View Full Version : Does this flag bother you?
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 01:58 PM
I was wondering if the Confederate flagg bothered anyone here,
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8301/rebelflaglv6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
It seems to bother the African Americans and with good reason, it bothers my wife also and I could never figure out why people up here in Ohio drive around with it on their trucks, or actually hang it at their house.
The display of the Confederate flag remains a highly controversial and emotional topic, generally because of disagreement over the nature of its symbolism. Opponents of the Confederate flag see it as an overt symbol of racism, both for the history of racial slavery in the United States, and the establishment of Jim Crow laws by Southern states following the end of Reconstruction in late 1870s, enforcing racial segregation within state borders for nearly a century until the Civil Rights Movement. Others view the flag as a symbol of rebellion against the federal government of the United States, as many past and present enemies of the United States such as the Vietcong during the Vietnam War and the Iraqi Republican Guard of Iraq during Saddam Hussein's regime sometimes used the flag. Some hate groups use the Southern Cross as one of the symbols associated with their organizations, including racist groups such as the Neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan. The flag is also sometimes used by separatist organizations such as the Aryan Nation. That is why I hate it, but as far as it being a historic symbol of a tragic part of our history I don't hate it, it's a part of history and the civil war was more than just slavery, still kinda confusing but I do not like the flag for what it stands for today.
crashdive123
08-13-2008, 02:34 PM
I personally have no problems with the Confederate Flag. I think that the problems that arise from it, and why emotions run so high is that those that claim it is just a symbol of Southern Pride did nothing when their symbol was hijacked by hate groups. This is not unlike the current situation with Islamic terrorists. Those peaceful followers of the Muslim faith are doing nothing as their religion is being hijacked by hate groups. It's unfortunate that since nothing was/is being done to counter that hate has caused many to feel that it is a symbol of hate.
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Well put Crash,
for the record this was just me wondering as it has become a big topic here again, it resurfaces every so often. I mean no disrespect to my Southern brothers, my African American friends or family, and certainly not to anyone here and I do not mean to start an argument.
Beo,
smokelessfire
08-13-2008, 02:49 PM
i wish i knew exactly what the flag stood for. i beleive it stands for the south or the southern way of life pre-civil war. if it at all stands for wanting to continue keeping slaves i am vehemently against it and anyone who flies it for that reason should be shot dead on site. i never cared much about the issue until i read things like a slave man had no rights, not even the the right to speak against his master if the master did something wrong such as raping the slave's wife(even right there in front of the man AND his children!!!). if he said or did anything to the master, he was whipped severely, possibly to death, or simply hung. no, i personally will get very violent to anyone who wants to continue this crap.
I just use the flag as a warning signal as I really don't want anything to do with anyone who flies it. I don't know them, their beliefs, or their hatreds. It's better to be safe than sorry.
Most here who respond are white and have never experienced the hate that the flag does propagate, because of it's evolution from a symbol of the south to the symbol of the KKK hatred.
Until you have had that hate directed at you, while the flag is in site, most will not understand. Because it's not a big part in your life. Step into the shoes of those that have a mixed race family, then you will understand. Just like Jew jokes, does not bother you, unless you are Jewish.
The fact that the flag was re-introduced to many southern states flags, during the time of the equal rights push for blacks in the US, after the flag had already been hijacked by the KKK, puts a bad taste in many mouths.
Not all those that fly the flag are hatemongers, but most hatemongers fly the flag.
Why take a chance if it could affect your family?
bulrush
08-13-2008, 03:14 PM
Many problems start when people ASSUME the reason why someone has a Confederate flag. So African-Americans assume a confed. flag stands for racism 100% of the time. They don't even bother to talk with the person who has the flag and ask them why they have it. They have an emotional reaction to it. I'm not saying they are not justified in having that reaction, racism was a large part of the south for many many years. But when you have an emotional reaction to a topic, instead of thinking logically about it, you will not make headway and advance yourself as a person.
Many problems start because of lack of communication and people assume the worst.
As a white person who lives in the north, I always assumed that the Confed. flag meant the person showing it was racist and wanted the country to return to racist ways. No one ever said different until now. Now I know that it is simply a rebellion against the current federal government.
Well, you're up in Michigan. Come on down South, get yourself a Black wife, then go and talk to those that fly the flag.
Some assumptions, just may save your life.
You sound like Obama. Iran wants to completely destroy Israel, Obama wants them to sit down and talk. Israel, screw that, we just about survived the first extermination.
Why take the chance?
This is just so funny.
You see a guy holding a gun, he looks pissed.
You:
A. Take into consideration the environment and get the hell out of dodge. And live.
B. You go up to him and ask him all these questions, and possibly get shot.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. Let me see.....................Hmmmmm.............Live or possibly die................Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 03:35 PM
Well being a Yank from the north, married to a beautiful African American woman and having lived down south for 8 years I agree FVR, we still get looks from people here and down south have been followed until I, with gun in hand, pulled my badge and walked up the group and asked what the problem was.
Here I have had things said to us, stared at and followed up to the 3rd floor of a JC Penny's by a guy and he was a black man, poor dude fell down the escaltors somehow. When it bothers the wife then I get upset, most times we ignore it and go on but its mostly stares we now get. So as FVR said, try living in an inter-racial family and see how you get treated. We get it from both sides of the fence sometimes, but skee-roo-um, I live how I live and if you don't like that your SOL and I could care less.
Sarge47
08-13-2008, 03:49 PM
The name says it all. It is & was an emblem symbolizing a division on our country; which should never even be a consideration. The Civil War started over the issue of slavery; remember the abolishionists who used the underground railway to get our Southern Black Americans to safety? One of the reasons why I really enjoy the movie: "Amistad" is because it shows what the mind-set of some Americans that led up to the Civil War. This flag was hoped by the South to become the new flag of our nation if they would have won the Civil War, but they lost, as did Nazi Germany and Japan during WWII. You might notice that neither the "Swastika" or Tojo's "Rising Sun" are ever displayed now-a-days in either Japan or Germany. I say retire it as the stigma of racial hatred is still present anytime it's displayed. One of it's follower's even assasinated this nation's leader as a follower of what it stood for. There is no way you can "Spin-it" to have it come out as harmless. The South lost, & that's one side of a two-sided coin. It could of just as easy been the North, then where would "Old Glory" be? Stuck in a museum somewhere for everyone to marvel at? The point is the Civil War should have never have happened. Americans do not need to be divided. Not to mention how stupid of a topic it is for us to divide over. Okay, getting off of my soap-box now...NEXT!:cool:
Ole WV Coot
08-13-2008, 04:08 PM
Only a couple of flags bother me and that isn't one of them. I don't have one or anything with one on it. Where I now live 99.9% of the people's ancestors did fight under it. I don't know the reason for flying it now except they are proud of their ancestors and maybe one or two families were slave owners. This part of the country, Southern WV & E. KY folks were too poor to own much of anything. My gg grandpa walked 30 miles to enlist in the 14th KY Infantry Volunteers. Grandpa said he thought damn Rebs was one word. I think the way and who uses it is offensive, This is my personal opinion. My g grandma lived to a ripe old age and she told us about her life. She was born into a huge family, very poor and when she was five her parents "rented" her out to do chores for bed & board. She never went to school, ate leftovers if there were any and went from family to family until she married ggrandpa. She was a slave in everything but color. I would bet some actual slaves lived better than she did. I have many items with the Swedish flag & items passed down writings in Swedish. I am Scotch-Irish-Swedish and a little Melungeon which makes me 100% American. I am now a US sanctioned minority- I am Appalachian-American and the colleges that I know of in Ohio recognize us as such and are given minority status. Take it for what it is, a flag that Americans fought Americans under. Slavery IMO wasn't the main cause of the war and don't have the space to go into that. My opinion only and I sure don't get mad if anyone doesn't agree with me.
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 04:14 PM
I understand Coot, like I said to me it is a historic flag of the U.S. but todays falg is different in meaning so I consider them two different flags. Anyone understand that? I hope so. My dads family is from eastern kentucky/tennessee border area, Harlan county area.
nell67
08-13-2008, 04:22 PM
What I understand is the thing is a peice of material with a design on it that takes on the meaning of the bearer,without the person behind it,it means nothing.IMO.
jrock24
08-13-2008, 04:25 PM
It does bother me because at that time the US was split, it is no longer that way and the people that fly that flag (to me ) seem to want it back that way.
I really don't care because in California not many people have that rebel flag. But it would be like if I (being Mexican ) hung a Mexican flag outside my door in place of a USA flag.
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 04:32 PM
It is dangerous to attach emotions to objects...
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 04:33 PM
It does bother me because at that time the US was split, it is no longer that way and the people that fly that flag (to me ) seem to want it back that way.
I really don't care because in California not many people have that rebel flag. But it would be like if I (being Mexican ) hung a Mexican flag outside my door in place of a USA flag.
No completly different.
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 04:38 PM
Jrock I agree that is different you are Mexican.
ryaninmichigan, emotions started the french & indian war, the revolutionary war and other wars that founded this country. You stick up for your beliefs because of emotions, because of how you feel about things. But I get what your saying.
wildWoman
08-13-2008, 04:48 PM
I don't like the attitude and values of many of the people who sport that flag. Not too many of 'em up here though! The thing itself is just fabric with a design on it, as people pointed out.
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 04:57 PM
I am of German descent. I am 6’4 230lbs, Blonde hair, blue eyes. I shave my head and wear a plain white tee shirt, jeans and work boots everyday. Am I a skin head? Or a regular hard working American?
nell67
08-13-2008, 05:00 PM
A regular hard working man.
Yeah, RiM, go carve a swastika into your forehead and come back and ask me. People are what they are, but RiM makes a good point, people are also, and symbols are, what the individual perceives. Individuals are going to make those perceptions based on emotional rather than logical thinking, pretty much everytime. If I see someone with a Muslim crescent on his t-shirt I'm not going to go ask his opinion of the state of Israel. Similarly, I see a lot of Che Guevera flags and t-shirts, are all those people ready to start some kind of revolution? Probably not. My thinking is, you've got one country, that flag represents when you had two. Now, here where I live, I see a lot of people flying a Metis flag to show their pride in their heritage, it's a royal blue background with a white infinity symbol. My understanding is that the colors were chosen because of the colors of Quebec's provincial flag. An awful lot of Quebec wants their provincial flag to be their national flag...they want out. I think, until that happens, if and when sort of thing, we're one country and we live under one national flag. I've never seen as much national pride among Canadians over their flag as I see among my American friends and it's something I admire about America, so I think if someone wants to fly a separatist flag, tell them to go ahead and try separating and see how that works out for them.
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 05:21 PM
Yeah, RiM, go carve a swastika into your forehead and come back and ask me. People are what they are, but RiM makes a good point, people are also, and symbols are, what the individual perceives. Individuals are going to make those perceptions based on emotional rather than logical thinking, pretty much everytime. If I see someone with a Muslim crescent on his t-shirt I'm not going to go ask his opinion of the state of Israel. Similarly, I see a lot of Che Guevera flags and t-shirts, are all those people ready to start some kind of revolution? Probably not. My thinking is, you've got one country, that flag represents when you had two. Now, here where I live, I see a lot of people flying a Metis flag to show their pride in their heritage, it's a royal blue background with a white infinity symbol. My understanding is that the colors were chosen because of the colors of Quebec's provincial flag. An awful lot of Quebec wants their provincial flag to be their national flag...they want out. I think, until that happens, if and when sort of thing, we're one country and we live under one national flag. I've never seen as much national pride among Canadians over their flag as I see among my American friends and it's something I admire about America, so I think if someone wants to fly a separatist flag, tell them to go ahead and try separating and see how that works out for them.
You might be surprised. Actually probably not, the things that have been muttered my way in Flint Michigan looking this way.
You might be surprised. Actually probably not, the things that have been muttered my way in Flint Michigan looking this way.
Back to what I said about perceptions, bro....((shrugs))
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 05:32 PM
Back to what I said about perceptions, bro....((shrugs))
What I am saying is a perception is what keeps this farce going. That and Jesse and Al. I perceive all Black men to be robbers. Black people perceive me to be a racist. I don’t perceive all Black men as a threat. A lot of them still perceive me to be one. I perceive the A## hole trying to rob, hurt, or otherwise disrespect my family the threat.
I ain't arguing. I recently had to do a presentation at an old folks home and one of the staff wanted me to tell her how she should handle this little old lady who was flat out racist against some of the other old folks, I didn't have an answer for her. But that old gal was in her eighties, wonder what her kids and grandkids think like.......things aren't gonna change overnight.
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 05:44 PM
Some of my friends have parents that are the most racist people I have ever met. They grew up in Missouri in the 40s and 50s. Is it right? Nope. You gonna change them? Nope. That is all they know. This is why Barrack will not be pres. We are still 2 or 3 generations away from a black pres.
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 05:54 PM
Keep thinking that, see me when he wins.
Not that I want him too but McCain is nothing but a Bush, he's as old as dirt 74-I think, and will keep us in wars. But ya gotta pick one and if you don't vote then don't complain, but remember the lesser of two evils is still evil.
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 07:27 PM
Were are pretty much screwed for the next 4 years. But no I don't think Obbama can pull it off. There are to many voting people that grew up knowing nothingbut racisim. Weather you still play into it or not. Deep down people have issues with other races. Science has proven you subconciously, all of us exhibit some form of racisim.
Mr Whichever SuperModerator is Available, please feel free to step up and slap the crap out of the conversation that just turned political, thank you very much.
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 08:02 PM
Yes it did, sorry. End of this thread for me. Next issue please.
VampireRanger676
08-13-2008, 08:23 PM
A symbol is nothing unless a idea is there to support it
that's very philosophical VR, so is an idea nothing without a symbol there to represent it?
VampireRanger676
08-13-2008, 08:44 PM
As long as a idea is believed in it becomes it's own symbol
ryaninmichigan
08-13-2008, 09:05 PM
I gotta an idea. I'm going fishing..
Beowulf65
08-13-2008, 09:07 PM
As in the case of the flag and racial problems by those carrying it and those believing them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
Sarge47
08-14-2008, 12:01 AM
Okay you guys ,now you got me all confused...are you saying that Obama is partial to the Confederate flag?:rolleyes: Anyway, Trax is right, let's leave the politics out of it. Shoot, I ain't tellin' you hooligans who I'm voting for until after the election.:D Nice Link Rick. Vampire Ranger, wise-up! You want to go into the Rangers you best be understanding just how important the flag is!:eek:
Someone want to tell him about the hidden compartment inside/under the flag-pole at all military bases & what it contains...& what the contents are to be used for?:confused:
Maybe we should start a new thread entitled: "What is a Flag?":cool:
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 12:33 AM
I can understand people's resentment of the flag of my forefathers but I can't understand people coming to the South and whining about it.
Usually the ones who are offended by this flag are indifferent toward a FUBU jacket. :rolleyes:
crashdive123
08-14-2008, 12:48 AM
What's the deal with FUBU? I'm being serious, I honestly don't know.
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 01:02 AM
What's the deal with FUBU? I'm being serious, I honestly don't know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUBU
Just for the record I have no problem with FUBU clothing.
Like FVR said, some things are a warning label.
crashdive123
08-14-2008, 01:10 AM
Thanks for the link. I'm not getting your reference in post #38. Looks like a few people came up with an idea and started a clothing company that, at its peak was doing $350 million a year. Were you referring to the part where the Wiki stated that they felt that N i k e (forum blocks that word for some reason) was exploiting African Americans and they wanted a company that gave back to the community? I'm just not getting your reference.
klkak
08-14-2008, 01:11 AM
This is how I feel about it.
nell67
08-14-2008, 01:12 AM
Crash,FUBU means For Us,By Us,meaning the clothes were made by blacks for blacks,that is what his reference is to.
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 01:17 AM
This is how I feel about it.
The same can be said for most of the conflicts we fought since WWII.
Y'all can't kill the South.
crashdive123
08-14-2008, 01:20 AM
Crash,FUBU means For Us,By Us,meaning the clothes were made by blacks for blacks,that is what his reference is to.
Got it. Thanks. Not unlike, what, white separatists ?
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 01:28 AM
Got it. Thanks. Not unlike, what, white separatists ?
You got it.
RangerXanatos
08-14-2008, 01:40 AM
I was born and raised in the south. I grew up seeing those flags everywhere. In people's front yards, as designs on back windshields, pinned on ceilings, hung as a curtain, tattoo's, and I've even heard "Dixie" as a truck horn. I'm not at all offended by the flag/song. But the people that are rascist or surly toward the North/Races are the ones I despise. To the ones that see it as heritage, I have no problems with.
I went to the grocery store one day to pick up some drinks. Pepsi just so happened to be on sale so that was what I got. While leaving the store I had an older man stop me and tell me that Pepsi will rust out my pipes. I told him that just about everything does. He responded to me that if I was going to get a soft drink I should get Coca-Cola since we have a factory in Atlanta. Then he went on a rant about the southerners have Coca-Cola and the "Yankees" have Pepsi and how the "yankees" burnt all of his ancestors' property and he lost all of his inheritence. I just told the prejudice old man that that was in the past and there was nothing he could do about it, move on.
Daniel
ryaninmichigan
08-14-2008, 02:16 AM
I had a friend that lived in Tn. for 10 years. I visited often 4-5 times a year. We went into a bar one night. Shooting pool, went to the bar, order a beer and this old boy looked at me and said "You aint from around here is ya boy?" I said no sir. he said " I don't like notherners none." I said thats OK I hate hill billys. The room got real quite for a minute. Then he said " I like you boy, let me buy that beer".. I take no sh!t.
crashdive123
08-14-2008, 02:19 AM
See....that was nicely done RiM. Me, I probably would have said something like "Your wife doesn't seem to mind" You got a beer. Me, probably an arse whooping.
I was working on the outskirts of Hattiesburg Ms, many, many years ago pulling underground storage tanks from radio towers.
The subs show up, local boys. Older guy says "Where ye from" I told him Atlanta, he then went into a tyrade about damn yankees coming down here taking away local work.
Think it was a smart move not to tell him that I was really from NJ, there was a 10' deep hole right there.
Always be aware of your sourroundings. LOL.
I usually keep my mouth shut. Ya see, I look like a good ol boy, but when I open my mouth, the Yankee just comes right out.
Sarge47
08-14-2008, 02:33 AM
FUBU sucks! They don't make Gore-Tex survival clothing!:rolleyes: However how in the world does a clothing company started up by blacks for blacks even compare to a flag that stands for out-and-out racism? I'll tell you what, we'll test this out. Which one of you macho "Stars & Bars" lovers volunteers to fly the confederate flag through the all black neighborhoods in New York's Harlem, L.A.'s Watts, & the Black neighborhoods in Chicago? If you do that & come back home without any bullet holes anywhere then I'll believe that the flag's not offensive.:rolleyes: If you come home standing up & walking I'll believe it's a freakin' miracle. :eek:
BTW, Crash, ever since the "Heathen Chinee Spambots" & their like tried to sell that brand of running shoe it's now a "Red-Flag". I'm guessing, but I'll bet that's why.:eek:
ryaninmichigan
08-14-2008, 02:33 AM
See....that was nicely done RiM. Me, I probably would have said something like "Your wife doesn't seem to mind" You got a beer. Me, probably an arse whooping.
When he said that I was fully prepared to whip his ***. But I also knew he WAS from around there. So I thought I would have some fun first. I made out alright. Bear Creek Inn. Outside of Columbia.
ryaninmichigan
08-14-2008, 02:35 AM
FUBU sucks! They don't make Gore-Tex survival clothing!:rolleyes: However how in the world does a clothing company started up by blacks for blacks even compare to a flag that stands for out-and-out racism? I'll tell you what, we'll test this out. Which one of you macho "Stars & Bars" lovers volunteers to fly the confederate flag through the all black neighborhoods in New York's Harlem, L.A.'s Watts, & the Black neighborhoods in Chicago? If you do it that & come back home without any bullet holes anywhere then I'll believe that the flag's not offensive.:rolleyes: If you come home standing up & walking I'll believe it's a freakin' miracle. :eek:
BTW, Crash, ever since the "Heathen Chinee Spambots" & their like tried to sell that brand of running shoe it's now a "Red-Flag". I'm guessing, but I'll bet that's why.:eek:
It's the name. Not for me. I guess if I made work boots called MFWNFB it would be ok?
Sarge47
08-14-2008, 02:38 AM
It's the name. Not for me. I guess if I made jump boots called MFWNFB it would be ok?
RiM, I wouldn't mind a bit, although that doesn't mean I'd buy any.:D How about a clothing line of Survival duds labeled "WTSHTF"?:D
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 03:02 AM
FUBU sucks! They don't make Gore-Tex survival clothing!:rolleyes: However how in the world does a clothing company started up by blacks for blacks even compare to a flag that stands for out-and-out racism? I'll tell you what, we'll test this out. Which one of you macho "Stars & Bars" lovers volunteers to fly the confederate flag through the all black neighborhoods in New York's Harlem, L.A.'s Watts, & the Black neighborhoods in Chicago? If you do that & come back home without any bullet holes anywhere then I'll believe that the flag's not offensive.:rolleyes: If you come home standing up & walking I'll believe it's a freakin' miracle. :eek:
I fly it in Atlanta. The dirty South isn't for sissies.
The Confederate flag is not about hate. Never was. Of course, some people consider St. Andrews a hate sign, too.
THE FACTS are that the Civil war was about State Rights. If the South had of successfully seceded from the Union the North would have gone broke because of it's green backs. Slavery was just an emotional issue that the Union used to justify the war. Surely you remember what Grant said after the war?
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 03:38 AM
I was working on the outskirts of Hattiesburg Ms, many, many years ago pulling underground storage tanks from radio towers.
The subs show up, local boys. Older guy says "Where ye from" I told him Atlanta, he then went into a tyrade about damn yankees coming down here taking away local work.
Think it was a smart move not to tell him that I was really from NJ, there was a 10' deep hole right there.
Always be aware of your sourroundings. LOL.
I usually keep my mouth shut. Ya see, I look like a good ol boy, but when I open my mouth, the Yankee just comes right out.
About nine years ago I applied for a job wiring a school in Cherokee country. They called me and told me to come to work. I didn't know it was a Union shop and the owners were unsatisfied with the Union workers and were hiring non-Union workers to replace them. The Union guys were mostly from up North. I don't blame a man for relocating to feed his family if all he knows how to do is electrical work.
At lunch one of my co-workers had forgot to bring a spoon. The dumb Yankee was eating mashed potatoes with his fingers. I gave the guy my spoon and I started eating with my pocket knife. They were impressed with what I could do and asked me how long I had been with the "program". I didn't know what they were talking about so I told them how long I had been doing electrical work and what all I had done in the past. When they figured out that I was not in the IBEW they all got up and moved to another part of the slab. The feller that I gave my spoon to slung the spoon across the floor. So I sat there by myself and finished my lunch.
When it was time to go back to work they started calling me a "scab". I said "Look, I just answered an ad in the newspaper and showed up to work just like y'all." About three of them 'booed' and another started yelling about how great and wonderful the IBEW is. I responded "Well, I'm in my own backyard and I don't mind y'all being here so what is yer problem?" I finally had to stand on one of the fellers toes and put my nose to his and ask him just how far he wanted to take it before they would leave me alone. They treated me like dirt. When I got home I called the shop and asked them WTF is going on. They could have told me that it was a Union shop before they sent me out there. I finally joined the Union as an IJ (intermediate journeyman) then everybody was happy.
I'm married to a Yankee that was born in Germany.
While living up in Maryland, I got kicked out of a hunting club on the Eastern Shore because I am and always have been non union. Now, I've had to belong to unions while working up in NJ and Md., but that was by necissisity.
I've lost long time hunting and fishing buds because of unions and strikes. It is a shame, because I don't give a rats *** if you are union, it's just no my way. Union members just don't see it that way.
I've had guys that I have sat around the fire with on cold winter mornings, throw rocks at my truck.
Now, that is a hot issue.
sgtdraino
08-14-2008, 04:11 AM
I think that the problems that arise from it, and why emotions run so high is that those that claim it is just a symbol of Southern Pride did nothing when their symbol was hijacked by hate groups.
That is not strickly true. Those of us who view the flag as benign were simply drowned out by those jumping on the band wagon proclaiming it to be racist. In my experience, a lot of Northerners still believe that the South is largely populated by racists. I believe that currently the South is no more racist than any other area of the country.
It is also hard to compete with the Hollywood image. Whenever TV and movie makers use the flag, 99.9% of the time it is used as an image of racism. But that is a Hollywood concoction, not the truth. But when so many people base their reality on what they see on TV and in the movies, it is no wonder that the reputation of the flag has been irrevocably and unjustifiably damaged beyond repair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
Good link, Rick. You beat me to it. As the link says, the "confederate flag" is a 20th century creation combining the shape of the confederate navy jack with the colors of the confederate battle flag. It was never an actual flag of the confederate states of america.
I was born and raised in the south. I grew up seeing those flags everywhere. In people's front yards, as designs on back windshields, pinned on ceilings, hung as a curtain, tattoo's, and I've even heard "Dixie" as a truck horn. I'm not at all offended by the flag/song. But the people that are rascist or surly toward the North/Races are the ones I despise. To the ones that see it as heritage, I have no problems with.
Well said. There are some very nice and decent people who fly the confederate flag... and there are some racist assholes who fly it too. People should not generalize the meaning of the flag, any more than they should generalize that every black guy walking the street is a criminal. Both are unjustified prejudices. I too was born and raised in the South (though all of my relatives are yankees), and I view the flag as a simple expression of southern pride. However, I would never have the guts to fly the flag, because I'd be afraid some prejudiced asshole would try to take his biases out on me.
However how in the world does a clothing company started up by blacks for blacks even compare to a flag that stands for out-and-out racism?
The flag does not stand for "out-and-out racism." Different people attribute different kinds of meanings to it, similar to how blacks' use of the N-word carries a significantly different connotation than use of the N-word by white racists. The flag's meaning varies depending on context. For example, a gun pointed at you has a completely different contextual meaning than a gun stowed in somebody's holster.
I'll tell you what, we'll test this out. Which one of you macho "Stars & Bars" lovers volunteers to fly the confederate flag through the all black neighborhoods in New York's Harlem, L.A.'s Watts, & the Black neighborhoods in Chicago? If you do that & come back home without any bullet holes anywhere then I'll believe that the flag's not offensive.
Does that prove the flag is a racist symbol, or does that prove that there are violent people living there who would hurt you for displaying the wrong "colors?"
The Confederate flag is not about hate. Never was. Of course, some people consider St. Andrews a hate sign, too.
I will admit that some people do use the flag as a symbol of their hatred. I will say that the flag was never intended to be such a symbol. It is unfortunate that so many prejudiced people, both racists, and those prejudiced against southerners, have largely made it so.
THE FACTS are that the Civil war was about State Rights. If the South had of successfully seceded from the Union the North would have gone broke because of it's green backs. Slavery was just an emotional issue that the Union used to justify the war.
I largely agree with this interpretation. If you asked a yankee soldier why he was fighting, he would tell you it was to free the slaves. If you asked a confederate soldier why he was fighting, he would say it was to defend the rights of his state.
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 04:49 AM
While living up in Maryland, I got kicked out of a hunting club on the Eastern Shore because I am and always have been non union. Now, I've had to belong to unions while working up in NJ and Md., but that was by necissisity.
I've lost long time hunting and fishing buds because of unions and strikes. It is a shame, because I don't give a rats *** if you are union, it's just no my way. Union members just don't see it that way.
I've had guys that I have sat around the fire with on cold winter mornings, throw rocks at my truck.
Now, that is a hot issue.
I left the union after that particular. My take on the Unions is that it is used as a crutch to be inefficient at your job. There a big difference between the unions of the old coal mines in West Virginia and what that Union is today. These folks were just taking advantage of the workforce.
I'm sorry about yer fishing buddies. Some folks have nothing to believe in so they take up the torch of whatever comes along. I reckon it would be nice to put a goose egg on their heads with a wrist rocket when they throw rocks at your truck but then again you don't want to scar up old buddies. Tough situation.
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 05:06 AM
Sgtdraino, yer my kind of guy. I like the way you use reason rather than rhetoric.
sgtdraino
08-14-2008, 06:08 AM
Sgtdraino, yer my kind of guy. I like the way you use reason rather than rhetoric.
You may well find that I am a Master Debater. ;)
Jason_Montana
08-14-2008, 07:24 AM
I never really thought of it as a symbol of racism. I think of it as the "rebel flag" basically anyone who wants to seperate themselves from the standard USA status quo mentality in a redneck sorta way.
On a side note, in my Civics class we were taught the Civil War was about slavery and economics- not race. Basically, the cotton industry and southern agriculture wasn't economically feasible without free/cheap labor. Wealthy Southern Landowners were willing to exploit anyone for a dollar. Northern spin doctors turned it into a race issue- southerners thought of it as an economic issue.
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 01:36 PM
[quote On a side note, in my Civics class we were taught the Civil War was about slavery and economics- not race. Basically, the cotton industry and southern agriculture wasn't economically feasible without free/cheap labor. Wealthy Southern Landowners were willing to exploit anyone for a dollar. Northern spin doctors turned it into a race issue- southerners thought of it as an economic issue.[/quote]
That would make it a race issue then wouldn't it, the slaves were black, although I agree it wasn't all about slavery. And those wealthy landowners were lazy, plain and simple. Force someone to do your work. But never forget a lot of societies have had slaves from the Egyptians to the Native Americans, Vikings to Romans and in colonial America indentured servitude was a crude form of slavery.
I'm not talking about what the flag stood for back during the civil war, I know it was a conferate battle flag and to me it is a part of our national history. But today it stands for racisim point blank. Not from the people in South such as those from here or just the good ole country boys from the south, but from the racist groups that use it like the kkk, neo-nazi's and others, sad fact it is now associated with them.
FUBU is just a clothing line, like everything that is supposed to be "cool" to the younger generation it died off some like every trend does. I have seen white kids, black kids, hispanic kids, and asian kids wearing FUBU, its just a clothing line like Sean John.
Sarge I agree, we need a clothing line for wilderness people.
smokelessfire
08-14-2008, 01:58 PM
there's no such thing as a piece of fabric with a design on it and no meaning. if you believe that, sew a swastika on your shirt and walk around town. i dare ya. and another thing, i don't appreciate mexicans, puerta ricans and anyone else going around with little flags of their OLD homeland dangling from the mirror of their cars. go home and dangle your flags. and NO, you are not a Blank-Hyphen-American. soon as you became a citizen(or snuck in here), you became an AMERICAN. you didn't come here because your old country was better, you came here because it sucked ***! don't insult the natives anymore!
countybob
08-14-2008, 02:17 PM
The rebel flag as used today represents a rebelious philosophy ;against a government, against a different race or against anything else thats handy. By displaying a flag from the side that was defeated in a war are you proudly claiming to be some sort of a loser?
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 02:45 PM
there's no such thing as a piece of fabric with a design on it and no meaning. if you believe that, sew a swastika on your shirt and walk around town. i dare ya. and another thing, i don't appreciate mexicans, puerta ricans and anyone else going around with little flags of their OLD homeland dangling from the mirror of their cars. go home and dangle your flags. and NO, you are not a Blank-Hyphen-American. soon as you became a citizen(or snuck in here), you became an AMERICAN. you didn't come here because your old country was better, you came here because it sucked ***! don't insult the natives anymore!
I am Irish American and I proudly dispaly the Irish flag (is that wrong, nope) which is no different than the mexicans, puerta ricans and anyone else going around with little flags of their homeland in their cars or where ever, its pride in herittage. This country was founded by imigrants. And I did not insult the Native American's either.
Part of our rights as Americans is to display whatever we want, and make no mistake I never said you can't or shouldn't display the confederate flag, I asked does it bother anyone.
bulrush
08-14-2008, 03:00 PM
Trying...hard...not to...bash...unions.
Unions had a good reason for existing back in the day. But today they just seem corrupt and inefficient. And I thought it was just the UAW in the "rust belt" (Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois.) My ex-wife was highly pressured to be in the teacher's union. Basically, she was told it was REQUIRED that she was in the union, but there is no law requiring that. When we were married, we later tried to fight not to pay dues, but she was very fearful of her job if she didn't pay. So we paid.
You know why Delphi Automotive is still in negotiations with the union after 2+ years? The union wants something for nothing. They want stuff the company just cannot give. The union doesn't understand you can't get blood from a stone. Delphi has one of the best CEOs for turning around a company in trouble, however, he has never dealt with a union before, much less the UAW.
If Delphi gave the UAW their current demands, the company would be closed down in 2-3 years, and that is not a concern for the union. They want short term results (cash and insurance), not a long-term job.
Why should a high-school dropout get better wages than me who went into debt for a 4 year degree? It's not fair, but that's the way it is. I've seen older janitors in the union get $60,000 per year, and the company had to lay off salaried employees to keep paying him.
Ideally, one person is not inherently more valuable than another, but in a free market, value should be determined by your education and experience, not on your membership in a union. And companies shouldn't abuse their employees either, hourly or salaried.
wow, well see how wrong someone can be when it comes to a symbol? I thought that fubu stood for *ucked up beyond use. I really did, apologies to the fubu company. So....that's pretty much the way it is with symbols I guess, people can be mistaken. It's too bad that when it comes to flags people have to invest so much emotion in them and use them as an excuse to run their own biases and prejudices (sometimes violently) against someone else.
Now everyone go have a nice glass of lemonade and chill out.
Jason_Montana
08-14-2008, 04:14 PM
That would make it a race issue then wouldn't it, the slaves were black, although I agree it wasn't all about slavery.
Again, back to my Civics class here....my teacher told us that there were other races that were slaves in the South- however, in low numbers.
Supposedly in the early days of the large scale southern agricultural industry people used Native Americans, Mexicans, and various Asians as slaves. However, none of those groups could compete with the slaves coming out of Africa when it came to working abilities in the hot southern conditions. Because of there abilities of laborers they became much more of a commodity than slaves of other ethnic groups, and in essence made the other slaves obsolete.
Is this true? I don't know- maybe my teacher had some sort of agenda that I've never thought about until now. Honestly, I never think about racism or the Civil War. Probably because it just isn't an issue here in Montana, because there are very few minority groups around.
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 04:47 PM
But plenty of militia groups... just kidding.
Actually racism doesn't come up much here either, just pops its head up every now and then. I just see people as people and judge them by how they act towards myself and others, what actions a person does speaks volumes. Words are just words and I let them go in one ear and out the other, as a cop I have been called so many names I can't remember how many, its the uniform they are angry at, not me just like here I take nothing personally.
Now I've had some African American's act like a-holes until they see a picture of my wife on my desk and then since I'm married to a black woman I suddenly become a cool cop. But if it calms them down then so be it, they still get the same charge and I just shake my head. But people are people, good and bad.
Ole WV Coot
08-14-2008, 06:35 PM
Well I might as well finish what I started: I don't have a Confederate Flag, gggrandpa was in the 14th KY Infantry Volunteers, I am Scotch-Irish-Swedish probably Melungeon also, I have and still belong to the CWA-IBEW-UMWA. Except for Uncle Sam I have belonged to a union all my life. Before you decide on unions or Rednecks I suggest a little research on union organizing of coal miners in S. WV & E. KY. and living in a company town, being paid in "script" never money and could only be used at the "company store". Beo mentioned Harlan Co., KY, it was known as Bloody Harlan when I was young. Both my Dad & Grandpa worked in company towns, both were miners and I put in a summer before school. The flag doesn't bother me, never did. I worked in DC, Baltimore area for 15yrs and saw more racism there in DC with at that time 97% black. I was a minority, and overall minorities were worse towards each other than black & white I am not happy with one country, their people or culture but that's my problem. We all know what an opinion is like. I never crossed a picket line and never will. I will quit while I'm behind for awhile.
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 06:54 PM
Well Coot to be honest, I was born in Kingsville Texas in 65 and lived there for 5 years, my family moved then to Virginia (I was a navy brat) and lived there for all my life until about 10th grade and then we moved to Cincinnati, I went into the Army in 1983 and was stationed in Ft. Campbell Ky, which may as well be Tennessee cause 90% of the post is in Tennessee. Lived there until 1991 and came back to Ohio after Desert Storm and been here ever since. My Dads family is from Harlan Ky and across the boarder in Tennessee, my moms is from Virginia and Ohio. I'm Irish on my pops side and Irish/French on my moms. My wife thinks I get real hillybilly sometimes but then figures its the Irish in me coming out. I dunno I'm just me.
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 07:00 PM
Yeah Crash I was a Navy brat, my dad was in Vietnam, he did 3 tours in the Brown Water Navy as River Rat.
Was his first tour in '64?
crashdive123
08-14-2008, 07:03 PM
I've got a lot of respect for those river boat guys. Knew quite a few.
I've got a lot of respect for those river boat guys. Knew quite a few.
Yeah, that's what your Mom told me too.
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 07:07 PM
Somewhere around there, he won't talk much about. He opens up a bit when we see stuff on the 1st gulf war and I comment, he'll then talk a littlt about vietnam.
I just figured his first tour would have been '64 if you were born in '65
:D:D:D At least it didn't involve a threesome.:eek::eek::eek:
How do you know how many it involved?
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 07:10 PM
Yeah probably, never thought on it.
Crash you funny... lol...
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 07:10 PM
True Trax, sailors hang in groups :D
Oh really? Cuz the other thing she told me is they really don't hang much at all.
I've got the pictures.
Yeah? Are you in them with the rest of them?
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 07:17 PM
Oh really? Cuz the other thing she told me is they really don't hang much at all.
Dohhhhh....
Dohhhhh....
Think it was more like oh-oh-oh-ohhhhhhhhhhh, then ahahahhahahhah
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 07:28 PM
you two are cracking me up.
you two are cracking me up.
that's what your Mom said.
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 07:34 PM
Trax are you mad, I hope not.
You guys are brutal. Funny...but brutal.
Ole WV Coot
08-14-2008, 08:30 PM
Oh really? Cuz the other thing she told me is they really don't hang much at all.
Back up for adoption again!!!:eek: NELL come and get him.!:eek: I can't even take a nap without things getting "out of hand". Good discussion, didn't read like anybody lost it. We don't think alike and I could care less what somebody runs up their flagpole as long as the Stars & Stripes are on top. I know several men that fly the USMC flag under it along with the MIA, Stars & Bars. Only one gets me and that's my problem 'cause it shouldn't.
nell67
08-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Back up for adoption again!!!:eek: NELL come and get him.!:eek: I can't even take a nap without things getting "out of hand". Good discussion, didn't read like anybody lost it. We don't think alike and I could care less what somebody runs up their flagpole as long as the Stars & Stripes are on top. I know several men that fly the USMC flag under it along with the MIA, Stars & Bars. Only one gets me and that's my problem 'cause it shouldn't.
Coot,what Trax is saying here has nothing to do with flags of any sort.
Beowulf65
08-14-2008, 08:41 PM
We were all joking around, I hope Trax didn't get mad I know he for one can take what is dished out on here, I've seen worse.
Well I guess I'm done with this thread, it turned into a bit of argument and I did not mean for that to happen.
Back up for adoption again!!!:eek: NELL come and get him.!:eek: I can't even take a nap without things getting "out of hand". Good discussion, didn't read like anybody lost it. We don't think alike and I could care less what somebody runs up their flagpole as long as the Stars & Stripes are on top. I know several men that fly the USMC flag under it along with the MIA, Stars & Bars. Only one gets me and that's my problem 'cause it shouldn't.
Ain't nothing to do with flags Pop. If you can't get into it, best to stay out of it.
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 09:53 PM
That would make it a race issue then wouldn't it, the slaves were black, although I agree it wasn't all about slavery. And those wealthy landowners were lazy, plain and simple. Force someone to do your work. But never forget a lot of societies have had slaves from the Egyptians to the Native Americans, Vikings to Romans and in colonial America indentured servitude was a crude form of slavery.If the Civil war was about slavery the Union would have passed a bill to offer to buy the slaves freedom. The American slaves were treated much better than any slave in the world. In the Caribbeans the average life expectancy was around 35 since they were either worked to death in the sugarcane fields or dies of Malaria. It was pretty much the same in South America. The average life expectancy for a slave in America was 90 and they were allow to get married and have children. This lead to over population among the slaves. Only 5% of the South even owned slaves. The South was basically pigeon holes into being only an agricultural area with most of the taxes from the harvests being used to pay for the Northern infrastructure. The blacks were not the only slaves in America. The Union employed White slaves.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=irish+slaves+in+america&btnG=Google+Search
I'm not talking about what the flag stood for back during the civil war, I know it was a conferate battle flag and to me it is a part of our national history. But today it stands for racisim point blank. Not from the people in South such as those from here or just the good ole country boys from the south, but from the racist groups that use it like the kkk, neo-nazi's and others, sad fact it is now associated with them. I don't care. Some folks view the American flag as a hate symbol.
FUBU is just a clothing line, like everything that is supposed to be "cool" to the younger generation it died off some like every trend does. I have seen white kids, black kids, hispanic kids, and asian kids wearing FUBU, its just a clothing line like Sean John. All this racket about a flag yet you turn a blind eye to a brand like FUBU. What do you think about Dixie Outfitters?
Sarge I agree, we need a clothing line for wilderness people.
Designer survival gear? :rolleyes:
Trax are you mad, I hope not.
Know what bro? I already said that it wasn't funny, not based on it being about me and Nell and the differences we've had with SR. It's an insult to us and him. Don't get that? YOu apologized once and changed your mind....how funny would it be if it was you and your lovely wife and ANY other guy?
All this crap I've been posting isn't funny, or it shouldn't be it's friggin' juvenile. But hey, I can stay at it til they ban me.
Sam Reeves
08-14-2008, 10:15 PM
Know what bro? I already said that it wasn't funny, not based on it being about me and Nell and the differences we've had with SR. It's an insult to us and him. Don't get that? YOu apologized once and changed your mind....how funny would it be if it was you and your lovely wife and ANY other guy?
All this crap I've been posting isn't funny, or it shouldn't be it's friggin' juvenile. But hey, I can stay at it til they ban me.
Yeah, I have to agree with you on this, trax. *shivers* They are taking Braggs bad joke to a new level. You are handling it better than I would have.
crashdive123
08-14-2008, 10:17 PM
My apologies to all - I'll delete the posts.
Yeah, I have to agree with you on this, trax. *shivers* They are taking Braggs bad joke to a new level. You are handling it better than I would have.
easy Sam easy, deep breaths. Don't worry, it probably won't happen again:D that ..you and me agreeing thing...:D (I hate to admit this Sam but there's actually things we've agreed on in the past too....:eek:)
rebel
08-14-2008, 11:04 PM
Remember the saying: "if you live in a glass house, don't throw stones" ?
People like to ridicule and find fault with others for being different. The differences are varied. It could be race, religion, demographics, etc.
Because of my job, my wife and I are from the south and live in the north. We constantly hear deragatory comments from northerners about folks from the south. We know these people do not mean what they say but, this was how they were brought up. These folks don't think it is offensive to try and mimick a southern accent but, it's no less offesive than calling someone a name.
I guess, if you're not from that race, or religion and you have something to say that is not kind then do yourself and others a favor and keep your mouth shut. Stop being offensive.
This brings up another problem in our society. Excuses. Every race, religion and culture has had attrocities committed upon them at some time in history. It's time to lay down the flags of percevied injustice and work together. What was a problem 40 years ago no longer excists. If the speical interest groups no longer excisted then all types of flags would go-away.
LostOutrider
08-15-2008, 02:44 AM
It has been said before in this thread that the Civil War was not about slavery, but rather about economics. At least, in the North it was a war of economics. In the South it was ideology. States' rights vs. Federal law. The North needed the agricultural base of the South. Without it, there would be no need for factories to run, railroads to be built, and banks to circulate money. Slavery was essential to the Southern agricultural economy but it isn't like every evil-eyed whitey down below the Mason-Dixon had his own personal string of slaves to whip. You might want to research on slavery in the North. (Massachusetts was the first slave-holding colony in New England - slavery there dating back to 1624.) Slavery was not just a Southern sin.
As with all wars, there was heavy propaganda. Easier to stir the population for war when it is about emotions and a dehumanized enemy. That propaganda of Southerners as ignorant, aggressive bigots seems to have lasted, too. (I had a woman in New York ask me, with a straight face, if I bought shoes just to visit Buffalo.) Many Southern soldiers marched to war to protect their homes and their land, their immediate community and their state from an invading army bent on destruction. Their sacrifice and bravery under that flag is as worthy of my respect as the ones who took up arms to protect their home and country in any other conflict.
I do not fly that flag any more than I fly the Italian flag my grandfather was born under or the 13-star flag that my earliest American ancestor fought for. It disgusts me that the Confederate flag has been taken as a symbol by hate groups about as much as it disgusts me to see a faded Stars-and-Bars sticker on the back of a H3 with the caption "these colors don't run" under it. About as much as it disgusts me to see lapel pin-head politicians waving our flag to send more of our best and most valuable out to die.
My ancestors fought and died fighting against that flag, so I guess it is a negative for me.
smokelessfire
08-15-2008, 01:38 PM
i might accept flying your old nations flag UNDER the american flag. like the way states have to fly their flags. but like i said, you came here for a reason. fine. be proud of your old country, but try being proud of being what you are now, an American.
Sarge47
08-15-2008, 02:12 PM
Here's the deal; weather or not the "Confederate Flag" we're looking at is a newer design or not is not the point. It's simply a continuation of the older models & that includes what they stood for. IF the South had won the civil war we'd still have slavery, weather it be in the North or South. The Confederate States lost & the blacks were freed, thank God! I view that flag the same as I view the Nazi Flag with it's big, black Swastika. In this country you are free to fly either one, just don't expect me to fall all over myself supporting them. As a matter of fact, keep both of them off my property if you don't want hostilities to start up again! I don't care if some people who fly that flag say they don't believe it ever supported racism, it most certainly did & trying to change that now is silly. Perhaps the majority of Confederate soldiers fought for different reasons other than keeping slavery intact, the point is that people like Vice President Calhoun, prior to the Civil War, were "Pro-Slavery"(watch the Steven Spielberg film: "Amistad".) & that flag, or it's earlier versions became it's emblem. Today we have the American Flag for our country &, like Smokeless Fire posted, if you fly it, keep it under "Old Glory", that's where
it belongs! The issue of slavery itself is a stain on America's history, and our nation is rightfully embarrassed about it; so they attempt to "downplay" it. Unfortunately it took many years of struggle for black folks to gain the same rights as any other American even after the Civil War, a lot of it in the south, but also in the U.S. Military itself as well as other Government agencies That is so sad. :cool:
Ole WV Coot
08-15-2008, 04:02 PM
My personal opinion is we are beating a dead horse. We all know what opinions are like and I have read some that apply. This is a good place to kill this thread before somebody gets hot under the collar. You can always PM me if you don't agree, the door is open.
Yep, Pop's right again. People are gonna keep on doing what they're gonna do.
warman87
08-15-2008, 06:08 PM
I am of German descent. I am 6’4 230lbs, Blonde hair, blue eyes. I shave my head and wear a plain white tee shirt, jeans and work boots everyday. Am I a skin head? Or a regular hard working American?
heck you could be eather or both how are we to know unless someone on here knows you personally
I agree. I've thought about closing this thread before now because, frankly, it's rather useless. Closed!
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