For our gun people.

[Beo]

For thise of you that are into guns and those that like to keep up in the newest and latest weapons our military will be using check this out. A new rifle made for special ops.
http://www.military.com/news/article/operators-test-new-commando-rifle.html?ESRC=dod.nl

[Sam]

For thise of you that are into guns and those that like to keep up in the newest and latest weapons our military will be using check this out. A new rifle made for special ops.
http://www.military.com/news/article/operators-test-new-commando-rifle.html?ESRC=dod.nl

Hey Beowulf, did you ever have a problem with the M-16A2 for stopping power?
And did you ever see the G-11 in trials in the 80's?

[Beo]

Never had a problem, but I had an M16 with M203 grenade launcher on it, one of the only LRSD Sergeants to carry one as most made the lower enlisted carry it. But I loved my 203 wcich I named "Thumper" because I got twitterpated when I shot it and thumped out blasted someone:D If I didn't carry that I carried a car-15 the precursor to the M4. Loved it too btw.

[Sourdough]

Side observation: I have after one year completed creating a AR-15 pistol, with 10 1/2" Barrel, in 6.8 SPC which has not matched the vision: For walkabout it is hard to carry, and harder to shoot, so it will go bye-bye at the next gun show.

[RobertRogers]

Very interesting and I wonder if the trend will be to eventually transition to the 7.62

[VampireRanger676]

the SCAR has been around since 2 years ago I think it is the S.E.A.Ls or marines already have it in use and the army's Rangers have been allowed to use it but I think testing for all branches started last year and it is going to be the replacement for the m-16

[klkak]

After some very unpleasant incidents back in the 80's. I begged and pleaded for something else. At the time I was carrying a GAU-5. I was finely issued a highly modified Remington 870 12 guage w/several different types of ammo and a 1911 pistol both of which were brand new. For what I was doing and where I was at, these two weapons were about perfect.

[Fargus]

I'm rather impressed by the XM8 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m8-oicw.htm). Too bad it looks like it will lose the contract to an inferior Colt model due to politics.

[dilligaf2u2]

I'll stick with my M 21 and the M 85. Both have stopping power and range! If the LIL Bas*er*d gets closer? I'll use one of the home made claymores. Hey I got a Mossy 12 for that now! Bring them on!

Don

[Ole WV Coot]

Very interesting and I wonder if the trend will be to eventually transition to the 7.62

I have been thinking the same thing for years. Abundance of ammo stockpiled worldwide will have a lot to do with it. It will go like my favorite 45cal. I just can't be convinced that semi auto 9mm that holds 14 for example is more efficient when maybe two 9mm rounds equals one 45. That's my opinion not statistic comparison. Lots of 9mm stockpiled worldwide probably had a lot to do with the semi change or part of the excuse Uncle Same made to go to Beretta for the Mod 92. I just don't like the nine. I own one, put less than 100 rounds thru it, cleaned it and back to the gun safe.:confused: Before I would carry the nine I would chose my Walther PPK/S in .380 with Federal Personal defense loads. Guess we know what opinions are like:D

[Beo]

There's a pistol, can't remember the maker I think its H&K that makes a 5.7mm that will go through a vest because of the high velocity, nice little pistol though. I happen to like the M16, colt AR15 and especially the M4 but then those are what I trained with and have carried. 1 out of every 6 of our cruisers have an M4, the driver of those cruisers are designated "Heavy Weapons" operators and we all get annual training on them. Still one well placed shot is all that is needed. For SRT I carry an M4 and at times the shotgun.

[Cleankill47]

The FiveseveN is made by FN-Herstal. It is a 5.7X28mm round, and the pistol starts around $1,000. Thus, alas, I don't have one.....

[Beo]

That's the gun couldn't remember for some reason, real nice though. It goes for around $899.00 here in Ohio, I want one but...
well its not a flintlock so I'd never shoot it. :D

[klkak]

Beo, The ammo for the FiveseveN that will penetrate soft body armor is only available to Law enforcement and Military (special order). It has never been nor ever will be released to the civilian market. Technically you would be able to buy it. However I've heard it is very hard to come by even for those authorized to have it.

[Ole WV Coot]

Anyone know just off the top of your head, maybe Beo is possession of Black Talons now Illegal? Not that I have any, just curious.

[Fargus]

Black Talons were never illegal and aren't now. A quick read of several firearms forums seems to indicate that many feel the Ranger SXT design is the same bullet, just without a coating. There is also a Wiki article about it, but I'm dubious about its origin and veracity.

[crashdive123]

Pretty sure that the SXT was an attempt by Winchester to calm down the hysterical reaction that was going around about the Black Talons. As far as I know, Black Talons are legal.

[klkak]

Also not that Black Talons never could penetrate soft body armor. When I retired a vest several years ago, some friends and I took it to the range and fired several different rounds at it to see what it could take. I fired 2 180g. .40 S/W Black Talons at it from 7 yards. Both fell to the ground after impact only cutting a couple layers. I won't relay what rounds punched though. The vest was a Second Chance Ultima w/Ti trauma plate.

The SXT's are the same load as the Black Talons without the black of course.

[Rick]

Uh, were you wearing it during the test?:rolleyes:

http://pics.livejournal.com/enthusemarc/pic/000zf2pc

[Beo]

Klak, here in Ohio the rounds for the Five-seveN are over the counter even the ones that will penetrate body armor, I first heard about this gun when the range instructors had one and bought the ammo at Bass Pro and they bought the ones that penetrate body armor there too. The tests proved that while it goes through the front plate it has a considerable spread (the projectile kinda mushrooms) and would not penetrate the back of the vest, even so that means it would go into the wearers body. These rounds can be bought at Bass Pro here in cincinnati or at least could have been at the time of testing, I personally don't need those kinda rounds as my flintlock won't them:D
Rick we didn't test our vest or any rounds that way thank God :D

[Ole WV Coot]

If I am not mistaken it wasn't penetration with the Black Talon it was the wound channel. The stopping one shot potential and damage was over rated. It was a "politically incorrect" round. I use Federal Personal Defense in all my handguns if I carry, and in what I have in the house. TDW can't rack any semi I have so she has S&W Mod. 60s available for her. Since you both have practical knowledge and when I carry it's either a Beretta 45 or 40. Walther PPK/S in 380 and as I stated don't care for the 9 at all. I use the less expensive ammo for informal and point shooting practice. The ammo I carry the best available on the citizen's market?

[Fargus]

As I recall, the original panic about Black Talons was that they were 'cop killers'. Able to penetrate vests of the day like hot knives through butter. Later proven false, of course. That led to a more generalized protest about hollow point and frag rounds in terms of the most 'humane' way to shoot someone. That's my recollection of the ruckus, probably wrong, but that's the way I recall it happening.

Ask 100 people about what is the 'best' ammo or caliber and you will get 200 different answers, at least. The various gun forums are filled with such discussions daily and have years of archives with more of the same. I had a 9mm for ages (Browning Hi-Power) and hated it. I personally like Speer Gold Dots (165 gr.) and my caliber of choice is .40 S&W (Sig Sauer P229, convertible to .357) for PD. When I head into the Everglades though, I have a clip with CCI #9 shot pest control rounds loaded (snakes). Federal makes some highly regarded PD rounds as well. I'd have no problem switching from Speer to Federal. A local LEO who I did some firearm training with likes the Gold Dots, so I've usually gone with them.

[Gray Wolf]

Wasn't there also a problem and exaggerations with the Black Rhino ammo?

Update: Found this on the Black Talons and Black Rhinos

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E04E6DA173BF934A15751C1A9629582 60

[Fargus]

A decent summary (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n8_v47/ai_16929580) of the Black Rhino non-issue. But yes, pretty much the same sort of thing that swirled around Black Talons.

[Beo]

We get problems here with people saying things about our hollow points from time to time and even my hydro-shocks, I carry hydro-shocks which are nothing more than a hollow point with a wire in the middle, kinda. Hollowpoint bullets have a cavity of varying size in the nose of the bullets. In general Jacketed Hollowpoints will not reliably expand at velocities under 1000 feet per second.
Hydro-Shok bullets have a large hollow cavity with a post of harder lead in the center. The purpose of the post is to redirect body fluids against the side of the cavity, ensuring expansion at lower velocity.
Better expansion means better stopping power because it makes a larger wound channel, and if the bullet exits the target, it makes a larger exit wound.
It's what I carry and use in my guns at home, legal and nasty but a real stopper.

[Gray Wolf]

I use hydro-shocks in all my handguns, I think it's the best civilian round out there for damage and stopping power.

[Beo]

Dug up this old print out we got on "Cop KIller" bullets.
**Note** that the first "cop killer" bullets were created by the request of
police departments to penetrate hard surfaces (like glass and metal) at
oblique angles and for dealing with criminals wearing body armor. The
"cop killer" armor-piercing design is very ineffective and, because of its
expense, has rarely, if ever, been used to shoot at police officers. There
appears to be no case in which a police officer was actually shot with a
so-called "cop killer" bullet.

[klkak]

Uh, were you wearing it during the test?:rolleyes:

http://pics.livejournal.com/enthusemarc/pic/000zf2pc

Um, yea-No! I put the vest around a 75 pound bag of sand. Thank you!:D

[klkak]

I carry a Glock 23 with 180 gr. SXT's or Golddot's.

[Ole WV Coot]

Thanks, glad I am using pretty decent ammo.

[wallew]

Forget the SCAR. Badly designed and has proven 'difficult' in the Sand.

Now, if you like the M4 overall package, try the HK416 (.223) or the HK417 (.308). Now THIS is a weapon that is on par with AK's in the reliablity department. Want proof?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpZryZEiY4

On to 'cop killer' bullets. NONE that I am aware of do what the 'lowly' 7.62x25 will do. OK, maybe a MBR round. But other than that, not so much.

Again, want proof?

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

I've got research done by buddies of mine IN THE FIELD, IN THE SAND. He says the 7.62x25 round was his round of choice. He said it could cut through a car, front to back, side to side and EVERYTHING inside was chopped up.

As we shared a bench in gunsmithing school and he took the job I turned down (contract armorer Special Forces), I tend to take him at his word. Plus he's finally come around to seeing that ANY .223 is a waste of time for an individual. If it's NOT a thirty caliber or larger, you WILL have problems with a one shot, the BG goes down type of thing. It's been proven over and over and over again, especially in our current conflict overseas.

My buddy HELPED the guy who developed the 6.8mm round for the Spec Op guys. Out of channels of course. It took Chris Murray about six to eight weeks to come up with a round he felt would do the job. In testing over in the Sand, it does OK, but NOTHING and I REPEAT - NOTHING - beats an MBR whose caliber starts with a 3 (or any number larger than 3).

[marberry]

7.62 x 25 as in a Torakov ? thoes things are like $80 and the ammo is 150$ for 2000 rounds... thats just dangerous ... but for AP bullets you have to make your own with a lathe , a piece of tempered steel turned into a boattailed solid bullet will work far better then any legal AP round you can buy. at short ranges anyway...

[Rick]

How many of those have you made and tested?

[marberry]

none >_< there illegal in canada so its all theory .. maby someone in the states here can test them..

[crashdive123]

I'll have to pass.

[Rick]

Darn the luck. The lathe is out this week. It's being used to make sharp stabby things.

[Ole WV Coot]

Darn the luck. The lathe is out this week. It's being used to make sharp stabby things.

go to ye ole hardware store and purchase a steel rod. Cut it in bullet length sections, heat to non magnetic and drop into water and you have made you a pile of tempered wadcutters:rolleyes:

[wallew]

Marcraft,
7.62x25 as in Tokarev (a GOOD copy currently selling for around $300). As in CZ52 (a good copy going for around $200). As in PPSh41 & PPS43 (not sure how much a full auto goes for, but MGS has semi auto for around $1k).

My buddy has told me the FMJ will cut up almost anything.

If you look at the second link I posted, it was the only pistol round that penetrated a kevlar helmet all the way through. It's a nasty little round that pops out at a little over 1600 fps. Granted it's a little light, but a light fast bullet does nasty things to everything BUT HEAVY ARMOR.

[marberry]

and you can buy 2280 rounds of 7.62x25TT FMJ Ball from marstar for 200$ thats some ruddy cheep ammo like 8cts a round for center fire. id pay 400$ for a decent bolt action rifle that shoots it, pistols arnt very useful since you cant legally take em anywhere in canada without an ATT (not that anyone i know with a restricted license gets an ATT every time they wana go shoot something.) and you can get a Chinese Tokarev for 100$
. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=107129579