Avoiding Survival!

[Sarge47]

I think that there are those among us who actually look forward to going through a "Survival" situation. Just like the ones who just can't wait for TEOTWAWKI to hit us! To those of you who think that "Surviving stuff" is cool let me say this:

1st, you "Survive Stuff" every day, you just don't know it! If you didn't get into a bad situation, you survived the day. I know, it's not as "cool" as you might like to think, but that's the way it is.

2nd, the old saying "An ounce of prevention is better thatn a pound of cure". For example, ask yourself this: Would rather avoid getting bitten by a rabid dog or have to take the "Rabies Shot Series" because you got bit by one? Either way you survive, which, in your opinion, is better? You want to survive by "avoiding" getting into a survival situation in the 1st place, not have to go through one.

3rd, say you were going into the bush and needed a good "Bush Pilot" to take you in there. You have 2 choices; & both have been flying the dame amount of time during the same conditions. One has crashed twice, yet manged to survive to fly agian, the other has never crased and has an exemplary flying record. I don't know about you, but I'm going with the 2nd guy, he seems to know how to avoid getting into the Crap in the 1st place!:cool:

[minuteman]

I think you have the wrong impression Sarge47. I think that the majority that come to this forum just want to learn how to prepare for if or when a survival situation arises and not that they are actually looking forward to getting in to a survival situation. One doesn't have to panic when or if they find themselves in a survival situation as long as they know what they need to do to survive. I think this is a great forum where we can all learn from each others experience and knowledge. I personally enjoy sharing things I've learned as well as learning from others. I kinda thought that that's what this forum was all about. Maybe I was wrong.

[Sarge47]

I think you have the wrong impression Sarge47. I think that the majority that come to this forum just want to learn how to prepare for if or when a survival situation arises and not that they are actually looking forward to getting in to a survival situation. One doesn't have to panic when or if they find themselves in a survival situation as long as they know what they need to do to survive. I think this is a great forum where we can all learn from each others experience and knowledge. I personally enjoy sharing things I've learned as well as learning from others. I kinda thought that that's what this forum was all about. Maybe I was wrong.
Yes, that's what this Forum IS all about. However there are still those who think otherwise, like the TBWN for example. My post was directed to that sort of attitude.:cool:

[dbldrew]

I think that there are those among us who actually look forward to going through a "Survival" situation. Just like the ones who just can't wait for TEOTWAWKI to hit us! To those of you who think that "Surviving stuff" is cool let me say this:

1st, you "Survive Stuff" every day, you just don't know it! If you didn't get into a bad situation, you survived the day. I know, it's not as "cool" as you might like to think, but that's the way it is.

2nd, the old saying "An ounce of prevention is better thatn a pound of cure". For example, ask yourself this: Would rather avoid getting bitten by a rabid dog or have to take the "Rabies Shot Series" because you got bit by one? Either way you survive, which, in your opinion, is better? You want to survive by "avoiding" getting into a survival situation in the 1st place, not have to go through one.

3rd, say you were going into the bush and needed a good "Bush Pilot" to take you in there. You have 2 choices; & both have been flying the dame amount of time during the same conditions. One has crashed twice, yet manged to survive to fly agian, the other has never crased and has an exemplary flying record. I don't know about you, but I'm going with the 2nd guy, he seems to know how to avoid getting into the Crap in the 1st place!:cool:

After I read your title I thought this was going to be about suicide, best way to avoid survival is to die. :D

But on to your point, I’m sure there are some who look forward to a survival situation. Or more accurately I would think that it would be more of a primitive lifestyle they desire. Hunting and fishing for your food, building your own shelter/cabin, chopping your own wood for heat etc, for the guy punching a time clock, or stuffed into a tiny cubicle all day, that kind of “real work” could seem very desirable. I won’t deny my own daydream fantasy of building a cabin and living off the land, but that isn’t the world I live in, I have a wife and 2 kids, so running off into the wilds will have to stay a daydream for now.

I think that is why we see so much talk about all these “hypothetical survival scenarios” it is just people letting there imagination wandering while there are stuck in that tiny cubicle inputting data into some useless report. It’s just the desire to do something real, so the closest they can do is just talk about it on a forum, and I say so what, why would any one care if someone wants to talk about wilderness survival on a freaking wilderness survival forum?

[crashdive123]

Dbldrew brings up a good point. Sometimes we (I) may get too hung up when there is a post about "I'm going on a survival trip" when they really just mean camping or a more primative experience.

[Sarge47]

then we get the "Les Stroud Wannabes" who seem to think that survival is the latest "Extreme Sport". They do exist on this site as well, guys.:cool:

[dbldrew]

then we get the "Les Stroud Wannabes" who seem to think that survival is the latest "Extreme Sport". They do exist on this site as well, guys.:cool:

You’re probably right, but who cares? Whatever their motivation is, be it, extreme sport, fun hobby, connecting with ancestors, or training for the apocalypse, or whatever other reason they are here to talk about wilderness survival, it just doesn’t matter. People are here to talk and learn about wilderness survival, their motivation for doing so is irrelevant.

[minuteman]

Ok, I gotchya!

[Sarge47]

You’re probably right, but who cares?[QUOTE] I do!

[QUOTE]Whatever their motivation is, be it, extreme sport, fun hobby, connecting with ancestors, or training for the apocalypse, or whatever other reason they are here to talk about wilderness survival, it just doesn’t matter. People are here to talk and learn about wilderness survival, their motivation for doing so is irrelevant. I disagree, that's exactly what I'm trying to teach them here...the proper motivation, Attitude is a big part of Survival!:cool:

[welderguy]

Just like the ones who just can't wait for TEOTWAWKI to hit us!
:

I may be a survivalist and I do prepair for that but I hope it never happens I like the internet, and beer to much to wish for that.

Seriously tho, I have talked to some on other forums, and wow There are a lot of mad max wanna be's out there , with the mind set of, if I have the most guns and the most ammo I win. and you know that may be true for awhile. but someday it will run out then what.

Personaly the survival knowledge I have I got for a desire to be prepaired to date I have never needed to use them in a true survival situation, and I hope I never do, do I pratice certain skills from time to time sure, there are some I practice all the time . to me prepairing and learning and also practicing isnt an extreme sport or a hobby its a way to ensure I have the skill and means to keep my family alive .

[Gray Wolf]

I think this, what Sarge is saying, is very important. Yes we get hung up on those posts "I'm going on a survival trip" or "I'm going to try to survive with just...." But I see others get wrapped up in those same posts. Survival is very different than "camping or going on a more primitive experience". A survival situation has very little if any, warning. So much of survival is psychological, something you can't practice. But you can prepare yourself by learning skills, and being truly comfortable in that knowledge and using common sense. That's why most survival schools now make you read "Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies and Why". If you read it, you will be surprised by the ones that lived and shocked at those that wound up dying. Again so much is psychological. I for one am sitting in the seat next to Sarge... "Know how to avoid getting into the Crap in the 1st place!"

[SS Freak]

Although, I enjoy learning about survival in the worst of situations, I too hope to avoid the worst of most things that come around.

One think I do enjoy is "practicing" survival. I know it sounds a little juvenile, but I enjoy going out in a semi-controlled environment and use a little as possible to get by just to see if I can.

SS

[Sarge47]

Although, I enjoy learning about survival in the worst of situations, I too hope to avoid the worst of most things that come around.

One think I do enjoy is "practicing" survival. I know it sounds a little juvenile, but I enjoy going out in a semi-controlled environment and use a little as possible to get by just to see if I can.

SS
i see what you're saying SS, 7 I don't know for sure what you mean by "Semi-Controlled! Rick SAR has posted on here about actual cases of people trying to do certain things & having to be rescued. Sometimes that results in the death of the rescuers going out to save them! In any event it's very costly & inconsiderate of the ones doing it in the 1st place. Here's MY idea of a "controlled" Survival situation. I'm 10 to 20 yads away from my camp. I've started out with my "Survival Skills" before I ever left the house. I told everybody i know where I'm going, even leaving them a map, I've also used Cody Lundin's method of imprinting my shoe print on a sheet of aluminum foil & leaving it in my vehicle along with a note telling potential rescuers where I'm headed, times, dates, etc.. At camp I have matches & a nice Grill lighter within reach, but I practice using another method, like "flint & steel" to start my fire. If that don't work then I go to the matches or lighter. If the weather gets to dicey while I'm sleeping in an improvised shelter then I make a dash for my tent just a short distance away. I have to remember that "Survival" means Surviving the test as well. Nothing is gained or proven by dying in a test situation.:cool:

[Sarge47]

Seriously tho, I have talked to some on other forums, and wow There are a lot of mad max wanna be's out there , with the mind set of, if I have the most guns and the most ammo I win. and you know that may be true for awhile. but someday it will run out then what.
Exactly, WG, they do show up on here from time to time but most of them get kinda disgusted with us "Sheeple"(Baaa!) and leave. They're living a Hollywood Fantasy. The fact is that all those guns & ammo make them a tempting target for others that think like them. Yet they all seem to have that fatal attitude: "It can't happen to me". yes it can!:eek::cool:

[doug1980]

Sarge I agree with you, mostly. But since this is a public forum those types of people will continue to come here and annoy. I hope none of my posts were seen as me thinking this is a sport. I daydream of living primitively, but I know it's not practical nor something that will actually happen. I don't want to be a survival guru or guide. I have no real need to know every aspect of survival nor do I need to I try to plan for every scenario. I don't plan for when TSHTF much nor do I expect to see Armegedon. I plan to hike and camp in Alaska, practice primitive ways to start fire, gather food and things like that with modern back-ups. I also believe that most of the posts you speak of are maily by younger people that have a lot of learning to do. When I was younger I did the same thing. I realize that they need guidance and to allow them to think in that manner could lead them into trouble. However, a less harsh manner might be more effective sometimes. Not trying to tell you what to do, you know more than I do as do most here. Just my opinion, which could be wrong, I have been known to be wrong now and then. But all in all I like this forum and appreciate all the guiadance I have recieved, sometimes I think there is more arguing and redicule than what is neccesary but it is entertaining.

[Gray Wolf]

Sarge, I feel a lot of these attitudes have to do with it being a macho thing, and in part, some being afraid, self questing how good and diversified their skills really are, and being honest enough with themselves, and here, so we can possibly help. Let alone, if it came down to it, could they, and are they capable, of taking another persons life to protect their own and their loved ones. For those of us that have, know that it stays with us forever. Especially when it's close and personal. Again the mental end of a true survival situation is the most intense. The psychological parts of real survival situations are so much more in depth than the few I have mentioned in these posts. Not even getting into how well they need to be trained in wilderness medicine. Enough for now....

[Pal334]

One of the great advantages of a democracy and the internet. People come and go, wide range of opinions, skills and motivations. In my short time on this forum, have seen some strange statements, and some brilliant insights. I personally like this type of unfiltered forum. When the "extreme sportists" show up,they are fairly easy to spot. I generaly do not participate in their discussions because their views do not have much interest to me, nor do I have much of potential interest toprovide them. An old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" Besides, if we all thought the same way, what a boring place this would be

[crashdive123]

Please don't get me wrong, as I am in agreement with Sarge on this. Being prepared and avoiding a bad situation is the best option. I guess in my statement above I was saying that while many ask a question with the word survival in it, they are not really meaning what truely is survival. Often when somebody is corrected or scolded when using phrases like that, they get upset or defensive. I know that I have been quick on occasion to "scold" due to the use of that word. This is why I ask questions a lot (which sometimes is met with the same reactions). As far as "who cares", I do as well. There are a lot of young viewers, or those with no practical experience to the information here. Although I may never know if it happens, I would not want anybody to come to any kind of harm due to foolish or incorrect advice that they thought they learned here.

[nhCyclist]

...say you were going into the bush and needed a good "Bush Pilot" to take you in there. You have 2 choices; & both have been flying the dame amount of time during the same conditions. One has crashed twice, yet manged to survive to fly agian, the other has never crased and has an exemplary flying record. I don't know about you, but I'm going with the 2nd guy, he seems to know how to avoid getting into the Crap in the 1st place!:cool:

I recommend the book "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Everyone on this board (or anyone making decisions in life) should read it. Among other things, it talks about the human tendency to attribute good outcomes with skill, rather than luck. It is a hard book to read for someone who considers themself smart and/or skilled, but it is very enlightening.

As for Sarge's decision, here is a relevant passage from the book.

"But there is a more severe aspect of naive empiricism. I can use data to disprove a proposition, never to prove on. i can use history to refute a conjecture, never to affirm it. For instance, the statement "The market never goes down 60% in a given three-month period" can be tested but is completely meaningless if verified. I can quantitatively reject the proposition by finding counterexamples, but is not possible for me to accept it simply because, in the past, the market never went down 60% in any three-month period (you cannot easily make the logical leap from "has never gone down" to "never goes down"). Samples can be gredatly insufficient; markets may changes; we may not know much about he market from historical information.
You can more safely use the data to reject than to confirm hypotheses. Why? Consider the following statements:
Statement A: No swan is black, because I looked at four thousand swans and found none.
Statement B: Not all swans are white.

I canot logically make statement A, no matter how many successive white swans I may observe in my life and may observe in the future (except of course, if I am given the privilege of observing with certainty all available swans). It is however, possible to make statement B merely by finding one single counterexample...."



The fact that a bush pilot has not crashed yet is not evidence that they will never crash. All bush pilots have some average % of crashing on each flight, let's say 0.01%, or 1 crash per 10,000 flights.

This doesn't mean that a specific pilot WILL crash 1 time per 10,000 flights, just that the average of all pilots experiences 1 crash in 10,000 flights.

It is very possible (I can run the simulations if you want), that a person could fly 30,000 flights and not crash. This doesn't make them any more or less likely to crash the next time they fly.

It is like a quarter that has come up heads 10 times in a row, the chance of it coming up heads again is 50%.

[Sarge47]

I know a lot of you think I'm harsh; but the truth is I'm not. None of you know the way I speak or the tone of my voice. I'm just a "direct, blunt," type of person. You ask me my opinion you get it without a "sugar-coating". we're talking Survival & that's NOT a "Warm & Fuzzy", "Touchy-Feely" kinda thing. It's Life or death & in order to save lives I try to get right to the point. I put a lot of blame on the "Survival Shows" as they over-dramatize a lot of things making it same like some klnd of romantic adventure. Both dudes come out of it okay week after week so how bad can it be? This also is mis-leading & can get people killed or severly injured. When I think of survival I think of events like the soccar team who's plane crashed in the Andes, or the Donner party. People resorted to cannibalism to survive. I notice that niether Les nor Bear ever talk about that!:eek:

Also, to nh cyclist; unless mr. Taleb is flying the plane I'd be choosing then he'd have nothing to say about it. The thing I'd be looking for is weather or not the pilot is "accident prone". Maybe not the right choice, but looking for the one who has the best record.:cool:

[nell67]

For all those who wat to "practice" survival,I think you should volunteer for the disaster training excersises your local recue groups do on an annual basis,they do many different scenerios,from car accidents,plane crashes,search and rescue,chemical accidents,rock climbing,all of them designed to enhance their response times,but they get VERY creative in staging the scenes,the make up jobs they do for injuries are pretty lifelike and they follow through even on stat flighting "victims" out of scenerios.

It could give you a very good idea if you would survive the given scenerio,give you more to think about when it comes to putting yourself ito such a situation,and the sheer manpower needed to save you if your "practice" turns into the real deal.

Sarge,I do not think you are too harsh at all,if your attitude makes someone reconsider putting themselves into a situation where their life is in danger,then keep the attitude.

Survival is not a game,and should not be confused with the primitive lifestyle,which is a learned lifestyle,some are born into the lifestyle and have learned it from the beginning of their existance,others who choose to live it must learn it the hard way.

[dbldrew]

You’re probably right, but who cares? I do!

I disagree, that's exactly what I'm trying to teach them here...the proper motivation, Attitude is a big part of Survival!:cool:

I know attitude in a survival situation is important, but that wasn’t what I was talking about. I was referring to the motivation to come here and learn being irrelevant. Why somebody wants to learn really is nobody’s business other then their own. Furthermore you really don’t have any idea somebody’s reason for coming here unless they actually state why they are here, you are just making an assumption.

Also with shows like Survivor, Alaskan Experiment, Survivor Man, Man vs Wild, or what ever the latest survival show coming out is, those shows are basically in the “extreme sport” category, so someone desiring to participate in the next Alaskan Experiment, or the next survival reality show, why should they not be welcome here, they will probably use their skills more then TSHTF people (at least I hope so)

Also I think this is getting way blown out of proportion anyway, a good many of these threads are as others have said, started from kids. Now if they say they are actually going to go out and purposefully put themselves into a survival situation, they obviously they need to be steered back to reality, sometimes harshly.

But take for example the kid that started the stranded out in a snowmobile thread, he got a lot of flack and not much info. People seemed to want to preach more about never going out unprepared (good advise) but completely ignored the info what do you do if you don’t have your gear. The funny thing that just happened to Jason Montana, he went out didn’t bring his gear, and got his sled stuck, it can happen even to the best of us. So those “hypothetical survivor” situations do happen so maybe a little more sharing of knowledge is in order.

[SurvivorMan002]

I like to practice some survival skills such as making fire with flint and steel and building temporary shelters and there are always a few items helpful to survival i take with me even when i go camping even if i have no intention of using them because anything can happen. You could go venturing out from your camp just scouting around and find yourself totally lost (although you should always keep track which directions your going or even use marking tape) but it happens so to be prepared for that will give you a much more sound mind instead of a panic state. I would never say to wish for a survival experience...but rather be prepared, if you want to stay alive

[Sourdough]

I think this forum is in trouble, And Chris needs to take a serious look at it's next evolution. I feel like I still have more to contribute to people who are serious about wanting to learn about homesteading, cabin construction, land selection, the septic systems, etc.

But This is not the forum for that conversation. I expected more adults with a genuine appetite for learning.

I have better things to do than have my chain yanked by bored/disrespectful children, or being a source of entertainment for bored office workers, having wilderness fantasies.

I am sad and disappointed in the direction of the forum.....:(

Yea, I know don't let the door hit me in the arse........:):):)

[Sarge47]

I know attitude in a survival situation is important, but that wasn’t what I was talking about. I was referring to the motivation to come here and learn being irrelevant. Why somebody wants to learn really is nobody’s business other then their own. Furthermore you really don’t have any idea somebody’s reason for coming here unless they actually state why they are here, you are just making an assumption.

Also with shows like Survivor, Alaskan Experiment, Survivor Man, Man vs Wild, or what ever the latest survival show coming out is, those shows are basically in the “extreme sport” category, so someone desiring to participate in the next Alaskan Experiment, or the next survival reality show, why should they not be welcome here, they will probably use their skills more then TSHTF people (at least I hope so)

Also I think this is getting way blown out of proportion anyway, a good many of these threads are as others have said, started from kids. Now if they say they are actually going to go out and purposefully put themselves into a survival situation, they obviously they need to be steered back to reality, sometimes harshly.

But take for example the kid that started the stranded out in a snowmobile thread, he got a lot of flack and not much info. People seemed to want to preach more about never going out unprepared (good advise) but completely ignored the info what do you do if you don’t have your gear. The funny thing that just happened to Jason Montana, he went out didn’t bring his gear, and got his sled stuck, it can happen even to the best of us. So those “hypothetical survivor” situations do happen so maybe a little more sharing of knowledge is in order.
I keep coming back to this; if you're not ready for the answers, don't ask the questions. Personalities, as well as opinions, vary with the membership here. People express themselves in many differant ways. That's not a bad thing; if someone can't handle that how can they survive a really BAD situation? No one ever died from "hurt feelings", & why should their feelings be hurt anyway?

And you are right about kids starting most of the threads; that's why I'm posting this one; it's directed at them. Perhaps they don't have the proper parental guidance at home, I don't know, but you get what you get from me so think about it before you ask a question that might not give you the answers you'd like to hear.:cool:

[tsitenha]

Well said Hopeak, Sarge as usual is saying the right things and people hear what they want and try to argue a point that honestly leads to many into extremely false directions because we (collectively) blow smoke up some newbies posterior and let them think that its just camping while all they had in mind was their original extreme version of camping.... (barewoods numpties come to mind, yes)
Look at Bear a prime instigator of such fantastic dis-regard of common sense, where is he today in a recovery unit after a serious fall, good thing there was someone immediately there to pick him up and bring to the hospital (I wish him the best recovery)
We do have a responsibility to be encouraging yes but truthfull in the direction of our response to the newer members and yes lurkers out there.

[Sarge47]

I think this forum is in trouble, And Chris needs to take a serious look at it's next evolution. I feel like I still have more to contribute to people who are serious about wanting to learn about homesteading, cabin construction, land selection, the septic systems, etc.

But This is not the forum for that conversation. I expected more adults with a genuine appetite for learning.

I have better things to do than have my chain yanked by bored/disrespectful children, or being a source of entertainment for bored office workers, having wilderness fantasies.

I am sad and disappointed in the direction of the forum.....:(

Yea, I know don't let the door hit me in the arse........:):):)

Hang in there buddy, it was your recent thread that inspired me to post this one!:D Many on here really enjoy your posts so don't give up, okay?:D:cool:

[trax]

Hopeak,

Try to bear in mind that many don't have...and possibly might never have...the opportunity to live the life that you get to take for granted. And yes you do, you even say yourself it's not survival, you don't carry survival gear, it's just your lifestyle. The ones that want to learn, will. The ones that want to blow steam and make fools of themselves will go away, far better you stay on than they. You and I have had disagreements in the past, but I value your input. Want a good example of what I'm talking about with others here? Look at what Ryleyboy and flandersander were posting a few months ago and what they're posting now. They've taken what they've been advised with here and put it to use and I congratulate them. I think we have to bear in mind that this being the InterWeb thingie (which is still a marvel to me) we're going to get all kinds coming and going. I'm grateful that it hasn't been worse, most of the people here, I believe are sincere.

[DOGMAN]

But take for example the kid that started the stranded out in a snowmobile thread, he got a lot of flack and not much info. People seemed to want to preach more about never going out unprepared (good advise) but completely ignored the info what do you do if you don’t have your gear. The funny thing that just happened to Jason Montana, he went out didn’t bring his gear, and got his sled stuck, it can happen even to the best of us. So those “hypothetical survivor” situations do happen so maybe a little more sharing of knowledge is in order.

Good points dbldrew. I was expecting to get hammered by all the forums members for my foolishness...for actually doing (sort of) what the kid wrote about. I guess I didnt get blasted because most of the folks here, know thats not my normal way to operate, and they probably figure I was harder on myself about the idiot move then they would be.

I think the point of all this is- you can't plan for survival situations. If you've got all the right gear to keep you thriving and you've got the skills to use the stuff- survival situations most likely wont happen to you. Undoubtedly 'inconviences" will arise...such as you'll be late for dinner, you might have to walk several miles, etc...But, if you spend alot of times in the wild thats just a reality your used to. My situation yesterday was not a survival situation....worst case scenario I walked the 8 miles home. Major Inconvience. But not life or death.

However, I think it is a good conversation starter...a good real life situation to analyze. It didn't turn into a survival situation because only one thing went wrong. But, what if something else would have gone wrong as well- what if I would have blown out my back while trying to lift the front end of my snow machine out of the snow?

Next thing to analyze...why would a professional outdoorsman who guides winter trips, and teaches winter survival skills be out in the middle of a National Forest in the middle of winter- with no supplies? Am I the only idiot who'd do that? To me riding a snow machine into the National Forest behind my house is not any different that most people driving their car to the store. I even looked at my pack as I was starting my sled and decided not to take it....heck, I was only going for a quick spin. So, critics, don't say "well I would never strike off on a snow machine into the woods late in the afternoon with no gear" many of you probably never do that even with gear. So, think of a similar situation for you. What is something that your comfortable doing- that could lead into a survival situation if a couple of things went wrong?

[DOGMAN]

HopeAk,
If you quit posting here you leave me no option other than to move to Alaska and become a squatter in your guest cabin! So, if you don't want me and my dogs stinking up your place, and disrupting your peace and quite you better keep posting.

I have grown accustomed to getting a daily laugh out of something you've said, and heck I even learn a thing or two from you every now and then. So, one way or another that has to continue...its your choice bubba. Barking dogs and lots of poo stinking up the neighborhood, or you continue to spend some time here!

[tsitenha]

Jason,

why would a professional outdoorsman who guides winter trips, and teaches winter survival skills be out in the middle of a National Forest in the middle of winter- with no supplies?
I think it has to some degree become a macho extreme expression of self recognised credibility. The more I know the less I have to carry going not only to the extremes but sometimes past the point of diminishing returns.
Or even just the casual trip that in this instance go wrong (familiarity breeds contempt)
I see people go out and laugh at those who carry even for a half day jaunt a small day pack with a few items (just in case). They (the laugher) return, safe and sound several time before something strikes then you hear it on the 10:00 news, but the even slightly prepared keeps on chugging with no news special on them (in most cases) what happens to them they mentally are on the road to adapt and improvise to a likely situation, it doesn't become an accident just an incident or adventure.

[trax]

When I worked in mining, I saw some of the "stupidest" mistakes/injuries happening to the most experienced guys. Oftentimes, I think we just become too comfortable with the environment and let our sense of safety first slide.

[DOGMAN]

Jason,

I think it has to some degree become a macho extreme expression of self recognised credibility. The more I know the less I have to carry going not only to the extremes but sometimes past the point of diminishing returns.
Or even just the casual trip that in this instance go wrong (familiarity breeds contempt)
I see people go out and laugh at those who carry even for a half day jaunt a small day pack with a few items (just in case). They (the laugher) return, safe and sound several time before something strikes then you hear it on the 10:00 news, but the even slightly prepared keeps on chugging with no news special on them (in most cases) what happens to them they mentally are on the road to adapt and improvise to a likely situation, it doesn't become an accident just an incident or adventure.

I'm not sure it was a macho thing. I would never have made fun of someone else for packing along gear. Heck, if others were going I would've taken gear.

It was really a "I am just going for a quick spin behind my house" decision. Defiently a familiarity breeds contempt type of thing. I've heard several times that in the Navy Seals most accidents happen to really experienced team members- not the newbies. The reason being is the "experts" skipped the basics because they've done it so many times were nothing went wrong, that they begin to take things for granted....

[DOGMAN]

Good work Trax...you and I said the same thing. However it took me twice as many words. nicely done...nicely done!

[tsitenha]

Jason, maybe you should also be thinking of yourself more, might be that you have been taking responsibility for other that you may have stopped taking yourself into consideration.
First responders are constantly being made awares of this, they seem after a while, to try to save every body and just plain forget that they are there in the flesh also.
Your to valuable to forget what would your dogs do without you?

[ClovisMan]

It is impossible to Avoid Survival in the Houston Metropolitan area. Everytime you get in your vehicle and hit the freeway, you are in a survival situation around here. 55 mph means 70 and 70 mph means 90. If you don't go be these rules, you get the finger, something thrown at you, or run over. I won't even go into the public transportation around here.
Always be prepared and aware of your surroundings.

[Sourdough]

Hang in there buddy, it was your recent thread that inspired me to post this one!:D Many on here really enjoy your posts so don't give up, okay?:D:cool:

Wareagle has stated recently that he is going to avoid posting to the forum, and start using the Blog section for what he wants to communicate. And this may be a direction for many of us.

I just feel there is a better way to layout the forum. For example keep want you have.

But add a room with only five or ten knowledgeable people on the subject of that room.

Only have three or five rooms (subjects) exist at any one time.

Survival (pick any subject).........everyone could watch a small group discuss that subject. Everyone could send notes to the committee, but would not be part of the discussion. At the end of 90 days the committee would have something useful a new forum member or visitor could use as a starting point.

The forum as it is now would continue to exist, as is. The rooms would be in addition, and charged with formulating conclusions for those who don't need or want too read a thread with 347 posts. They just want a short list.

[sgtdraino]

I recommend the book "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. Everyone on this board (or anyone making decisions in life) should read it. Among other things, it talks about the human tendency to attribute good outcomes with skill, rather than luck. It is a hard book to read for someone who considers themself smart and/or skilled, but it is very enlightening.

I have not read the book, but I can guess a bit about it from your description: The most well-prepared survival expert can do everything right... and still be killed quite easily. The most clueless wilderness noob can make every mistake in the book, and still sometimes survive. Things happen that are largely out of our control. We can sharpen our skills as best we can, but nobody can be prepared for every single possibility. Learning the skills taught here on this forum are an edge, not a guarantee, and anyone who purposefully puts themselves in a real survival situation is a fool. Even Les Stroud has an emergency backup plan, should things go really, really wrong.


I put a lot of blame on the "Survival Shows" as they over-dramatize a lot of things making it same like some klnd of romantic adventure. Both dudes come out of it okay week after week so how bad can it be?

There is no denying that there is a certain romantic attraction to the idea of survival. I think it is mostly connected to the idea of complete self-sufficency. The idea that you don't need anyone or anything to help you, you could make it all by yourself. And I'll bet many of us, even the real experts here, have imagined themselves in some extraordinary situation, thinking about how they would perform. In a noob the experts would probably call this daydreaming. In themselves they would call it planning ahead. I think the key in all this is to not buy into the romantic fantasy aspects. To keep reminding yourself that the world is dangerous, and to wish for more danger is to tempt fate. The more I have learned about survival, the more I have learned that real, true self-sufficiency is virtually a myth. Heck, everyone who posts on this forum is dependent on the internet and various service providers to do so. If you really, really know what you're doing, you might be able to go out into the wilderness and live primitively for a year. But could you do it for 5 years? 10? 50? And you might be able to do it in Alaska, but could you do it in the Amazon? Or on an island? The truth is that human beings, no matter how tough or knowledgeable we are, are at most self-sufficient for limited periods of time. Eventually we get sick, or something else happens, and we need help. The most our learning can accomplish, it to potentially extend that limited period of time a bit.

As far as Les surviving for a week, I find the program very educational, but surviving for one week is not really that hard to do. It can be very unpleasant, but generally is not actually hard. Shelter and water is practically all you really need. As Les has demonstrated repeatedly, even if you eat nothing at all, you will still probably be alive a week later.


When I think of survival I think of events like the soccar team who's plane crashed in the Andes, or the Donner party. People resorted to cannibalism to survive.

One of the soccer team survivors wrote a book, "Alive" (they made a movie, but the book is of course better). Excellent book. Really shows how hard it can be. At one point they were cracking open skulls and eating brains, and scraping flesh off frozen dead bodies. They got so malnourished they had to pry rock-like turds out with their fingers.


I think this forum is in trouble, And Chris needs to take a serious look at it's next evolution.

I think this forum is doing fine. People come and go, the interested ones will stay. Don't sweat the small stuff. If you think someone's yanking your chain, then heck, don't post in their thread. Don't feed the trolls! ;)


I feel like I still have more to contribute to people who are serious about wanting to learn about homesteading, cabin construction, land selection, the septic systems, etc.

But This is not the forum for that conversation. I expected more adults with a genuine appetite for learning.

I think those could be great topics for this forum. Why wait for someone to ask the right question? Start threads, and share your wisdom. Even if it doesn't look like many people are looking at it right away, that doesn't mean it won't be useful in the future. Homesteading is not an option for me right now, as much as I wish it was. But someday it might be, and when that time comes, your thread could be an invaluable tool.


I think the point of all this is- you can't plan for survival situations.

Yep. And wilderness survival is only one general category of survival situation. No one can be ready for everything, you can only try to prepare for the type of area you expect to be in, and for situation you think might occur.

Another thing I like to remind myself of when dealing with other people, is that there are all different kinds of "smarts," and nobody knows everything. Yes, there are some people that are just general idiots, but by-and-large, you know something I don't know, I know something you don't know, and so on. A forum like this allows us to share what we know with each other, so that we both become wiser from the experience. And in recognizing that almost everyone has some knowledge of value, is smarter about some certain thing than the rest of us, we can recognize how almost everyone is deserving of respect.


Wareagle has stated recently that he is going to avoid posting to the forum, and start using the Blog section for what he wants to communicate. And this may be a direction for many of us.

I hope not. When I want to find out about something on this forum, I generally search for keywords using the search function. It doesn't seem like those search through blog entries, at least not in my experience. If the really useful knowledge ends up being confined to blogs, how are average users like me going to find the topics they are looking for? Granted I don't have much experience with the blog mechanics here yet, perhaps someone will enlighten me?


But add a room with only five or ten knowledgeable people on the subject of that room.

Only have three or five rooms (subjects) exist at any one time.

Survival (pick any subject).........everyone could watch a small group discuss that subject. Everyone could send notes to the committee, but would not be part of the discussion. At the end of 90 days the committee would have something useful a new forum member or visitor could use as a starting point.

I have to say this idea really does not appeal to me. For one thing, who decides who are the "knowledgeable people," and who aren't? Do people deemed too amateur at some point become "knowledgeable" after they have accumulated a certain amount of experience? How would such experience be demonstrated? Would people be deemed "knowledgeable" in certain areas, but not in others?

I understand how you would like to filter out some of the stupid questions and comments in order to avoid wading through a long thread, but I prefer to think that even newcomers or the inexperienced can sometimes contribute to useful discussion. Sometimes people less familiar with a topic can offer a different perspective that would never even occur to an experienced person. I also don't like the idea of segregating the forum's population into basically two classes of citizens, with "experts" only deigning to hold their lofty discussions with other "experts." Ugh.


The forum as it is now would continue to exist, as is. The rooms would be in addition, and charged with formulating conclusions for those who don't need or want too read a thread with 347 posts. They just want a short list.

One idea that has worked to some positive effect in another forum I frequent, is to designate an area for conversations that are obviously "noob" in nature. Noobs are encouraged (but not required) to post there, and for any thread that moderators think is sufficiently "noobish" (i.e. something that has already been discussed ad infinitum in a pre-existing better thread), the moderators move that into the "noob" area, instead of being merged with the "official" post on the subject.

For example, take the "Knife/Survival Knife Info" sticky. That is a huge bloated thread with almost 1000 posts, it'd take forever to read through all that. I'll bet there's plenty of repetition in that thread by noobs who haven't read the whole thing (heck, who would?), partly because new threads that noobs post on the same topic are merged with that original thread. But if it is just a noob thread talking about what has already been discussed, then rather than merging it with the "quality" discussion, it would instead be moved into the "noob" area, to live or die on its own. That might keep our "real" threads on the topic less bloated.

[Sarge47]

Great stuff Sgt D.! It's not all that hard to access the Blogs; there are 2 ways to do it. 1st, you just click on the word Blog at the top of the page & you're in. Then you move around looking & reading. That's the "general" way of doing it. The other is to notice the little red number under avatars, like mine, that tells you if someone has posted a Blog & how many. Just click on it & you're there! Good Luck!:D

At one point Chris had tried installing a Wiki but it never worked out.:eek:

I also agree with you that the decision on who is the most experienced would probably lead to another debate, with some dis-agreeing with the choices made. The "room" angle, while probably feasable, is pretty complicated & I'm not sure that I'd want to take the time to do all that. Shoot, I'm pretty busy the way it is.:cool:

[sgtdraino]

Great stuff Sgt D.! It's not all that hard to access the Blogs; there are 2 ways to do it. 1st, you just click on the word Blog at the top of the page & you're in. Then you move around looking & reading. That's the "general" way of doing it.

Ah, that's not bad! I see they even have their own search machine, which is vital as far as I'm concerned.

Still, when all is said and done, I think I prefer a lively discussion rather than a static blog with just one person writing on the subject.


The other is to notice the little red number under avatars, like mine, that tells you if someone has posted a Blog & how many.

Yeah, I have noticed those, and occasionally click them. But I find I am more motivated to read something due to the topic, rather than simply who wrote it. The little red number doesn't tell you want the blog is about. It doesn't "grab" me like an interesting thread title does.

[trax]

SgtDraino...those were two well thought out and well expressed opinions in a row...are you sure you're in the right place? :confused: :D

[crashdive123]

I think this forum is in trouble, And Chris needs to take a serious look at it's next evolution. I feel like I still have more to contribute to people who are serious about wanting to learn about homesteading, cabin construction, land selection, the septic systems, etc.

But This is not the forum for that conversation. I expected more adults with a genuine appetite for learning.

I have better things to do than have my chain yanked by bored/disrespectful children, or being a source of entertainment for bored office workers, having wilderness fantasies.

I am sad and disappointed in the direction of the forum.....:(

Yea, I know don't let the door hit me in the arse........:):):)

I was reading over a bunch of stuff intended to help the new Fledgling Moderator and noticed one entry that said "Hopeak ain't allowed to go nowhere!" Just thought I'd pass it along.

[dbldrew]

Wareagle has stated recently that he is going to avoid posting to the forum, and start using the Blog section for what he wants to communicate. And this may be a direction for many of us.

I just feel there is a better way to layout the forum. For example keep want you have.

But add a room with only five or ten knowledgeable people on the subject of that room.

Only have three or five rooms (subjects) exist at any one time.

Survival (pick any subject).........everyone could watch a small group discuss that subject. Everyone could send notes to the committee, but would not be part of the discussion. At the end of 90 days the committee would have something useful a new forum member or visitor could use as a starting point.

The forum as it is now would continue to exist, as is. The rooms would be in addition, and charged with formulating conclusions for those who don't need or want too read a thread with 347 posts. They just want a short list.

There is another survival forum that has a vip section, maybe that would solve a lot of the problems. Have it so everybody can view the vip section, but only vip members can post in it. It could be set up where you become a vip after an amount of time or number of posts or something like that.

That way the diehard members who are getting a little burned out dealing with new members have a place to post without all the irritating questions.

Just a thought

[trax]

Yeah, but I'd have to wonder again, who qualifies as a vip?

[crashdive123]

Yeah, but I'd have to wonder again, who qualifies as a vip?

If it's the forum that I'm thinking of, it's those that pay money......so any noob with an allowance could be a VIP I guess. Besides, I would question any organization that would have me as a VIP.:D

[tsitenha]

Maybe a VIP section but not by the number of posts but by a consensus of the mods and Chris?

[trax]

If it's the forum that I'm thinking of, it's those that pay money......so any noob with an allowance could be a VIP I guess. Besides, I would question any organization that would have me as a VIP.:D

Well me too, for that matter earlier today I was trying to question an organization that would have you as a moderator, but to no avail (sorry man, you walked right into that one :D)

[crashdive123]

Maybe a VIP section but not by the number of posts but by a consensus of the mods and Chris?

Isn't that kind of the idea behind "Reputation"?

[crashdive123]

Well me too, for that matter earlier today I was trying to question an organization that would have you as a moderator, but to no avail (sorry man, you walked right into that one :D)

I would have expected no less.;)

[trax]

Isn't that kind of the idea behind "Reputation"?

and from my way of thinking there's a million new things to learn for anyone...whether it's about wilderness, survival, or both and a noob can come up with a clever new way of doing something just as well as anyone else

[doug1980]

Well if the questions or a particular person is annoying then don't reply. I'm sure eventually they'll get the hint and move on to another forum. The thing with survival forums is most of them are geared more to the zombie killers, BOB types. This one is a bit different but newbies won't know that right away. Just ignore those types if you don't like them and they'll take the hint. Hopefully.

[trax]

Wait a minute....you got a problem with zombie killers? (note to self: keep a close eye on doug):D

[dbldrew]

It could be invite only if they wanted, the only reason I suggested time or # of posts is theoretically if a person spends enough time here they should pick up enough info to be able to carry on an intelligent debate, again that is theoretically :D

[doug1980]

Wait a minute....you got a problem with zombie killers? (note to self: keep a close eye on doug):D

Me, no, :D to each their own. I'm not really into thinking about it, but I wouldn't tell someone to stop.

[tsitenha]

Rep point can be given by anybody but a VIP section by the mods and Chris would direct the forum where they want to go, Chris's nickel, his say.

[trax]

....they should pick up enough info to be able to carry on an intelligent debate, again that is theoretically :D


uh yeah...(ahem) I'm uh....yeah...I'm still workin' on that :o

[RangerXanatos]

Wait a minute....you got a problem with zombie killers? (note to self: keep a close eye on doug):D

Already killed some of my zombies today! :eek:

http://www.bumlee.com/deanimator.html

Enjoy. :D:D

[sgtdraino]

Have it so everybody can view the vip section, but only vip members can post in it. It could be set up where you become a vip after an amount of time or number of posts or something like that.

I actually like this idea a lot. And those are exactly the standards I'd use: Your join date, and your number of posts. It's impartial, it says less about how much of an "expert" you supposedly are, and says more about whether or not you are really serious about participating in this community.

I wouldn't have a very high standard, just high enough to keep out the lurkers, trolls, and spammers. Maybe the standard of membership at least 1 month old, and post count of at least 30. The time length standard should knock out the spammers and trolls, the post count standard should knock out the lurkers. Anyone who meets both, probably really wants to be here.

I have no idea if such a thing can be coded into vbulletin. It would suck if people had to manually apply for access when the standards are met, and a moderator would have to wade through the applications.

[Ziggy]

When I was a kid, and learned a lot of my skills, it was for the adventure of it, and the need to get away from people. I had the misguided notion that I could do just fine without society. Then I grew up, got a job, and learned to like some things like monmey and cars.

I stuck with survival skills not for any love of freezing my butt cheeks to a rock, but for me it is the ultimate form of liberty, one of the few things you can't take away from me, tax me out of, or even find me unless I so choose. It is the only legacy I intend to pass to my grandchildren, not independence, but the ability to BE independent.

[Ole WV Coot]

and from my way of thinking there's a million new things to learn for anyone...whether it's about wilderness, survival, or both and a noob can come up with a clever new way of doing something just as well as anyone else

You tell them Son. Statements like that just bring a tear to my eye, you've done good and even got a touch of common sense.;)

[klkak]

Make me a VIP! I've always wanted to be a VIP! Please please please please pplleeeaaasssse......,

[crashdive123]

How about a fast VIP?

http://www.vipexpress.com/images/vip_logo.jpg

[klkak]

WooooooHooooooo. :D I'm a VIP!!! :D