Group Survival 101.

[Sarge47]

Back to this again. I started a thread awhile back about picking a leader. Obviously the odds are against picking a group, you take the cards you're dealt. However if I could pick a group based on what I've learned from the guys here the choice would be the following.

Vol-West
Owl-Girl
Foggy
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
Trax
Wareagle 69
Marscroft

That's seven right off the top of my head, although I'm sure there's more, just can't remember them all. Assuming that everyone has come through whatever survival situation we face unscathed I would not suggest picking a leader, but rather forming a team. The knowledge displayed by this group suggests that all know what to do and each would use their particular skills for the better of the group. If the group is even numbered there maybe to be a"tie-breaker" selected in case voting is used. This, of course, is the best-case scenario. No one really ever knows with who, what, where, when, why, or how they might wind up. Nor do they know the state of their fellow survivors in any given situation. After all it's not a perfect world, and Murphy is still running around on the loose.;)

[FVR]

Use that skin pad, pilgrim,
before you lose all your fingers.

Whatever you learned down in the flat
will serve you no good up here.


You got some work to do.

[Fog_Harbor]

Thanks, Sarge

[owl_girl]

Aww thanks Sarge.

When you trust the people your with its not that difficult to form a team however if your with a bunch of strangers who are reckless and headstrong it could take a long time to function as a team.

[ryaninmichigan]

[QUOTE=Sarge47;5700]
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
QUOTE]


I am not sure what you mean by this. Did I post something about this?

[trax]

...except that one guy..Trax?...he gets a little weird, what? oh um, never mind...:D :D :D

[Sarge47]

[QUOTE=Sarge47;5700]
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
QUOTE]


I am not sure what you mean by this. Did I post something about this?

Thread title: "An Absolute Must Read!" Post 14. Although I may have you confused with someone else.:confused:

[ryaninmichigan]

Nope that was me forgot all about it. Anyway thanx for choosing me to be on your team.

[FVR]

There always has to be an Alpha Dog. Nothing worse than sitting down and having to debate, discuss, and argue about every decision.

Sometimes you have to take the hill, because you have to take the hill.

But then I'm a military man. If the wood needs to get cut, cut the freak'n wood, don't argue about who is going to do it, just get the job done.

Ahh, but what do I know, I just get the job done.

[Sarge47]

Me thinkum you braves sayin' "Too many chiefs, not enough injuns?" So white man have solution? How we pick chief from this tribe?:confused:

[FVR]

The dynamics of the tribe will determine the leader.

If you have a bunch of greenhorns, the leader will be the one who has the most knowledge. Knowledge is power.

If you have a bunch of military pers., the leader will be the one with the most respect. Respect is earned, not given. Most, respected leaders were good followers, they knew when to push, when to stay, and when to take a step back.

Sarge, the leader of your group will be Volwest, his second in command will be wareagle. The leader will train his replacement, his second in command.


The leader will eventually fullfill his destiny, he should gladly back off and let his second in command take the reins. The former leader at that point will be the wiseman, a confidant, the one that may not have the final say, but has the wisdom to input what the leader may miss.

I'm just the smartass that cuts the wood.

[Sarge47]

The dynamics of the tribe will determine the leader.

If you have a bunch of greenhorns, the leader will be the one who has the most knowledge. Knowledge is power.

If you have a bunch of military pers., the leader will be the one with the most respect. Respect is earned, not given. Most, respected leaders were good followers, they knew when to push, when to stay, and when to take a step back.

Sarge, the leader of your group will be Volwest, his second in command will be wareagle. The leader will train his replacement, his second in command.


The leader will eventually fullfill his destiny, he should gladly back off and let his second in command take the reins. The former leader at that point will be the wiseman, a confidant, the one that may not have the final say, but has the wisdom to input what the leader may miss.

I'm just the smartass that cuts the wood.

How many posts did it take to come up with a name for the leader? I'll vote for VW if you can promise me he'll keep the verbage down.:D Wareagle, ah yes! I'll probably call him "Snoring Moose" though.:D I can cook, gather wood, use an axe, sing, workin' on playin' my harp, (Not as good as Les, though) hope ya all like "Blues"; and the most important thing, take direction/orders! Sir, yes sir!:rolleyes:

[FVR]

Sarge,

You will only need to cook.


You cook good rabbit, pilgrim.

[Sarge47]

Sarge,

You will only need to cook.


You cook good rabbit, pilgrim.

Just keep VW out of my kitchen area; if he starts talkin' about having a relationship with the food........:rolleyes:

[FVR]

Nobody mess' with the grumpy cook.

Just make sure that you keep one cup of coffee hot. Good leaders let the troops eat first. It's always nice to have a hot cup of coffee.

[FVR]

The easy part is done. You have the leader, the second in command, and the cook.

Place your remaining group members.


Owl-Girl
Foggy
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
Trax
Marscroft

[Sarge47]

Nobody mess' with the grumpy cook.

Just make sure that you keep one cup of coffee hot. Good leaders let the troops eat first. It's always nice to have a hot cup of coffee.

You'll have to teach me about coffee, I'm a tea drinker. Got this right out of a survival book, BTW, "Tea quenches thirst, Coffee agravates it. I always let everyone else eat first, that way if the foods bad I'll know!:D Also, what about Owl Girl, she's got some savy, any female who wants to study up on knife steel...;)

[FVR]

Now remember, if RiM and his 5 family members, (12 total) don't like what's happening. They can overthrow your group, or take all your provisions and set off and start their own group.

[Sarge47]

Now remember, if RiM and his 5 family members, (12 total) don't like what's happening. They can overthrow your group, or take all your provisions and set off and start their own group.

That's why we got VW & WE! VW can keep them psyched out and Wareagle will sic "Norm" on them if they get outta hand.:rolleyes: Seriously though, the thing is that in any survival situation anybody can do what you just said, if they have the numbers. The alternative may be leaving someone to die, and in my opinion that's not an option unless the situation warrants it, and then you'd better be 100% sure!:eek:

[FVR]

What you will find out is that your "group" will have sub groups. VW an WE won't have to win over the whole RiM clan. but rather win over the leader of that group.

With the creation of the RiM group, the other members will feel alienated, thus forming their own group.

In essence, VW will have a major headache and WE will have to take action.

WE will be pursued by both "sub groups" to influence VW for their own good.

At that point, WE's loyalty will surface.

We can only speculate what would happen. WE being a mil. man, will be in the most demanding position.



And I will be chopping wood.



"We have graves to dig."

[ryaninmichigan]

Your biggest problem will be the fact I own half the group form the get go. Not that I am that type of person, VW does way too much pondering to be my leader. If we need to cut wood we need to cut would not discover why we desire to have fire.

FVR is right sub groups will form and the leaders of these groups will collectively lead the whole group. You will have hunters, gathers, and camp keepers. There will be these sub group leaders and within the sub groups the pecking order will be formed naturally.

The key to survival is the diversity of the group and the willingness to put worth one effort in exchange for another. And to see the value of the other effort. I value the Gathers leaks and fire wood, while he values my venison and hides. WE both value the Cook and makers of shelter while we were gone…

We should start a thread based on a few assumptions Play each post as actions we are taking and see where the chips fall. Maybe we will all end up killing each other maybe we will end being the first trading post in the after TSHTF.

[trax]

volwest doesn't want to be leader? YOu might want to check with both he and wareagle before assigning all your other positions, and Sarge--I make the best campfire coffee (not my vote on that...I've been told) so I'll show you that and then I'm outta the kitchen, never P### off the cook!

[trax]

I asked that question based on how volwest described his own role in a group survival scenario. And I see that we already have a "challenge" to that position. Volwest didnt' seem like it was a role he wanted to take on.

My personal viewpoint, and I'm not a military man, but still am very much in agreement with FVR, get it done. Still, I wouldn't see myself in the position of leader either, there are certain tasks that I know I would excel at and I would start on those, conversely if a group leader says "not today man, we need you to give FVR a hand splitting wood or Sarge a hand in the kitchen" then I'm ok with that.

By virtue of the situation as we've visualized it to date too, group members need to have an awareness and respect for each other's positions. For instance, if it is RiM's and my job to hunt game for a group, then other group members need to appreciate that we're going to be keeping different hours. Flip side of the coin is, if FVR is hauling firewood into camp, he doesn't need someone *****ing "why aren't you out there gutting an elk with trax?" etc. You guys get the point, no need in my belaboring it.

Personally, my first choice for leader would be between FVR and Wareagle. If they take first and second post, with either of them in either order, I'm cool with it. The other consideration that every good leader is aware of is recognizing the expertise of the group members at their assigned tasks. So....Nell and owl-girl are both pretty good at finding wild foods, medicines etc, the group leader gets them to look, but doesn't say where to look or how or what to look for, that's their expertise. Tell me you need meat, don't try telling me how to get it, cuz I'll just smile and nod and do what I was going to do in the first place.

Just two cents worth.

[Sarge47]

Of course VW might decline leadership...up front! With his knowledge of psycology he could covertly lead from the flanks, without others being aware of it. His strength would be in identifying any potential problems within the group and suggestions on how to handle them. I think it looks more like a team, but maybe a team "captain" is also needed. Whoever is picked will have to be voted in unanimously as that would cause fewer divisions. And Trax, you could make coffee anytime pard, and stick around jawin' too! I was mostly joking about people in the way. There is a time for people to stand back, but not always. Finally, if there's a "common foe" outside the group, that can oft-times pull the people inside tighter together.

[owl_girl]

We should start a thread based on a few assumptions Play each post as actions we are taking and see where the chips fall. Maybe we will all end up killing each other maybe we will end being the first trading post in the after TSHTF.
You mean you want to role play it?

[trax]

I think that governance in a small group can rely heavily on "council", where a leader has opportunity to gain from any and all member's expertise. Immediate decisions, when required, are up to that leader. Disciplinary measures and "motivation" are also up to that leader. There's a time for both, council based decisions and unilateral decisions. Unanimous agreement is rare, but consensus can be garnered in those situations (vis: I don't agree with Sarge's coffee making, but for the sake of the group I agree to let him keep trying) A "foe" to the group is where volwest first suggested his own expertise. In a council setting he might suggest that he could utilize my skills, or WE's, or RiM's in dealing with those foes. The situation as I'm describing it is much like the way most North American native groups functioned back in the day.

Sarge just re-identified something that volwest mentioned earlier. His own penchant for being one who distances himself from the rest of the group because of the task that he has taken responsibility for, personally, I tend to be much the same way, that's the reason why I mentioned what I did earlier. Hunting is a good example, I'm going to be where my prey is when it's there, that may require me to be catching some sleep while others are working or hanging out around Sarge's kitchen looking for a bite to eat during "off" hours. The group...in council...finds agreement in that, the leader makes allowances for it to happen.

Of course, I'm babbling for nothing in a lot of this because I don't have the right to speak for volwest and he's definitely not someone I want to make assumptions for:rolleyes: The same goes for the FVR, WE, Nell, owl_girl and the rest. I'm just trying to throw in some "how about this..." scenarios

[trax]

I just had a thought. Actually two, one being that it's great that I'm supposed to be working and I'm sitting here typing to myself because the regulars aren't in that much during the morning.

The second one being....the size of the group and individual expertise. What I'm suggesting here is, kind of like the old days on the ball field. It was mentioning to lumpy that "if yer in yer in" that made me think of it. One common form of "group governance"....more than one group. I think we've got plenty of survival expertise among a lot of people here and plenty of mil. experience too, which is a great thing. We've had several people offer some of their expertise on survival without weighing in on our group survival thread. So we could have people choosing what leader they would rather follow, or what team mate they would rather work with, or leaders requesting someone based on the need of that group. Hope I'm not making everything too confusing..:eek:

[ryaninmichigan]

So SHTF, It is mid August and we are not going back to town for quite some time. We head for the big northern woods anywhere USA. Me and my clan are hauling our gear through the woods on our fourwheelers. Heading to a lake about 30 miles off the road We are about 15 miles out having just killed 6 rabbits we are looking for suitable camp site to make dinner when we notice smoke a mile or so away.

It is
Vol-West
Owl-Girl
Foggy
Trax
Wareagle 69
Marscroft

Having never met them we are reluctant move in. so we send in a single guy armed with a side arm, and a two way radio, nothing else to suggest we have anything of value. It’s me (I am the only dumb one.) Everyone else hangs back.

We meet and we determine for now that everyone is cool. You are out there about 2 days ahead of us. You invite us into your camp. It is 3pm gets dark at 10. I radio the guys. (I am making this easier in that somehow we are not with our families)


SOME background on us.
All of us are accomplished woodsmen who have been hunting, fishing, and trapping, since childhood. The oldest is 43 the youngest is 33. One is very creative when it comes to fabrication and fixing things, 2 are carpenters, and the last is well versed in many trades. I am leaving other info out about background and what we have with us until it is asked of me or needed.






Oh ya the last guys 10 to 12 we passed a day or two ago were not friendly.

Let’s discuss what happens next.

[trax]

Just for clarity's sake..you left out Sarge, I'm assuming he's with our group and you just skipped him accidentally..yes? no?

How many are in your group?

I want to talk with you and your guys about the "unfriendlies" What direction did they seem to be moving? What kind of firepower did they have? Did they have an overall appearance of competence in the woods? I'm already prepared to trust your judgement on the third question, the first two aren't judgement based questions.

I also want to discuss what we can offer each other as a merged group. For one obvious reason, the unfriendlies have us outnumbered as separate groups, if push comes to shove.

Another obvious reason, six rabbits by themselves don't make much of a meal for a group, but make a good contribution to a larger group meal.

[trax]

I think these last two posts could almost be a separate thread, or at least we can do a little more group definition before getting into this too much

[ryaninmichigan]

Yes Sarge is there. I was kind of directing it has initial post.

There are 4 of us total. The “unfriendlys” were at the last road 10 miles behind where we ditched the trucks. They were looting a gas station. They seem mildly armed some shot guns A couple hunting rifles. I think an AK or some Chinese nock off. They saw us and all our gear for sure. We ditched the trucks in cover and hit the weeds before they caught up. They were pretty busy loading up potato chips and cigs.

We know this area pretty well. And as you can see we have a ton of stuff with us. We can get into the particulars later. We are making our way to the lake where we are going to wait it out. When we were younger we would catch the crap out of walleye and perch in it.

The rabbits, ya it was going to be enough for us. We have some canned food but when opportunity shows itself. Keep the cans shoot the rabbits. But I see you have some berries and other things How about some meat to go along with it?

[trax]

I want the input of volwest and wareagle about the unfriendlies...I'm a big fan of pre-emptive strikes... and I probably want to discuss a long term, fortified group shelter with the tradespeople in your group. If we've been there two days, I'm pretty sure I'll have some meat and/or fish as well.

[ryaninmichigan]

Our plan was to make our way to the lake. And build a permanent shelter. That area provides us with a lot of resources. And there is some high ground on the north side of the lake we were planning on building on. You all are welcome to pack up and come along. We could use some hands to get the cabin built. And with this many people we could easily build more then one before it get too cold. Here is a bit of info. I am one of the carpenters. Ask away. Also Trax you seam to be the groups mouth piece. Or we are the only ones bored right now.

[trax]

Ask away. Also Trax you seam to be the groups mouth piece. Or we are the only ones bored right now.

No denying I'm mouthy, but I think it's cuz we're the only ones here right now. That's why I mentioned wanting some of the other folks input a while back. I don't think that group "pecking order" or whatever you want to call it has really been determined yet. I was just throwing in thoughts off the top of my head. What seems to be priority, kind of thing. If I don't do this, I have to log off and do real work, which involves directing the lives of people who are doing what they're doing for a paycheck. This is better, lol.

[owl_girl]

How long are we expecting this disaster to last? Are we going to be out there through winter? I’m having fun reading but right now I’m doing what I would be doing in that scenario ….quietly observing

[trax]

I've been making the assumption that this is something we should be doing some long term planning for, possibly months. I don't know why I was doing that, I just was....maybe that says something about me.

[trax]

No one wants to say anything about the other thread I started on this? hmmmm.....

[Fog_Harbor]

I've always tended to 'take up slack', which is to say I do the things that others don't want to do. I let people and their personalities work themselves out, and I don't participate in the inevitable politics of the group. As long as there is an established goal, and a plan, you can assign me anything, as long as the good of the group is served.

However, if everyone is trying to be the Alpha, and there is no goal and no plan due to the infighting, then you'd have to count me out - I'll take my chances alone.

[Sarge47]

A.) Where's law Enforcement? Townies looting gas stations implies TEOTWAWKI! How much coffee do we have? Trax is really hard to deal with in the morning until he gets that 1st cup into him.:rolleyes: The reason the question about the Townies is to ask if we shoot them 1st are we in deep Kim-Chee? In a survival situation you can hide out for awhile, but sooner or later somebody's gonna find you.

B.) Maybe the Townies were just stocking up? Where's VW, we can send him out to talk to them, find out where their heads are at, find out if their guns are loaded.:rolleyes:

C.) I would suggest holding off on any course of action until RiM's family gets to camp as they might have some intelligent input since Rim Said he was the "dumb" one;)

D.) What's the weather doing, and what season is it? E.) What's our camp like, are we hidden? RiM's group seemed to have stumbled right on us.

F.) How do we keep Norm from snoring and giving away our position? Maybe this could solve our "meat" problem for a bit, kill 2 birds with one round, as long as WE doesn't find out...:eek:

[trax]

However, if everyone is trying to be the Alpha, and there is no goal and no plan due to the infighting, then you'd have to count me out - I'll take my chances alone.

I don't think that's a concern, people seem ready to recognize other people's leadership for the most part, 'tis part ofwhy I brought up the piece about making sure the person wants the job first! But I do agree with your point, if that was what a group amounted to, I'd probably slip quietly out the "back door".

[FVR]

#1 How far did you drive before you ditched the trucks? How far from the unfriendlies?

#2 Did you notice the unfriendlies vehicles? Full size autos? 4 wheelers? Atvs?

#3 How much gas does your group have?

#4 That's a nice offer on the lake, we need to take a look as to ensure security.

#5 Sarge's group has women, yours does not. Agree right now that there will be no improper advances to the women in our group. If they want to take up with you, fine, if you force it, we will be digging graves. For you.

#6 We shake hands, all of us. This is the only honorable contract, we abide by it. If we have any disputes, they will not be poo poo'd.

#7 RiM, don't give me the BS that you are the dumbest, as of right now you are the rep. for your group.

#8 Let's have a cup of coffee, and tell us any of the latest news.


Oh, I'm only the woodcutter. VM, WE, here are my notes.

[ryaninmichigan]

A. This is it, I have everything I could carry of value with me. I do not expect to go home ever again.

B. Sure he can head out and talk to them. Not me, they had guns and did not seem to care about what they are doing.

C. I radioed the guys they are at your camp with me.

D. It is mid August fall will be here in 6 weeks.

E. Can’t answer that one.

[FVR]

Nobody needs to go out and talk to these bozo's.

We will have two person, 3 hour sentry's until the final destination is secured.

All persons must stand sentry duty, hunters get first watch as you need to get up early and get us meat.

Anyone have a good pair of bino's?


Oh wait a minute, I'm the freak'n woodcutter. Sarge, here are my notes.

[ryaninmichigan]

#1 How far did you drive before you ditched the trucks? How far from the unfriendlies?

#2 Did you notice the unfriendlies vehicles? Full size autos? 4 wheelers? Atvs?

#3 How much gas does your group have?

#4 That's a nice offer on the lake, we need to take a look as to ensure security.

#5 Sarge's group has women, yours does not. Agree right now that there will be no improper advances to the women in our group. If they want to take up with you, fine, if you force it, we will be digging graves. For you.

#6 We shake hands, all of us. This is the only honorable contract, we abide by it. If we have any disputes, they will not be poo poo'd.

#7 RiM, don't give me the BS that you are the dumbest, as of right now you are the rep. for your group.

#8 Let's have a cup of coffee, and tell us any of the latest news.


Oh, I'm only the woodcutter. VM, WE, here are my notes.

1. We had another ten miles till we dumped the trucks. Down an old logging road. They are pretty concealed but someone will find them at some point

2. 4 trucks all fourwheel drive anywhere from new to 10 ten years old.

3. the trucks still have some, we have around 50 gallons with us, including what’s in the four wheelers.

4. Cool look all you want. We will be pulling out in the morning.

5. We are honorable men who hold the women in our family very high. I have been know to intervene when I seen some red neck decide to slap his around in my sight. So deal. I will treat them as I would my sister and include all the protection that comes with.

6. I do what I say and I take a hand shack as contract.

7. I am not the dumbest, Just the dumbest to walk up on an unknown number of people alone. I watched for 30 minutes before I made my self known

8. I like mine strong. Let me tell you what we saw on the way in………..

[wareagle69]

well rim my lrrp knew you guys was a coming along time ago..
trax i agree with a council it is important to get the opinions of you seasoned members
in this scenario are we all familiar with our geography or were some on the road, need to know where each member stands on the familiarity of the area ie hunting fishing scouting wild edibles ect..

fvr i respect your wisdom, as we have chewed some of the same dirt so i will be looking to you for your help you can talk and split wood at the same time eh?

[FVR]

Yeh, I can talk and split wood. May take a little break and enjoy a cup of coffee while talking with ya.

Hey, boss is back.

Wonder if those new guys disabled their vehicles after they ditched them? An extra battery and alt. would come in handy.

Those atvs are nice, but they leave a trail a blindman can follow.

[lumpy]

My job was to go behind enemy lines to set up communication relay towers...and hold this position with 8 man.



To quote Will Smith's role in,Men in Black,"Now that's what I'm talking about."
vw has just addressed my two concerns in this one sentence.

1."My job was..."
The mission for this group has yet to be defined.The mission is what drives the military mind.If I'm going to risk my life, then I need to believe in the mission.Believe to the point that the mission is more important than my life, or yours.

2."and hold this position with 8 men."
Notice vw didn't say hold this position by himself.For this group to have any effectiveness in combat its going to have to train as a team.Train to the point that everyone starts thinking as one.

[ryaninmichigan]

Where to start ?

First off...nobody gets to walk in "my camp" uninvited, unnoticed, and armed. Especially in this situation...
Second of all, if you are invited in my camp, you don't get to see my team, or more precisely, you will see what i want you to see.
You are fairly young and i am assuming in good shape (carpenter), you seem at ease with this environment and you have a talky which means there are more of you out there.
I would hide FVR and Wareagle for sure, (but keep Trax to my left) and tell them before your entrance to observe from far away but within scope range...the scope being pointed at you. That leaves me at least 4 guys and 2 girls with me in my book, and 2 you do not know about.

The "others" that were after you are not my concern at this time...you are. And if they were looting a gas station for smokes and chips, i doubt they will venture in the woods...those guys sound like they are lazy predators.

As for the leader position, it is for all of you to decide this. Keep in mind that this is a forum, and while i enjoy writing for lack of being able to do anything else here...i am not thinking about **** all day long. I am first and foremost a marine...
My job was to go behind enemy lines to set up communication relay towers...and hold this position with 8 man. I was a sergeant and the leadership role does not faze me...

Another little info here...i do not shoot to kill...i always shoot to injure, and if possible, a fatal injury within 2 hours...not only this tactic is powerful on the psyche of your enemies for they see fear, death and pain in the eyes of their friends, but if i wound your friend, you will be helping him instead of shooting at me and my friends. Wound one, incapacitate 2 or 3.



I have not given all info needed. I have a background also. One I wish not to divulge (sp?) at this time.. And if I am in this scenario I wanted to “observe” your camp with out you knowing I would and will. I feel a bit of angst towards me for my previous posts. I will post more tomorrow it is 1030 here and I am tired.. Interested but tired. I am sorry everyone about the trucks. They are of course ready and waiting. I left a lot of info out that I thought was common sense.

[FVR]

This goes back to another thread that was posted about a week or two ago

Everyone in the team/group needs to have the same motivation and philosophy for being there. The goal must be the same for all and all must be willing to work towards that goal. If not, get out of the team because you are a liability.

That was a good thread, what happened to it? Lumpy, if you find it read it. It will give you some input on a few of us here. Volwest has already analyzed us, probably has files on us as we speak.

Oh yeh, found my freak'n bino's.



Damn!

That Hatchet Jack was a wild one.


He was living with a female panther.

Two years in a cave
up in the Musselshell.

She never did get used to him.

[ryaninmichigan]

This goes back to another thread that was posted about a week or two ago

Everyone in the team/group needs to have the same motivation and philosophy for being there. The goal must be the same for all and all must be willing to work towards that goal. If not, get out of the team because you are a liability.

That was a good thread, what happened to it? Lumpy, if you find it read it. It will give you some input on a few of us here. Volwest has already analyzed us, probably has files on us as we speak.

Oh yeh, found my freak'n bino's.



Yes but again VW has shut it down. VW if you are the leader cool. Don’t want to go with us? Cool too. Like I said were pulling out in the morning. Good luck to you and yours. I was just trying to make this interesting, go read a book. Good thing you are on the left coast………..

[FVR]

Well, funny thing. I'm not even listed in the group.

Just one man, passing buy, chop some wood, dry wood to keep the smoke down during the day, no fires at night. Smokes easier to see at night.

Always trust my gut.


l'm half horse, half gator,
and a touch of the earthquake.

l got the prettiest gal,
fastest horse...

...ugliest dog this side of hell.

l can out-jump, out-run, throw down...

...drag out and whip
any man in all Kentucky.

[Sarge47]

A. This is it, I have everything I could carry of value with me. I do not expect to go home ever again.

B. Sure he can head out and talk to them. Not me, they had guns and did not seem to care about what they are doing.

C. I radioed the guys they are at your camp with me.

D. It is mid August fall will be here in 6 weeks.

E. Can’t answer that one.

Hmmm, RiM, as a hunter & the cook I might point out that taking rabbits in the summer is not always good. Tule...Tule...Rabbit fever, plus they don't have any fat which needs to be added somehow. Still, it seems to be a peaceful offer. And yes, FVR is with us, we just didn't mention him because we don't want all of our chips on the table either.;)

[owl_girl]

To quote Will Smith's role in,Men in Black,"Now that's what I'm talking about."
vw has just addressed my two concerns in this one sentence.

1."My job was..."
The mission for this group has yet to be defined.The mission is what drives the military mind.If I'm going to risk my life, then I need to believe in the mission.Believe to the point that the mission is more important than my life, or yours.

2."and hold this position with 8 men."
Notice vw didn't say hold this position by himself.For this group to have any effectiveness in combat its going to have to train as a team.Train to the point that everyone starts thinking as one.

I thought the mission was for us to survive and for as many in the group to survive as possible. He said the SHTF, which I assumed meant we are trying to survive it not go on some political mission.
I suppose it would be impotent for me to tell everyone in this scenario that although I can injure someone to protect myself and others, I cant take a life, not fore anyone but especially not for my self, however though I would not kill for the group I would die for the group, if that’s not enough for you guys just say the word and I’m gone, I will leave the group and try to survive it on my own.

[FVR]

Sarge, ya just making me feel all cozy.

Owl Girl, no one is asking you to kill anyone, you don't need to leave. Just don't fall asleep on watch, and if you see something not right make us aware.

Every person is diff., the common goal must be the same, but we all have our jobs to do. A tap on the shoulder, a quiet warning can be more productive than just opening fire.

[FVR]

Now, it's time to hit the sack.

See that tree over thar, yeh that one that's 50' from camp. To the right, I have built a small fox hole. What, you think I cut all that wood for the fire?

It's ground level, when it's my watch, just come over and I will hear you. Don't worry, I will know it's you.

Good night.

Oh yeh, keep the coffee hot.

[owl_girl]

Sarge, ya just making me feel all cozy.

Owl Girl, no one is asking you to kill anyone, you don't need to leave. Just don't fall asleep on watch, and if you see something not right make us aware.

Every person is diff., the common goal must be the same, but we all have our jobs to do. A tap on the shoulder, a quiet warning can be more productive than just opening fire.
Ok. I thought it would be more polite to tell people now instead of waiting until we’re in the middle of a battle lol. That’s cool that your ok with it but it is a team and the team needs to be ok with it. in the mean time im totally cool with keeping watch at night. I have no problem staying awake all night, lol that’s why I chose the name owl girl :cool:

[Sarge47]

I thought the mission was for us to survive and for as many in the group to survive as possible. He said the SHTF, which I assumed meant we are trying to survive it not go on some political mission.
I suppose it would be impotent for me to tell everyone in this scenario that although I can injure someone to protect myself and others, I cant take a life, not fore anyone but especially not for my self, however though I would not kill for the group I would die for the group, if that’s not enough for you guys just say the word and I’m gone, I will leave the group and try to survive it on my own.

You don't have to kill any one, owl girl. Just let someone know if things look out of sorts. In a pinch, just look mean, scream, and wave that machete around, you'll scare the dickens out of most people! BTW, no one knows for sure what they'll do until the time comes.:cool:

[lumpy]

A newbies perspective:
Make fvr and wareagle69 squad leaders in charge of patrols, defensive perimeters,and combat training.
sarge47 will be in charge of supplies,procurement and the coffee pot.
vw will the XO,with the additional duties of operations and intelligence.
Drum roll please.After much agonizing thought,I nominate nell67 as CO.She's old enough not to be stupid and young enough not to suffer from indecision.Plus if she can manage all those pimply faced kids at the ff restuarant,then she can surely manage us.
If you need me I'll be helping fvr chop wood.Maybe he'll share some of that Crown Royal his pictured with in his profile.lol

[owl_girl]

A newbies perspective:
Make fvr and wareagle69 squad leaders in charge of patrols, defensive perimeters,and combat training.
sarge47 will be in charge of supplies,procurement and the coffee pot.
vw will the XO,with the additional duties of operations and intelligence.
Drum roll please.After much agonizing thought,I nominate nell67 as CO.She's old enough not to be stupid and young enough not to suffer from indecision.Plus if she can manage all those pimply faced kids at the ff restuarant,then she can surely manage us.
If you need me I'll be helping fvr chop wood.Maybe he'll share some of that Crown Royal his pictured with in his profile.lol
Now there’s those two words again, the ones that scared m in the first place (combat and train) you want combat training? If someone puts me in combat training I assume they intend for me to kill? And if I don’t would you still accept me in the group lumpy? Or would I be in the way? I need to know.

You sound like your building an army and I’m getting nervous.

[owl_girl]

I suppose I should be more specific. I can’t take a human life. I’m not opposed to going hunting or fishing, though I don’t think I’d be that good at it. I’d love to try spear fishing though. Anyway my point is I was only referring to humans and I’m not a vegetarian.

[owl_girl]

Volwest makes sense so fare. I’m cool with volwest being leader so long as he wants to. Actually I’m a little surprised you wanted to VW. I’d think we’d all annoy you to much lol. Also its easier to hide yourself then to hide a group. And I suppose hiding a small group is easier then hiding a large one…is that why you wouldn’t want more people?

Keep role playing ryaninmichigan. Lets see where this goes

Is anyone out there going to play bad guy or an unfriendly at any point in the game / experiment. Just a thought. In reality we’d probably run into one of those. I’d like to see where that goes.

[nell67]

Now there’s those two words again, the ones that scared m in the first place (combat and train) you want combat training? If someone puts me in combat training I assume they intend for me to kill? And if I don’t would you still accept me in the group lumpy? Or would I be in the way? I need to know.

You sound like your building an army and I’m getting nervous.

owl_girl,combat and train should not scare you,it could save your life,it does not mean that you have to kill,just put up a good fight and while your at it make some noise,it wont get too far before someone from our group hears you and they will be there,even if that help comes through the scope of a gun from a distance.

If you dont survive, we dont survive.Would I kill someone to save you? Yes,or die trying.

[Sarge47]

owl_girl,combat and train should not scare you,it could save your life,it does not mean that you have to kill,just put up a good fight and while your at it make some noise,it wont get too far before someone from our group hears you and they will be there,even if that help comes through the scope of a gun from a distance.

If you dont survive, we dont survive.Would I kill someone to save you? Yes,or die trying.

Nell, I'm promoting you to Corporal at least! Hooah!:rolleyes:

[ryaninmichigan]

Where do I start? VW, I am making this up based on Sarge’s original thread. The one where I was already accepted into the group. The part about coming into your camp is only a method of inserting myself and brothers into said group.

Also who said anything about combat? Relax put your sabers down. The guys looting the gas station were more then likely locals. I don’t think they will want to head this way anyway. All the free stuff is towards the last own. 3 hours away by car.

The rabbits we just happened to see so we shot them. We are not living off rabbit by any means. It has only been 1 day.

I am interested in forming a community where we all have something to bring to the table. Nothing more.


Any way just finished Breakfast and we are getting ready to pull out to get to the lake. The sunrise was red this morning. I think we need to get going so we can stay out of the rain.

[trax]

Volwest, your first response was virtually impeccable. You can PM me if you want to tell me how you knew to put me on the left.

FVR, you were definitely always part of the group, a couple of pages ago I nominated you as a potential leader.

I can see RiM's point that he was trying to only keep things rolling based on the original posting, I'm cool with that, like I mentioned yesterday I was rattling on beyond where I had permission simply because there were few others here.

Owl_Girl, if we as a group are ever in a "combative" situation, there's a lot to be said for someone who can protect one's back if one is sniping. The ability to remain still, observe surroundings and warn if necessary. No one can watch all directions at all times no matter how good their training ergo, you're still helping group members. I'm sure anyone who has posted here so far who is capable of packing a rifle and squeezing the trigger will agree with me on that one.

Can't respond to everything I've read to date, cool to see everyone jumping in though.

[lumpy]

Thanks owl-girl and rim.I was getting a little carried away.This certainly isn't about combat.(btw-I've never done that.)Substitute survival training for combat training.After all we aren't out to harm anyone unnecessarily. We just want to be left alone to practice our survival skills until this TSHTF situation plays itself out and everything gets back to normal.I still think the training is necessary to convince other groups,who may be less prepared than ourselves,that they had better leave us alone.

[owl_girl]

Thanks owl-girl and rim.I was getting a little carried away.This certainly isn't about combat.(btw-I've never done that.)Substitute survival training for combat training.After all we aren't out to harm anyone unnecessarily. We just want to be left alone to practice our survival skills until this TSHTF situation plays itself out and everything gets back to normal.I still think the training is necessary to convince other groups,who may be less prepared than ourselves,that they had better leave us alone.
That’s reasonable enough

[trax]

That’s reasonable enough

It is indeed. I find the different twists that the possible scenario takes interesting, none of us know what might really be until it happens, and...the level of preparedness and "survival thinking" if I may, seems pretty good over all to me.

[nell67]

A newbies perspective:
Make fvr and wareagle69 squad leaders in charge of patrols, defensive perimeters,and combat training.
sarge47 will be in charge of supplies,procurement and the coffee pot.
vw will the XO,with the additional duties of operations and intelligence.
Drum roll please.After much agonizing thought,I nominate nell67 as CO.She's old enough not to be stupid and young enough not to suffer from indecision.Plus if she can manage all those pimply faced kids at the ff restuarant,then she can surely manage us.
If you need me I'll be helping fvr chop wood.Maybe he'll share some of that Crown Royal his pictured with in his profile.lol

LOL! lumpy,I feel my bones creaking already!Feel better knowing you are right up there along with me HAHAHA!

[trax]

So, if we stay with the scenario as RiM has laid it out, he and his are heading for a lake tomorrow, are we..the group, travelling with them? That's if I'm still following all this correctly....:confused:

[owl_girl]

So, if we stay with the scenario as RiM has laid it out, he and his are heading for a lake tomorrow, are we..the group, travelling with them? That's if I'm still following all this correctly....:confused:
Doesn’t sound like it from what volwest said.

[owl_girl]

So what are your plans volwest?

[trax]

RiM described the "unfriendlies" as "mildly armed" I don't know them but if anyone thinks I'm only mildly armed when I have a hunting rifle is making a mistake that is potentially fatal.

owl_girl said our mission is to survive. I agree absolutely, whatever that takes.

If I've been hunting out there for two days, I already know the location of the lake that RiM is heading for, Marscroft hasn't weighed in lately but I'm sure he would too. Scouting is only part of hunting. Animals go to water. In case we as a group decide to not join RiM and group, but head for the lake at a future date.

Sentry/Lrrp duties....blend in perfectly with the same skill set as one uses hunting. My preference would be sentry duties from say...11 pm to 5 am, can hunt before and after and catch some sleep midday.

And Sarge...yeah that coffee's improving, keep up the good work :D

[wareagle69]

first off to owl girl, even in combat situations we have support units ppl who can feed us, which you have already shown me an aptitude for wild edibles and also as a healer so rest easy youngster that we will support you and protect you.

rim, for some reason you always seem to ruffle my feathers don't know why yet, but contrary to your post you would not be able to observe our base camp w/o being detected yourself, i am not saying this out of ego i am saying this out of fact, as it was my job for six years.

as for fvr you are always welcome at my fire, i will need to rely on your wisdom at council.

[FVR]

Here is the story.

RiM is sitting outside our camp for 30 plus minutes deciding if he wants to come in.

He sees Sarge, Owl Girl, Nell, does not see Trax or any hunters. He sees me back off cutting wood.

He does not see WE who while out on patrol, heard vehicles. He rendezvous with Lumpy (two Rangers). Lumpy is working his way back from whence RiM came. WE has his cross hairs on RiM.

RiM makes his move. He is no dummy, he holsters his pistol, slings his rifle. But, the pistol thong is not on, and he carries his rifle muzzle down, on back, easy to pull around and fire. WE picks this up.

WE has been radioing VW. VW is aware that RiM us coming in. He shouts, Hello the camp. As any woodsman knows, if you don't, you get shot. Even in the 21'st century.

First person to meet RiM is Sarge, with a pot of coffee and two cups. He gives RiM a hot cup of coffee, thus tieing up his one hand. VW is pissed, WE still has the crosshairs on RiM, but needs to re position for any other visitors. The woodcutter has dis., Rim has noticed this. WE can not get the woodcutter on the radio, WE is really mad, VW is getting their.

WE calls Lumpy, Lumpy throws his scope on the woodcutter, he's gone, well, he has a rifle pointed at RiM. He is located behind the woodpile. Lumpy radio's WE, WE radio's VW. VW's back is covered. WE knowing this fades off and re positions.

VW comes out and he and RiM speak. RiM has noticed that there are a few deer hanging, but no hunters. The woodcutter is gone. He asks VW, and is informed that the woodcutter has him in his crosshairs.

They talk.

What do they talk about? I don't know as my radio is dead.

RiM gets up and leaves. When he passes the perimeter, the woodcutter backs off and re positions on the other side of camp about 60 yards out. Why, because RiM knows the other position.

WE picks up RiM when he works his way back to the atv.

Where is Lumpy?


VW calls Sarge and the woodcutter to his shelter where he advises both of them of his concerns. WHY THE HELL WERE THEY ABLE TO SEE OUR FIRE!

Sarge and the woodcutter leave. Sarge spreads out the coals more, the woodcutter makes damn sure all the bark is off the wood and that it is dry, no green.

[FVR]

Later that night, I work my way over to the wood pile. WE sneaks out and says "what's wrong with your radio" I reply it's dead.

Oh.

However, we followed pre set proceedures for visitors coming into camp.

WE takes a shot of Royal and dissapears. Again.

WTF is Lumpy?

[FVR]

What is happening here is just what would happen for real.

VW and RiM's pers. conflicts.

The fear of being over powered.

The fear of having to do something that you don't think you can do.

Questioning authority.


When RiM leaves, he knows: There is a woodcutter with a gun. Must be a hunter as they have deer. There are a few woman. Sarge makes good coffee.

What he does not know, WTF is WE and Lumpy and if they even exist.

[FVR]

What, you mean writing this book.

[wareagle69]

six yrs army ranger
trained as a sniper/lrrp and as a medic.
rode bulls for yrs(not a valuable skill but i got balls)
professional record as a cage fighter 6-1-0
wild edibles are my passion.

weapons
got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive cause a country boy can survive
hey that's catchy someone should write a song.
9mm
sks
ak47
30-06
300 weatherby magnum
.45
all in storage where my new government can't see it but still legal in my old country.
whitetail II compound bow.
several good hunting knives

well versed in muay Thai, brazilian ju jitsu and knife fighting.

and a wife who can handle her own.(plus she's easy on the eyes which keeps me in a good mood and don't have to worry about snuggling w/ trax) oh yeah i also have norm.

[wareagle69]

hey fvr did i miss something you said two rangers in the woods?

[FVR]

Isn't Lumpy a Ranger?

[wareagle69]

was that in a post somewhere,also question for the dungeon master here but what time of year is it here.

[FVR]

My bust, he's Airborne.


High-Speed, Low-Drag

[wareagle69]

saw that at least he made it thru my jump school at benning so he has chewed that same red dirt as you and i.

[owl_girl]

We do have to talk about this a little bit.

"i can't take a human life" sounds strange because from a logical point of view...saying i can't means that one tried. If it is not the case, "i can't" does not fit the sensation you are referring to. We cannot here unroll the red carpet of humanistic views, and even though it is mentioned here and there we cannot talk about religious beliefs either. So what are we left with ?

My personal views on this are of little interest to your "getting nervous".
So let's look at it pragmatically. If someone wraps their hands around your neck, and starts squeezing, what do you think is going to happen ?
You will not be thinking about the pros and cons of killing someone, your rationalization, ideas about life or moral standards will be far from your realm of responses available to you at this time.

You understand that we are here entertaining dramatic scenarios, where we as a group would be in a situation that does not allow for doubts.
I do not want to burst your bubble here...but you have already taken human life by getting to that ovule first...millions of possible others were denied life for your survival journey started when you swam up that egg. I know it sounds corny and somewhat far fetched...but think about it.
I am not even going to talk about our role in the death of many more through our political, economical, moral, religious, and who knows what ways. Directly or indirectly, killing is what keeps us alive.

You believe human life is above all other creature...i don't.

Would you be in the way ?
That is a question for you to answer.

Combat training is silly...not everyone is a warrior. If you are not, good, at least you know your place, but killing has nothing to do with being a warrior or trained for it. You can tomorrow get in your car, and kill a family of 4 while going to pick up ice cream. I know, it sucks to realize that killing is around the corner everyday. But all of this negates this "i can't take a human life" statement.

We can talk more about that if you want...
Ok fine I’ll say I won’t purposefully take a humane life if that makes more sense. If someone were strangling me I wouldn’t try to kill him, I’d try to get away and if he died it would be an accident and not a conscious choice. If I were thinking clearly I would not make the discussion to kill. If someone’s pointing a gun at someone I can step between them and take the bullet myself or try to distract them in some way or use pepper spry something like that but I’m not going to try to kill them. I’m ok with talking about it if you have anything else you want to say or questions you want to ask.

[Fog_Harbor]

I expect Mad Max to roll by this forum any minute now....

[owl_girl]

My plans ?

You mean our plans...i thought i was pretty clear on my position.
But i am listening.
I wasn’t exactly referring to rather or not we should go with them. I was wondering more about what do we do next.
But I think some people are still wondering if we should go or not.
I don’t know what all the advantages and disadvantages about going to the lake are and obviously its impossible to know all that could happen. Maybe we should talk about why we think we should or shouldn’t go.

[owl_girl]

first off to owl girl, even in combat situations we have support units ppl who can feed us, which you have already shown me an aptitude for wild edibles and also as a healer so rest easy youngster that we will support you and protect you.

rim, for some reason you always seem to ruffle my feathers don't know why yet, but contrary to your post you would not be able to observe our base camp w/o being detected yourself, i am not saying this out of ego i am saying this out of fact, as it was my job for six years.

as for fvr you are always welcome at my fire, i will need to rely on your wisdom at council.
Thanks wareagle

[owl_girl]

I cant keep up with all these posts lol

[ryaninmichigan]

Here is the story.

RiM is sitting outside our camp for 30 plus minutes deciding if he wants to come in.

He sees Sarge, Owl Girl, Nell, does not see Trax or any hunters. He sees me back off cutting wood.

He does not see WE who while out on patrol, heard vehicles. He rendezvous with Lumpy (two Rangers). Lumpy is working his way back from whence RiM came. WE has his cross hairs on RiM.

RiM makes his move. He is no dummy, he holsters his pistol, slings his rifle. But, the pistol thong is not on, and he carries his rifle muzzle down, on back, easy to pull around and fire. WE picks this up.

WE has been radioing VW. VW is aware that RiM us coming in. He shouts, Hello the camp. As any woodsman knows, if you don't, you get shot. Even in the 21'st century.

First person to meet RiM is Sarge, with a pot of coffee and two cups. He gives RiM a hot cup of coffee, thus tieing up his one hand. VW is pissed, WE still has the crosshairs on RiM, but needs to re position for any other visitors. The woodcutter has dis., Rim has noticed this. WE can not get the woodcutter on the radio, WE is really mad, VW is getting their.

WE calls Lumpy, Lumpy throws his scope on the woodcutter, he's gone, well, he has a rifle pointed at RiM. He is located behind the woodpile. Lumpy radio's WE, WE radio's VW. VW's back is covered. WE knowing this fades off and re positions.

VW comes out and he and RiM speak. RiM has noticed that there are a few deer hanging, but no hunters. The woodcutter is gone. He asks VW, and is informed that the woodcutter has him in his crosshairs.

They talk.

What do they talk about? I don't know as my radio is dead.

RiM gets up and leaves. When he passes the perimeter, the woodcutter backs off and re positions on the other side of camp about 60 yards out. Why, because RiM knows the other position.

WE picks up RiM when he works his way back to the atv.

Where is Lumpy?


VW calls Sarge and the woodcutter to his shelter where he advises both of them of his concerns. WHY THE HELL WERE THEY ABLE TO SEE OUR FIRE!

Sarge and the woodcutter leave. Sarge spreads out the coals more, the woodcutter makes damn sure all the bark is off the wood and that it is dry, no green.


There are many assumptions that sets me up to be removed form the group. (Never said I had a rifle, the radio would have been covered. I would not unholster the side arm unless something was going to die soon.)

ANYWAY


Hello to the camp is universal yes I would have yelled that. Good way to not get shot.

I guess I stepped on some egos by saying I observed your camp. I guess you guys were the best and never lost any exercises. I am not that big a man. I have, I am not the best but I am pretty well train in recon. Anyway. I don’t think I can offer anything else to this thread. At the start I was in the group, now it appears I am not. WE I am not sure why you do not like me.

This has not gone the way I thought it would I am sorry I posted this scenario. Oh ya two of us caught more then enough today. The other two have built a nice temp shelter and we have selected a sight for our permanent residence.

[Sarge47]

VW, I was waiting for somebody to metion taking an inventory. Also we need Recon. How many other people know about this lake? Are they already there? Do they have "fields of fire" laid out? Are they ready to shoot 1st and ask questions later?

Trax, you also mentioned a bigee, that wild animals will go to the lake to drink. Also a great water supply that nobody has mentioned yet. Not to mention fish. This is late August so Nell won't be planting any veggies for a while. It's "hunting cattail" & Burdock" for the cook, Owl-girl, and Nell. The upside is that the lake will give us the advantage of having one direction blocked in case of anybody wanting to rid us of our gear, goodies, and lives.

FVR, You missed one thing about the cook, he's always rubing his back because of the pain he gets at times from the Kidney stones he suffers from. Coincidently enough there is also a pistol holstered "cop-style" just an inch or two from his hand.

WiN, don't leave! Look how many posts your "scenario" has spawned. You even made Owl-girl's head swim and I don't think anybody else here has done that.:D Don't give up, you did this great, look at all the discussion.:eek:

One final question, don't we want "high ground"?:confused:

[owl_girl]

Yes inventory… I was wondering about that. I was going to ask if I mist something. Hey do we have any animals with us like guard dogs or something?

[ryaninmichigan]

VW, I was waiting for somebody to metion taking an inventory. Also we need Recon. How many other people know about this lake? Are they already there? Do they have "fields of fire" laid out? Are they ready to shoot 1st and ask questions later?

Trax, you also mentioned a bigee, that wild animals will go to the lake to drink. Also a great water supply that nobody has mentioned yet. Not to mention fish. This is late August so Nell won't be planting any veggies for a while. It's "hunting cattail" & Burdock" for the cook, Owl-girl, and Nell. The upside is that the lake will give us the advantage of having one direction blocked in case of anybody wanting to rid us of our gear, goodies, and lives.

FVR, You missed one thing about the cook, he's always rubing his back because of the pain he gets at times from the Kidney stones he suffers from. Coincidently enough there is also a pistol holstered "cop-style" just an inch or two from his hand.

WiN, don't leave! Look how many posts your "scenario" has spawned. You even made Owl-girl's head swim and I don't think anybody else here has done that.:D Don't give up, you did this great, look at all the discussion.:eek:

One final question, don't we want "high ground"?:confused:


Ok I will stick around. Our gear which I will detail tomorrow. (Much to do in the a.m.) Anyway it is well concealed and our permanent spot on high ground is taking shape nicely.

We all have some military background but that is not our primary concern. We have plans and will kill when needed. We would rather not but is an option that is at the top of the list. We do not own the lake but we do own our stuff and we are taking possession of the walking distance around our camp. Like I said we are here to survive and be as happy as possible. But do not confuse our kindness with weakness. I would think based on some posts most here will understand that statement.

Not sure how many know about this place. There is not a home within walking distance.

Also my brother in-law’s lab, Max, is not an attack dog but nothing gets past him. So he is our alarm… So form your group VW I see 3 that are starting to think about where I am headed…. Not trying to start a fight with you BTW,

[FVR]

RiM,

Just assumptions hoss. The rifle and sidearm is what I would have and the actions I typed would have been the actions I would have taken.

Of course your sidearm would be holstered, would it be snapped in?

I don't think you stepped on any ego's at all. But realize that you would not be the only one observing. This group has a few mil. men and that brings a whole new dynamic to the group.

Actually, it may bring problems in the future. Mil. and civilians act diff. in many situations. Call it training or exp.


So, what did you and VW talk of? He's still pissed about the fire and my radio, although, I had his six all the time.

I very much liked the scenario because it is very realistic.

[owl_girl]

Maybe he has something in his inventory that we don’t and we something that he don’t. How much would putting our inventories together improve our chances for survival?

Is your dog noisy RiM?

[ryaninmichigan]

Maybe he has something in his inventory that we don’t and we something that he don’t. How much would putting our inventories together improve our chances for survival?

Is your dog noisy RiM?

our dog will bark at anything that moves or smells

[owl_girl]

our dog will bark at anything that moves or smells
That could be a problem if your trying to keep a low profile.

[Sarge47]

I appreciate where your coming from on not wanting to kill. Killing is an extreme measure and will probably only happen in an extreme situation. Here, for you, is "Sarge's Self-defense Kit in a Can!" Your main worry would be if someone grabbed you. If they shoot or stab you you're worm food and there's nothing you can do about it. When people grab people it's usually all "above the waist", around the shoulders, and maybe keeping your feet placed so you can't move them. Use your head, literally. The nose is a tender area and forget the bogus Hollywood rap that you can kill a man by driving the nose bone up into the skull. The skull is a lot thicker than the bones of the nose. Crushing them causes a lot of blood to flow and a lot of pain, which can give an attacker something else to think about. Your best weapons beside your head, if you can use them is your feet and knees. Forget the groin area on a male attacker; kiddo, we've been instinctively protecting that area since we were babies. It's not a primary target, but secondary or even further back. The shin, however, is one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body. You ever bang one into something? Hurts like the dickens, doesn't it. The instep is a great target as well. All those little bones crush easily under the full weight behind a boot heel. The knee cap area is also a weak point, as is behind the knee to drop someone. The throat if exposed is a perfect spot to punch or chop if you free your hands. The Kidney area will stop someone if you can hit it and here's the little known trick that Hollywood always seems to miss. If you can free up your hands above the persons head, cup your hands and hit the ears directly over the ear canal. It's called "boxing the ears" and can rupture the eardrum rather quickly. One last word, only use these tactics in times of real danger! Peace.;)

[survivorman.]

what are you guys doing????

[owl_girl]

I appreciate where your coming from on not wanting to kill. Killing is an extreme measure and will probably only happen in an extreme situation. Here, for you, is "Sarge's Self-defense Kit in a Can!" Your main worry would be if someone grabbed you. If they shoot or stab you you're worm food and there's nothing you can do about it. When people grab people it's usually all "above the waist", around the shoulders, and maybe keeping your feet placed so you can't move them. Use your head, literally. The nose is a tender area and forget the bogus Hollywood rap that you can kill a man by driving the nose bone up into the skull. The skull is a lot thicker than the bones of the nose. Crushing them causes a lot of blood to flow and a lot of pain, which can give an attacker something else to think about. Your best weapons beside your head, if you can use them is your feet and knees. Forget the groin area on a male attacker; kiddo, we've been instinctively protecting that area since we were babies. It's not a primary target, but secondary or even further back. The shin, however, is one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body. You ever bang one into something? Hurts like the dickens, doesn't it. The instep is a great target as well. All those little bones crush easily under the full weight behind a boot heel. The knee cap area is also a weak point, as is behind the knee to drop someone. The throat if exposed is a perfect spot to punch or chop if you free your hands. The Kidney area will stop someone if you can hit it and here's the little known trick that Hollywood always seems to miss. If you can free up your hands above the persons head, cup your hands and hit the ears directly over the ear canal. It's called "boxing the ears" and can rupture the eardrum rather quickly. One last word, only use these tactics in times of real danger! Peace.;)
Thanks Sarge. Those are good tips, I’ll remember that. :D
Ho and boxing the ears I learned when I was 8. I also know if you hit someone in the back of the head where the neck and head connect it will knock them out, I learned that from my uncle, also my brother did that to our cousin when they were playing/wrestling. Also if you hit someone in the stomach aim right under and between the rib cage then push up on impact. I have a lot of guys in my family and they give me a lot of tips.

I never had to use any of those but there were times I thought it might come to that. I would only use them if I had no choice. The last two I listed I'd be careful because if I hit to hared or do it wrong it can be fatal.

Its always nice to get more tips.

[survivorman.]

what are you guys doing? or talking about? I'm so confused.:confused:

[owl_girl]

what are you guys doing? or talking about? I'm so confused.:confused:
Role-playing

[survivorman.]

thats what I thought. rpg huh? cool.

[Sarge47]

Thanks Sarge. Those are good tips, I’ll remember that. :D
Ho and boxing the ears I learned when I was 8. I also know if you hit someone in the back of the head where the neck and head connect it will knock them out, I learned that from my uncle, also my brother did that to our cousin when they were playing/wrestling. Also if you hit someone in the stomach aim right under and between the rib cage then push up on impact. I have a lot of guys in my family and they give me a lot of tips.

I never had to use any of those but there were times I thought it might come to that. I would only use them if I had no choice. The last two I listed I'd be careful because if I hit to hared or do it wrong it can be fatal.

Its always nice to get more tips.

It's also nice to have an uncle (& others) to teach you stuff like that. I studied Karate for awhile, but I found I didn't care for all the drills, work-outs, Katas, & what have you. Surprise is still a good weapon, If people don't expect much from you, when you do respond it gives you more of an edge. I always like the "code" that the instructors had, though. Just enough to get the job done, & no more. Jiu Jitsu is, in my opinion, better than Karate because you don't have to be an Arnold Swartzenegger to use it effectivly. You wind up using the other person's strength against them. However, karate was useful in a few areas. For example I learned that if I bring my elbow straight back into the hollow of a person's chest I can do a lot of damage. I also liked the ""cross-body" blocks as well. After all these years I never had to use any of this, however, and that's a good thing, right?:D

[owl_girl]

It's also nice to have an uncle (& others) to teach you stuff like that. I studied Karate for awhile, but I found I didn't care for all the drills, work-outs, Katas, & what have you. Surprise is still a good weapon, If people don't expect much from you, when you do respond it gives you more of an edge. I always like the "code" that the instructors had, though. Just enough to get the job done, & no more. Jiu Jitsu is, in my opinion, better than Karate because you don't have to be an Arnold Swartzenegger to use it effectivly. You wind up using the other person's strength against them. However, karate was useful in a few areas. For example I learned that if I bring my elbow straight back into the hollow of a person's chest I can do a lot of damage. I also liked the ""cross-body" blocks as well. After all these years I never had to use any of this, however, and that's a good thing, right?:D
Yes that is a good thing you never had to use those lol.
I’m kind of interested in pressure points / nerve points just because I like the idea of incapacitating the attacker without causing them any real or permanent damage.

[Sarge47]

Yes that is a good thing you never had to use those lol.
I’m kind of interested in pressure points / nerve points just because I like the idea of incapacitating the attacker without causing them any real or permanent damage.

Jiu Jitsu teaches pressure points, throws, holds, and a little kicking and hitting. Google it and you should find some books on the topic. I did use it a little when I was kid, but never had to really mess anybody up. Lock up there wrist, push on a pressure point, and if you're a skinny kid doing it, well there's that "surprise" factor I spoke about earlier. They were quick to back off.:D

[owl_girl]

Jiu Jitsu teaches pressure points, throws, holds, and a little kicking and hitting. Google it and you should find some books on the topic. I did use it a little when I was kid, but never had to really mess anybody up. Lock up there wrist, push on a pressure point, and if you're a skinny kid doing it, well there's that "surprise" factor I spoke about earlier. They were quick to back off.:D
I have a friend like that. I don’t know exactly where she stands on the killing part, but she knows some effective pressure points lol, and even though she’s little she has fought with the big boys especially if they were hurting a little kid or animal. She’s brave or stubborn either way she won’t back down. You would never expect her to do some of the thing she dos. She’s like that eagle taking down a deer, she’s the closest thing I’ve ever seen to a warrior. Yep she’s been in a few survival situations lol

[wareagle69]

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.

[Sarge47]

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.

Where's Norm? Where's the knife?:D

[ryaninmichigan]

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.


The lake I am on is 15 miles out. Are you talking about my lake with the RVs? It is not accessible from any road so I am surprised you thought you seen RVs. Maybe you are the one with the Shrooms. Your night patrol took you 15 miles out? Kind of a long way don’t you think? Maybe if you were not hiking 15 miles you might have seen SM coming in.

[trax]

No formal military training, some training in kung fu and boxing. Approximately 40 years on and off of hunting, scouting, tracking and trapping experience. I am capable of being very stealthy in wooded and grassland areas. I'll be bringing two scoped hunting rifles, a .243 and a 30.06, both bolt action repeaters w/ 4shot magazines. I can make a green apple sitting against green tree bark into apple sauce @ 100 yards without the scope, I can do more damage than that at greater distances with.

I'll have one rifle with me at all times, one in camp with whoever's on the job while I'm out or sleeping knowing where the second rifle is if they need it. I will also be carrying a small hatchet and a 5" skinning knife which I keep razor sharp.

I can also adapt my sleep cycles to meet the necessity of the job, but yes, if we have enough people the guard duty should be broken up into smaller shifts. It makes for more alert guards. People should also learn to patrol randomly, rather than on a set patrol, if they don't know that already. It makes it more difficult for anyone who might be an unfriendly to figure out how to gain access to our camp.(Indian trick!) I agree with volwest that all life matters, not just human, and when it comes to taking any life...it is something I take very seriously, but if it's the job that needs to be done, I will not hesitate. I'm not looking for trouble with anyone (my comment about pre-emptive strikes still stands, if it's what you have to do....do it)

If I'm scouting an area for game, I'm going to have a good idea of all the water sources in the area, creeks lead to lakes, tree lines drop off on the horizon at lakes,etc. Even if I haven't made it to the lake yet, I know where it is. Any information I pick up while hunting/scouting is reported to VW, WE, FVR et al upon my return. If Sarge's coffee keeps me awake, I'll give FVR a hand with the wood before I knock off

[trax]

Kind of got away from the inventory thing:

1 small tent w/tarp-style tent fly, 4 ppl could squeeze into
a big, down sleeping bag
coffee pot and cup and melamine dishes for two ppl (kit came that way)
1 lb each, coffee and sugar
2 boxes of 500 wooden matches
400 rounds for each rifle
bino's
one extra change clothes, outdoor gear, fleece jacket, not camouflage
waterproof boots
aforementioned firearms, knife, hatchet
knife sharpener
no food...that's it, left in a hurry

LMAO at VW's sleeping pills, "Lullabye and goodnight and where are your friends hiding?...."

[owl_girl]

Activated charcoal, tea tree oil, other oil, bandages, salt, 2 blankets (alpaca wool), sleeping bag, a towel, cup, canteen, Katadyn Pocket Filter, water sanitizer tablets, small pot, cast-iron pan, magnesium flint, true flint & steel, lighter, magnifying glass, flashlight, batteries, pepper spray, fixed blade knife, folding knife, knife sharpener, finger nail clipper, multi tool with spoon & fork, whistle, pen & paper, a couple books on natural resources, hand sanitizer, soap, toilet paper, and some personal hygiene produces

Clothing: socks, hat, a really good jacket, sweater, 3 shirts, 4 sets of pants, snow pants, winter boots, gloves, hiking boots

It seems the animal thing is of interest and volwest did ask so…I value all life and I have a soft spot for animals, I would never hurt an animal for no reason, but if I had to choose between an animal and a human I’d choose the human over the animal, but I wouldn’t choose a human life over a human life, and I know you probably find me hypocritical but I’m honest.

[ryaninmichigan]

-sleeping pills (50...RIM should start feeling it by now with Sarge's coffee...lol)


I assume this was a joke.

[trax]

I assume this was a joke.
but are you getting drowzy, bro? :D

[trax]

I'll drop 'em, gut 'em and skin 'em, but I would surely appreciate a hand packing the meat back to the camp. Anyone???

[ryaninmichigan]

but are you getting drowzy, bro? :D

I don't drink coffee:D

[owl_girl]

I'll drop 'em, gut 'em and skin 'em, but I would surely appreciate a hand packing the meat back to the camp. Anyone???
Sure I’ll help

[trax]

Sure I’ll help Thanks owl_girl!

[trax]

I could use a clearer picture of how many people we're talking about in our group. Can we do some kind of roll call here? It matters in relation to food provision, so it matters first and foremost to the hunters and gatherers. We can also look at best disbursement practices once all of the edibles have been inventoried.

Basically, a couple of deer are a good start, but I need to drop a moose. If RiM et al are moving on, will we look at them as potential trading partners down the road? They seemed honorable and friendly in my humble opinion.

[trax]

Does that mean you're not going to help me and owl_girl pack meat back to camp? :rolleyes:

[trax]

It is a fact brought on by neurobiologists that there is no specific spot in the brain for "good" or "bad", for those notions or values depend on cultures and time...............

.........

Long enough Sarge ?
Say yes! For the love of God, DO NOT ask for more details!! LOL!:D :D

[owl_girl]

volwest was there a specific point you were coming to? If there was could you sum it up in a way people with shorter attention spans can retain lol?

[trax]

awww....I thought that long post kinda meant "birds of a feather flock together" then I thought..mmm....goose..mmm

I'm kidding, you know that right?

[trax]

Of course...Hey want some coffee ?
(hehehe)

sighting down rifle....eyes getting heavy, should pull trigger on deer...(yawn)....rifle seems...heavy....eyes drooping....should shoot deer...why does deer look like my right boot? (yawn)...shoot, then maybe a short nap....

[owl_girl]

Ok so the motivations of your post is to expose the motivations of the group lol :D ok I think I got it... I hope

Its not that I’m not trying to pay attention, it’s just hard to retain all that some times.

[wareagle69]

rim
i quickly tire of you 1st we are a team if i am out on patrol other members would have picked up on SM coming in.
2nd if you cannot read my post properly right in front of you how can i trust your judgment or your word.
3rd if you want to up and qiut because you cannot read my posts properly what does that say about you and your need for acceptance that everyone sees you as a big man just because one person does not like me is of no concern to me, my squad members may have not liked me because i was hard on them yet my squad came home alive....they respected me.that it my mind is more important than friendship.

[trax]

rim
i quickley tire of you

Have you been having coffee with volwest? Sorry man, just had to, it was out there waiting to be asked :D

[Sarge47]

It is a fact brought on by neurobiologists that there is no specific spot in the brain for "good" or "bad", for those notions or values depend on cultures and time.

The plasticity of the mind is so that what is good for us can be bad for someone else, and what is bad for us in a certain situation is no longer bad in an other. Everything being based on survival and the memories of what is unpleasant.

The mind does not remember much or not at all of what is good, or what brings on pleasure.
But it knows about reward, and some neurons are constantly on duty to make sure it happens.

In fact we remember very well what a punishment is. Punishment is discomfort. When a being, a rat or a man in training accomplishes an action, which results in pain, they will try to learn a different action to avoid this pain, and even more if there is a reward at the end. Circus animals are educated this way...the hard way, and then the reward way.

What beings look for at all time is the end of the tension(s) which creates pain, and "growing up", or learning, is the discovery of ways which bring us to this release and which end a certain suffering. This learning process is even more reinforced by rewards, meaning the presence of a certain habit, which will set in place the rewarded behavior.

We only look for a tension when we know the possibility to end the said tension. The orgasm is cloned on this model.

In other words, we do not like being tense, unless we know the way to relax.

If we put in place a little experiment...and we twist our arm in a new position which creates after a while a tension, a certain pain or discomfort...it will not be long before we start looking for the way to lower the level of energy which we cannot channel. If the unpleasant position is maintained because we cannot change it, it will become a new position and will be forgotten.
The body can sometimes get use to very unpleasant positions and make do with it...those positions become "normal"...(giraffe women)

It is the same for everything, ideas and thoughts. To accept an idea from someone is unpleasant for it creates a friction with our daily thoughts. We do not listen to music that make us tense, but rather a music which offers us the possibility to bring back our energy level closer to "zero". It is the same for all organisms, from Man to crystal...
The balance is obtained when the level of energy is endlessly brought back to the lowest level.

"...To the concept of negation, corresponds very well the fact that in psychoanalyses, we do not find "no" coming from the unconscious, and that the re-cognition of this unconscious by the self is always expressed by a negative form. The proof is the reaction from the patient when he says: I did not think that...I never thought of that."
Freud

We can therefore understand that everything we do, say or think is in most cases a negation of what bothers us, a refusal of what hurts us, a release in rapport with what pains us.
Where are our affirmations in this endless negation? Where is our power of decision in this automatic search of what makes us suffer, in the automatic search of what brings us a certain reward, or in general, what comforts us and binds us to the image we have of ourselves ?

This affirmation of ourselves, this auto-contemplation, as solid as a rock and as unshakable as DNA is not a voluntary decision, it is not an affirmation of a choice or of a preference...this affirmation is the result of the negation of everything else.

I decide to go see a movie. Is it a free willed based decision? Or is it the negation of many other possibilities, which we do not accept, or even don't think about, that are hidden and that does not appear in our attention but can appear in therapy or in a profound reflection on the essential reasons for our behavior...
All of our ambitions, all of our hopes, all of our intentions are free willed? Or are they what remains in our imagination or in our habits, or simply the obligation to respect the direction that our society invites us to endorse in order to be socially accepted?

Our actions are the negation of what we cannot do, our thoughts are the negation of what we cannot think, our words are the negation of what we must silence. We perceive what we have learned to perceive, we feel what we must feel by negation of what we must not or cannot feel to be human, to be part of humanity.
We are what we did not allow ourselves to be, by obligation, by ignorance, or by intellectual dependence, by lack of freedom of comprehension.

Our mind builds itself, and therefore builds our relationship to the world on, and by negation.
We are conditioned by the negation of everything that is not us.

The repressed is our true nature; we are the negation of our repression, the denial of our true nature.
But we believe we are a gigantic will, an affirmation, a coherent intention...when we are nothing else but "no".

So?

" To be or not to be" that is the question indeed.
And an answer can arise...if we are negation, if we cannot affirm our being but by the refusal of what we are not...Being is first "not being", to no longer BE.
Being is not ex-isting.
Being is in-sisting.

In fact, if we want to be conscious we must diminish the energy that we dispense towards life, or that life takes from our bank without asking. We have to admit to ourselves that we have never been free to decide anything, and that we have always carried a decision or a will which was "the negation of", more than an " acceptation affirming that". We have never been free because our life, through its sweet tooth for energy has prevented us from being more conscious, or in rapport with sensation, with pure perception.

Tensions nourish our consciousness, and the resolution of tensions makes us fall into the trap of rewards.

"I cannot take a human life" is a negation.
The sensation of guilt recalls the maintaining in the minds of individuals of a feeling of belonging to a group.
This guilt will arise when the individual feels that he no longer conforms to the laws of the group to which he wants to belong to, through the needs of defining himself and claim his part of happiness.

The feeling of guilt is an attachment to our minds by ways of adopting an idea, an opinion that we must defend.
The size of the group will be in direct relation to the size of guilt...more people, more guilt to deal with.

When we look at animals, we can observe that they all have traditions, they belong to groups, and they transmit those traditions and feelings of belonging to each others with this mechanism that binds them to follow the rules and laws put in place which are an other way to regulate fear within the group.

Laws and rules arise during the association of similar individuals to regulate power struggles and the distribution of tasks in order to ensure the survival of the group and each individual belonging to the said group. Laws regulate the tensions of the group as a whole but also reduce tensions within individuals.

When laws and rules appear within a group, the individual sees a promise of security, and therefore a better chance to reproduce himself. The representation of his own reproduction and the transmission of himself and of the informations that concerns him and the group to which he belongs to are enlarged to become the representation that the group has of itself.

The individual has no longer an individual based fear but a fear stemming from his own mind which will ironically increase by the simple fact of belonging to a group.
Beyond the sensation of security that units the group, the group itself will become an "individual" with fears of it's own and the need to regulate it's own tensions and reproduction of itself in order to find infinite "life" and therefore will try to assimilate other groups...etc.

Fear amplifies therefore, from cells to tissue, tissue to organs, organs to organisms, organisms to social groups, social groups to nations...

Long enough Sarge ?

Okay VW, here's a question to something I learned at the Jr. College I attended in Sociology 101: "What 4 things does a society have to have in order to survive? Note, "society", not an individual. Let's see if your the man I think you are.:rolleyes:

[FVR]

May need to do a night jaunt, stretch the legs a little.

I bring to the table;

8 years USMC (3 years 1st Recon Bn.)
Mnt., desert, jungle, cold weather warfare schools
lrrps, patrols
MOS is mechanic, jeeps, 2, 5, 10 ton, Hummer, and Dragon wagon.
No formal martial arts, yet, however USMC hand to hand combat trng.
Rebuild motorcyles, cars, blowers, air comp., and a variety of other things.

Equipment;
308, 350 rounds
357 da revolver, 150 assort. 357/38
50 cal. cut down, 3lbs powder, 300 p caps, and lead.
Poncho liner
Mil. and civ. wool blanket
SS and copper pot
4 canteens & cup
Kabar, two throwing bowies, one mil. style hawk.
extra pair bdu's & socks
possibles kit.
Bino's
min. 1st aid kit.
Mocs
About 8 boxes of those brkfst granola bars.
2 8 pc set wrenches, reg. and metric
2 philips, 3 flat blade screwdrivers
1 10 pc socket set
1 plier
1 cutter
1 lockjaw


in a pack basket.

If I grab the truck;

F-250 4x4, 3 tool boxes fully loaded, gen. air comp., 100 extra gal of gas.
One pole tent
One gal. green paint (it's a white truck)
and whatever else I can heave into the bed.

[FVR]

My two cents.

Lake sounds nice but I do not want to be on the side of it. Too much exposer.

I thought we were on high ground already.

I kind of like the place we are in now, if we need to move, let's get to it. Would not mind sneaking up to that lake and putting in a couple turtle traps. Snapper soup sounds good, fine dining if you ask me.

While back up behind camp, found a honey bee hive. Going to try to get some honey tomm., sure would be good in Sarge's coffee.

Hey, if we are staying here, we better build a latrine or something.

I hope those guys up at the lake don't go peeing and crapping where the waste finds itself into that lake.

WE, If you see RiM, let them know I fix motorcycles. Could trade off.

[Sarge47]

Okay wolves, I didn't hike in, I drove a bus. Got it off the lot. Yeah the lot was locked but I got keys, all the drivers do. Drove it home and loaded up all the grub, MRE's included, coffee, sugar, flour, even gallon jugs of water. (Really do have everything but the bus!) Took me two days to unbolt all those seats, but I got it done. I've got tents, sleeping bags, Yeah, extras never hurt. My guns, two .22s and a single barreled 12 ga. with some double ought, slugs, and small game loads. (Hey, I live in Freakin' Illinois!) My Ruger 10/22 is scoped and I have a couple of 30 round banana clips for the intense stuff, and lookin' forward to having VW, FVR, WE, or TRAX help me sight it in. Got the ..22 Ruger Mark II in it's holster, and in the middle of my back. Got every blade i own and all my military clothing, including 3 sets of Poly-Pro thermals, Gore-tex parka, fleece jackets, 4 prs. of combat boots, 1 pr. Jungle (G-T), 1 pr. G.T. Desert, @ Black leather, one of which is G.T. lined as well. 2 prs, of binos, Silva Ranger compass, Air-force signal mirror, enough 550 cord to do lots of lashing...and on & on. I barely make it into camp when I run out of fuel, but that's okay, this thing,ll make one bit*hin' shelter! Strangely enough, I only get a grudging nod from everybody, and some comments like "well, at least he left the kitchen sink at home." & "Do you believe it? There ain't a single bottle of booze anywhere in all that crap!" Sorry guys.:o Lately I've been spending my spare time trying to teach Owl-girl 'self-defense" but have gotten tired of gettin' my butt kicked! SM has wandered in with some younger wolves, Wild Goth (WG), and Survivorman (SMII) Sm has put them to work setting up booby-traps & big snares as well as digging pits with pugi stakes in the bottom. (Hmmm, note to self, get SM to have a nice long talk with VW as soon as possible!) I've saved every tin-can we've used for food. When I opened them I left the lids partially attached. The small stream nearby, (probably runs off into the lake) has about a million stones so I've dumped a few into each can and had SM help me string them across the trails on all the ways into our camp using 550 cord. Good chance anybody tries sneakin' up on us they'll give away their position! Well, gotta go and make more coffee, FVR, Trax, WE, & VW have been really hittin' it...I suspect FVR has dumped some Seagram's Crown Royal into it...

[FVR]

Got the honey, about a half gal., few bee stings no biggy.

WE, noticed a set of mountain lion tracks north of the camp, watch your back.

Found some hackberries out past the woodpile. I think there is enough for a pie, most are sweat, few tart ones.

Sneaking back into my fox hole for a few zzz's.

What watch am I on?

[ryaninmichigan]

rim
i quickly tire of you 1st we are a team if i am out on patrol other members would have picked up on SM coming in.
2nd if you cannot read my post properly right in front of you how can i trust your judgment or your word.
3rd if you want to up and qiut because you cannot read my posts properly what does that say about you and your need for acceptance that everyone sees you as a big man just because one person does not like me is of no concern to me, my squad members may have not liked me because i was hard on them yet my squad came home alive....they respected me.that it my mind is more important than friendship.

I will respond tomorrow, but I have no idea what you are talking about. you did not even awnser my question.........

[owl_girl]

Other wise, i am liking our spot too...and if this is it, a more permanent shelter has to be thought off before fall...with maybe a root cellar ?

I think a root cellar is a good idea. Also maybe we should be smoking some meat soon.

[Fog_Harbor]

Fight nice, children.

[FVR]

Guard Duty times

During daylight hours, one person watch as camp is active. You need to work out your duties around your watch times. If there is a conflict, contact WE or FVR.

No sleeping, alcohol consumption, smoking, or sleeping on duty. Your screw up can cost us our lives.

Be watchful for not only people, but for the mountain lion who's tracks have been found.


2100 to 2400 Vol-West & Nell

2400 to 0200 FVR & Foggy

0200 to 0500 Wareagle & Marscroft


0500 to 0800 Owl-Girl


0800 to 1100 Lumpy

1100 to 1300 Wareagle

1300 to 1600 FVR

1600 to 1900 Sarge

1900 to 2100 Trax


Trax, we need to know if this will conflict with your sleep and hunting schedule.

[Sarge47]

Hey Sarge...
I like your question...and if we think about it i am sure we could come up with different answers since "have to have" is once again a relative concept...and unfortunately, i have to make my answer short for i already exceeded my 5000 words for the day...

Here is my answer...

-population
-culture
-material products
-organization

According to Barny Hoskins, my sociology prof. back in "The Day" here's what he taught.

-Food (Includes water)
-Shelter
-Clothing
-Religion.

He got a lot of flack on that last one as this was in the "God-less" late 60's, early 70's. Yet no one could come up with anything to prove him wrong, not even me, and back then I was an Atheist/Agnostic. As for talking to SM, if you don't think he's a bit "over the top" with the Punji Stakes, maybe you can find a use for him.:confused:

[FVR]

If the camp is accessable by vehicle, then I will bring the truck in but I will have to follow WE as the 250 is heavy and may need a pull. Can't do mud, it goes right to the bottom.

If camp is not accessable, then the truck will stay cached. It is located about 6 miles back towards RiM's vehicles. I found a new growth area off to the left that I could drive over. Felled a tree across my tracks when I drove off the main trail.

I may need a pull out of the spot I parked it. I drove into a slight low area, painted it green and covered with young pines. I have two come alongs, and tow low.

[Sarge47]

I got my bus in on an old logging road that's not very discernable, then I drove through the woods and barely made it into camp. A school bus is built like a tank with steel sides. I oughta know, ask a certain semi-driver. When you take the training they show you a cut-away of the steel reinforcing ribs. Make a good defensivive bunker of sorts....;)

[FVR]

I'm sleeping in a freak'n foxhole and you got a bus parked right down the road!

I woke up last night with a darn snake wrapped around my leg, I'm shaking, pulling, throwing and it's one of them bright green garder snakes. I wake up and there are spiders in my hair, and you, you have a bus?

Man, I missed the boat.

I have coyotes walking past my little hole, just wondering when that mountain lion is going to want to get cozy. Does it have air?



Fine! Crawling back into my hole now, maybe tonight a rattler will come and visit. Ooooooo, breakfast.



He was living with a female panther.



Two years in a cave
up in the Musselshell.



She never did get used to him.

[DEET]

I've decided that I don't want to spend the cold northern winter alone. So after watching the goings on at this little camp I scoped from the far ridge I know they haven't seen me since I have remained well covered from my observation post. I have spotted 5 armed men and one armed wood cutter as well as two women. The men appear to have military training by the way they dealt with the visitor to their camp a few days ago and the fact that they have rotating sentry duty. Unfortunately it seems they have no interest in anyone joining their group since the messenger that came to them from the other group returned with what apparently was bad news and they quickly left for a lake that i can see in the distance, I don't care for the exposed position near the lake and I'm not sure if that group is freindly or not since I haven'y been able to recon them properly from this distance. To move to a closer position would mean I'd have to go through the other groups perimeter. I make my decision to try and satrt a dialogue wiht the group in the woods next to that big *** bus. I decide that my only recourse is to expose myself in a clearing with my rifle shouldered and the offering of a deer and wait for their response.

[lumpy]

I'm sleeping in a freak'n foxhole and you got a bus parked right down the road!



Isn't sarge just in keeping of military tradition.When I was in the field, the supply NCO always managed to find a cozy vehicle to sleep in,while the rest of us would be freezing our arse's off.:)