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Sourdough
11-20-2008, 08:54 PM
It is 3:45 and still light and there was just the Blackest wolf I have ever seen right at the door. I am stunned.

nell67
11-20-2008, 09:00 PM
Bet it was beautiful,wasn't it hopeak.

Sourdough
11-20-2008, 09:00 PM
He is back again, he was trying to get the turkeys, the dogs are going crazy, I am stunned in daylight, He is somewhat of a runt, but very black.

klkak
11-20-2008, 09:05 PM
Hope you need to kill it! if you can. It is probably an outcast or sick or both. Either way it is dangerous. A healthy wolf should not have come that close in. Please be careful!!!!!!

red lake
11-20-2008, 09:09 PM
Still light at 345?

Either way get the darn camera and get some pics!

Sourdough
11-20-2008, 09:18 PM
Bet it was beautiful,wasn't it hopeak.


It is the only Beautiful wolf I have ever seen, I really don't like wolves, but he was 8 feet away, I had the rifle, and I was mesmerized by how black, and classic wolf he was, hunched down, tail down, crawling along the wood pile. The geese were crazy, he chased them half heartedly, He was young adult, nice heavy coat, but small. Yes, he was beautiful. I shot wolves back in the 70's. But I could not shoot him. Not this time, he was so classic and 8 feet away.

nell67
11-20-2008, 09:28 PM
If he is sick though hope,do what you must,beautiful or not,you are more valuable than he, I love wolves,but 1 sick wolf can lead to many more sick wolves,the danger is too big a risk.

Sourdough
11-20-2008, 09:41 PM
He is not sick, he is just out on the hunt. I think he was about 75# maybe 85# and about half adult size. I spend a lot of time studing myself, and how I react. I could not shoot him at 8 feet. But if I saw him at 100 or 200 yards I would not have thought about it. I expect he will be back after dark, for turkey dinner.

DOGMAN
11-20-2008, 10:14 PM
I think you should try to capture him, then domesticate him. Then you should adopt a young boy, and he and the wolf could become best friends. You, then write a book about the experience. Then Walt Disney could make a movie about you all and you could become rich and famous.

crashdive123
11-20-2008, 10:15 PM
Everybody wants to be an agent.:D

trax
11-20-2008, 10:17 PM
I think you should try to capture him, then domesticate him. Then you should adopt a young boy, and he and the wolf could become best friends. You, then write a book about the experience. Then Walt Disney could make a movie about you all and you could become rich and famous.

sarcasm jason? really? at this stage....tsk tsk. I am actually quite proud of you and the entire scenario you just described:D He probably is outcast tho' hope, whether because of sickness or not is not for me to determine, but I'm sure you're 100% correct on one thing....he'll be back.

wildWoman
11-20-2008, 10:37 PM
Tell him "hi" from me. I wouldn't go into hysterics over it either. Surely you've got a set-up for your turkeys and what not that will keep critters out. I'd just keep an eye on the dogs and if the wolf keeps hanging around and it gets to be a problem, shoo him away (the old shooting into the air or just behind it).

Runs With Beer
11-20-2008, 11:23 PM
Well we dont have Wolves here, But me and my WIFE have seen a coyte 2 days in a row at the same place same time, is that something to think about?

Sourdough
11-20-2008, 11:43 PM
Hope you need to kill it! if you can. It is probably an outcast or sick or both. Either way it is dangerous. A healthy wolf should not have come that close in. Please be careful!!!!!!

We don't have packs around here One to three would be normal, with One being the most common. But you raise a good point, maybe rabid...? Strange to come that close. But I think just inexperienced about humans, and farm animals.

Klkak, do you wear gloves (Latex) when working the catch. I shot a rabid Red Fox when I was about 11 years old, I wanted to save the mangy near hairless hide, but my dad made me bury it. And move it with a pitch fork.

Does anyone know lot about rabies, other than the great movie, was it called "Rage" with Glenn Ford. I know the rabies shots are painful and I think there are a series of 20 shots.

tsitenha
11-20-2008, 11:51 PM
Rabies shot are no longer painful, my nephews had a series of injections when they handled a dead rabid skunk.

hopeak, maybe the wolf was there to tell you something,
when they have no fear like this and otherwise aren't behaving oddly, sometimes they are messengers.
other than "he chased them half heartedly" wolf can't suppress all its nature.

klkak
11-21-2008, 12:25 AM
Klkak, do you wear gloves (Latex) when working the catch. I shot a rabid Red Fox when I was about 11 years old, I wanted to save the mangy near hairless hide, but my dad made me bury it. And move it with a pitch fork.

Yes I wear Nitrile gloves when handling fur animals. Come to think of it I use the gloves when handling any wild animal.

Sourdough
11-21-2008, 01:47 AM
Rabies shot are no longer painful, my nephews had a series of injections when they handled a dead rabid skunk.

hopeak, maybe the wolf was there to tell you something,
when they have no fear like this and otherwise aren't behaving oddly, sometimes they are messengers.
other than "he chased them half heartedly" wolf can't suppress all its nature.


That allready happened in New Zealand, and let's just say few people can get their head wrapped around that. Including me, and it happened to me, and I'll never understand it.

wareagle69
11-21-2008, 09:29 AM
strange but true hopeak, i had a dream the other morning that i went to alaska to visit you and klak must have been my spirit in that wolf thanks for not shooting

rebel
11-21-2008, 09:54 AM
That allready happened in New Zealand, and let's just say few people can get their head wrapped around that. Including me, and it happened to me, and I'll never understand it.

strange but true hopeak, i had a dream the other morning that i went to alaska to visit you and klak must have been my spirit in that wolf thanks for not shooting


I would like to hear more. Was this willed or involuntary?

Sourdough
11-21-2008, 10:03 AM
Rebel, not clear what you are asking, or whom you are asking......?

rebel
11-21-2008, 10:13 AM
It was a question to either Hopeak and /or WE69. The idea perked my interest because I'm unfamiliar with it. I was asking for a little more information. I'll probably have some questions like History, location, relevance to stage in life. If you don't want to talk about it that's cool too.

Ole WV Coot
11-21-2008, 10:16 AM
I would never try to give you advice about a wolf, you know more about them than I ever will. Rabies gettin' bad all over and that's the big thing but I would have enjoyed watching from a nice safe position. Small game especially skunks are bad around here and I have to keep a close eye on the dog since he is dumber than a sled track.

trax
11-21-2008, 10:19 AM
I have to keep a close eye on the dog since he is dumber than a sled track.

....Remember when we were all trying to do Cootisms? Man, ya can't touch that, dumber than a sled track, you either have the gift or not, and Pops definitely has that. I have to tell someone that today. It'll probably be the same person I call a starstruck bushwhacker, I'm still using that. This place has prose I tell ya

Sourdough
11-21-2008, 10:19 AM
It was a question to either Hopeak and /or WE69. The idea perked my interest because I'm unfamiliar with it. I was asking for a little more information. I'll probably have some questions like History, location, relevance to stage in life. If you don't want to talk about it that's cool too.

It is in a thread about sensory awareness about two weeks ago.

rebel
11-21-2008, 10:41 AM
It is in a thread about sensory awareness about two weeks ago.

I just finished reading the thread. Thanks and that answered my questions.

Fletcher
11-21-2008, 04:59 PM
He may have been a scout. Looking around and will be back with freinds. You should
have shot him! If he is tring to get your turkeys...........you have the right to shoot
first then go ask him what he's doing.

tsitenha
11-21-2008, 05:03 PM
Years ago in the we hours of the morning, I was setting up for a deer hunt. I had walked in some distance, set up my blind and was waiting for the sunrise, in the full moon that crested a knoll I saw a wolf sitting there examining the same game trail that I was set up for. He was huge, silvery with black frosting on the tip of his fur and a thick "mane". The older men in this camp had a shoot all wolves rule and I was supposed to shoot one if I saw one, in this case I couldn't for personal reasons even I had the wolf bracketed and silhouetted. Later I got a deer and I never told anyone about my meeting with this wolf.
Jump ahead 1 month to the next full moon:
6am walking out to my truck getting ready to go to work,
on the opposite side of the road I saw from the corner of my eye a local german shepard known as Baron, was surprised that he was out so early on such a cold windy morn; then it hit me Baron was given to a distant relative of his owners to work on their farm so I turned to take a closer look.
That's when I realized that this animal was very much like the wolf I had seen that morning a month ago. We stared at each other for a bit, and the need to go to work overcame me, I started the truck, backed out of the yard and saw the wolf slowly walk away to the east;
now comes the eerie part, I watched him walk off and something was not quite right so I backed up the truck and came 90deg to the trail...
There was none.... in a foot of snow not a paw print, drag mark; I got out of the truck walked over and verified for my one self...nada, zip, zilch, nothing.
Later while talking to my sister I told her of this and she said the 2nd "wolf" I saw was a "Spirit Wolf" sent to give me a message apart from that of thanking for not shooting the first wolf I had seen the month before.
These 2 events were hundreds of miles apart.

Sourdough
11-21-2008, 05:18 PM
I just finished reading the thread. Thanks and that answered my questions.

There is more to that event, but it is way over the top, of graspable.

dbldrew
11-21-2008, 07:58 PM
Base your decision based on what happens in nature, if another predator enters your territory then the simple solution is to defend your territory, drive him off and if that doesn’t work then show him why Humans are on the top of the food chain. Problem solved…

tsitenha
11-21-2008, 08:07 PM
Humans on the top of the food chain, wow what a load.
Wolf stays in "nature" all his life see how long you'd last.

crashdive123
11-21-2008, 08:10 PM
We are all in nature so to speak. It's just that some of our huts and shelters have evolved just a bit.:D;)

wareagle69
11-21-2008, 09:00 PM
tsitenha- i a way we are top of the food chain we do not bring a level playing field though when we go out into his turf we bring our technologies with us that makes us superior.
dbldrew- if we are the top of the food chain then why do we fear them so much? sure you feel safe in your home but this forum is full of evidence ofpeople fearing bears and puma and wolves whyif we are so superior? because when we go out into the bush we have only our guns what happens when we do not have those? then who is superior?

Rick
11-21-2008, 09:01 PM
Hope, just curious, did you talk to him? I would probably have said a word or two. But that's just me. Probably would have talked to him like another human.

Rick
11-21-2008, 09:09 PM
Hope, you might be interested in this article:

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF2/256.html

Sourdough
11-21-2008, 09:14 PM
Hope, just curious, did you talk to him? I would probably have said a word or two. But that's just me. Probably would have talked to him like another human.

Nope.......no conversation, Not this time.

Rick
11-21-2008, 09:17 PM
I talk to all many of critters that wander around the house and when I'm in the woods. Sometimes they are polite enough to talk back. Sometimes they just look at me funny (same way most people do).:p

wareagle69
11-21-2008, 09:18 PM
ya me too rick would have said helo brother what do you have to teach me today

dbldrew
11-21-2008, 09:20 PM
Humans on the top of the food chain, wow what a load.
Wolf stays in "nature" all his life see how long you'd last.


Absolutely we are on top of the food chain, if its one thing Humans are good at is killing. Just out of curiosity what animal would you put above Humans? I bet what ever it is you could probably find it in a zoo, or on the edge of extinction. Are Humans territories shrinking, being pushed back by all of the other predators that are higher up then us on the food chain? Nope we are the ones forcing them back.

As impressive a lion or tiger physical prowess is as a predator, that is dwarfed by our brains. The weapons we can make cancel out our physical inferiority, for god sakes we have weapons that could wipe out the whole world, we are so far above any other creature on the food chain it’s scary, very scary.

Here is a simple question, could wolves hunt humans to extinction? No. But could Humans hunt wolves to extinction? Easily (almost happened) Now replace the wolves with any other predator you can think of and the answer will always come out the same. The only reason we don’t hunt a specific creature to extinction is because of Humans desire not to, not because we cant.

Rick
11-21-2008, 09:21 PM
Exactly. I've even been known to sit down and spend time with them. Might talk, might not. Just sit there and enjoy their presence. Did that with a deer one time. By the time I saw her she was on alert. Probably heard and/or smelled me coming. I just slowly sat down and didn't say anything. She finally decided I wasn't a threat and went back to nibbling grass. I sat like that for maybe 10 minutes before she decided to move on. Made my day.

wareagle69
11-21-2008, 09:24 PM
Absolutely we are on top of the food chain, if its one thing Humans are good at is killing. Just out of curiosity what animal would you put above Humans? I bet what ever it is you could probably find it in a zoo, or on the edge of extinction. Are Humans territories shrinking, being pushed back by all of the other predators that are higher up then us on the food chain? Nope we are the ones forcing them back.

As impressive a lion or tiger physical prowess is as a predator, that is dwarfed by our brains. The weapons we can make cancel out our physical inferiority, for god sakes we have weapons that could wipe out the whole world, we are so far above any other creature on the food chain it’s scary, very scary.

Here is a simple question, could wolves hunt humans to extinction? No. But could Humans hunt wolves to extinction? Easily (almost happened) Now replace the wolves with any other predator you can think of and the answer will always come out the same. The only reason we don’t hunt a specific creature to extinction is because of Humans desire not to, not because we cant.

did you read my post to the two fo you? read and respond please

Rick
11-21-2008, 09:24 PM
dbldrew - I understand what you are saying, but yeah, human territories are shrinking. We're doing to ourselves. We doing it to every piece of life on this planet. Ironic that such a smart life form can be so danged stupid.

EDIT: My Exactly was to you WE. dbldrew happened to post just before I did.

wareagle69
11-21-2008, 09:32 PM
dbldrew - I understand what you are saying, but yeah, human territories are shrinking. We're doing to ourselves. We doing it to every piece of life on this planet. Ironic that such a smart life form can be so danged stupid.

EDIT: My Exactly was to you WE. dbldrew happened to post just before I did.

i figured as much just rick

dbldrew
11-21-2008, 09:39 PM
dbldrew- if we are the top of the food chain then why do we fear them so much? sure you feel safe in your home but this forum is full of evidence ofpeople fearing bears and puma and wolves whyif we are so superior? because when we go out into the bush we have only our guns what happens when we do not have those? then who is superior?

Well fear is a funny thing it might be an instinctual response based on where we measured up say 1000 years ago. Back then we might not of been that high up on the food chain or it would have been a closer fight. Who knows how long evolution would take to change that kind of fear, if it ever would.

But why do bears fear us? The majority of bear encounters the bear will move off. So why? Physically speaking we are no match for a bear, and the bear knows it. So why do they fear us? Why are most animals fearful of Humans?

wareagle69
11-21-2008, 09:56 PM
true enough in todays society but you never know what the future holds

DOGMAN
11-21-2008, 09:59 PM
Well fear is a funny thing it might be an instinctual response based on where we measured up say 1000 years ago. Back then we might not of been that high up on the food chain or it would have been a closer fight. Who knows how long evolution would take to change that kind of fear, if it ever would.

But why do bears fear us? The majority of bear encounters the bear will move off. So why? Physically speaking we are no match for a bear, and the bear knows it. So why do they fear us? Why are most animals fearful of Humans?

Guns. Thats why. Read the journals of Lewis and Clark. Those bears had never encountered firearms before, and they reaked havoc on the men of the expediton. In Fact in the journals they say it wont be Indians that will inhibit settlement of the west, it'll be Grizzlies.

Most scholars of the western frontier say that if it wasn't for the invention of the repeating firearm, the west wouldn't have been tamed due to Grizzlies being able to keep charging even after taking 9-10 musket balls!

Lastly, Grizzly bears in Yellowstone National Park, are much more aggressive towards humans than are bears in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area, 200 miles to the North. Supposedly the reason is Grizzlies in YNP have never been harassed by people with firearms. But, the Bob Marshall is heavily hunted, and hunters routinely shoot over the Grizzlies to scare them...it works.

wareagle69
11-21-2008, 10:01 PM
did you know more people have been killed by bison that griz in yellowstone?

DOGMAN
11-21-2008, 10:08 PM
I think lightning and drownings have killed even more people than Bison.

tsitenha
11-22-2008, 12:56 AM
dbldrew,

I bet what ever it is you could probably find it in a zoo
There are all kinds of zoos full of... MEN "Folsom" etc...
Is that your measure or is it the ability to kill?
What about deadly influenza, millions have expired?
Ebola is much deadlier than man therefore on top?
Man (in general) is afraid of nature, afraid of the night, animals just accept it. Forums such as these shows us that only a small percentage do in fact thread the wilderness paths not in superiority but in equality.
I think your top of the food chain is like a house of cards just waiting for the slightest shift...
As far as "The majority of bear encounters the bear will move off."
grizzlies wouldn't... are they the top? ask hopeak he's a bit closer than most of us.
choose to believe what you want


I got the quote to work, if I could only figure out exactly what I did :)

tsitenha
11-22-2008, 01:10 AM
WE, I understand what you mean, our "tools" gives us an equilibrium in interacting with nature but to assume that this makes us superior in just asking for a reality shock.

tsitenha
11-22-2008, 01:17 AM
When in nature I accept as being "part of the food chain", when I loose this reference point I loose my edge.

dbldrew
11-22-2008, 02:20 AM
dbldrew,

There are all kinds of zoos full of... MEN "Folsom" etc...
Is that your measure or is it the ability to kill?
What about deadly influenza, millions have expired?
Ebola is much deadlier than man therefore on top?
Man (in general) is afraid of nature, afraid of the night, animals just accept it. Forums such as these shows us that only a small percentage do in fact thread the wilderness paths not in superiority but in equality.
I think your top of the food chain is like a house of cards just waiting for the slightest shift...
As far as "The majority of bear encounters the bear will move off."
grizzlies wouldn't... are they the top? ask hopeak he's a bit closer than most of us.
choose to believe what you want


I got the quote to work, if I could only figure out exactly what I did :)


Some people might be afraid of nature but that doesn’t change the fact that we are still the top dog.

Now as far as grizzlies not running off. The statistics for bear attacks that ended in a death from 1900-2003 there where…
Black Bears –52 deaths
Brown Bears – 50 deaths (Grizzly, Kodiak, & Mexican Brown)
Polar – 5 deaths

So those Grizzlys are killing 1 human every other year, now I couldn’t find that much information on the total number of Bears Hunted each year, but I can guarantee it’s over .5 per year. Again not even close.

DOGMAN
11-22-2008, 02:33 AM
I do agree that Grizzlies almost always move off when they encounter a human or human scent.

Almost always....I live in Park County, Montana and in the past year and a half- there have been 9 Grizzly bear attacks on humans in my county alone.

Humans are not the top of the food chain here. Humans with guns are...but without firearms we are out matched.

klkak
11-22-2008, 03:50 AM
If a man and a bear or mountain lion or wolf or even a large renegade dog, meet in the wild face to face and the man has no weapon. The man is not at the top of the food chain unless he can kill the animal with his bare hands.

Sourdough
11-22-2008, 06:33 AM
If a man and a bear or mountain lion or wolf or even a large renegade dog, meet in the wild face to face and the man has no weapon. The man is not at the top of the food chain unless he can kill the animal with his bare hands.


This sounds straight to me. And if you did cage fights Man vs. Animals with no timeouts, just put them in the cage and came back in three days and see who wins....? It might be a short list of animals that a man could defeat naked, with no weapon.

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 09:21 AM
This sounds straight to me. And if you did cage fights Man vs. Animals with no timeouts, just put them in the cage and came back in three days and see who wins....? It might be a short list of animals that a man could defeat naked, with no weapon.

Now that's just a bit too kinky.:eek:

wareagle69
11-22-2008, 09:44 AM
god created man sam colt made em even....
i think what has been said here is true we are only superior with our tools but even then i would say firearms (modern) if you put us in the woods permanetly again with only bows and arrows or spears how many would then dominate, and a great point ny cold heartless freind how many microbes take us big tough humans every year
oh and hopeak ya know if theres any cage fighting to be going on here i will be the ref since i do recall having a bit of experience (getting way to beat up to compete anymore i'll leave that to all you young studs but i do understand coot a bit better now)

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 12:20 PM
While our tools give us an advantage, I believe it is our minds that truely give us the advantage. After all, that' s how we came up with the ideas for the tools.


oh yeah, and opposable thumbs.....they're important too.

DOGMAN
11-22-2008, 01:47 PM
Some people might be afraid of nature but that doesn’t change the fact that we are still the top dog.

Now as far as grizzlies not running off. The statistics for bear attacks that ended in a death from 1900-2003 there where…
Black Bears –52 deaths
Brown Bears – 50 deaths (Grizzly, Kodiak, & Mexican Brown)
Polar – 5 deaths

So those Grizzlys are killing 1 human every other year, now I couldn’t find that much information on the total number of Bears Hunted each year, but I can guarantee it’s over .5 per year. Again not even close.

It looks like we've got an internet expert on our hands......

The source for your facts, I found is Wikipedia, and your info is the very first thing that comes up when you google "Grizzly Bear attacks".
I read over your "source" and right near the top it says two interesting things

1)The most recent data is the most reliable and complete, but does not necessarily include all fatal attacks that have occurred in North America
2)This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.

So, basing your theory on others being "scared of Nature" and "humans being top dog" on supposed facts that anyone can edit, add or subtract to online is a little naive.

This is a site about "wilderness survival" most of us aren't here because we are scared of nature- we are here because we RESPECT nature. Maybe in Illinois, were all the major wild predators were killed off long ago its easy to feel superior to everything else.

But, here in the heart of Grizzly country it is foolish to conduct yourself in such a manner. Your attitude could easily get you mauled, or even worse get someone else mauled who listened to your online expert opinon. The bottom line is guns jam, bear spray runs out, and people who are too close to Grizzlies when these things happen often get hurt. Playing down the threat or danger of bears to people is just downright irresponsible.

If you truly feel that humans are top dogs in the food chain, all I can say, is you haven't spent much time outside in wildernesss areas that have all their original predators....and my opinion wasn't developed from "online sources" it was developed over a lifetime of living, playing, thriving and surviving in bear country.

wudshapr
11-22-2008, 01:52 PM
bacteria is at the top of the chain.
A man without currency is bait.
It requires currency to obtain the items for survival, even if it is just intelligence, nothing is free.
A bear relies on nothing, and needs nothing more than itself to kill.
The playing field can and will be levelled when our "intelligence" leads us over the cliff collectivelly.
Unless you can hone a rifle out of stone, you would not last in a showdown with a bear.
By that time, the bear would turn you into ribbons, so would a croc, so would an angry cat.
We can say we are at the top of the chain, but it is superficial, we are actually not that resiliant.
Domination by humans has proven ill relations in crowded parks, as it has amongst our own kind worldwide.
Intelligence in the future will be measured by "real" thinking, what a man does to continue breathing another day, a standard mastered by the other animals out there who have not ventured into unsustainable or impractical structure, or skills.
The measurement should be as if the two opponents were thrown naked into a ring, or wilderness, like hopeak said.
Man, naked in the wilderness, can expect a few days before even beginning to survive, much less fight offenders.
A bear, well, there isn't a comparison, it already lives out there naked, successfully, with no weapons, traps, fire, and has time to sleep a lot.
The test is what member of the chain is at the top, and the answer is not bear or human, because bacteria will knock either into their grave faster than anything.

dbldrew
11-22-2008, 04:37 PM
It looks like we've got an internet expert on our hands......
Was that supposed to be an insult? Yes I looked up the stats of bear attacks, it not like the number of bear attacks are common knowledge, so I looked it up, so what, next time should I just make up numbers to support my argument?



The source for your facts, I found is Wikipedia, and your info is the very first thing that comes up when you google "Grizzly Bear attacks".
I read over your "source" and right near the top it says two interesting things

1)The most recent data is the most reliable and complete, but does not necessarily include all fatal attacks that have occurred in North America
2)This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.

Yep wikipedia is where I pulled the numbers, I originally was going to use the numbers from this site http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/attacks/bear-human_conflicts.htm which seems a lot more scientific but it only has data for Alaska. So I decided to use the wikipedia one which covers all the US. It’s interesting to note that they are not that far off from each other. Not that surprising considering that Alaska has the highest population of bears though.



So, basing your theory on others being "scared of Nature" and "humans being top dog" on supposed facts that anyone can edit, add or subtract to online is a little naive.

Funny it seems you are trying to counter argue my point but failed to actually point to another source that does that. There are lots of other information out there that has bear attacks, most don’t include the whole US like the wikipeda, most just have a specific area like the one above about Alaska, or like this one in regards to Yellowstone. http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/injuries.htm which had a total of 5 bear fatalities.

And my theory has nothing to do with people being afraid of nature, in fact it was tsitenha that said people where afraid of nature, I just said that even if some people are, that doesn’t change the fact that we are top dog.


This is a site about "wilderness survival" most of us aren't here because we are scared of nature- we are here because we RESPECT nature. Maybe in Illinois, were all the major wild predators were killed off long ago its easy to feel superior to everything else.
That’s a good point, why do you suppose there are no more natural predators in Illinois? Answer that question and you just proved my point.




But, here in the heart of Grizzly country it is foolish to conduct yourself in such a manner. Your attitude could easily get you mauled, or even worse get someone else mauled who listened to your online expert opinon. The bottom line is guns jam, bear spray runs out, and people who are too close to Grizzlies when these things happen often get hurt. Playing down the threat or danger of bears to people is just downright irresponsible.

First off nowhere did I advocate any type of behavior of how people should conduct themselves in the wild. All I said was that we are the “top dogs”, if people take that and do something foolish and get themselves killed, then they obviously where idiots. Obviously bears are large powerful creatures that should be dealt with using caution. But with that being said (caution “internet expert” content ahead)

In the US there is on average almost 40,000 fatalities due to car crashes every year. So you are 40,000 times more likely to die driving to the woods then getting eaten by a bear in the woods. Food for thought…



If you truly feel that humans are top dogs in the food chain, all I can say, is you haven't spent much time outside in wildernesss areas that have all their original predators....and my opinion wasn't developed from "online sources" it was developed over a lifetime of living, playing, thriving and surviving in bear country.

So basically your whole argument is based on your opinion rather then facts, got it. Answer this question, could Humans wipe out all of the bears in the world? Yes or no? Now could bears wipe out all of the humans in the world? Yes or no?

tsitenha
11-22-2008, 04:57 PM
dbldrew, I guess your right about being the top of the food chain if killing is the only function but

wudshapr
bacteria is at the top of the chain
is quite right, if this is all there is, killing and consuming?

Look around lots of "things" are at the top with us in that case like it or not.

Don't loose your edge.


I did it again :) snoopy happy dance :)

Rick
11-22-2008, 05:06 PM
Bacteria is not at the top of the food chain. It's at the top of the survival chain. Big difference all be it semantics. The point is understood either way.

dbddrew - In answer to your question could bears kill off mankind or vice versa. The answer is yes. Depends on the circumstances. Alone as Klkak described bears would be running the stock market in short order. Equipped with a .30-06, .300 or .338 magnum or some similar super armor then the bear is just out matched. The same could be said of a good half dozen animals. You will never find me wrestling some 11 foot gator or trying to body slam a hippo.

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 05:10 PM
You will never find me wrestling some 11 foot gator or trying to body slam a hippo.

Reminds me of a couple of dates I had long ago.:D

tsitenha
11-22-2008, 05:11 PM
trying to body slam a hippo

now I'd pay a dollar to see that, just the thought is too much :eek::D:eek:

but you are a super moderator....I wonder

Rick
11-22-2008, 05:15 PM
It's all in how you grab them. But you have to be quick!:rolleyes:

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 05:17 PM
What? The date?

wildWoman
11-22-2008, 05:18 PM
Maybe our new friend here will get to test his wilderness survival skills one day in a place where there is still some wilderness to be found and get to find out where exactly he'll fit into the food chain.
Actions speak louder...

klkak
11-22-2008, 05:23 PM
Reminds me of a couple of dates I had long ago.:D

Are you gonna take me home tonight?
Ah down beside that red firelight
Are you gonna let it all hang out?
Fat bottomed girls
You make the rockin' world go round:D

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 05:23 PM
For those of you that live in bear country this is probably no big deal. While camping recently (civilized camp ground) I walked upon a bear (picture in my album). I sat there for about twenty minutes just observing and admiring the animal. They truely are magnificent.

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 05:25 PM
Are you gonna take me home tonight?
Ah down beside that red firelight
Are you gonna let it all hang out?
Fat bottomed girls
You make the rockin' world go round:D

Queen did have some good tunes.

klkak
11-22-2008, 05:27 PM
I'm not even at the top of the food chain in my own house. When my daughter and grandkids come over, I have to lock myself in the bathroom. When they leave it looks like a pack of young wolves have been playing WWF in my house.

klkak
11-22-2008, 05:32 PM
For those of you that live in bear country this is probably no big deal. While camping recently (civilized camp ground) I walked upon a bear (picture in my album). I sat there for about twenty minutes just observing and admiring the animal. They truely are magnificent.

I sat up in a tree stand over a bear bait station once when a momma and 2 cubs came in. While the momma was digging in the bait barrel I was throwing peanut M&M's at the cubs. I almost died trying not to laugh at the cubs fighting over the M&M's. It was the most comical thing I think I've ever witnessed.

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 05:34 PM
Melts in your mouth, not in your paws!

klkak
11-22-2008, 05:44 PM
Those two cubs weight about 30 lbs each. I believe if they knew where the M&M's were coming from they would have climbed up that tree and kicked my butt to get the whole bag.

Rick
11-22-2008, 06:09 PM
Now really, Klkak. How tough can life up north be if you're eating M&Ms while in the bush? I'm mean, really. What's next? A chauffeur driven ATV?:D

DOGMAN
11-22-2008, 06:13 PM
So basically your whole argument is based on your opinion rather then facts, got it. Answer this question, could Humans wipe out all of the bears in the world? Yes or no? Now could bears wipe out all of the humans in the world? Yes or no?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious...my closing statement was:

"If you truly feel that humans are top dogs in the food chain, all I can say, is you haven't spent much time outside in wildernesss areas that have all their original predators....and my opinion wasn't developed from "online sources" it was developed over a lifetime of living, playing, thriving and surviving in bear country."

I know my argument is based on opinion....that is why I stated that in my last paragraph. However, my opinion is based on my lifes experience growing up, living and working in prime Grizzly country. Your opinion is made up from surfing the web from suburbia- Got it.

I challenge you to come spend a Fall working in a hunting camp in a Wilderness Area surrounding Yellowstone, and then lets see what your opinon is. I love bears, and I am not overly scared of them. BUT, I give them tons of respect and space, because I know, from first hand experiece that I don't stand a chance against a Grizzly in a one on one confrontation- can you say the same?

klkak
11-22-2008, 06:15 PM
Now really, Klkak. How tough can life up north be if you're eating M&Ms while in the bush? I'm mean, really. What's next? A chauffeur driven ATV?:D

A chauffeur driven ATV.....hmmmmm. You know they have ATV's now with a back seat.:cool:

http://www.atvriders.com/images/canam/2009-atv/can-am-2009-outlander-max-ltd-800r-red-fr.jpg

Sourdough
11-22-2008, 06:24 PM
And Ankle guards.

DOGMAN
11-22-2008, 06:26 PM
Answer this question, could Humans wipe out all of the bears in the world? Yes or no? Now could bears wipe out all of the humans in the world? Yes or no?

The debate isn't about Bears vs People...the debate is, Are humans the top of the food chain. So, you need to add Killer Bees, Fleas on Rats, Mosquitos, Snakes etc... There are lots of creatures that can topple your claim....

Humans are just one more creature in a diverse world, take away our guns and catch us alone- then we are far from the top.

klkak
11-22-2008, 06:27 PM
How about this one?

http://images2.auction123.com/sizequalitypredef/76becac0-d53b-4917-bbfc-3145508d49b3/16734169/01.jpg?webimage001l

klkak
11-22-2008, 06:29 PM
And Ankle guards.

That was below the belt.....way below the belt....:D

Rick
11-22-2008, 06:31 PM
You just need the trailer version.

http://www.allterrainresq.com/images/TylerMt_WVATVRes-QTrailerTraining4.jpg

...and ankle guards. (Now that right there is funny I don't care who you are. You go Hope!)

tsitenha
11-22-2008, 06:35 PM
All of this over hopeak's post of his sighting that wolf, maybe this is the message that it brought {Humans the other fast food} :D:D:D

klkak
11-22-2008, 06:40 PM
If I wasn't so shallow you might have hurt my feelings.........What were we talking about anyway???

DOGMAN
11-22-2008, 06:46 PM
Funny it seems you are trying to counter argue my point but failed to actually point to another source that does that. There are lots of other information out there that has bear attacks, most don’t include the whole US like the wikipeda, most just have a specific area like the one above about Alaska, or like this one in regards to Yellowstone. http://www.nps.gov/yell/naturescience/injuries.htm which had a total of 5 bear fatalities.

Well, Mr Internet expert...at least read the articles you site...the articles you use don't even agree on how many bear attacks there have been in Yellowstone. So, how valid can your opinion even be when its based off conflicting web research?

If you want to talk about Bears and Cubs, why don't you just stick to what you have have in Illinois....football and baseball teams, and leave discussion to the actual animals to people who have more than an Internet based opinion.

Rick
11-22-2008, 06:55 PM
Okay, we have two total strangers taking written jabs at one another over ..... what are you guys arguing about?

Rick
11-22-2008, 07:05 PM
Oh yeah. Bears. and mans' fear of them. I guess my greatest fear would be a Polar Bear with a chain saw. Whoa! Been there done that. Ain't going back.

Rick
11-22-2008, 07:07 PM
This one is for Traxistan. Bear Cavalry!

http://www.russian-victories.ru/bear_cavalry.jpg

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 07:10 PM
and don't forget the Free Traxistan Rough Riders with their Shetland Ponies.

http://www.dvrbs.com/camden/images/AlbertBassWithPony-50s-1.jpg

dbldrew
11-22-2008, 07:25 PM
I challenge you to come spend a Fall working in a hunting camp in a Wilderness Area surrounding Yellowstone, and then lets see what your opinon is. I love bears, and I am not overly scared of them. BUT, I give them tons of respect and space, because I know, from first hand experiece that I don't stand a chance against a Grizzly in a one on one confrontation- can you say the same?

Well I could tell you with Yellowstone only having 5 fatalities by bears I would be a lot safer there then where I am now. I’m much more likely to get killed by another Human then by a bear. The few times I’ve come across bears while backpacking I’ve given them plenty of respect and space as well. Now do I stand a chance against a Grizzly? Depending on what situation your talking about, as in could I hunt them? Sure no problem, do I stand a chance unarmed? Nope.


The debate isn't about Bears vs People...the debate is, Are humans the top of the food chain. So, you need to add Killer Bees, Fleas on Rats, Mosquitos, Snakes etc... There are lots of creatures that can topple your claim....
No the debate was about a wolf, but seemed to move on from that, and my response to you about bears was because of you commenting on the “heart of Grizzly country”.

Bees, rats, Snakes, etc. there are lots of animals that can kill humans, I never said that we are invincible, but with all of your examples we have killed way more of them then they have killed of us.



Humans are just one more creature in a diverse world, take away our guns and catch us alone- then we are far from the top.

Agreed, Humans superiority is solely dependent on our ability to make and use weapons. Take away our weapons and we fall pretty far down the food chain, but we have plenty of weapons so until that changes we are still at the top.

Rick
11-22-2008, 07:42 PM
I remember watching a National Geo show a few years back. It was about Saber Toothed Tigers. They had discovered a human skull inside a small cave and it had two perfectly round holes in it where the two saber teeth fit perfectly. I remember thinking, "I wonder what was going through that guy's mind just before the teeth did." Was he thinking, "Here kitty, kitty?" or more like "Oh, sh**. This is gonna be a bad one." When you put the human spin on it then it was kinda creepy.

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 07:44 PM
Should have gone with Geico.

Rick
11-22-2008, 07:51 PM
Or the big tricked out name tag.

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 07:58 PM
All of this talk about wolves, bears and such......everybody knows that I'm the top of the food chain. (I've even heard some say I taste like chicken)

http://eyecube.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/gecko.jpg

Rick
11-22-2008, 08:06 PM
Eat a ghecko?! OOooooooohhhhhhhhh!

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z206/Chiorchick22/zzFlo_from_Progressive.jpg

dbldrew
11-22-2008, 09:05 PM
Well, Mr Internet expert...at least read the articles you site...the articles you use don't even agree on how many bear attacks there have been in Yellowstone. So, how valid can your opinion even be when its based off conflicting web research?

If you want to talk about Bears and Cubs, why don't you just stick to what you have have in Illinois....football and baseball teams, and leave discussion to the actual animals to people who have more than an Internet based opinion.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about, I only posted 1 source for Yellowstone, and that article doesn’t contradict itself. Except that they did list 5 confirmed and 1 possible death. Not sure how having 1 unconfirmed death changes my point in the least.

Here is my last point in this whole (useless) debate. According to the harvest report from Alaska, looking at the number of bears hunted are (based on a 5 year average)

Black bears – 2679 per year
Brown bears- 1526 per year

Show me any documentation that states that bears are killing more humans then that and I will contend that they are higher up on the food chain then us.

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/pubs/techpubs/mgt_rpts/harvest_summary.pdf

DOGMAN
11-22-2008, 10:10 PM
I’m not sure what you’re talking about, I only posted 1 source for Yellowstone, and that article doesn’t contradict itself. Except that they did list 5 confirmed and 1 possible death. Not sure how having 1 unconfirmed death changes my point in the least.

Do you even read the sources you mention?

What I am talking about is, your NPS source says there has been 5 people killed by bears in the Park, and then if you read all of your Wikipedia reports, they have 7 different people reported as killed in the Park.

The point is you don't know what your talking about, and your argument is drying up because you only have web sites to back up your ASSumptions.

DOGMAN
11-22-2008, 10:24 PM
Show me any documentation that states that bears are killing more humans then that and I will contend that they are higher up on the food chain then us.

I am not talking about developing an opinion based on "secondary" research, and with a sense of superiority and a subjective opinion, as your doing.

I am talking about experiencing the natural world as a participant...

Why don't you come do some primary/field research on Grizzlies in Yellowstone Park (were firearms are illegal) and then tell me that humans are on top of the food chain.

Sorry, I don't need internet sources (documentation) to back me up, I've done the field work.

klkak
11-22-2008, 10:43 PM
Who is dbldrool any way? Whats his background or experience?

klkak
11-22-2008, 10:52 PM
Face something like this ol'boy with nothing in your hands but sweat and tell him to back off cause you are higher up the food chain then him. See if he believes you.:D
http://www.whispering-spirit.com/Images/gr-2-21.JPG

dbldrew
11-22-2008, 11:20 PM
Do you even read the sources you mention?

What I am talking about is, your NPS source says there has been 5 people killed by bears in the Park, and then if you read all of your Wikipedia reports, they have 7 different people reported as killed in the Park.

The point is you don't know what your talking about, and your argument is drying up because you only have web sites to back up your ASSumptions.

Ok this is my “official” last point on this ridiculous subject.

Fist you state that the wikipedai isn’t a reliable source, then you say that because the NPS doesn’t match the wikipedia (unreliable) source then it can’t be accurate. Not a very logical conclusion there. Furthermore if you read the NPS article, there are 5 confirmed, 1 possible, and 1 just outside the park. Doing simple math it’s easy to understand how the wikepedia got the 7 total (5+1+1=7) It’s not that complicated.


I am not talking about developing an opinion based on "secondary" research, and with a sense of superiority and a subjective opinion, as your doing.

I am talking about experiencing the natural world as a participant...

Why don't you come do some primary/field research on Grizzlies in Yellowstone Park (were firearms are illegal) and then tell me that humans are on top of the food chain.

Sorry, I don't need internet sources (documentation) to back me up, I've done the field work.

If you have done the field work then what is your scientific findings that show the number of fatalities by bears differ then the findings done buy by the report by Kerry A. Gunther Bear Management Office Wildlife Biologist? Seriously, what is the real total if you know better?


Who is dbldrool any way? Whats his background or experience?

Well I’m not a Biologist, which is why I have to rely on papers done by researchers and posted on the Internet for my information.

But my experience, is basic outdoor recreation, hunting, fishing, backpacking, canoeing, rock climbing, orienteering, adventure racing, etc. My survival experience kicked off when I was a kid and read Tom Browns books. Have made debris huts, made fire with a bow drill, have done a bit of flint knapping (was never very good at that) made snares, figure 4 traps, made primitive bows etc. I have basic skills that I’m decent at, but I’m pretty weak at plaint identification and other things I’m not a survival expert, never pretended to be.


Face something like this ol'boy with nothing in your hands but sweat and tell him to back off cause you are higher up the food chain then him. See if he believes you.:D

Chances are it would be a bluff charge, and as long as I move off slowly nothing will happen. If I turn and run it might trigger him to now see me as pray and with nothing to protect myself I would be screwed. I have said many times that without weapons we don’t have much chance. But Humans do have weapons very good ones at that.

klkak
11-22-2008, 11:36 PM
Before posting checklist

Ever notice how some people try to sound like they know what they are talking about before they take their foot out of their mouth and engage their brain?

For this I created a check list.

1. Take foot out of mouth.

2. Engage your brain.

3. Make sure you know what you are talking about. If you don't have at least some expertise on the subject stop here.

If you have some knowledge of the topic continue.

4. Form a complete sentence in your head before typing it.

5. Read the sentence to see if it makes sense.

6. Run the spell check feature.

7. Read it again to make sure it still makes sense.

8. Post the comment.

9. Read it again and use the edit feature if it needs correcting

If you add something like (IMHO) to your post then most folks will leave you alone cause they know its only an opinion. If you don't then folks think you are trying to state facts. And facts have to be backed up by hard data. Mixing facts and opinions, only lead to a thread with a bad case of diarrhea posts.

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 11:47 PM
Bears?

http://www.somethingevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/diarrhea-bear.jpg

klkak
11-22-2008, 11:49 PM
Crash you need serious help!

crashdive123
11-22-2008, 11:51 PM
Thank you. Thank you very much.:D

Sarge47
11-23-2008, 12:20 AM
Started out talking about a cool black wolf & wound up arguing about Griz & who's on top of the food chain. Wow! I vote for Griz! Here in Illinois we only have coyotes to worry about, no Bears or Wolves that I'm aware of. Hopeak, I find your encounter with the Black Wolk facinating; it was probably drawn to you because you're a member of the Wolf-Pack!:rolleyes: Now let's just hope you don't open the door & find a large Griz standing there saying: "About this food chain crap!":eek::D:cool:

klkak
11-23-2008, 02:18 AM
When a bear is eating salmon. The bear is one step higher on the food chain then the salmon. If the bear is eating berries then the bear is one step higher on the food chain then the berries. If a bear is eating a human then it is one step higher on the food chain then the human.

The same applies to humans.

If a human is eating salmon he is one step higher on the food chain then the salmon. If the human is eating berries then the human is one step higher on the food chain then the berries. If the human is eating a bear then the human is one step higher on the food chain then the bear.

OMG! am I glad that twinkie's don't have a mouth.:eek:

klkak
11-23-2008, 02:28 AM
Bear 1 to Bear 2, You wanna go down to the river for a bite to eat? I hear the anglers are in there thick today.

Bear 2, No thanks, I've had to much junk-food this week.

Bear 1 ambles off toward the river with thoughts of twinkie stuffed anglers for dinner.

chiye tanka
11-23-2008, 03:35 AM
LMAO, that's good stuff klkak.

wareagle69
11-23-2008, 08:56 AM
OMG! am I glad that twinkie's don't have a mouth.:eek:[/QUOTE]
well friend you are new here so i will forgive you for that comment but let me correct you we do have a resident twinkie here with a really big mouth eh rick?

Rick
11-23-2008, 09:34 AM
As the official Twinkie spokesman (Ahem. Twinkies should always be capitalized. It's a proper noun and, after all, they deserve the respect!) and official Minister of Science I can hereby proclaim Twinkies (notice the capital T? Hmm?) at the top of the food chain. Eat enough of them and they will kill you. Case closed. Thank you for stopping by tonight. Your attendance is always appreciated.

wareagle69
11-23-2008, 09:38 AM
duelly noted just rick

nell67
11-23-2008, 09:50 AM
As the official Twinkie spokesman (Ahem. Twinkies should always be capitalized. It's a proper noun and, after all, they deserve the respect!) and official Minister of Science I can hereby proclaim Twinkies (notice the capital T? Hmm?) at the top of the food chain. Eat enough of them and they will kill you. Case closed. Thank you for stopping by tonight. Your attendance is always appreciated.

Thats a case of the eatee and not the eater getting that last laugh,eh Rick?

Rick
11-23-2008, 09:54 AM
I should be so lucky if a bear ever eats me. I hope they have really really bad indigestion. Or, at least gas.