best steel

[smokelessfire]

what is the best steel, is it 440? if not, how good is 440? i have an old hunting knife with 440 and i haven't seen any in the stores lately, it's all 420 and other stuff.

[Sarge47]

...you just opened. There are all kinds of different types of steel. Many moons ago I did a series of posts on the differentt types of knife steel used & the properties that make them unique. Knife steel is not only about the type of steel used, but how it is tempered/treated in the heating process. Buck knives, for example, use a "high carbon" 420 steel that is just as good as 440.
Ka-bar uses 1095 carbon steel (which can rust easily & is best used in "dry" climates) in a lot of their fighting knives. Ontario knives use both 1095 steel & stainless D-2 steel in several of their models, including the high quality RAT series. The D-2 steel has a harder RH factor, making it harder to sharpen, but keeps an edge longer. My Ka-Bar "Bull Dozier" is made from "AUS-8" steel. Now that I've got you thoroughly confused you need to google for knife steel info & do some homework as your life may depend on what you know about the qualities of your knife. There is no substitute for studying. I'll try to find my old posts, but do some checking on your own, okay?:cool:

[crashdive123]

Yep - what Sarge said.

[pgvoutdoors]

Asking what the best knife steel is a good question, but it's also like asking why another mans wife is better than his own!:D

[Sarge47]

At this time I've been unable to locate my old posts, perhaps our "Forum Historian" Rick might be able to locate them, I'm not sure, as the member's post section only lists the last 500 posts; however i got the following off of Google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Knife+Steel+Facts%22&btnG=Google+Search

Enjoy!:D

[smokelessfire]

wow, what a headache, all those types of steel to sort thru. but it looks like 440 is a rarity these days, so i'll hang on to mine. i wish i was rich though, cuz back in the day i was in a knife shop in of all places, a mall, and they had a japanese tanto that looks like a miniature samurai sword of about a foot long, which was made the samurai way, being folded upon itself roughly 400 times in its making. it was also several hundred bucks at the teime, waah! maybe it'd make a good investment now though.

[Rick]

Sorry, Sarge. I didn't find it.

[Gray Wolf]

Here's a great link on knive steels explained.

The Knife Steel FAQ by Joe Talmadge
http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html

[ledzeppie]

It all depends on the climate and use for it

For all we know your a scuba diver and need a rust proof knife.

[crashdive123]

Nice link GW. I was wondering why I hadn't run across it before, then I noticed the section titled "knives over $2000".

[Gray Wolf]

I was wondering why I hadn't run across it before, then I noticed the section titled "knives over $2000".

I've posted it here a couple of times before. I originally found it when I was looking for a birthday present for you. :D

[crashdive123]

Couldn't find anything I'd like? Honest.....I'm not picky.

[nell67]

I think I found what you were looking for:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=412

[Sarge47]

I think I found what you were looking for:

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=412

That's the one! It was almost a year ago, wow! Hey Rick, Nell beat you in the "History" dept; you owe her a dozen Twinkies.:D

[Rick]

Nell beats me hands down but I'm not tellin' Trax about it. I sort of enjoy it.:D:eek:

[nell67]

Nell beats me hands down but I'm not tellin' Trax about it. I sort of enjoy it.:D:eek:

Just remember,I prefer ding dongs to twinkies,and easy on the beatin' stuff,eh? You're gonna get me in trouble!:D

[crashdive123]

Well, there was that rope and feather.....

[Rick]

And I don't know nuthin' 'bout no ding dongs and my twinkies have stayed in the box. Honest, Trax!

[crashdive123]

Rotflmao.....

[Sarge47]

This is probably the best "quick read" one page faq sheet on Knife steel. You'll find there are 3 different grades of 440 steel as well. It comes from the A.G. Russell site::cool:

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/knife_encyclopedia/articles/steel.html

[nell67]

Well, there was that rope and feather.....

Yea,but that is for Trax,not Rick!

[crashdive123]

ah....must leave the whip.....

[Gray Wolf]

This is probably the best "quick read" one page faq sheet on Knife steel. You'll find there are 3 different grades of 440 steel as well. It comes from the A.G. Russell site:
http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/knife_encyclopedia/articles/steel.html

Sarge, Joe Talmadge was the author of that link too, the same guy who did the one I posted:
The Knife Steel FAQ by Joe Talmadge
http://www.knifeart.com/steelfaqbyjo.html ;)

[Blood Groove]

I like 440C stainless steel. BAsically because it has a high carbon content so it keeps a better edge than other stainless steels and is more flexible, but it's also more prone to corrosion. The carbon content si 0.95% to 1.20%. Then Chromium is 16% to 18%.

[Sarge47]

I like 440C stainless steel. BAsically because it has a high carbon content so it keeps a better edge than other stainless steels and is more flexible, but it's also more prone to corrosion. The carbon content si 0.95% to 1.20%. Then Chromium is 16% to 18%.

The 1095 Carbon steel that Ka-Bar uses for their fighting knives is pretty tough stuff as well.:cool:

[Gray Wolf]

Here's a site that puts knives through destruction tests. They put a special statement up in response to the Chris Reeve's Green Beret knife FAILING the test!

http://www.knifetests.com/

[trax]

that's a neat site GW

[Gray Wolf]

Did you see where Chris Reeves says it was on the up and up, and was sending them a replacement!!!!

[trax]

Did you see where Chris Reeves says it was on the up and up, and was sending them a replacement!!!!

I was thinking that it's cool that they're backing their warranty and sent those guys a new knife too, but a warranty doesn't do you a heck of a lot of good if you're out in the bush with a broken knife. Still, those guys are a lot harder on a knife than I would be

[Gray Wolf]

For what that knife costs I hope so, for what that knife costs it shouldn't break!

[crashdive123]

Good site. Thanks. Maybe we should add it to the knife sticky.

[Gray Wolf]

Good site. Thanks. Maybe we should add it to the knife sticky.

They're getting (the site) more & more visitors, they're completely independent, and buy the knives they test, so they're not obligated to do any favors. They do the same tests with each knife, machete, axe etc.

[crashdive123]

I'm going to have to spend some more time on it as the vids are a bit long. Probably a great link for the next time the question is asked "What knife should I buy".

[Gray Wolf]

Check out how well the COLD STEEL BUSHMAN & the COLD STEEL BUSHMAN EXTREME SPEAR TEST did. That's the knife that's being passed around now, well......

[crashdive123]

Pretty sturdy little bugger. Liked the air cannon too.

[klkak]

I've been carrying a K-Bar D-2 Extreme for a couple of years now. I knew it was a tough knife but after watching that video I'm doubly convinced its a tough knife. However it is not one of my favorite knives.

[Gray Wolf]

I was a little surprised about how poorly the Ka-Bar USMC did.

Also surprised how well the Scrap Yard Scrapper 6 did. It's under $100 ($90), but still not sure about using that metal for a knife (SR-77). Must be hard to sharpen in the field.

[Capt.Canuck]

Fallkniven is a very well-respected knife maker that uses a laminate steel process that sandwiches VG10 carbon steel between 420J2 stainless steel.

[Capt.Canuck]

Here's a site that puts knives through destruction tests. They put a special statement up in response to the Chris Reeve's Green Beret knife FAILING the test!

http://www.knifetests.com/

That site is pretty unpopular amongst some knifemakers.

Mike Stewart, the head of Bark River Knives (considered by many to be one of the best makers out there) had this to say (I'll post a link to the thread if more appropriate). I found his comments interesting and informative:



Mike Stewart of Bark River Knives, from knifeforums.com

"The Responses here show how misleading and how wrong most people are in drawing Conclusions from those videos.

First--You are Confusing Strong with Tough.

The Stronger the knife--The FASTER is will break.

The Tougher the knife the longer it takes to break it.

That is Carved in Stone.

It does not require any test ..It is Fact.

Extra Strong knives have less flex and are usually harder--the harder blade holds it's edge longer.

A Softer Knife is Tougher--It will not hold it's edge as long but acts more like a Spring.

A Cheap - Soft Knife will take Far more silly abuse than a real knife that is made to take and hold an edge.

It is obvious to me that Most people truly don't have a grasp of this -- at all.

You can take a cheap--soft import knife and beat the heck out of it without breaking it.

It is a terrible knife but you can't break it.

That is because it has all of the attributes of a Truck Spring--not a knife.

Any good maker--that understands this-- can make a thing--shaped like a knife that the hockey mask guy can't break.

It will look like a knife but it will not cut like a knife.

You can even make it cut--for a short time--just long enough for the duration of the silly cutting things he does in the beginning of the videos.

If you don't know what I have just posted above--you will think that "Cheaper Than Dirt" thing is actually a better knife than other knives that Broke before it did.

Your responses have proven my point.

By you thinking that they have any validity or value you are showing how misleading this sort of thing is.

His tests are pointless.

When he broke the Reeve knife--it was 100% predictable.

Once the blade was firmly stuck in the wood--the continued hitting of the spine was causing a shock wave in both direction out the Blade from the point of impact.

If he was NOT holding the knife--the knife would have stayed together.

His Own hand--on the handle--was dampening the shockwave and not allowing the blade to flex freely from the impact.

The knife Broke right in front of the Dampener (his hand) that was preventing the blade from flexing to the end of the knife.

This is not something that is a great revelation.

It was NORMAL.

You probably didn't know what I just posted so..........You thought it was a problem with the knife.

Something You saw-- with Your own eyes --showed you what a BAD knife this was---When--In Fact--The knife was broken by gross abuse and a lack of any understanding of what he was doing from a Structural Basis.

If he had allowed the knife to full length Flex from the shockwave--it probably would not have broken.

Regardless--once he hit it with a metal hammmer--it was no longer a legitimate test.

I'm not going to go point by point through all of the things he has done to all of the knives but most of them are 100% predictable in final result.

Again--if you are a novice and don't know what you are looking at--you will assume that the knife is bad.

What he does is pointless.

Some of us work very hard--every day-- to make the very best products we can.

Seeing crap like this--and knowing it will be totally misunderstood by potential customers is very disconcerting.

You may find it amusing--A lot of us don't."

[crashdive123]

Hmmm. Learned another new thing today. Thank you.

[Gray Wolf]

Interesting Capt.Canuck, the sight I posted states that most knives won't go through that kind of abuse. Also Interesting is that Chris Reeves is known as a superior knife maker, and had NO problems with the tests, and even offered to send a replacement knife because that blade failed! That says a lot to me.

P.S. I don't find this amusing.

[Gray Wolf]

Fallkniven is a very well-respected knife maker that uses a laminate steel process that sandwiches VG10 carbon steel between 420J2 stainless steel.

If you looked at the site, you would have seen that they gave the FALLKNIVEN A1, one of they're top ratings.....

[Capt.Canuck]

If you looked at the site, you would have seen that they gave the FALLKNIVEN A1, one of they're top ratings.....

My post about Fallkniven was in response to the OP, who was asking "what's the best steel?", and had nothing to do with the knifetests site. I was mentioning to the OP that some manufacturers use more than one steel in their process to achieve what they feel is the optimal result.

As for Mike Stewart's comments, if you re-read my post above I stated that I found his perspective interesting and informative. Specifically that a lot of laypersons like you and I (i.e. non-knifemakers, non-experts) could watch those tests and draw incorrect conclusions about the quality of a knife. All the text in italics are his, not mine - so if you have a bone to pick I'll direct you to the knifeforums.com post and you are welcome to take it up with him.

[Gray Wolf]

This statement from KnifeTests Should be read to understand that one of the best knifemakers didn't have any problem with their testing. Chris posted this on Blade Forums to boot. So you can go there and take it up with Chris.... But it's all good, I just think that the testing site is testing all types of knife metals, heat treatments, etc, and would be helpful to our members and noobs. Also Capt, I am an amateur knife maker, always trying to learn, to get better.

http://www.knifetests.com/chrisreevetestresponse.html

[sgtdraino]

First--You are Confusing Strong with Tough.

The Stronger the knife--The FASTER it will break.

The Tougher the knife the longer it takes to break it.

That is Carved in Stone.

It does not require any test ..It is Fact.

Sounds to me like one of those "truisms" that sounds good but doesn't really mean much. Obviously everyone wants the best of both worlds, edge retention and toughness. But considering that ideally you would touch up the edge of a knife after each time you use it, toughness is more important than edge retention. A dull knife can be resharpened. A broken knife is trash. So long as the knife keeps an edge long enough to perform the task at hand, then it has succeeded at its purpose.


Any good maker--that understands this-- can make a thing--shaped like a knife that the hockey mask guy can't break.

It will look like a knife but it will not cut like a knife.

You can even make it cut--for a short time--just long enough for the duration of the silly cutting things he does in the beginning of the videos.

He performs the cutting at regular increments throughout his testing procedure, illustrating how good (or bad) the knife is at retaining its edge after punishment. Perhaps he should add something to the testing process that does a better job of testing this aspect? Certainly his process has room for improvement.


If you don't know what I have just posted above--you will think that "Cheaper Than Dirt" thing is actually a better knife than other knives that Broke before it did.

Reluctantly, that is my conclusion, yes.


By you thinking that they have any validity or value you are showing how misleading this sort of thing is.

His tests are pointless.

I must completely disagree. While his testing methods are certainly not perfect, they are some of the best and most informative ones I have ever seen. Practical exercises that approximate very rough use, similar to what I might imagine having to do in the field.


When he broke the Reeve knife--it was 100% predictable.

Once the blade was firmly stuck in the wood--the continued hitting of the spine was causing a shock wave in both direction out the Blade from the point of impact.

If he was NOT holding the knife--the knife would have stayed together.

His Own hand--on the handle--was dampening the shockwave and not allowing the blade to flex freely from the impact.

The knife Broke right in front of the Dampener (his hand) that was preventing the blade from flexing to the end of the knife.

So let me get this straight. Stewart is saying the test was not fair, because the man was holding onto the handle of the knife while he was chopping with it??? Uh, how else would someone be expected to use it? I actually own a CR Project I myself, and really wanted it to do well, but it simply did not. That is a big heavy knife, its purpose should be to do big heavy things (like chopping), not just dainty things. I can certainly envision myself using this knife to chop things, and of course I would be holding it with my hand.


Regardless--once he hit it with a metal hammmer--it was no longer a legitimate test.

Not really. I can envision a situation where I might have to hammer the knife into something for some reason (perhaps to use as a step), or a situation where the knife might accidentally be dropped onto a hard surface. Noss (the guy that does the tests) does say that the hammer test is very hard and most knives, even really tough ones, do not survive that stage. The point of the destruction test is to really find out what the true limits of these knives are. If most knives survived the entire process, then you haven't really learned the limits of those knives. I like to know those limits, if for no other reason that I don't try to do something with one of my knives that would end up breaking it.

[Ole WV Coot]

I have a couple, retired now a 40+yr old K-Bar USMC & a John Ek edge & 1/2 that I depended on for more than a camping trip. They could be destroyed, maybe by his tests but the main thing is they worked for me. I treated them like they were hard working tools and they never let me down. I just don't put much faith in that kind of test, if you want to call it a test.

[skunkkiller]

the best knife is high carbon steel keep it clean and dry and it will last for a life time .You can use the back of the to start fire all day long and kill and clean game make shelterand dig roots.