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View Full Version : No Dead Bodies!!! PLease!!



marylp
12-13-2008, 04:06 PM
Ok guys I need you help yet again. We are always discussing guns and ammo and stuff like that. But what if I have to defend myself or my child or property and I want to do it but not kill anyone. No really, I cannot imagine having to contend with a dead body in my house or property. We are in a small South Texas town. There are no Crime Scene clean up crews here, you have to do it yourself. I want a weapon that will cause alot of fear and pain. But I dont want to have to scrape brain fragments from my walls and furniture. I think that scares me alot. I am a lousy shot, I even if a aim for a leg I will probably hit somewhere else. Knives wouldnt work either because I would have to get really close. I could ask for ideas at work but I would really raise alot of eyebrows. Something painful without the flying body parts. Any ideas??:eek:

Sam
12-13-2008, 04:10 PM
Ok guys I need you help yet again. We are always discussing guns and ammo and stuff like that. But what if I have to defend myself or my child or property and I want to do it but not kill anyone. No really, I cannot imagine having to contend with a dead body in my house or property. We are in a small South Texas town. There are no Crime Scene clean up crews here, you have to do it yourself. I want a weapon that will cause alot of fear and pain. But I dont want to have to scrape brain fragments from my walls and furniture. I think that scares me alot. I am a lousy shot, I even if a aim for a leg I will probably hit somewhere else. Knives wouldnt work either because I would have to get really close. I could ask for ideas at work but I would really raise alot of eyebrows. Something painful without the flying body parts. Any ideas??:eek:

Hello Marylp, a TASER sounds like the ticket here. There are a lot of lawmen on this site so they most likely will have better advice.
-Sam

Sarge47
12-13-2008, 04:25 PM
I would also suggest Pepper Spray, Mace, or that sort of thing. A squirt gun filled with rubbing alcohol & shot into the eyes will cause 60 minutes of blindness. My family keeps baseball bats at strategic locations & nice, large, dogs help out a bit too.:cool:

tsitenha
12-13-2008, 04:36 PM
marylp, just displaying a weapon of any kind can escalate a situation, not having the intent of using it aside; don't display if you are not going to use it.
If you threaten to use it, but don't it can be used against you, infuriate the aggressor into a more violent action that would normally be used.
Pepper spray indoors can work for and against you (you get it also), be sure no one is asthmatic, tasers could be controlled in your state,
A good, well trained dog (family friendly) is often an excellent deterrent.
You may have to revisit your parameter and conscience?

Sourdough
12-13-2008, 04:51 PM
Hello Marylp, a TASER sounds like the ticket here. There are a lot of lawmen on this site so they most likely will have better advice.
-Sam

Sam, Do you ever wonder about all the Law Enforcement people on here. there are ten times as many Law Enforcement people as Outdoor/Wilderness Guides on this forum. Marylp works for a Police Department. And that is the Members, I wonder how many Federal Agency's are lurking.....?......;)

Sam
12-13-2008, 06:03 PM
Sam, Do you ever wonder about all the Law Enforcement people on here. there are ten times as many Law Enforcement people as Outdoor/Wilderness Guides on this forum. Marylp works for a Police Department. And that is the Members, I wonder how many Federal Agency's are lurking.....?......;)

I did not really notice it. I have noticed that you, Klkak and Jason Montana are the only (I think) wilderness guides on this forum. I wonder about that sometimes.
-Sam

Sourdough
12-13-2008, 06:05 PM
What about Phil....(pgvoutdoors)?

I am retired. I am a was'it.....

SARKY
12-13-2008, 06:38 PM
Pepper spray doesn't work on a percentage of the population (that includes bears), a taser still requires you to be accurate enough to hit the person, a guard dog would be my first line of defense as a determined intruder will be more than willing to eliminate your pooch. Next, I would recommend a 12 gauge shotgun, either a pump or double barrel and get yourself some of the Aguilla mini shot shells in bird shot. These have low recoil and are a short range affair. After all if someone breaks in you want to go to your drfensive position, probably a bedroom, be as far from the door as possible and be able to cover the door with our shotgun. anyone comming through that door without the password is fair game. The chances of killing someone with mini bird shot shells is extremely low and they will certainly think twice about continuing through the door. Make sure you have a cell phone in the room with you to call 911. The other pluss side of these mini shot shells is their lack of penetration on sheet rock walls.

sgtdraino
12-13-2008, 08:13 PM
I want a weapon that will cause alot of fear and pain. But I dont want to have to scrape brain fragments from my walls and furniture. I think that scares me alot. I am a lousy shot, I even if a aim for a leg I will probably hit somewhere else.

Mary, I would recommend a Taser C2:

http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx

It's the civilian version of the Taser, marketed with females specifically in mind. It shocks the target for a full 30 seconds each time you pull the trigger, compared to the mere 5 second shock you get from a law enforcement Taser. It is made for you to hit the target, and potentially leave the Taser while you get away. Taser International will then replace your Taser for free once they get a police report of the incident. Being accurate with a Taser is not hard, it utilizes a laser sight. Just put the red dot on the bad guy, and push the button.

I would also consider a .410 or 20 gauge pump-action shotgun, rather than a 12, which can be a bit much for a female to maneuver and handle effectively. A .410 would also be less likely to leave brains and body parts all over your living room. ;) Attach a small flashlight to the shotgun. This will leave your hands free to see in the dark while holding the weapon, and once again will help you to know where your shot will hit without having to aim with the sights.

Do not try to hit an attacker in the leg with anything. Always aim center mass, it's the easiest part of the body to hit, and also one of the most likely parts to quickly stop the attacker.

crashdive123
12-13-2008, 08:55 PM
Mary - not bad advice so far. I would say though, with what you have shared is to make breaking into your residence as unattractive to somebody as possible. Lights, alarm system, keeping the foliage trimmed back near windows (can't duck behind it). If you make it so that you are not an easy target, most times a potential intruder will move along to an easier target.

SARKY
12-13-2008, 09:26 PM
I have to agree with crashdive here, harden your residence as much as is feasible. dead bolts in the doors, solid exterior doors, bolts on the door going into the floor and top of the door jam. There is also a clear film you can put on the windows (it is used in earthquake country) which even if the window is smashed it won't break in, the film will hold it together.

Sourdough
12-13-2008, 09:45 PM
Mary, your over thinking this whole thing. It appears that the clean-up is the real issue here, and not the instrument for making the mess. Just call me and I'll send my two best Grizzly Bears to clean up the brains, they like brains. they will clean up everything, even the big bones; and lick the place clean. It will be like it never happened, accept from the "Perp's" prespective.........

Our Motto is: Shoot'em and leave'em......... something will Eat'em.......:eek::eek::eek:

RBB
12-13-2008, 09:50 PM
Mary, I would recommend a Taser C2:

http://www.taser.com/products/consumers/Pages/C2.aspx

It's the civilian version of the Taser, marketed with females specifically in mind. It shocks the target for a full 30 seconds each time you pull the trigger, compared to the mere 5 second shock you get from a law enforcement Taser. It is made for you to hit the target, and potentially leave the Taser while you get away. Taser International will then replace your Taser for free once they get a police report of the incident. Being accurate with a Taser is not hard, it utilizes a laser sight. Just put the red dot on the bad guy, and push the button.

.

The best description of being tased that I've heard, so far, is "It's like having a stampeding herd of buffalo loose under your skin."

More info on the civilian taser. While law enforcement tasers give an initial five second tase - followed by as many three second tases as you'd like (plenty of time - ask anyone who's been tased) - the civilian model gives one 90 second tase - allowing you to set down the taser, leave the area, and contact law enforcement.

I can't imagine what it would be like to take a 90 second tase.

wareagle69
12-13-2008, 09:58 PM
well it has been said and i will reiterate it the best way to win a confrontation is to prevent it as has already be covered dogs and home security.
weapons are great if you are well trained in close quarters combat other than that they just give the bad guy more ways to do you harm.
stay in great physical shape. i teach my wife krav maga, jujitsu and muay Thai, for her letting the attacker get close, once he has breached the perimeter, will end up with him in a bad situation she can get me to submit at times but also i have three dogs one of which will defend her to the death which will give her time to get to the safe room

sgtdraino
12-13-2008, 10:04 PM
The best description of being tased that I've heard, so far, is "It's like having a stampeding herd of buffalo loose under your skin."

It is hard to describe. I took the 5 second hit, and it is definitely the most painful thing I have ever experienced. All your muscles lock up so tight, you feel like you're going to snap in two. The taser makes a ticking noise as it discharges, and you can both feel and hear each tic as the volts arc through your body. Very, very painful. Longest 5 seconds in my life. A common misconception is that the Taser knocks you out, or leaves you immobilized for several minutes. Normally as soon as it stops arcing, you will feel normal (perhaps even euphoric), and will be able to move normally. Of course, most people would prefer to just keep laying there and rest for a bit, but a motivated attacker could get up again if he wanted to.


the civilian model gives one 90 second tase - allowing you to set down the taser, leave the area, and contact law enforcement.

Really? I thought the info I read on the Taser site said 30.


I can't imagine what it would be like to take a 90 second tase.

Me neither.

primeelite
12-13-2008, 11:40 PM
In my opinion in a dangerous situation I never mind a gun if it is really that serious of a situation. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. If you are really not wanting to hurt anyone then the taser seems the best option. I guess pepper spray could always be an option but it is not exactly something that an keep your intruder, etc down until the police come.

marylp
12-14-2008, 12:40 AM
A bunch of good advice, but scary just the same. I really like the squirt gun idea tho, sounds like something I could give my 14 year old. Thanks for the bears Hopeak, I'll let you know if I ever need them.!! Thanks everyone, get this true story. I knew a girl many years ago who was in a voilent situation where she was going to get raped. She pretended to become possessed, put on the performance of her life (drama student) and scared the guy off. She claimes he was so scared he went paralized with fear. Only good thing that she ever got from watching the Exorcist, saved her from being raped, possibly even saved her life.

primeelite
12-14-2008, 11:07 AM
Yeah the only thing is if someone is robbing you I don't know if acting possessed would help. At least where I am at it would just give the person more reason to go ahead and shoot you or get rid of you by knocking you out, etc. If people in your area are like that then some acting lessons will be sufficient for defending, if not then I would go with the taser or a 12 gauge shotgun.

tsitenha
12-14-2008, 11:11 AM
marylp, those kinds of experience get written about because they are the stand out exception and would probably work only once.
Squirt guns a notorious for leaking, would it full when you need it?
A more realistic approach would be needed, if you do indeed work for a LEO agency then you can surely find some one there to train you properly.
I remember years ago the concept of just taking it, was the norm, but today women have had enough of it. No one at birth was given a license to hurt you, you have to draw the line on what you will accept.

Sarge47
12-14-2008, 11:24 AM
I bought my wife a light-weight 20 gauge Rossi shotgun with an interchangable
.22 cal. barrel. It's short, light, & can be swung easy. In a nasty situation someone's gonna go down & she says that if she's got anything to say about it it's not going to be her! A clean-up crew can be hired later if there's a mess.:eek:

On another note, I don't think that most of here really relish the idea of ending someone else's life, that's why this would be an action of LAST RESORT! iF YOU DON'T THINK YOU ARE EVER GOING TO USE A FIREARM THEN LEAVE THEM ALONE! They can be taken away & used on you!

That being said, remember; only you can decide which life...or lives...are important to you. If it's "kill or be killed", you or a beloved family member vs. a cold-hearted perp whose goal is to cause great harm to you &/or your family then only you can decide if you're going to allow that; no one else can make that decision for you.:cool:

chiggersngrits
12-14-2008, 10:40 PM
get a can of wasp and hornet spray. they shoot out a stream about 12 to 15 feet. if you get them in the eyes they will be a hurtin. if they keep coming give them another shot this time use your lighter to turn up the heat.

primeelite
12-14-2008, 11:59 PM
Yeah I agree that using a deadly weapon is always the last resort. I just want to be sure that is I walk out there with some wasp spray and he pulls out a pistol that I have some way of dropping him because even partially blind someone with a 9mm with 19 bullets has a great chance of hitting you even being fired wildly. That is I guess why I like the taser idea because it will drop your intruder and allow you to get away or call the police without killing them.

Pict
12-15-2008, 09:24 AM
To legally employ lethal force against an an attacker there have to be three conditions present.

1. Intent: The person has to display the intent to inflict death or grave bodily injury. This intent could be verbal or displayed in his actions.

2. Ability: The person has to have the means to inflict death or grave bodily injury. This could be a weapon of some sort but also could be a "disparity of force", two unarmed attackers against one victim, or a large man against a woman, etc.

3. Proximity: The person has to be close enough to use the means he has to carry out the intent to cause death or grave bodily injury.

So basically what you are saying is that given an attacker who has the intent, ability, and proximity to either kill or main you and your family that you would intentionally limit your response to spare permanent injury to him. That will only work inthe real world under two conditions.

1. You are very well prepared to walk that tightrope and have the advantage of surprise.

2. That you are mentally prepared to see death and or grave bodily injury inflicted on yourself or your family.

You do not have the luxury of choosing the number, motives, and manner of your attacker. I would suggest getting a book on crime scene investigation and taking a good hard look.

Non-lethal options are a great fall back option if you have the time. They can turn the tables on a threatening situation. They are woefully inadequate to deal with actual violence once it has begun. Mac

primeelite
12-15-2008, 02:28 PM
Yeah please do not use the squirt gun idea. What if your attacker(s) is wearing glasses and it doesn't go through or you just can't seem to hit the attacker(s) directly in the eyes. If anything you may hit them and they would be more enraged to hurt you instead of just steal something and get away. Most states have the castle doctrine I believe it is where you have the right to defend your home and property with lethal force. If you are wanting non-lethal than a taser could work but like Pict says you do not know the number of attackers and taser could get one but then you are on your own with no backup. If you have some type of firearm more than likely you have at least 5 rounds to defend yourself.

Pict
12-15-2008, 03:05 PM
I don't mean to come down on you over this one but I have spent the last ten years of my life in a very violent place.

If you look at how police use the non-lethal means to take people down they are almost always in the context of the suspect being held at bay by other officers employing the threat of lethal force. Tasers and beanbag rounds are something police call for after the suspect has been cornered by other officers with guns. They are used when there is time to take a step down from the lethal force option already on the table.

Pepper spray is used by police as a means of control that will prevent a suspect from further escalating the situation to a lethal force encounter. The spray comes out when a person is getting further out of control and won't respond to verbal commands. It makes a person less effective at resisting the ensuing dogpile.

If you are really committed to the idea of non-lethal means then get yourself the brightest and most expensive tactical flashlight you can find. There are lights out there that will put out 300+ lumens, like staring into a flashbulb constantly lit. There are no laws concerning carrying such a light and at night it will nearly blind an attacker for a limited amount of time. You cannot be prosecuted for obnoxiously shining a light in the face of someone who approached you in the dark, at home or in the street. If approached by someone suspicious and you light them up several things happen; you get a really good look at them, they know you got a really good look at them, they can't see jack anymore, and you have the upper hand for fight or flight. Mac

Sarge47
12-15-2008, 06:01 PM
I don't mean to come down on you over this one but I have spent the last ten years of my life in a very violent place.

If you look at how police use the non-lethal means to take people down they are almost always in the context of the suspect being held at bay by other officers employing the threat of lethal force. Tasers and beanbag rounds are something police call for after the suspect has been cornered by other officers with guns. They are used when there is time to take a step down from the lethal force option already on the table.

Pepper spray is used by police as a means of control that will prevent a suspect from further escalating the situation to a lethal force encounter. The spray comes out when a person is getting further out of control and won't respond to verbal commands. It makes a person less effective at resisting the ensuing dogpile.

If you are really committed to the idea of non-lethal means then get yourself the brightest and most expensive tactical flashlight you can find. There are lights out there that will put out 300+ lumens, like staring into a flashbulb constantly lit. There are no laws concerning carrying such a light and at night it will nearly blind an attacker for a limited amount of time. You cannot be prosecuted for obnoxiously shining a light in the face of someone who approached you in the dark, at home or in the street. If approached by someone suspicious and you light them up several things happen; you get a really good look at them, they know you got a really good look at them, they can't see jack anymore, and you have the upper hand for fight or flight. Mac
I agree, Pict. Also, the right kind of flashlight can make a great club! :eek:
I don't know about the "squirt gun with rubbing alcohol, I've never used it. I
personally have had extensive training with handguns, rifles, pistols, & certain forms of martial arts. Remy makes a great case as he lives in L.A. & that is a really tough place to be. What ever you decide, in the end, will be your decision; good luck!:cool:

pkroell
12-15-2008, 06:12 PM
One of the finest self defence weapons ever created is called rock salt. It usually does not kill but it will make a believer out of the person you shoot. It turns a 12 ga. into a mega weapon.It is perfect inside your home and does no damage to speak of to anything inside but it sure stings real good. I know this from personal experience of many years ago in a watermelon field. Trust me it works better than anything else. The surprise on their face when you hit them with it is proceless. Good Luck

Ole WV Coot
12-15-2008, 07:10 PM
If anyone breaks into the house I consider him bought and paid for. Castle Doctrine law kicks in when I pull the trigger of the 12ga. Cleanup would be the last thought and I merely need to fear for my life or my family to pull the trigger. I have most things covered, alarm, motion detector, lights plus I don't need to worry about any family in another room.

Jericho117
12-15-2008, 08:25 PM
Tasers, one of those updated dart guns, shoot, move in and knock them out or something.

trax
12-15-2008, 11:29 PM
marylp, seriously? Nope...get a shotgun and contend with the mess after. You're talking about only in a life-threatening situation? Well, your life's being threatened what can I say? You don't have to be that good of a shot with a shotgun either. And I am not recommending people run around pointing shotguns and shooting each other or themselves accidentally. My understanding is she's asking about being in a life-threatening situation. If your kid's life is in danger does the mess on the walls after really matter? I think not.

I once attended a martial arts class and one of the students complained to the teacher that she thought what we were being taught was too violent. His response was to ask her if she thought her attacker would feel the same way about what he used on the attack.

trax
12-15-2008, 11:37 PM
I did not really notice it. I have noticed that you, Klkak and Jason Montana are the only (I think) wilderness guides on this forum. I wonder about that sometimes.
-Sam

There's a couple of others.

primeelite
12-16-2008, 09:06 AM
I agree with you guys. Nobody wants to take another mans life but if someone breaks into my house and is coming after my family I have no problem taking theirs. I think there may be times when you can use non-lethal defense but I do not think in the situation of someone breaking into your home would be one of those.

OhioHillbilly
12-16-2008, 04:20 PM
A 410 shotgun should be less messy. The "mess" would really be the least of my concerns. I'd just as soon clean up a dead bad guy than lose a family member.

Stairman
12-16-2008, 08:34 PM
A porch light on,a fenced yard barking dog[even a lap dog]and a locked door is a good deterent.If they come on in anyway then its buckshot.And I would be sure to kill them so they dont come back later for revenge or a lawsuit.New carpet and paneling is cheaper than my life.A few well seen signs saying no trespassing and no soliciting will keep the church folks or vacuum salesman safe.