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View Full Version : Riddle me this...? why do wilderness guides starve...?



Sourdough
09-13-2008, 05:12 PM
Why does a wilderness guide have to take a part time or temporary other job to stay alive...?

Hunters pay $1,500.00 per day for a guided Alaskan/Canadian Hunt....($15,000.00 for a ten day hunt)

People pay thousands of dollars for Dingle'berrys, black'berries, HD TV, Etc.

If people are so interested in survival, why will they not pay for a guide/teacher...? Instead of coming to the internet why not hire PGVoutdoors...? Or Jason Montana...?

I have to conclude that people new to the wilderness experience are either clueless, or poor (no I don't buy that), cheap, arrogant.....I don't know.

When I wanted to learn to pilot an aircraft, I did not go to the internet...

I am not in the wilderness guiding business, but others on this forum are. Why are they not booked solid....?

If I wanted to learn to do what wareagle just did, I would hire him, or someone with those skills to guide/teach me.

I am not talking here about the young people who are lucky enough to have someone to guide/teach then the ways of the wilderness, like a father or or grandfather.

My question is to those who did not, and now are in there 30's or 40's or 50's they have money for all the things that they really-really-really want, maybe they only want to talk about it, read about it, but not experience it.

People pay to go to Truck driver school, pottery school, writers workshops, But outdoors guides can't get enough students to cover costs.

OK...tell my why........?????? (End RANT)

wareagle69
09-13-2008, 05:19 PM
i think it is because people do not take the bush seriously, they look at is a something that they can conqeour not live in harmony with, they cannot see the actuall danger that going out can put themselves in, they see themselves as invincible why should i hire someone to teach me i am a capable enough fella, i think that is the ones who have gone out and realize what we do not know that seek out the knowledge that we need

when the student is ready the teacher will appear, i was fortuneate for this to happen.

Rick
09-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Set the record start, Hopeak. When you learned to flight a plane Wilbur and Orville were the only teachers. That aside.

You hold a much, much different view of wilderness than most people do. I've been to Alaska and I probably still don't comprehend the vastness compared to your life experiences. 1000 square miles of nothing but nature is hard for people to get their arms around. 100 square miles is more like what they are going to do. Where but Alaska can I toss on a pack and wander for weeks or months and never see anything man made? I sure won't do that in the lower 48. Unless I'm in a few select areas (Everglades, desert, high mountains) I'm going to cross a road or a power line or something that leads me back to people. So why do I need to hire someone to guide me when I know my way home is either over the next rise or just following the sound of those cars?

I'm not challenging your position, just answering your question. If I wanted to do that in Alaska I'd probably be knocking on your door and hope that I can keep up. Same might be true of Northern Canada. But down here isn't as "scarry".

And the other thing, if I am going to pay $15,000 for a ten day hunt I can go to an "open" hunting farm and crop top game in a few hours, drink some beer while someone else cleans up my mess and mounts my rack, packages my meat and sets up a UPS ride home for it.

wildWoman
09-13-2008, 08:52 PM
I don't think you need to hire somebody to learn wilderness survival skills. It would certainly help to learn from a live, knowledgeable person, but anyone with the ability to read and think plus the will to do it can just go and teach themselves. I believe a lot of it comes naturally (or should!), given enough time spent out in the bush. You need to really invest the time, and I don't think a weekend or a couple weeks here and there cut it. WE should be made wilderness survival guru!

klkak
09-14-2008, 12:50 AM
I tried to provide a service for folks interested in learning the skills needed for living in the wilderness. Now I guide tourist on picture taking trips to the "mighty Knik glacier 26 miles from the nearest road" (that is visited by thousands of Alaskans every summer because they are tired of catching and cleaning salmon and need something to do on their weekend to justify buying the ATV's). I think allot of folks want to read about romantic things like living off the land and such because they know they will probably never experience it. I've also found that very few people want to pay someone else to take them "camping". You have know idea how I wish I could make a living teaching folks how to live in the bush. After the second year I had to sell all my gear. It was a dream I just couldn't catch. Now I'm 45 and recovering from my second badly broken leg in 2 years and wondering want am I going to do to make it through the coming winter. Hopefully I'll be healed enough that I can get on one of the up coming Enstar gas line projects. God it is hard on a man my age to work 12 to 14 hours a day outside in sub-zero temp's. I would much rather work my a$$ off 7 days a week all spring and summer and take it easy all winter. But that too is a dream I just can't catch.

klkak
09-14-2008, 12:55 AM
WE should be made wilderness survival guru!

I second that e-motion. So lets take a vote or something and promote WE to the position of "Wilderness Survival Guru".

Rick
09-14-2008, 04:42 AM
Perhaps we should bestow upon him the title Minister of Wilderness for Free Traxistan. What say ye Lord Ruler?

wareagle69
09-14-2008, 07:39 AM
while you guys flatter me with your compliments, i think that there are many more on this website with more knowledge than myself. (pict and pvgoutdoors immediatley come to mind) and yes while i do posses a few skills that allowed me to out in august i still feel that the bush has so much more to teach me, which is why i laid awake lastnight contemplating my next adventure(contract comes up next spring and they think a long strike, at least 6 months which should give me some play time) but this christmas i know i am doing at least one week if not two weeks with the same scenario just what you would have on if you went out in the bush to cut a christmas tree and got lost/stuck for hopefully 14 days

Rick
09-14-2008, 08:46 AM
Do you have a fail safe in place for these scenarios? Survival gear that you carry "just in case"?

As for your comments on the knowledge and experience....No matter how much experience or knowledge you gain won't that always be true? Won't you always be a student and the bush always the teacher with one more thing to learn?

Sourdough
09-14-2008, 09:17 AM
No matter how much experience or knowledge you gain won't that always be true? Won't you always be a student and the bush always the teacher with one more thing to learn?[/QUOTE]


In the final lesson: Death........ the student becomes the master, for he then returns forever to be one with the wilderness. ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

wareagle69
09-14-2008, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=Rick;72431]Do you have a fail safe in place for these scenarios? Survival gear that you carry "just in case"?

shame on you for asking that, i think i have documented before about safe camps, same as i did this time, i had a base camp then would venture out a day to two days travel to practice, but as has been well documented by such experts as gino ferri from survival in the bush inc and many others the most important aspect to survival is psycological. Confidence triumphs over doubt everytime and knowing an escape is close by is always weighing in the back of my mind, its hard to practice realtime when you have an out which i will always have but as most of you know i am always testing myself both in all my former professions and in my future endeavers, but long way around this twink i always advocate a back up camp

pgvoutdoors
09-14-2008, 11:45 AM
I've been involved in wilderness guiding for the past eighteen years. As a guide I instruct many wilderness skills, it's all apart of the job. In my current location here in Ohio I actually do more teaching than normal as this isn't a "destination" location where I'm on call to guide a lot. Other than the Steelhead fishing, all other trips are out of the area. So being an instructor is a very important part of my job. Here's what I've learned...

I offer my training primarily through two methods; private lessons or public group lessons. Looking at the private lessons first; they cater to mostly upper middle income families. These clients are usually looking for specific training and money is not an issue. Time is normally the problem for these people. They work long hours, normally white caller jobs and must plan their time off. Their vacations take them to some of the most exciting places on earth, some very challenging wilderness outings. Their interest in lessons are based on being proficient at a particular skill. As far as wilderness survival skills go, most opp for these lessons out of pure curiosity. Very few are learning wilderness survival as a safety precaution. The ones that do feel a need to be proficient in the woods usually have had at least one bad experience prior to coming to me. That "I'm not going to let that happen to me again" way of thinking. Now don't get me wrong, I do have clients that take training in preparation of a wilderness trip. Sometimes it's when a family is planning a trip and one of the adults feel a responsibility to be prepared for the sake of the rest. Others just want to keep from being on the evening news as a screw-up. The bottom line is that private lessons are only 20% of my business.

Now public group lessons is a different story. These people are normally middle income and hold 9-to-5 jobs. They spend a lot of time in the wild and partake in a variety of outdoor activities. Affordability of the classes is very important as is the quality of the class. By being in a group class, the cost per person is much less than private lessons.

Seeking professional instruction to learn wilderness survival skills has increased over the past ten years. Probably do to the greater availability of the programs. But, most people learn by trial and error. Some read books and experiment, this is a very good method to get started but hard for many people to become proficient. I have countless people tell me that they understand the theory of a skill that they read about but just can't do it. I'm sure we all would agree that hands on training is the best for of learning wilderness skills. Finding a person to help can be a problem though. Paying for help just comes down to how bad the person needs or wants to learn the skills.

pgvoutdoors
09-14-2008, 11:51 AM
P.S. I'm not ALWAYS Starving! :confused:

Sourdough
09-14-2008, 11:52 AM
Thank you...........comprehensive answer.

DOGMAN
09-17-2008, 07:56 PM
Good Question Hopeak, and I think I have a few answers- Cheap and Arrogant.

First off, besides guiding, I also rent equipment and shuttle folks who don't want to be guided on wilderness activities. Often, these folks have solid skills but they are flying to Montana and don't want to carry all the gear along with them. But, more often than not people misrepresent their skill level, and background- assuming they'll be ok. Most of the time they are ok, but often they just barely get through the ordeal, have a miserable time and they now hate the outdoors, or they turned their kids or wife off from the outdoors, because they could not put-up a dry camp, keep a canoe or raft upright, build a decent fire, or cook etc... I get so sick of that. They'll spend several grand on the flight and some new North Face gear, but forgo the expense of a guide because they can "figure it out themselves". In the end these people often waste their money and don't have a good time, because of their own ineptitude and arrogance.

crashdive123
09-17-2008, 09:00 PM
I think you're exactly right. Maybe it's a macho thing. I haven't been to Alaska yet, but when I do a guide is on the list. Same goes for rafting in Montana. You guys know of any good guides?????

trax
09-17-2008, 09:16 PM
Once a long time ago, someone asked us who on this forum we'd want to be with if we were stuck in a wilderness survival situation. There are several people here I'd add to my list that have come on board since then, but WE is still one of the top people on my list and so is FVR. They both were back then too, since then I'd add pgv, pict, riverrat, beo, klkak....I could go on and on. WE could have any position he wanted in Free Traxistan (except emporer cuz the empress said he looks like a horse)

Why don't people go to a live guide instead of the internet? Could be a lot of reasons, immediate availability being one. Also, I've guided people in the past, hunting and fishing. I didn't go out of my way to teach them a heck of a lot, most of them just wanted all the work done for them. You don't learn that way.

klkak
09-17-2008, 09:26 PM
Crash I'd be happy to take you into the Alaska bush.

klkak
09-17-2008, 09:27 PM
Trax, that is a high compliment. Thank you.

crashdive123
09-17-2008, 09:29 PM
Alaska is the only state that I have not visited. It is on the list...not sure when, but I will make it up. When I do I will be sure to look you up.

trax
09-17-2008, 09:31 PM
Trax, that is a high compliment. Thank you.

Well I woulnd't have said it if'n I didn't mean it. "Cept you all have to meet with MDN's and Dad's approval :D

nell67
09-17-2008, 09:32 PM
Trax,your list is acceptable to me.

DOGMAN
09-17-2008, 10:08 PM
Ouch Trax...your hurtin' my delicate ego. I'd love to go out with you into the bush. I guess I've got some more learnin' to do before I can be trusted

trax
09-18-2008, 11:46 AM
Ouch Trax...your hurtin' my delicate ego. I'd love to go out with you into the bush. I guess I've got some more learnin' to do before I can be trusted

No way man, that's why I said I could go on and on, there's several here and you'd definitely be among them. It's been great the number of really good quality wilderness survival people who have shown up here in the last year. I'm absolutely sure I could get some teaching from you too bro. We all keep learning.

bulrush
09-18-2008, 12:37 PM
Camping, one night: $35
No-tell Motel, one night: $39
Guided hunt, one night: $1500
Redbox DVD, one night: $1.06

Well, with my budget I only can get the DVD for one night in my own cozy home. And I'm already paying for the internet, so that's no additional expense for me. There's no way I can afford $1500 per night for hunting. There's your answer.

Riverrat
09-18-2008, 01:17 PM
With me it is easy, I learn from my elders and family so I do not have to pay for instruction. I have been taught from when I was just a wee lad to respect the woods, and how to survive in it. Being on a site like this is great as it shows me different ways of doing things, different ideas. I have picked up quite a few tips while I have been on here, and will pick up more in the future.
The Internet opens up a wide variety of new information, and most of it is free. That is the big draw to it.

DOGMAN
09-18-2008, 01:53 PM
Much of the "guiding and Instruction" I do is more "wilderness travel skills" than it is direct survival. However, wilderness survival plays into it, and people learn from just being exposed to other ways of doing things. People generally use my services because they don't know how to do something, or don't have the equipment... rafts, canoes, sled-dog team, or pack string for horse packing. Hunters that I guide are in it just as much for the backcountry horse packing as they are the kill. Lots of people have general camping, and survival skills, but leading a pack train, or dog team deep in a wilderness area takes a differennt set of skills- so, thats what my clients are normally paying for

BruceZed
09-18-2008, 05:02 PM
Business is 1/3 Skill, 1/3 Marketing, and 1/3 Administration. Most guides and outdoor professional in general have the Skills down pat, a very small knowledge of Marketing and very little Business Administration skills. I took Outdoor Ed in University and only got one business course. I should have taken business and a few choice outdoor ed courses instead. My business would have done much better with the knowledge I gained the hard way much sooner.

wareagle69
09-18-2008, 08:12 PM
Once a long time ago, someone asked us who on this forum we'd want to be with if we were stuck in a wilderness survival situation. There are several people here I'd add to my list that have come on board since then, but WE is still one of the top people on my list and so is FVR. They both were back then too, since then I'd add pgv, pict, riverrat, beo, klkak....I could go on and on. WE could have any position he wanted in Free Traxistan (except emporer cuz the empress said he looks like a horse)

Why don't people go to a live guide instead of the internet? Could be a lot of reasons, immediate availability being one. Also, I've guided people in the past, hunting and fishing. I didn't go out of my way to teach them a heck of a lot, most of them just wanted all the work done for them. You don't learn that way.

ah sucks (turns red and blushes tires to get out the door to go outside but just....can't....squeeze...thru... the...door...
ya know where you and she trax rate on my list brother.