to suck the venom out like you see in the movies. My worry is what kind:crying: of instructions can I give this young girl so she doesnt have to watch me die. Remember the poop has hit, it would be dangerous to let her drive, beside there probably would not be any medical care. What should I tell her to do.
It's not advisable to suck the venom from a snake bite. You should never attempt that. Mucous membranes such as your mouth, nose, eyes, vagina, etc. have far more capillaries and small vessels close to the surface in high concentration, and putting venom or any other poison on a mucous membrane (like in your mouth) guarantees the absorption of the poison much faster and in much higher volume than from a regular snake bite.
Maybe ask your daughter what she thinks she should do if something ever happens to you and nobody comes to help. It will open dialog and you can share your ideas for preparing for such an emergency.
For more information on how to properly treat a venomous snake bite, check out the Army's "Jungle Operations" field manual. I've attached an image which gives illustrated information on how to care for a snakebite.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/90-5/img015.gif
Where can I find anti-venom for Super Moderator bites?
Where can I find anti-venom for Super Moderator bites?
The doctor said "you're gonna die....."
I remember that joke. I just don't remember the whole thing. Where was that guy bitten? :innocent:
Sourdough
03-17-2009, 01:37 PM
I remember that joke. I just don't remember the whole thing. Where was that guy bitten? :innocent:
His skinny, highly polished, fishing pole.........:smash::smash::smash:
:confused1::whistling::noway::ohmy::blush::clap:
It's always good to check and see just how large the fangs are. You can also look down their throat to see when they last fed, another indication how quickly they might bite. Often, both checks can be done at once.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vYUv1zQs8jQ/RzXEwjQSn1I/AAAAAAAACd4/WflHsmQqhBI/s400/snake_bite.jpg
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