Camping or surviving?

[Sarge47]

There seems to be a problem here where the lines between survival and camping are getting blurred. It is my educated opinion that if you sit down, plan it out, then do it and everything goes according to plan, that's camping, not survival, even if you're duplicating survival skills and using you're survival gear. The type of camping is the question. For example, TBWN's are not going out to survive, they are going camping, minimalist camping to be sure, but camping. They've laid out their plan, made their equipment list, short as it is, and are going to leave soon. If &/or when it all goes "south" then they'll find themselves in a survival situation. People like myself & Marscroft who take everything they can into the woods are the other end of the "camping" spectrum. Oddly enough, those who plan properly and carry the right amount of equipment and knowledge into the field never really run into a survival situation. This is the 1st of several posts on this thread that I'm going to do to see what you folks think. Starting out here is "defining survival". Now you all know what I think, tell me what you think!:confused:

[ryaninmichigan]

Oddly enough, those who plan properly and carry the right amount of equipment and knowledge into the field never really run into a survival situation. This is the 1st of several posts on this thread that I'm going to do to see what you folks think. Starting out here is "defining survival". Now you all know what I think, tell me what you think!:confused Marscroft who take everything they can into the woods are the other end of the "camping" :

So if you take what you need aren’t you in fact surviving? And not taking what you need is a survival situation? I guess I will never be in survival situation by your definition, cause I always make sure I have what I need.

[owl_girl]

So if you take what you need aren’t you in fact surviving? And not taking what you need is a survival situation? I guess I will never be in survival situation by your definition, cause I always make sure I have what I need.
Almost everyone has been in a survival situation. It doesn’t have to be a big disaster. Example fighting to get to the surface of the water before you drowned maybe from being in a car that’s trapped under water or from being sucked under a logjam. I watched my friend almost die from getting sucked under a logjam.

[owl_girl]

So if you take what you need aren’t you in fact surviving? And not taking what you need is a survival situation? I guess I will never be in survival situation by your definition, cause I always make sure I have what I need.
He said if everything goes according to plan that’s not a survival situation. Even if you are prepared things can happen to put you in a survival situation, preparing is not guaranteeing your safe return. Lets say you were camping in a forest clearing in the middle of nowhere and you were scheduled to be picked up in about a week by your family or friends who live about a 6 hour drive away and your totally prepared with everything you can think of plus your camp is set right next to a clear stream, well lets say lightning starts a forest fire a couple miles away. that’s an example of how you plans might not work out while camping even if your prepared.

[Tony uk]

There seems to be a problem here where the lines between survival and camping are getting blurred. It is my educated opinion that if you sit down, plan it out, then do it and everything goes according to plan, that's camping, not survival, even if you're duplicating survival skills and using you're survival gear. The type of camping is the question. For example, TBWN's are not going out to survive, they are going camping, minimalist camping to be sure, but camping. They've laid out their plan, made their equipment list, short as it is, and are going to leave soon. If &/or when it all goes "south" then they'll find themselves in a survival situation. People like myself & Marscroft who take everything they can into the woods are the other end of the "camping" spectrum. Oddly enough, those who plan properly and carry the right amount of equipment and knowledge into the field never really run into a survival situation. This is the 1st of several posts on this thread that I'm going to do to see what you folks think. Starting out here is "defining survival". Now you all know what I think, tell me what you think!:confused:
I agree Sarge with what you are saying

"Survival - Survival techniques are skills that may help one to survive dangerous situations. The most common skills are the ability to swim, climb, light a fire and find shelter, although it depends on the situation. There are several books that teach one how to survive in dangerous situations, and schools usually tell kids what to do in case of earthquake and fire. Some cities also carry contingency plans in case of a major disaster. "

[Sarge47]

Both Tony UK & Owl Girl got it figured out, although Ryaninmichigan(RiM) has a point too. I'm waiting to see more responses before I hit you all with the next one!:rolleyes:

[wareagle69]

call it camping or practicing primitive skills whether or not i bring every thing or nothing a survival situation is when your life or well being is put into jepordy even if i am out walking the dogs in the woods and i fall and break my ankle chances are this is not going to be life threatening, even by off chance i'm stuck all night i can light a fire crawl around and gather enough wood to keep me warm, i once walked for two days and drove an old 69 ford stick after a rodeo when a bull called forced labour stepped on my ankle breaking it in two places, my life was not in peril i just adapted to the situation drove home and went to the hospital(drove from colorado to phx)got yelled at by the wife but..

now a survival situation is going out for what was suppoesed to be a 45 minute mission being stuck all night in a fire fight no food no water and lots of pissed off skinnys all messed up on khat.(sp)

[Tony uk]

Both Tony UK & Owl Girl got it figured out, although Ryaninmichigan(RiM) has a point too. I'm waiting to see more responses before I hit you all with the next one!:rolleyes:
Now we've got something to wonder about ;)

[ryaninmichigan]

He said if everything goes according to plan that’s not a survival situation. Even if you are prepared things can happen to put you in a survival situation, preparing is not guaranteeing your safe return. Lets say you were camping in a forest clearing in the middle of nowhere and you were scheduled to be picked up in about a week by your family or friends who live about a 6 hour drive away and your totally prepared with everything you can think of plus your camp is set right next to a clear stream, well lets say lightning starts a forest fire a couple miles away. that’s an example of how you plans might not work out while camping even if your prepared.

pack your **** and head out........

[Sarge47]

call it camping or practicing primitive skills whether or not i bring every thing or nothing a survival situation is when your life or well being is put into jepordy even if i am out walking the dogs in the woods and i fall and break my ankle chances are this is not going to be life threatening, even by off chance i'm stuck all night i can light a fire crawl around and gather enough wood to keep me warm, i once walked for two days and drove an old 69 ford stick after a rodeo when a bull called forced labour stepped on my ankle breaking it in two places, my life was not in peril i just adapted to the situation drove home and went to the hospital(drove from colorado to phx)got yelled at by the wife but..

now a survival situation is going out for what was suppoesed to be a 45 minute mission being stuck all night in a fire fight no food no water and lots of pissed off skinnys all messed up on khat.(sp)

It's when the situation is "life or death", everything else is just "playtime"! There have been cases where properly prepared people breezed through a survival situation but they are few. Here's a scenario that is far fetched but could happen; RiM is out in the woods with some "know-nothing nimrods" (NNN, not to be confused with TBWN) A pit viper strikes, hits him in the throat and he does a "Steve Irwin", IOW...he dies. The NNN are left on their own without the expert guidance of one of our Wolf brethren. Reverse that, The snake strikes, just missing RiM, who slips, losing his footing as well as his pack, Rifle, Mortor, .50 Cal, and anything else his family might have decided to bring along, down a steep embankment. With language that Chris won't allow here, RiM slides down the embankment after his coveted arsenal, only to wind up in a valley with no apparent way out. Worse, he's lost his portable armory and starts to resemble "Burt Gummer" on a bad day. He finds his compass and map & his knife is still on his belt along with some 550 cord wrapped around his waste and some Trash bags in one of the pockets of his BDU's. Shrugging it off to experience and hoping his family doesn't realize their loss of firepower, Burt...I mean RiM, sets up a camp, traps a rabbit, drinks from a stream, and calmly kicks back to be rescued 48 hours later by a wandering group of Brownies out on a hike from the park's playground only 200 yards away that he didn't notice because of the heavy brush. Both are survival scenarios, just different kinds. Next well be discussing the validity of camo clothing vs. bright colored, naming your knife or other gear, And what does "over the top" really mean.:cool:

[wareagle69]

no more cafeine for sarge...

[ryaninmichigan]

Here is the deal. You need to define “survival”. I survive everyday obviously. I can swim, climb, and fight. All very well. Am I a survivor?
I would like to think so. Will I allow myself to be dropped off in the Michigan woods in November with nothing but a tee-shirt and jeans? No. that is dumb. I will not risk my life to “test” myself. Do I do surprise camping with my brother in law where you only have 15 minutes to get ready? All the time… So I again ask what is the point? I will never be in the wild with out the most basic things, in the event everything goes south. IMO that is part of what being a survivor is all about.. Quick check list for a day a field. Bottle of water, leatherman wave, magnesium fire starter, pack of smokes, if hunting, shotgun, or rifle. With that alone I am good for a few days if need be. Now head to the U.P. and go out for the day in millions of acres no one around? My pack gets a little heavier. I have spent more then one night out up there by the way that I was not planning on and it was nothing more then an unplanned camping trip to me…

[ryaninmichigan]

It's when the situation is "life or death", everything else is just "playtime"! There have been cases where properly prepared people breezed through a survival situation but they are few. Here's a scenario that is far fetched but could happen; RiM is out in the woods with some "know-nothing nimrods" (NNN, not to be confused with TBWN) A pit viper strikes, hits him in the throat and he does a "Steve Irwin", IOW...he dies. The NNN are left on their own without the expert guidance of one of our Wolf brethren. Reverse that, The snake strikes, just missing RiM, who slips, losing his footing as well as his pack, Rifle, Mortor, .50 Cal, and anything else his family might have decided to bring along, down a steep embankment. With language that Chris won't allow here, RiM slides down the embankment after his coveted arsenal, only to wind up in a valley with no apparent way out. Worse, he's lost his portable armory and starts to resemble "Burt Gummer" on a bad day. He finds his compass and map & his knife is still on his belt along with some 550 cord wrapped around his waste and some Trash bags in one of the pockets of his BDU's. Shrugging it off to experience and hoping his family doesn't realize their loss of firepower, Burt...I mean RiM, sets up a camp, traps a rabbit, drinks from a stream, and calmly kicks back to be rescued 48 hours later by a wandering group of Brownies out on a hike from the park's playground only 200 yards away that he didn't notice because of the heavy brush. Both are survival scenarios, just different kinds. Next well be discussing the validity of camo clothing vs. bright colored, naming your knife or other gear, And what does "over the top" really mean.:cool:

I do not carry all that crap. I assume you are joking. Camo vs. bright. The question is what are you trying to do be found or not? The answer to the clothing is obvious. Side note. I tried posting my first post and it took forever in which you posted. BTW I like RiM.

[Sarge47]

I do not carry all that crap. I assume you are joking. Camo vs. bright. The question is what are you trying to do be found or not? The answer to the clothing is obvious. Side note. I tried posting my first post and it took forever in which you posted. BTW I like RiM.

Yes I was being very silly,:rolleyes: but It got people to reading and I was stating the obvious: "Chance favors the prepared mind". Your's seems to be prepared, and that's the point. My respect for you has risen a notch because of your statement: "I will not risk my life to test myself!" ;) Survival is a matter of life or death, it might be an "unplanned camping trip", as you put it, or something completely disasterous.(sp?) The less it can take you by surprise, the better? So RiM, (yeah, I like that name too) you started to answer my next question, when would you want to be found? Anybody?:confused:

[ryaninmichigan]

I would want to be found in an unplanned camping trip and did not know the way out. Or if I was hurt. That is about it really. If I am out there of my own accord then I would take the necessary steps to avoid detection.

[ryaninmichigan]

Your's seems to be prepared, and that's the point. My respect for you has risen a notch because of your statement: "I will not risk my life to test myself!" ;):

thank you, I respect you also

[FVR]

Surviving, you want to hear about surviving?

Wife is sick, 4yr old sick, 5yr old sick, and guess who woke up hacking and coughing, no energy, my fingers are even tired. Me, the man.

We are also dog sitting two obnoxious dogs.

Gonna be a loooooong weekend.


Wish we were well and camping.

[Sarge47]

Surviving, you want to hear about surviving?

Wife is sick, 4yr old sick, 5yr old sick, and guess who woke up hacking and coughing, no energy, my fingers are even tired. Me, the man.

We are also dog sitting two obnoxious dogs.

Gonna be a loooooong weekend.


Wish we were well and camping.

Your fingers are still strong enough to type!:rolleyes:

[FVR]

It's a habit. I type between coughs.

[Sarge47]

Awhile back Wild Goth posted he was looking for a pack. I had suggested L.L. Bean's Bigelow Daypack but he declined because it wasn't in camo. When I last visited Buck Knives web-site they were advertising their latest "multi-tool" in "Real-Tree" camo. My position on this is that Buck's purpose in doing so is purely motivated by shrewd marketing. Many outdoors people are sold on the Real-Tree products, and while I agree that they are effective as Camoflage, there comes a time when enough is enough. Drop one of those camo'd multi-tools in the grass and have fun looking for it!

On the flip side, I own a ton of military BDU's in both Woodland and Desert Camo because it's a cheap way for me to get durable clothes with lots of pockets, including cargo pockets. I carry a bright orange emergency poncho and trash bags in case things ever go south. I'd like to hear your opinions as to what do you think about Camo from a survival viewpoint? Is it germain to our mindset or not?:confused:

[wareagle69]

i buy camo in case i need to front to rear disappear but the use bright orange or yellow tape to mark my equipment in more peaceful times to disappear simply remove tape.

[FVR]

I prefer bdu's in the woods for a couple reasons. First they are light, second are pockets, third is that when wet, they dry fast, fourth they are baggy and that helps prevent heat rash's.

Most times when I'm in the woods, I don't want to be seen and they work out just fine.

I prefer the mil. camo rather than the ever so popular fashion driven Bass pro to K Mart sold camo.

As far as packs, I don't care as long as it's a nature color. Browns and greens are good. Boots are either green or black.

When I venture into the woods prim. style, then it's natural colors, lightweight. I have switched from buckskin leggins to a light cotton and muslin for shirts. I have both buckskin leggins and a shirt and they are very fashionable at the rendezvous but I just don't like wearing leather.

EXCEPT when it's really cold. I will put on wool leggins, covered by buckskin leggins, wool socks in double soled mocs with high wraps up to my knees. The breech clout is wool and the muslin shirt will be used under the wool overshirt. If it's really cold then I will switch to a wool shirt, buckskin overshirt, and canvas wrap.

[wareagle69]

i'm more modern my freind doesn't the wool itch like a bugger?

[ryaninmichigan]

i'm more modern my freind doesn't the wool itch like a bugger?

I love wool. i own a ton of it. I also own Browning hydro fleace. For eqipment i tend not to buy camo products. Because I don't want to search for it.

[BillHay]

There seems to be a problem here where the lines between survival and camping are getting blurred. It is my educated opinion that if you sit down, plan it out, then do it and everything goes according to plan, that's camping, not survival, even if you're duplicating survival skills and using you're survival gear. The type of camping is the question. For example, TBWN's are not going out to survive, they are going camping, minimalist camping to be sure, but camping. They've laid out their plan, made their equipment list, short as it is, and are going to leave soon. If &/or when it all goes "south" then they'll find themselves in a survival situation. People like myself & Marscroft who take everything they can into the woods are the other end of the "camping" spectrum. Oddly enough, those who plan properly and carry the right amount of equipment and knowledge into the field never really run into a survival situation. This is the 1st of several posts on this thread that I'm going to do to see what you folks think. Starting out here is "defining survival". Now you all know what I think, tell me what you think!:confused:


Yawn, this is rediculous. Camping " spectrum" ?? Whats the difference? I beleive in your confusion. Defining survival you say? You seem ill qualified to define that. Do you just write well, or do you have any practical knowledge of survival skills? just sayin...

P.S. The ad for Peak Oil after your first post concerns me.

[FVR]

Camping becomes survival when the **** hits the fan. Injuries, sudden climate changes, along with a variety of other scenerios.

I think it was mid to late 60's, up on Lake Superior. Duck hunting season, hunters went out for a leisurly day of duck hunting. A storm blew in, temps dropped severely, hunters could not get out of the marsh's fast enough, birds were actually freezing. What started as a Sat. moring duck hunt turned into death for many.

Just never know when it's going to go wrong.

[trax]

I tend to think that I'm surviving monday to friday 9 to 5 so that I can go camping on the weekends. I think that camo clothing for the most part is a huge marketing ploy. Are we all supposed to feel more Rambo-esque because we've cleverly disguised ourselves as trees? Don't be surprised if a dog walks up and cocks a leg...

[Fog_Harbor]

Never got into the whole camo thing, I have a ghillie suit for stalking, but other than that I wear the same clothes in the woods that I'd wear anywhere.

I've never had an experience with a dog, but I HAVE had birds perch on me and leave their little white markers.

[trax]

Yawn, this is rediculous. Camping " spectrum" ?? Whats the difference? I beleive in your confusion. Defining survival you say? You seem ill qualified to define that. Do you just write well, or do you have any practical knowledge of survival skills? just sayin...

P.S. The ad for Peak Oil after your first post concerns me.

a) a family of five parks their rv at a lakeshore and spends the weekend floating around in a little rubber raft, swimming, barbecueing hotdogs, watching dvds at night, all in a well maintained and monitored "campground" I take a bacpack with biscuits and jerky, my rifle and hunting knife, a tarp and a box of matches and take off 30 miles up the Bloodvein River where there is no one. We're both camping. They are different situations.

b) How do you know how qualified or "ill qualified" he is based on his posting?

c)I didn't see an ad, why does Peak Oil concern you?

d) If it's ridiculous, what does that make a person responding to it? We've had a few postings lately that have degenerated into personal attacks, please don't make this one of them.

[Sarge47]

a) a family of five parks their rv at a lakeshore and spends the weekend floating around in a little rubber raft, swimming, barbecueing hotdogs, watching dvds at night, all in a well maintained and monitored "campground" I take a bacpack with biscuits and jerky, my rifle and hunting knife, a tarp and a box of matches and take off 30 miles up the Bloodvein River where there is no one. We're both camping. They are different situations.

b) How do you know how qualified or "ill qualified" he is based on his posting?

c)I didn't see an ad, why does Peak Oil concern you?

d) If it's ridiculous, what does that make a person responding to it? We've had a few postings lately that have degenerated into personal attacks, please don't make this one of them.

I simply put this guy on my ignore list as soon as I read hi s post. Thank you for telling it like it is!:cool:

[trax]

I simply put this guy on my ignore list as soon as I read hi s post. Thank you for telling it like it is!:cool:

Hey man, team work means we got each other's backs right? :D I figured you can handle criticism, but...I suppose it's all in how we say it. I was thinking afterward that I might have said worse to volwest when we were arguing, but dang it, I've learned to shet the h### up! LOL

[Sarge47]

Hey man, team work means we got each other's backs right? :D I figured you can handle criticism, but...I suppose it's all in how we say it. I was thinking afterward that I might have said worse to volwest when we were arguing, but dang it, I've learned to shet the h### up! LOL

A lot of people don't realize what all that one word means.:confused: When Michael Jordan played for the Chicago Bulls Basketball Team, a lot of people thought he WAS the team!:rolleyes:

[trax]

A wolf pack spots a moose laboring in the snow on top of a frozen lake. Do they all light out after it? Hardly.

Most of the pack circles past the wolf (oh yes, they're fast buggers) The two alpha wolves chase after the moose and start nipping at it's heels, trying to sever the rear tendons. The panicked moose's first response is to run away ...flight before fight, and runs into the rest of the pack. The other pack members lunge for the throat and the front leg tendons and the alpha male will take the final kill shot at the throat. There's now too many wolves for the moose to put up an effective fight. It's ugly to behold. The alphas will feed then drag mouthfuls of meat back to any pups too small to hunt while the rest of the pack feeds. It's actually really gross to see the way predators will start eating before the prey is finished dying, but it happens. It's ugly to behold, but it is awesome team work.

I think I've said this a few times before, so have a couple of others....Go Wolfpack!

[Fog_Harbor]

A lot of people don't realize what all that one word means.:confused: When Michael Jordan played for the Chicago Bulls Basketball Team, a lot of people thought he WAS the team!:rolleyes:

Yeah, it seems that today's multi-media society has bred instant celebrities for everything. It really does take away from the fact that without the other folks in the team, there are no superstars.

[wareagle69]

Yawn, this is rediculous. Camping " spectrum" ?? Whats the difference? I beleive in your confusion. Defining survival you say? You seem ill qualified to define that. Do you just write well, or do you have any practical knowledge of survival skills? just sayin...

P.S. The ad for Peak Oil after your first post concerns me.

wolfpack we are honored to have a true legend among us. welcome to our home bill hay

[spiritman]

wolfpack we are honored to have a true legend among us. welcome to our home bill hay

Do you know something about him we don't?

[wareagle69]

if this is the same bill hay that i know of then yes but i need to read more of his posts to be sure..

[spiritman]

if this is the same bill hay that i know of then yes but i need to read more of his posts to be sure..

Maybe you could tell us of the bill hay you know, like why is he a legend?

[Fog_Harbor]

P.S. The ad for Peak Oil after your first post concerns me.

The Ads are automatic, there's one after every first post.

[wareagle69]

in my humble opinion if bill posts something it comes from vast experience, i do not know why i have not seen his posts here earlier or the friction between him and others, but bill is someone whose opinion and knowledge i do respect he is the real deal boys and girls..

[Fog_Harbor]

http://bill-hay.com/

THAT Bill Hay?

[wareagle69]

i am going to assume so ..

[trax]

yeah, if that's the same guy he sure seems to know his stuff all right, so cool, tell us something from your vast experience bill. On the other hand, people who are on a mind-body-spirit healing journey aren't usually sarcastic and rude (that's why I'm sarcastic and rude, I'm not on that journey) I value and respect anything useful here. Not so sure it's the same guy, myself.

[Sarge47]

Be careful, he knows Karate! If this is the same Bill Hay then he should be more in keeping with the spirit of the Karateka! My kid brother, his wife, and both sons all have black belts in Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do. You youngest son has just aqquired his brown belt in Karate (JKA Style). I, myself studied the Gojo Ru, Style but prefer the "gentle art" of Jiu Jitsu that I had to learn while trying to survive the wilds of the streets of Chicago. (close to the Loop). This "Braggart, Arragant" bit makes me think "Poser"! And if I'm wrong then, Bill, shame on you! Nothing you've been through gives you the right to be a smarta*s!:mad:

[Fog_Harbor]

Yeah it is arrogant. I've met a lot of woodsman, some of whom have been obnoxious, but rarely arrogant and insulting of anothers skills (joking maybe). It's been my experience that woodsman who love what they do are usually eager to teach, and slow to put people down.

[FVR]

Foggy you nailed it.

Some circles it seems that I know alot, other circles I feel like a greenhorn. But in all circles we always educate each other. Funny what some newbees bring to the table.

Why didn't I think of that?

[trax]

Foggy you nailed it.

Some circles it seems that I know alot, other circles I feel like a greenhorn. But in all circles we always educate each other. Funny what some newbees bring to the table.

Why didn't I think of that?

what he said!

[HOP]

And the answer is? To thy own self be true. It appears that no matter what we reply someone shoots down all or part of any idea that is brought up. I think that we should thank any and everyone who post a idea or sugestion, right or wrong we can learn even from bad advice as we can engage our brains and say I don't think that would work very well. We all come from different back grounds and times . No one goes into the bush with out a plan even if you just have a knife and a hank of string and a time to return, if a unexpected event occurs that threatens your well being and you survive it then you have practiced survival. The way I practice these skills that may come in handy is to good camping and the experiment and perfect these skills and see what does and doesn't work. I also think that being rude to people who don't think like me just robs me of potentially valuable infofmation it doesn't cost any thing to be polite usually the person we insult is doing just that.

[wildthing423]

I have taught survival in the military in almost every course offered that had something to do with adaptability to environment / surroundings.
I have sought out and joined and then unsubscribed immediately for the exact same thing as sarge is talking about.

look...what is going on here and in 99% of all the other groups and forums is really "preparedness." True "SURVIVAL" as applied here and there is trying to make do with that which is at hand. Not a game of semantics or word definitions, like I "SURVIVED" a drowning. How many of you are out at work during the course of the day? you are away from your home, perhaps miles, hundreds of miles in some cases. you are in a suit and tie. something unexpected and of epidemic proportions happens. you must survive. you need to live , to find you children, or your mom and dad, your friends and neighbors. so its down to you must "SURVIVE" and adapt...scavenge make use of what you find. create design....LIVE. Live for yourself, for your family, if at all possible. You need shelter, warmth, food, etc. weapons of some sort
because you do not know what to expect. If there is looting, you can expect death and injury. This scenario frightens me as I have many minor children and an autistic son as well. I can not convince my family to even take CPR, let alone anything else, creature comfort mentality will get most people dead in the long term. and lets not talk about "URBAN SURVIVAL". as anyone who has multi theater combat experience will tell you, it is the worst combat and survival situation. does not matter how many buildings are standing and cars etc. there are 13 yr old children that kill on a daily basis, with impunity, they have no developed moral compass. This is my first post and I am not trying to upset anyone, but the fact are the facts. I am scared for myself and my family. I have cancer and an obvious financial setback and I worry what my family and friends will do. I cannot survive in the urban jungle the way things are. can you?!!! I can and have survived in many rural and wilderness settings, but it was either just me or myself and others like me and the rules of engagement, so to speak, were different. we should provide profitable information on the actualites and specifics each according to his/her own specialty that can be applied in the here and now. to learn now, to use now. and all these things that cost so much money do not belong here because money will not help in a major disaster. consider Katrina, do you think that those survivors had no money. likewise, more then 57% of the population is either working from paycheck to paycheck , or poverty level and below. Less then 11% of the pop it above that. the information and reference to resources will help in the here and now as well as in the future. Thank you for listening to my spiel.


Be well and take care


Marcus






There seems to be a problem here where the lines between survival and camping are getting blurred. It is my educated opinion that if you sit down, plan it out, then do it and everything goes according to plan, that's camping, not survival, even if you're duplicating survival skills and using you're survival gear. The type of camping is the question. For example, TBWN's are not going out to survive, they are going camping, minimalist camping to be sure, but camping. They've laid out their plan, made their equipment list, short as it is, and are going to leave soon. If &/or when it all goes "south" then they'll find themselves in a survival situation. People like myself & Marscroft who take everything they can into the woods are the other end of the "camping" spectrum. Oddly enough, those who plan properly and carry the right amount of equipment and knowledge into the field never really run into a survival situation. This is the 1st of several posts on this thread that I'm going to do to see what you folks think. Starting out here is "defining survival". Now you all know what I think, tell me what you think!:confused:

[Sarge47]

I have taught survival in the military in almost every course offered that had something to do with adaptability to environment / surroundings.
I have sought out and joined and then unsubscribed immediately for the exact same thing as sarge is talking about.

look...what is going on here and in 99% of all the other groups and forums is really "preparedness." True "SURVIVAL" as applied here and there is trying to make do with that which is at hand. Not a game of semantics or word definitions, like I "SURVIVED" a drowning. How many of you are out at work during the course of the day? you are away from your home, perhaps miles, hundreds of miles in some cases. you are in a suit and tie. something unexpected and of epidemic proportions happens. you must survive. you need to live , to find you children, or your mom and dad, your friends and neighbors. so its down to you must "SURVIVE" and adapt...scavenge make use of what you find. create design....LIVE. Live for yourself, for your family, if at all possible. You need shelter, warmth, food, etc. weapons of some sort
because you do not know what to expect. If there is looting, you can expect death and injury. This scenario frightens me as I have many minor children and an autistic son as well. I can not convince my family to even take CPR, let alone anything else, creature comfort mentality will get most people dead in the long term. and lets not talk about "URBAN SURVIVAL". as anyone who has multi theater combat experience will tell you, it is the worst combat and survival situation. does not matter how many buildings are standing and cars etc. there are 13 yr old children that kill on a daily basis, with impunity, they have no developed moral compass. This is my first post and I am not trying to upset anyone, but the fact are the facts. I am scared for myself and my family. I have cancer and an obvious financial setback and I worry what my family and friends will do. I cannot survive in the urban jungle the way things are. can you?!!! I can and have survived in many rural and wilderness settings, but it was either just me or myself and others like me and the rules of engagement, so to speak, were different. we should provide profitable information on the actualites and specifics each according to his/her own specialty that can be applied in the here and now. to learn now, to use now. and all these things that cost so much money do not belong here because money will not help in a major disaster. consider Katrina, do you think that those survivors had no money. likewise, more then 57% of the population is either working from paycheck to paycheck , or poverty level and below. Less then 11% of the pop it above that. the information and reference to resources will help in the here and now as well as in the future. Thank you for listening to my spiel.


Be well and take care


Marcus

Quite a spiel indeed. Please hang around as long as you can. We have another member here who suffers very badly in the health arena, but we appreciate your input!

[wildthing423]

Quite a spiel indeed. Please hang around as long as you can. We have another member here who suffers very badly in the health arena, but we appreciate your input!



I apologize for exposing everyone to my case of hoof and mouth disease. I just have been looking at many different forums and groups, google groups, yahoo groups, alt survival and the like, and there is such a leaning toward comfort , like this one group, survival retreat, lets all build a survival condo. truth be told, it is a lighthouse or beacon to others. then there was all those political discussions and flaming on 3 of the groups on Google. You have this American who hates everyone and the British guy and his wife who believes that G.B. will be the only place livable in ten years and all the people from most other parts of the world who just plain hate America. what place did this have in a supposed survivalist group, or rather a group to exchange information to assist and teach and help others in given situations of extreme misfortune. well I just thought that this post of yours was appropriate and spoke exactly what I had been thinking.

Marc

[Sarge47]

I apologize for exposing everyone to my case of hoof and mouth disease. I just have been looking at many different forums and groups, google groups, yahoo groups, alt survival and the like, and there is such a leaning toward comfort , like this one group, survival retreat, lets all build a survival condo. truth be told, it is a lighthouse or beacon to others. then there was all those political discussions and flaming on 3 of the groups on Google. You have this American who hates everyone and the British guy and his wife who believes that G.B. will be the only place livable in ten years and all the people from most other parts of the world who just plain hate America. what place did this have in a supposed survivalist group, or rather a group to exchange information to assist and teach and help others in given situations of extreme misfortune. well I just thought that this post of yours was appropriate and spoke exactly what I had been thinking.

Marc

Wolf brother. Welcome to the Wolf-Pack. You should be comforted to know that flaming is not allowed here. If you see someone posting things not appropriate to survival that's not always a bad thing as we've sort of grown together here and sometimes find ourselves sharing more of our thoughts and ideas as we grow as a group. Finally, it is not a crime to ignore threads you don't feel comfortable about. Recently we had some guys sign up that live in Canada and have planned on going out into the wilds of Manitoba Canada with nothing but their knives and the clothes on their back, filming themselves in the process. Just about everybody here thought they were wrong, and they don't care. Our administrator has since created a blog site for diary/journal entries elsewhere that should work for that very thing. The point here is that they are not banned even though 99% of us feel like there idea is a bad one. Welcome again!

[wareagle69]

i agree with what you have said wildthing as you will learn i always preach

always be prepared.

i go to work on a daily basis with a kit in my van and a plan with my wife to meet if we have to. in about a month she will be at home full time and we will be building a bunker for her to hide out in in necessary and i will be able to make my way home. i have fought multi theater myself in desert and in urban i understand your rant. i too worry about the 13 yr old being able to kill and sleep like a baby i have faced it first hand. i am always prepared to do what i have to to survive which is why i always have my kit close by to help assist me in that en devour. welcome home you will enjoy it here.


rangers lead the way..

[Borelli]

One book i am in the process of reading is actually entitled "wilderness survival" it is a story of the expidition along with instructions on how to mak, build, catch, things like that.

In this book it states that many people first think of a skinny shivering person in a cold cave. but this book also refers to latin words "super vivere" wich super would mean above or superior and vivere meaning to live or life. This can be interpreted as meaning superior living.

This is somewhat true if applied to what we think of as survival in the wilderness,
While i am in the woods i dont have to deal with things such as schoolwork or stressors in general, meaning i feel like i have a better life tere than i do in the city......although that is not always true for everybody.

[Beowulf65]

I agree with wildthing423. And never apoligize unless you feel you were wrong, I liked your 'rant' or 'spiel' and have had several myself. Good writing bro.

[Nativedude]

Wildthing423 wrote:

". . .Thank you for listening to my spiel."

To go off on a writing spiel, tells me that what you have to say comes from your heart and experience. Otherwise you would not write anything at all.

I believe that everybody that writes here, says what comes from their hearts and experiences.

To see someone being misguided, be it through written advice, hands-on teaching, or some other mode, makes us upset. While there are many way to do the same thing, watching or reading what a person teaches or says to another, and knowing that it might be wrong, causes us to take action. Why? Because those of us that react in such a manner do so form our heart.

It is what keeps our "Moral Compass" pointing north!! :D ;)

[Sarge47]

Let's look at "defining Survival", what do ya all think it means? Start at the beginning and work back, then respond if you can. I think it's very important.:cool:

[tracks]

I've been reading some of the older post on this forum, and one by SARGE posted back in Aug of 07 caught my attention."Defining survival" camping vs survival and hands on training and the likes.I believe skills can be taught and techniques can be taught but not survival.Survival is something we have or we do'nt. maybe this is'nt the best example,the old hold dog that moves in low and at just the right time and angle not to get cut.He did'nt learn it he was born with it, born in his ancestors eons ago or the horse that would run through the woods at full stride for what seemed like hours and then stop and take a deep breath and hold it and listen for the dogs then change directions acordingly without somuch as a sound from his rider,not taught behavior, born behavior, we've been trying to harnes this attribute in our domesticated animals for years. Some have it some do'nt people are the same.One example/experiance I had as a teen ager set this in me like stone, four of us duck hunting on the great pee dee late afternoon, "cold as all get out" drift shooting we called it,snaged a log mid boat and capsized , we had planed on camping that night and to hunt the next mourning on our way to the next landing so we were geared up real good. By the time we all made it out of the river none of us had a gun no supplies nothing but the wet clothes on our backs tweenty miles from the nearest road, no one paniced every one striped down and mark whom at the time smoked that wild parsley, got a little case,water proof nontheless and comes out with some ciggarett paper and a bic lighter by day light we had boats every where.... the point is nobody paniced every body was doing something conducive to SURVIVAL and I believe to this day we would have suvived if we had been in the same situation on mars.I't was in our nature...

[Rick]

I have some mixed feelings about that. Certainly, we possess some instinct geared toward survival but I'll bet you could have put any number of people in that same situation and they would not have been able to get a fire going and might have continued wearing their wet clothes trying to stay warm.

I think there is a lot of skills learning that takes place and it begins (if we are lucky) when we are very young. Observing what our fathers and uncles do then mimicking them and finally participating in activities with them. All part of the learning process.

Our survival instincts are like a straight green stick still growing on the tree. Our skills learning draws a sharp point on the stick and fire hardens it so we can do more than just survive.

I'm not discounting your opinion at all. You might well be correct. I just think a lot of animals (including us) learn by mimicking what older, wiser animals do.

[canid]

there was an interesting lab study along these lines involving the survival/struggling inclination of rats. i'll see if i can dig it up.

[tracks]

Point taken.. But thats like applied knowledge,Someone reads a book on how to build a house,knows every detail ,very aspect and yet can't drive a nail.Then you have a person who can't read has no formal education,yet can build elaborate structures,or a person that can do every thing you can imagine,if someone shows them.....I guess thats why some lead some follow and some expect to be carried,or maybe I'm confusing inhereted for instinctive I do'nt know just stuff I have noticed..

[Sarge47]

My original point was more basic, less "psychological" than what you're saying here. It's not that I don't agree with you, I do, however I was trying to define different areas of "outdoor activity". You're delving into the person them self. Everybody has been born with the instinct of "Self-Preservation". If you don't believe me try throwing anybody you know into the deep end of a swimming pool and watch them either swim to the edge & pull themselves out or thrash around TRYING to save themselves, and possibly drown in the process. I'm willing to bet that you'll never see anybody who quite calmly allows themselves to sink to the bottom of the pool and perish unless there's a physical/mental problem to begin with.

For example,I don't believe that anybody is "born" already knowing how to start a fire or build a shelter; they had to learn it somewhere. Unlike the lower life forms on this planet, we have to be taught everything nessasary to sustain life; eating, walking, talking, etc. True, some people might not have the "WILL" to survive, and maybe that's what you're talking about. That, however, does not nessasarily imply that they never had the instinct to begin with, they have probably lost the will to fight for their life over their years going through life being beaten down by an uncaring social system that has the ability to reduce man to a rubble. In other words, either way, the "mind-set" is "aqquired", not inheirited. Remy will probably join in on this a bit later on, it's his "backyard".:cool:

[Rick]

All great points from both of you.

[tracks]

Oh boy ..I feel another nose bleed coming on, your right though sarge it all comes down to the human will. I'm much more suited to the,what's the better rock to throw aspect anyway.....seen some real peculiar animal behaviour this mourning,Might be an interesting subject when the hunting, gathering comes back up

[Catfish]

Camping or Surviving? Don't you think this all comes down to the question of choice? If you "choose" to do it, you're camping. If don't "choose" to do it, but have to in order to stay alive, that's surviving.

Going into the wilderness taking everything you need/want/can carry to make your stay pleasurable (whatever your definition of that is) is camping.

Going into the wilderness to try out survival skills you've read about, or have been shown, or haven't used for a while, is practicing. You may or not use these skills when camping.

When something goes wrong and you're forced to use those skills, not for fun, or for practice, but to save your life, that's surviving.

Yes? No? Maybe?

[Rick]

Well said. I think you are correct.

[Sarge47]

My point exactly, although the idea of "not having fun" is not always applicable. In his book, "The Complete Book Of Outdoor Survival", J. Wayne Fears relates the following:

"I recall fondly one hunter I helped find in Georgia. He had been lost for two days, and when we found him he had established himself a homestead.In fact, he had built himself such a cozy camp that we used it for an overnight rest before packing out.On the way out, he told us that his "ordeal" had been a ball and he planned to get lost again soon"

Now I understand that the above situation is not always the case, but the better one is in the woods, the more prepared they are with the proper clothing, equipment, skills, & mindset, the better their chances are for coming out of it all alive! Just my opinion, what do you all think?:confused::cool:

[Rick]

On the surface, I agree. I think a lot depends on why you got into trouble in the first place.

[Nativedude]

If you purposely go into an area with little or no water, no natural shelter materials or you have to make a shelter from natural materials, and little in the way of food, then you are in a "survival" situation. If you go with all the accoutrements, i.e; tent, sleeping bag, etc., then you are "camping".