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View Full Version : Types of alternate power for the home?



doug1980
12-12-2008, 02:13 PM
Ok so here goes. I am looking at buying some land here in AK to build a small cabin on, however it would need to be self-sufficient. It would be a small place, around 1,000 sq/ft. Pretty basic with lights, refrigerator, gas stove gas heat, gas water heater. My question is how well does solar power work, expecially up here since the winter has very little sunlight. Or instead of solar power what type of generator would work for this application?

Sourdough
12-12-2008, 02:28 PM
Depends on two things......One is location......the other is money. I have two creeks and for about $10,000.-- I can have Hydroelectric power. The problem is most systems that work are to expensive. And the maintenance is high. Fixing something at 60* above is somewhat different than -37* below.

All said and done most people end up with Diesel Generators.

The nice thing about Alaska is you can be very remote, and still have commercial power. I have never understood why people consider Commercial Electric Evil.

wareagle69
12-12-2008, 03:11 PM
i personally would not go with gas anything you want to be remote correct? well think of delivery charges for about 30,000 dolars you can set yourself up really well with solar and wind then not worry about a bill again yes there are some maintanace costs but like i said if you are remote delivery will be sporadic, i would go with solar with a wood heat back up a wood stove and/or a wood stove/cook stove combination

Sourdough
12-12-2008, 03:52 PM
He has not even started to research the cost of building on the remote building site. When he starts to realize he is looking at $175.00 to $200.00 per sq. ft. cost. And the little 1,000 S.F. cabin will cost $175,000.00 just for the structure, and another $75,000.00 for some "NON"-SWAMP land. Please Note: this does not include anything but the most basic wood stove. No solar, No wind, No hydro. It takes a lot of money to live for FREE in the wilderness. One of the villages is dealing with stove oil at $ 7.85 Gal. Now burn 10 gal. per day on heat and electric (8 hours only) and you are at $28,900.00

Think about it....If it was Easy and Cheap and Fun, why ain't everybody doing it. It is hard work, and takes a lot of up front cash.

wildWoman
12-12-2008, 04:00 PM
A combination of solar and wind works best, or if you're lucky like hopeak, hydro.
You should look first and foremost at what you really "need" power for. I lived for 7 years with zip electricity and did just fine.
IMO, you don't need a fridge, there are other ways to keep groceries cool in the north. As WE mentioned, propane is not the single best option for off-grid living. I'd stick a half-decent wood stove in there with a flat top, so you can cook on it in the winter. If it's just a weekend place, a 2 burner Coleman propane stove (one of those camping thingies) is all you need. Lights you only need in the winter anyway. You can run a lot of things off a 12V battery (recharge in your car). IMO water heaters are a waste of money, why not heat the water on the stove?
There are lots of options, the best way to get knowledgeable is to befriend some weird people in out of the way places and see what they do. You can spend heaps of money or do it it all on very, very little - entirely depends on what you need for your happiness :)

wildWoman
12-12-2008, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=hopeak;87322]He has not even started to research the cost of building on the remote building site. When he starts to realize he is looking at $175.00 to $200.00 per sq. ft. cost. And the little 1,000 S.F. cabin will cost $175,000.00 just for the structure, and another $75,000.00 for some "NON"-SWAMP land.[QUOTE]

Yes, 1,000sqft is definitely a house and not a little cabin...but if people are willing and able to haul their own logs and cut boards themselves, or use a building method like cordwood, the cost will be just a small fraction of that.
Again, it's a personal choice that people make...for some reason, most want to end up living in a rustic on the outside and city-like on the inside house. I really don't know why.

doug1980
12-12-2008, 04:09 PM
He has not even started to research the cost of building on the remote building site. When he starts to realize he is looking at $175.00 to $200.00 per sq. ft. cost. And the little 1,000 S.F. cabin will cost $175,000.00 just for the structure, and another $75,000.00 for some "NON"-SWAMP land. Please Note: this does not include anything but the most basic wood stove. No solar, No wind, No hydro. It takes a lot of money to live for FREE in the wilderness. One of the villages is dealing with stove oil at $ 7.85 Gal. Now burn 10 gal. per day on heat and electric (8 hours only) and you are at $28,900.00

Think about it....If it was Easy and Cheap and Fun, why ain't everybody doing it. It is hard work, and takes a lot of up front cash.

Wow didn't know you knew me so well. I could of swore I have done my research on this, hummm maybe not. Thanks for the advise everyone. Most of you were very helpfull.

bulrush
12-12-2008, 04:29 PM
Did you say solar in Alaska?? Solar doesn't even work in Michigan winters, much less Alaska, due to the angle of the sun during that season. Should work fine in summer, Michigan or Alaska. However solar is VERY expensive. You must buy new batteries every 4-5 years, and that costs at least $5000 each time. So figure on saving $1000 per year JUST for batteries.

That doesn't count the cost of cracked solar panels (fixing the topmost cover pane or replacing a damaged panel) from ice and animal damage.

I've researched this for my Michigan home and done some testing of solar devices in the winter in Michigan. I couldn't even charge a solar flashlight in winter by leaving it in a south window for 10 days.

If you can haul 20lb propane canisters up there yourself every chance you get, that might be a good deal. You can use propane for light, heat, hot water, and boiling drinkable water. If not, a generator might be the best bet. What about getting a bigger propane canister up there? Is it possible? Is it legal? Is it doable? Would you drive or fly?

Sourdough
12-12-2008, 04:30 PM
I think this is my 7th year cooking every day on a Coleman camp 3-burner stove.

doug1980
12-12-2008, 04:39 PM
Yes, I am sure you know much more than I do....sorry I tried to help.

No I didn't say that. I asked a question and you basically called me stupid. Do you know how much money I have? Do you know what location of Ak I'm looking at? Do you even know me? I didn't ask you to assume that this idea popped in my head over night. I have researched and was looking at alternatives and ideas.

wareagle69
12-12-2008, 05:38 PM
hey bulrush have you looked at wind generation? solar works well in the sumer yes but good winds will work for the winter i have tested my area of course only been here a year going on my second winter will average out over 5 years and make my desion but in the long run i still think it is a great option

Sourdough
12-12-2008, 06:15 PM
Would someone explain what is wrong with being on the commercial power grid.....? Having back up systems, I understand. I have (5) Five standby generators, and four work. My cabin has an extension cord running off a temporary power pole. My monthly cost is $12.85 for electric, refrigerator, one light bulb, radio, and computer. I think that is a screaming deal. Basic local Phone and Internet is $64.55 per month, and I think that is outrageous. The power was out for 8 hours Tuesday snow laden tree on line, I ran the generator only 5 hours and used 4 gal. of fuel @ $3.50 each. that cost more than a whole month of electric. And if you prepay a one year estimated bill you get $25.00 free electric. So I get two months free.

So really other than some amount of semi-dependency (Co-dependency) what is wrong with commercial electric.....? I just think it is wonderful to live in the wilderness and not have smelly loud generator running. I had a Winco wind charger and it made a lot of noise.

trax
12-12-2008, 06:21 PM
If you can get Gilligan and a bicycle....

doug1980
12-12-2008, 06:22 PM
Well I have to admit I would rather have city utilities expecially water. I hate well water. I guess what I was getting at is in the event those utilities were cut off for whatever reason I would need a back-up. Not for long continuous use just to get by and still be self-sufficient. I would take city utilities any day. I also heard that if you have city utilities and some solar type or wind type of your own that the utility company will pay you for any extra energy your system produces.

AKS
12-12-2008, 11:22 PM
Well I have to admit I would rather have city utilities expecially water. I hate well water. I guess what I was getting at is in the event those utilities were cut off for whatever reason I would need a back-up. Not for long continuous use just to get by and still be self-sufficient. I would take city utilities any day. I also heard that if you have city utilities and some solar type or wind type of your own that the utility company will pay you for any extra energy your system produces.


Take it easy. Hopeak calls everybody stupid. Besides, like you say, he doesn't know you, your finances or what prep/research you accomplished. That last post of yours cleared up a few things that would have eliminated the need for a few of the replies. If you are just looking for a back up to commercial power you might want to get a small generator, it isn't effected much by sunlight or temperature. Like bulrush said, solar would work fine in the summer but wouldn't work at all in the winter with that whole 4hours of almost daylight you'll be getting. Same with hydro, ice doesn't normally move fast enough to spin the generator. You would have to have strong winds and huge power producing windmills to sell wind power back to the grid depending on what you were powering in the house and if they will take it. You will have to find out if they will allow you to back feed the system since that is dangerous for the workers during an outage.

My dads place in eagle river has a generator with a double throw switch so his house can get power from the generator or the grid but not both. I don't know what your specialty is but you should consult an expert before you hook up to the grid (if they allow that) to prevent damage to your equipment What ever you end up choosing, good luck!

Badawg
12-13-2008, 01:20 AM
Here is a fairly low cost solution I have seen in action:

http://www.helixwind.com/en/

I'm Biased, a friend designed it. The important thing is that it provides good juice at very low winds and self feathers in hi winds and still generates! I am planning one for my property next year.

SARKY
12-13-2008, 03:29 AM
Check out a company called Konarka, they are making a photovotaic cell that is in thin plastic rolls. The cells use an ink instead of silicon wafers, different inks absorb different wave lengths of light so the system is very efficient. these photovotaic cells could be printed on anything including roofing tiles. There is also a very efficient wind system available (i'll need to dig out the info), it is helical in design and doesn't need a lot of wind to turn plus the design doesn't allow it to spin so fast as to tear itself apart. With either or both of these systems it will depend on the natural conditions of the property you use them on.

crashdive123
12-13-2008, 08:36 AM
Sarky - the turbine you are describing sounds like the one that Badawg posted a link to.

SARKY
12-13-2008, 03:40 PM
I checked out the link and it is very similar to the one i'm talking about but not the exact same one. The one I am talking about can be positioned either vertically or horizontally and the the design is self limiting (speed wise)

wildWoman
12-13-2008, 05:30 PM
Did you say solar in Alaska?? Solar doesn't even work in Michigan winters, much less Alaska, due to the angle of the sun during that season. Should work fine in summer, Michigan or Alaska. However solar is VERY expensive. You must buy new batteries every 4-5 years, and that costs at least $5000 each time. So figure on saving $1000 per year JUST for batteries.

That doesn't count the cost of cracked solar panels (fixing the topmost cover pane or replacing a damaged panel) from ice and animal damage.

I've researched this for my Michigan home and done some testing of solar devices in the winter in Michigan. I couldn't even charge a solar flashlight in winter by leaving it in a south window for 10 days.

If you can haul 20lb propane canisters up there yourself every chance you get, that might be a good deal. You can use propane for light, heat, hot water, and boiling drinkable water. If not, a generator might be the best bet. What about getting a bigger propane canister up there? Is it possible? Is it legal? Is it doable? Would you drive or fly?

Acutally, solar works fine for us in the Yukon from early February until late September. The snow reflects a lot of light. We haven't had the panel crack either; if installed in a place and way that nothing can bang against it or drip on it, it's not a problem in my experience. But you're right about the batteries needing to be replaced and needing wind or a different energy source in the winter.
Again, the less one is urged to plug in, the cheaper all around.

wildWoman
12-13-2008, 05:36 PM
Would someone explain what is wrong with being on the commercial power grid.....? Having back up systems, I understand. I have (5) Five standby generators, and four work. My cabin has an extension cord running off a temporary power pole. My monthly cost is $12.85 for electric, refrigerator, one light bulb, radio, and computer. I think that is a screaming deal. Basic local Phone and Internet is $64.55 per month, and I think that is outrageous. The power was out for 8 hours Tuesday snow laden tree on line, I ran the generator only 5 hours and used 4 gal. of fuel @ $3.50 each. that cost more than a whole month of electric. And if you prepay a one year estimated bill you get $25.00 free electric. So I get two months free.

So really other than some amount of semi-dependency (Co-dependency) what is wrong with commercial electric.....? I just think it is wonderful to live in the wilderness and not have smelly loud generator running. I had a Winco wind charger and it made a lot of noise.

Well I guess this thread is discussing living "remotely", which might mean being located on some dirt track where there is no electricity hook-up, or without road access, so no connection to the grid either. In Canada, it costs I think about $10,000 to extend the exsiting power lines for one more kilometer, so if you're 5km from where the grid ends, it's fairly simple mathematics. Even if you have a long driveway, your own alternative system might end up being cheaper than getting hooked up.

Sourdough
12-13-2008, 05:51 PM
Well I guess this thread is discussing living "remotely", which might mean being located on some dirt track where there is no electricity hook-up, or without road access, so no connection to the grid either. In Canada, it costs I think about $10,000 to extend the exsiting power lines for one more kilometer, so if you're 5km from where the grid ends, it's fairly simple mathematics. Even if you have a long driveway, your own alternative system might end up being cheaper than getting hooked up.


No....I think it is more than that. It is almost as if the grid is some kind of evil thing. I know they think of the grid like they think of employment, they want to be retired young, be free of the chain of work, and bills. It is more along those lines. And maybe people just don't know, why..... You and I have lived off grid for years (I am not now, but have). We know what that entails. But you hear people talk about it like it is achieving Nirvana.

backtobasics
12-13-2008, 06:22 PM
No....I think it is more than that. It is almost as if the grid is some kind of evil thing. I know they think of the grid like they think of employment, they want to be retired young, be free of the chain of work, and bills. It is more along those lines. And maybe people just don't know, why..... You and I have lived off grid for years (I am not now, but have). We know what that entails. But you hear people talk about it like it is achieving Nirvana.


If you have access to electricity and use small amount like yourself it is very convenient, but around here it seems like either you have it or you don't. I've only lived one way or the other. Maybe its like a drug, a person gets a little and then they want more until its out of control and your totally dependent. Also I would think that if you were building your own place one could restrict themselves from having to much, but if you move into a place that is on the grid one may become so dependent that its hard to kick the habit and spend all the money involved to make the change in a 3 bedroom house with kids an wife. Basicly i think people don't like being under someones thumb, but if its that bad then they need to make the change. A person does not need to leave town to get off the grid, just unplug. Sorry I guess I'm rambling

wildWoman
12-13-2008, 06:29 PM
Maybe time for someone to start a GA group - "Gridders Anonymous". "Hi, my name is Joe Blow, and I'm addicted to power." - Ha, something to help all those eggheads in government!!!

Sourdough
12-13-2008, 06:32 PM
Is that you Bragg, just kidding, just kidding...............;);):););)

crashdive123
01-02-2009, 11:31 PM
Sarge - Move to General Survival Discussion