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superior
12-17-2008, 07:41 PM
I have an 18" bbl smoothbore pump with ghost-ring sights and while I know it makes a fine 50 yard slug gun for deer, what else can it be used for other than self defense? Can it be used for an all around survival weapon? Can it be effective on small game and birds? At what range and with what size shot ? The bore is cylinder bore- no choke. I'm thinking that it wont pattern tight enough. Am I wrong ? Whaddaya think?:confused:

skunkkiller
12-17-2008, 07:48 PM
I use one of them for anything i want to hunt when not using my kentucy 45 blackpowder

crashdive123
12-17-2008, 07:51 PM
Can it be used for an all around survival weapon? Yes


Can it be effective on small game and birds? Yes


At what range and with what size shot ? I will leave that question to those with more first hand knowledge.

Stairman
12-17-2008, 07:53 PM
Im surprised a smooth bore can fling a slug very accurate.Rifleing makes it spin.Without it it would be tumbleing.

superior
12-17-2008, 08:06 PM
With a "rifled slug" I explode water-filled milk jugs at 50 yards effortlessly.

Gray Wolf
12-17-2008, 08:13 PM
What gauge shotgun is it?

superior
12-17-2008, 08:16 PM
Did you know that the main gun on an m1a Abrams battle tank is a German made smooth bore? How far does that baby shoot accurately lol? Ask our enemies!

superior
12-17-2008, 08:17 PM
It's a 12ga. Gray Wolf.

Pal334
12-17-2008, 08:28 PM
I am a long time advocate of the shotgun because of its versatility (my humble opinion). My preference is a "coach type". You should take time and try to figure what YOUthink your needs may be.And then experiment with various loads etc to meet your needs. With practice, you can do almost anything doable with a firearm (short of long range nail driving). Just keep in mind it will be a series of compromises when you are limited to one firearm, regardless of its type or caliber/gauge. In your case one of the most apparent is the weight of the weapon and its ammunition. As with any tool, practice, practice and then when you think you have a handle on it, practice again.:cool:

superior
12-17-2008, 08:30 PM
I guess a milk jug at 50 yards to me is like a russian tank at 1 mile to them lol.

palm stalker
12-17-2008, 09:03 PM
I use one of them for anything i want to hunt when not using my kentucy 45 blackpowder

i to have a .45 bp percussion works best at hunting in my local,,i have a .410 for the rest.. its not the gun.. its the aim!!!!!!!!!!:D

Runs With Beer
12-17-2008, 09:08 PM
I have hunted with a smoothbore shotgun most of my life, Heck, My Flintlock is a smoothbore. My self, Between a shot gun and a 1022, Which a love, A shotgun Is in my world the best choice, It will feed you, and keep the bad ...away.

tsitenha
12-17-2008, 09:13 PM
A short barreled shotgun with rifle sights (peep), smooth bore for shot or buckshot and rifled slugs or even sabots in an emergency is very useful for game getting and defense. Only the bulkiness of the shells and weight would add as a detractor.

tipacanoe
12-17-2008, 09:35 PM
Superior, you should check into getting another barrel . That way it could do anything you want, and they aren't that expensive. I have a rifled barrel and a scope that I have deer hunted with for many years, and a smooth bore with choke tubes for game birds and rabbit. If you do get a rifled barrel, and your hunting shotgun only area's, make sure that the rifled barrel is legal, because some area's require that smooth bore. With some of the new sabot slugs you can reach out to 150 yards and have a 4 inch group

superior
12-17-2008, 09:38 PM
OK , but what kind of patern will I get, say, with #6 shot for rabbits and squirrels. Remember, short 18" barrel with cylinder bore- Will my range be limited severely? My 870 express has a 28" bbl and it peppers them with the full choke tube out to about 40-50 yards. How about the short cylinder bore bbl? What's the farthest reliable distance I can get small game with it?

crashdive123
12-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Your most accurate answer is going to come from trying it. Paper targets at various ranges so that you can see the spread.

tsitenha
12-17-2008, 09:42 PM
If you game for it you could have a smith tap your short barrel to accept Rem chokes and interchange at will, even as far as adding a rifled extended choke tube for the sabot slugs.

superior
12-17-2008, 09:46 PM
Ok, I was just hoping someone would have already done it and pass along some of their experience to me. I will try practicing when the weather gets a little nicer here. Put it this way: Has anyone killed a squirrel or rabit with #6 shot at 30 yards or more with a short barreled shotgun? If so, I'd like to hear about it.

tsitenha
12-17-2008, 09:53 PM
My wife has a 20ga shortened barrel as described. I installed sights on it, can't remember the shot size but the hare still died.

We don't use black powder anymore, modern propellents are more effecient and don't need the longer tubes to burn the powder, other than the sighting plain being shorter everything is A OK

FVR
12-17-2008, 09:57 PM
I have on my list to get, one of the double barrel coach guns in 12ga. Just waiting for a good deal.

Runs With Beer
12-17-2008, 10:03 PM
OK , but what kind of patern will I get, say, with #6 shot for rabbits and squirrels. Remember, short 18" barrel with cylinder bore- Will my range be limited severely? My 870 express has a 28" bbl and it peppers them with the full choke tube out to about 40-50 yards. How about the short cylinder bore bbl? What's the farthest reliable distance I can get small game with it?

Your going to have to get a lot closer, 20 yards Im thinking Max.

klkak
12-17-2008, 10:09 PM
I have an 18" bbl smoothbore pump with ghost-ring sights and while I know it makes a fine 50 yard slug gun for deer, what else can it be used for other than self defense? Can it be used for an all around survival weapon? Can it be effective on small game and birds? At what range and with what size shot ? The bore is cylinder bore- no choke. I'm thinking that it wont pattern tight enough. Am I wrong ? Whaddaya think?:confused:

Get you a roll of white butchers paper and several different types of shells. Go out and shoot it and see how your gun patterns at different ranges. That is the only way you will know.

flandersander
12-17-2008, 10:27 PM
a friend of mine has an 18" barrel .410 and its only good to 30 yards with a slug. lol. Its fun to shoot though.

SARKY
12-17-2008, 10:29 PM
you don't say what make your shotgun is. If it is a Mossy, Rem, or winchester, you can get other barrels for it, such as a rifled sabot slug barrel or a barrel with interchangeable chokes. Or you just take your barrel to a competent gunsmith and they can machine it to take screw in chokes. This will give you a lot more versitility with the shotgun

Runs With Beer
12-17-2008, 10:46 PM
you don't say what make your shotgun is. If it is a Mossy, Rem, or winchester, you can get other barrels for it, such as a rifled sabot slug barrel or a barrel with interchangeable chokes. Or you just take your barrel to a competent gunsmith and they can machine it to take screw in chokes. This will give you a lot more versitility with the shotgun

He did say Cylinder bore.

primeelite
12-17-2008, 10:52 PM
I think an 18 inch shotgun in 12 gauge is probably one of the better "survival" guns because it is pretty versatile and reliable. 18 inch is pretty short but I though when you said short you meant like a trench gun model or "Shorty" shotgun that are like 10-12 inches or whatever.

superior
12-18-2008, 12:28 AM
It's a hawk model 98 by Interstate arms of ballerica mass. It looks almost exactly like my 870 but the barrel attachment system is not the same. It wont take 870 barrels. The thickness of the barrel at the muzzle end is not very much at all. It looks as though there would'nt be enough material to tap without punching through the metal. I could be wrong though. I'm sure that with a good choke tube set-up the gun would be my favorite. I wonder if i could get a poly-choke put on, hmmmm.

Pict
12-18-2008, 09:35 AM
Patterning your shotgun with the loads you have is the best advice anyone could give. After that just take it out and do some hunting. I have 20 inch barrels for my 870 and Itaca 37. Both have rifle sights (smoothbore) for shooting slugs and are very capable out to 75 yards on deer.

With shot and an 18 inch barrel on small game your range will be limited a little. You have to take into account that lower pattern density will result in less pellets striking the game. If you go with light pellets (7 1/2) to increase density at longer ranges you will hit the animal with maybe a few more pellets but they won't penetrate as deep. Using a larger pellet size, like copper plated #2 or BB will result in a less dense pattern but the individual pellets will penetrate deeper on game and do more damage individually at longer ranges. Somewhere in the middle is a compromise that will work best for the majority of game in your area.

With such a question there really is no substitute for practical experience with your gun, loads, and the game you intend to shoot. Pattern the gun and go hunting. Mac

ETA - As a kid I did alot of hunting and had to buy my own ammo. I used #4 shot most of the time for most game and it worked very well. Copper #2's and BB work great for groundhogs. Just for fun hit a man sized target with BB at 50 yards. The shotgun loaded with this round would be an effective means of forcing a shooter behind cover real fast.

muddyredneck
12-18-2008, 12:45 PM
a quick question for mr cheney please

superior
12-18-2008, 03:50 PM
Thanks pict and others for the good advice! A Vietnam vet here at work just confirmed what Pict said. He said at 30 to 50 yards, the short shotgun would drop the enemy like a rock with buckshot. He also said that small game with shot would be limited to about 25-30 yards most likely because of lack of pattern density. In any case he says the shotgun was a muched loved weapon in vietnam and
charlie feared it the most. He was awarded the purple heart for being shot completely through the torso with a 7.62x39. He still takes pain meds today. I think hunting small game with long range #6 shot will prove to be worthwhile. My shotgun is patterned after the same model used in Vietnam. It looks identical.

Pict
12-18-2008, 04:50 PM
The rule of thumb for buckshot spread is roughly once inch of spread per yard of distance. Standard police logic mandates that all pellets stay on the torso of a man and thus they recommend that no shots over 15 yards be taken. Buckshot fired at 25 yards has about a 25 inch spread, plenty of room to tag the torso with most of the pattern. At 50 yards a total miss with buckshot is unlikely but you are only talking a few hits with no control as to where they land. Still a 50 yard hit with a buckshot pattern is a game changer which does fall into the "death or serious injury" category. My brother took a running coyote at 75 yards with OO Buck hitting it in the chest, jaw, and paw. At 100 yards OO Buck results in soiled underwear for sure and possibly some damage, the word is still out though as nobody stands around waiting for a second shot. Mac

Pal334
12-18-2008, 05:04 PM
The rule of thumb for buckshot spread is roughly once inch of spread per yard of distance. Standard police logic mandates that all pellets stay on the torso of a man and thus they recommend that no shots over 15 yards be taken. Buckshot fired at 25 yards has about a 25 inch spread, plenty of room to tag the torso with most of the pattern. At 50 yards a total miss with buckshot is unlikely but you are only talking a few hits with no control as to where they land. Still a 50 yard hit with a buckshot pattern is a game changer which does fall into the "death or serious injury" category. My brother took a running coyote at 75 yards with OO Buck hitting it in the chest, jaw, and paw. At 100 yards OO Buck results in soiled underwear for sure and possibly some damage, the word is still out though as nobody stands around waiting for a second shot. Mac

A man after my own heart. Every opportunity I had, I used a shorty. As an NCO , I seldom needed to use the shorty out to 100yards, usually was when things went bad 50yards or less. However, nothing makes a guy flinch like the boom and pellets in the air out to 75 to 100 yards. Guaranteed lethality? Nope, but made folks duck which facilitated an "exit stage right".

Pict
12-18-2008, 05:33 PM
Pal334,

I have never had occasion to fire a shotgun at someone but I have patterned my shotgun out to 100 yards and I have carried it while searching for drug plots. Given a choice I would most likely opt for my AK as it is lethal from 0 - 350. The thing is, if you tally up the number of days I have spent with a shotgun afield as opposed to an AK there is no comparison.

Most of what is written about combat shotguns comes from either a home defense or police point of view. The mantra of UNDER 25 YARDS is a constant in such literature as if shotgun pellets lose all effect or evaporate after 25 yards. In a rural setting devoid of the mythical orphanage downrange, when fired upon... FIRE BACK!

If you don't get a solid, decisive hit at 82.3 yards with OO Buck... that's what the pump is for, try again. I would much rather face a guy who got tagged in the hip, shoulder, and knee with three round balls than an unwounded opponent. Wounded people looking for cover have a hard time aiming. I will settle for taking the fight out of someone if I can't take them out of the fight. Mac

Dragonfyre
12-18-2008, 05:44 PM
I've used smooth bore shotguns all my life. I've gotten pretty accurate with them to a point. Obviously they are not tack drivers even when you use a rifled bore with a sabot but you can be pretty darn good! This year I took my first ever buck with a smooth bore single shot 12ga. Knocked that animal down dead at 50 yards! I've used 12ga smooth bores for birds and squirrels at reasonable distances within 50 yards. Now an 18 inch smooth bore is another story with smaller game and bird shot...not going to be that great. I like my 18 inch 12ga pump for home defense! I have a few friends that have 18" barrels on their H&R shotguns but the barrels are rifled and they take game (deer) at distances of up to 70+ yards. But, in my opinion a smooth bore shotgun is a good all around friend.

superior
12-18-2008, 06:35 PM
Does the 1 inch per yard spread apply to the 18" barrel? Is that with buckshot only or does that hold true with other sizes?

Pal334
12-18-2008, 06:54 PM
Pal334,

I have never had occasion to fire a shotgun at someone but I have patterned my shotgun out to 100 yards and I have carried it while searching for drug plots. Given a choice I would most likely opt for my AK as it is lethal from 0 - 350. The thing is, if you tally up the number of days I have spent with a shotgun afield as opposed to an AK there is no comparison.

Most of what is written about combat shotguns comes from either a home defense or police point of view. The mantra of UNDER 25 YARDS is a constant in such literature as if shotgun pellets lose all effect or evaporate after 25 yards. In a rural setting devoid of the mythical orphanage downrange, when fired upon... FIRE BACK!

If you don't get a solid, decisive hit at 82.3 yards with OO Buck... that's what the pump is for, try again. I would much rather face a guy who got tagged in the hip, shoulder, and knee with three round balls than an unwounded opponent. Wounded people looking for cover have a hard time aiming. I will settle for taking the fight out of someone if I can't take them out of the fight. Mac

No arguements from me on this. If I had the bad luck of being one on one with an AK armed bad guy in an open field, I would have been in some deep trouble.:eek: However since my duties were and have been essentially directing troops etc, the shorty worked just fine. And you are right having the ability to deflate someones will to fight is an effective strategy. This worked for me as a young 18 year old in South East Asia and more recently as a gray hair ;)in the Sand box.

Jericho117
12-18-2008, 07:04 PM
It's not only compact for good storage, but I guess it would be really effective for short-range combat. I have 26 12ga Dove and Duck load shotgun shells that im trying to sell off, I actually found them in a dumbster when I first moved here.

Stairman
12-18-2008, 07:44 PM
Personally I prefer a 22 as a survival gun.I have many shotguns but hate to bite shot while eating what I killed.Shells take up alot more room if thats an issue.I knew an old poacher once who used a 22 long rifle exclusivly.The trick he said was to shoot em in the eye or as close to it as you can.Im talkin deer here,and I am against any kind of poaching unless your starving of course.

tsitenha
12-18-2008, 08:13 PM
Shot dispersal also is greatly influenced by the tightness of the choke, with inter changeable choke you can make your shotgun stretch out a bit further or really open it up closer, even have it spread horizontaly to a point.

Pict, in Malaysia the Brits used a shot shell with a dual load or better said a mixed load of small dia. bird shot and buck shot, this opened up holes in the foilage and greatly discouraged the opposition. It is what is commonly refered to as a Malay load.

primeelite
12-18-2008, 08:49 PM
Personally I prefer a 22 as a survival gun.I have many shotguns but hate to bite shot while eating what I killed.Shells take up alot more room if thats an issue.I knew an old poacher once who used a 22 long rifle exclusivly.The trick he said was to shoot em in the eye or as close to it as you can.Im talkin deer here,and I am against any kind of poaching unless your starving of course.

Why would you hunt larger game with a .22? We are talking about shotguns here now anyways and a .22 is used in many situations and can be a good survival gun but shouldn't be used to hunt larger game. The .22 really isn't going to be effective in most situations especially some talked about above in this thread.

crashdive123
12-19-2008, 01:42 AM
There may be a couple of experienced 22 hunters on hear that may disagree.

tsitenha
12-19-2008, 01:07 PM
Small game for me has always been gotten with a .22lr 35+yrs.
My wife uses a 20ga short shotgun, but my .22 has gotten more meat by far and in a survival situation it would be my go to firearm hands down

Tuckahoe
12-25-2008, 10:06 PM
The sure way to know how your shotgun patterns is to test it. A couple of large pieces of paper or cardboard should let you know what your gun is doing. When I was with the sheriff's office we were issued mossberg 500's with 18 inch barrels. At 25 yds offhand I could have touching holes pretty regular using Remington slugs.

crashdive123
12-25-2008, 10:14 PM
Good advice Tuckahoe. How about shooting on over to the introduction section and tell us a bit about yourself. Thanks.