Group Survival 101.

[Sarge47]

I started a new thread dedicated to group survival as I feel that I might have gotten off the thread topic on the other one and this is probably going to be a lengthy thread. How many of you ever saw the "original" movie: "Flight of the Phoenix"? In the film a plane crashes in a large African desert; the pilot, played by James Stewart, starts out as the leader of a group of survivors. Two of them strike out on their own, but one comes back and one dies in the desert. The one that comes back is near death. The time is shortly after WWII and "anti-German" feelings still run high; however, a German airplane designer, played by Hardy Kruger" becomes the leader for awhile because only he knows how to re-design the plane to fly them out. Needless to say, he is an "unpopular" leader! After the plane is fixed and started up James Stewart regains leadership as he's the only one who can fly them out. One scene that stood out for me in the film was when they all had to work together, pulling the airplane into the proper position for take-off. They all were involved because it was the only way to save their lives. This is kind of what I'm talking about.:cool:

[Sarge47]

I think that you make a good point here VW; ergo are we looking at "Short Term" (ST) vs. (LT) survival situations. In ST situations our leader criteria probably wouldn't be as sophisticated as in LT. An example might be that everyone is lost but one member of the group. Since that person knows the way out it's "Lead on, McDuff!" & away we go! We might be stranded on an Island with no way off except for the person with the boat! This does not give the leader anything but the responsiblity to use their particular knowledge or equipment for the good of the group.

In any sort of LT situation the criteria would have to be more "in depth". I don't believe that any of us in the Wolf Pack would need to learn survival skills out in the field as it's pretty obvious that we all are up on that. Likewise on equipment as everyone has their knives, firestarters, etc.. It would require something completely different to move us "outside the box..or out of our comfort zone." Maybe a disaster that has one or more of us needing serious medical attention. Remember, if your not in danger, it isn't "survival".

I "do" believe that the problem that would arise in a group like this would be psycological; the mental move from one of "independence" to becoming a "team-member". We would have to bond and trust one another in all things until the problem is solved.

[owl_girl]

Volwest have you ever seen the movie dogvill? just wondering.

[trax]

How did we ever manage to form societies? Everyone seems so sure that any group in a survival situation is going to fall all over itself with the last two survivors fighting it out to the death for the last scrap of bacon rind or whatever....people bond, period. They form groups and the groups learn to adapt to the environment and either thrive or die out. some individuals depart the group, and either join another group, start another group or spend whatever's left of their days as loners. Same thing, thrive or die out, all part of a much larger process, but it happens all the time and has happened since the beginning of time.

[trax]

For making me yawn uncontrollably, nevertheless, yeah....ALL I'm saying is...people have managed to "bond" and go far beyond bonding for many thousands of years....that's all. You and so have I and so have several other people in different postings mentioned that the things we talk about are situationally dependent, so.....so is this. It was just one little piece I wanted to add.

[Sarge47]

Okay, anybody besides me notice what is going on here between Trax & Vol West? 1st we have two Alpha males in the pack snapping at each other on two seperate threads.:D 2nd, it is what is known in "polite society" as "a personality clash".:eek: The clash is not in their respective opinions, ideals, & concepts, but rather how they express them. Here on the forum it's no big deal. It actually is a learning experience. Not only are we who view these posts learning from all that they have to say, not only are we learning more about their background, experience, and education, they are getting to know one another.

If we were in a deadly situation, however, would they both stop their debate long enough to bond, become team-mates, and help keep the group/pack going? I believe that they would.;)

BTW, VW, While I have not been in a train wreck, I have had my school bus totaled out while I was driving it; while I have not been "under fire" I have been married twice...do either of these things count?:D

[owl_girl]

Owl girl...no i haven't, you want to talk about it ?

Well if I talk to much about it that might ruin it for you if you decide to see it. One thing I will say is the beginning is really boring, I almost turned it off because I don’t have that long of an attention span but don’t turn it off it gets better. Based on the beginning I did not expect that ending. I loved it though I was depressed the rest of the day lol. Mostly I was just wondering what you would think of that scenario.

[trax]

Volwest! You can't agree now, Sarge will be so disappointed in us!:D well, ok...

Sarge, I agree with Volwest

Owl_Girl...I'd like to learn more about that movie as well, because amazingly, I passed it by for something else just two nights ago at the movie rental place, but it looked interesting.

[owl_girl]

Owl_Girl...I'd like to learn more about that movie as well, because amazingly, I passed it by for something else just two nights ago at the movie rental place, but it looked interesting.
Id’ definitely recommend it. But it dos start out a little slow. If you see it tell me what you think.

[wareagle69]

i think that somehow we have been sold(brainwashed)into thinking that we need to fear what we do not know. i know that i protect what i have with ferocity, i wonder i i might miss out on a friend during a situation because i fear that he is going to try to take what is mine

eaver see the movie contact, i love that movie and forgive me for butchering this quote but it goes something about "why is it the contention of every politician that all aliens are hostile" to which he replies "why is it every egghead assumes that they are benign. where do i fall in as shtf scene i will probably(and unfortunatly) asumme that everyone is hostile

[Sarge47]

i think that somehow we have been sold(brainwashed)into thinking that we need to fear what we do not know. i know that i protect what i have with ferocity, i wonder i i might miss out on a friend during a situation because i fear that he is going to try to take what is mine

Could you explain this a bit more please, Wareagle?:confused:

[wareagle69]

sure sarge.

let me think on how to explain this differently.
it seems in the movies that i have watched and grown up with it is always one man against the world. look at most apoctalyptic movies, it seems that one or two ppl are hiding out and hordes of angry or recently raised from the dead mobs are after what you have. i think we are taught to miss trust anyone nowadays with all the deviants and pervs out there guilty until proven innocent any more and even when proven not guilty(never innocent) there is always doubt left in ppl minds. my dealings w/ ppl in life itself have left me this way. my whole life i wanted to be a soldier, which i became the best of the best they said "rangers lead the way" and i did, they taught me to kill and i did, then when my tour was up and i had to deal with the loss of 18 comrades, the miltary said well yor a civillian now best of luck, betrayed by what i beleived in, so when the shtf and some one comes down the street how will i react? the way i have been trained to do my whole life. fortunatley my wife is a good person and has learned about my life as an americian ( and she still loves me anyways) and has learned how to deal with my personality but i fear that, in a world of hypermachoism the samurai warrior no longer is allowed to exsist.

sorry to get so deep ,once istarted typing , weel you know

[spiritman]

A little bit of maths...
1+1+1+1+1 = 5 is bonding.
1+1+1+1+1 = 1 is unity.

You + me + Sarge + Trax + Wareagle + everyone here = Wolfpack

That's what sarge was doing when he wanted a name for the group, something we could all stand behind.

I am a wolf

[spiritman]

An example might be that everyone is lost but one member of the group. Since that person knows the way out it's "Lead on, McDuff!" & away we go! We might be stranded on an Island with no way off except for the person with the boat! This does not give the leader anything but the responsiblity to use their particular knowledge or equipment for the good of the group.

I find that an interesting statement sarge, I agree with it in the sense that the guy with the boat has certain power. I want to compare it to the $1,000 knife. I think because of how modern ppl think about ownership the same thing would happen. A bad example of what I think could happen would be like jack in lord of the flies, while a good scenario would be the owner standing up and using his knife to benefit the group. I don't think it would be taken away, but he would have some very specific responsibilities that others don't.

[mangyhyena]

Leadership:
I have been on other survival forums and I have seen a widely held assumption repeated time and again. (Not by everyone, but by a high enough percentage of survivalists that it's worth commenting on.) The assumption is that because survivalists have knowledge and skills pertaining to survival they're a natural choice as leader of a group, assuming no one else in the group is as knowledgeable or skilled. I think this is dead wrong. I think that even though the survivalist has these skills and knowledge, there may well be someone better qualified to lead within the group, even if that individual does not have those skills and knowledge. Have any of you ever worked in a place where a new lead, supervisor, or manager was hired and he/she didn't know as much about the business as you did? Why do you think that individual was hired over you? Perhaps that individual has proven, through a job history, that he/she is a competent leader with skills valuable to your place of business even though his/her particular skills are not specific to the tasks you perform at your job.

Let's look at the one thing so many believe qualifies them to lead: knowledge and skills pertaining specifically to survival. You're in a group where you're the only one who knows what to do to stay alive and has the skills to do so. You will use those skills and knowledge to benefit the group on the condition that you become leader. Great, now you're in charge because you've blackmailed them with something they need to survive. But how long before the rest of the group learns your skills and has your knowledge? They will learn very quickly because their lives depend on it! Once they do, why would they need you to be in charge anymore? Answer---they don't.

IMHO, leadership requires more than knowledge and skills. Perhaps Volwest could comment of what qualities make for an effective leader. And what type of leader is required during a long-term emergency.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I wouldn't choose to be the leader of a whole group. I would do it if there was no one else and they chose me, but I know there are others who would do a better job. In other words, I'd do in a pinch, but I'm not the ideal candidate. I'm not afraid of the responsibility (or at least afraid enough to reject the job if it needs doing) and I do not believe I'm a totally incompetent leader, I just believe there are other people who are more skilled at actually leading groups.

Just being honest.

What do you all think?

[owl_girl]

wareagle,

Pretty much all men want to "save the world".
I cannot talk about it more because it is related to religions..."one man vs the world"...But thank you for expressing this "tension".

You also talk about the fear of the unknown...this is another instinct of ours, and like many others, comes from a time where venturing out of the cave was synonymous of extreme danger. "Out there", is the unknown, and the safety in numbers was paramount to survival.
Of course today, this instinct, like many others, has taken a different shape, it has evolved with us (not much), and governs many of our "actions" (re-actions).

The "taking what is mine" thing, can be observed in dogs when we approach their food bowl. This is more linked to the fear of "lacking", and this subject can be a gold mine for the survivor, because it exposes many unconscious processes impacting our survival. Maybe i'll talk about it later...


"so when the shtf and some one comes down the street how will i react? the way i have been trained to do my whole life."

I think this is an amazing statement...it shows how programed we are to do certain things...you link your conditioning to the military, but the rabbit hole goes way, way deeper.
Conditioning is another subject we might talk about if you are interested...

A dog grads his food bowl because of fear of lacking? No a dog grads his food bowl because of fear of loosing his dominate position. You are lower ranking then him so you get to eat last. If your dog is grading his food bowl from you you need to establish your role as leader not treat his fear of lacking. I’d train him for you but I’m to lazy to walk that far lol

[Sarge47]

Okay, here's some stuff to chew on. 1st, I only used the $1000 knife because the respondant in the post he mentioned it mentioned also "pride of ownership."
I believe that I could be lost in the woods with any or all of this group and we would have enough knives, guns, poison darts and machetes to scare off Osama Bin Laden! I used the knife because it was an easy thing to grab on to to demonstrate what has certainly proven itself here, that just about everyone here, while certainly qualified enough on a solo jaunt in the woods, might find difficulty in accepting authority! Yet, in order to survive, you just might have to do that! If I had both the mindset and the $$$ to purchase a $!000 knife, and the leader of the group told me that, for whatever reason, I had to give the knife up to save someone else's life, even someone who was totally unpopular along with the fact that I'd never see the knife again I'd do it without grumbling...much. What's a human life worth? Less than a $1000? Nonsense! I'll bill 'em later & buy a nicer one, but if I saved a life in the meantime...well that's what survival is all about, isn't it? Saving lives. Now please comment, especially some of you lurkers!:rolleyes:

[trax]

Is there a point to your example of chaos theory? We shouldn't help someone because later in life they might make something bad happen? I mean, that's the example. I'm just asking here, you've gone to great lengths to point out how stupid I am so clear this up for me. Doesn't chaos theory mean that nothing is predictable? Maybe humans should stop breeding altogether because some people grow up to be serial killers.

[Sarge47]

Chaos theory is unpredictable, you demonstrate that yourself, VW. In everything that I teach to anybody who bothers to listen is this: I err on the side of caution." Who's to decide who's going to live or die? What if someone wanted you out of the group because they felt your words were very offensive to them, but to do so would put your life in danger? How could we, in all humanity, jeprodize your well-being over someone else's hurt feelings. It gets back to Authority & Law Enforcement. All life is precious, and if someone you saved kills others, deliberately or accidentally as a result of you saving their life, so what, you didn't do it. Are you physic? Can you tell in advance who's going to do what? No. Neither can I, so we don't let someone else die because we don't know what the future holds; only if, by letting them stay, we would be endangering the welfare of the whole group!:eek:

[Sarge47]

"Perhaps Volwest could comment of what qualities make for an effective leader. And what type of leader is required during a long-term emergency."
mangyhyena.


First off, i agree with you. The "best" leader for a group is not necessarily the one with survival knowledge, or military skills, or medicine power, or the biggest muscles, or who knows what.

The leader will be the one that is able to influence us in the most effective way. This influence might be a skill desperately needed, or a certain knowledge, or like Sarge said, the simple owner of the last gun/knife/dart.

All of this under short term conditions is going to be what it is...for it means that we will not choose the leader, we will be under the spell of his influences.

Now, long term group cohabitation is a lot more complex. And leadership positions would happen the same way it always has. The qualities of this individual will depend on the direction, the composition, and a multitude of other factors emanating from the group itself.
Making a list of qualities would be pure speculation as to what this emanation could be...

But, there are traits that are observable in any leader, and the list that FVR posted, is after all not a bad one...for the perfect followers of a leader.

Natural born leaders are often charismatic individuals, with a pronounced sense of self. They are coherent towards themselves, and we feel safe in their hands. Charisma comes from the greek " divine gift", and it is the gift of influence.
Those individuals seem to project calmness and focus, confidence and assertiveness, but more importantly, they communicate very well.
This communication skill is the ability to adjust their speech to anyone...for we all do not hear the same way. It seems those individuals are born with this gift, and charisma cannot be acquired through life. You got it, or you don't.

Through out history we find such individuals that have had "the gift", and charisma has fallen into the realm of mystery. Charismatic people are everywhere, but often time, because of conditioning, or outside pressure, they were not given the opportunity to express this side of themselves...and this natural leadership mystery, stays locked in a box we call, personality.

I believe that in a group situation, the leader will emerge by himself, and only time will tell if this leader was and is the "good one", after that, nature will take it's course, and a pretender to the job will eventually challenge the position with or without the help of the group.

VW, this is probably the best post you've ever written! It speaks right to the heart of the matter. Sometimes :"Charisma" is often over-rated. Trust in said leader is, in my opinion, priority one.:cool:

[owl_girl]

Okay, here's some stuff to chew on. 1st, I only used the $1000 knife because the respondant in the post he mentioned it mentioned also "pride of ownership."
I believe that I could be lost in the woods with any or all of this group and we would have enough knives, guns, poison darts and machetes to scare off Osama Bin Laden! I used the knife because it was an easy thing to grab on to to demonstrate what has certainly proven itself here, that just about everyone here, while certainly qualified enough on a solo jaunt in the woods, might find difficulty in accepting authority! Yet, in order to survive, you just might have to do that! If I had both the mindset and the $$$ to purchase a $!000 knife, and the leader of the group told me that, for whatever reason, I had to give the knife up to save someone else's life, even someone who was totally unpopular along with the fact that I'd never see the knife again I'd do it without grumbling...much. What's a human life worth? Less than a $1000? Nonsense! I'll bill 'em later & buy a nicer one, but if I saved a life in the meantime...well that's what survival is all about, isn't it? Saving lives. Now please comment, especially some of you lurkers!:rolleyes:

If it would save someone’s life I would give my knife up without having to be asked. I would have a hard time accepting authority if I didn’t trust them. I don’t consider my self a large group person, I do prefer to have the company of 1 or 2 people so I don’t conceder my self a loner either. There’s no intimacy in a large group, its just a mass. Outside of my family I don’t usually seek out the company of a group. My closest friends are my family including my cousins. If I was in a survival situation I would trust them completely. I have a couple friend (2 or 3) outside my family that I do seek the company of and that’s plenty enough for me. As far as the rest of the public goes well they accept me but I don’t feel at home with them. If I was in a really large survival group I might seek out a couple other people to partner up with to watch each others backs. Although I realize that could turn bad if I wasn’t careful, people might think we’re alienating ourselves from the rest of the group and become suspicious.

[owl_girl]

Through out history we find such individuals that have had "the gift", and charisma has fallen into the realm of mystery. Charismatic people are everywhere, but often time, because of conditioning, or outside pressure, they were not given the opportunity to express this side of themselves...and this natural leadership mystery, stays locked in a box we call, personality.
I think we have different definitions of personality, isn’t charisma part of your personality?

[Sarge47]

If it would save someone’s life I would give my knife up without having to be asked. I would have a hard time accepting authority if I didn’t trust them. I don’t consider my self a large group person, I do prefer to have the company of 1 or 2 people so I don’t conceder my self a loner either. There’s no intimacy in a large group, its just a mass. Outside of my family I don’t usually seek out the company of a group. My closest friends are my family including my cousins. If I was in a survival situation I would trust them completely. I have a couple friend (2 or 3) outside my family that I do seek the company of and that’s plenty enough for me. As far as the rest of the public goes well they accept me but I don’t feel at home with them. If I was in a really large survival group I might seek out a couple other people to partner up with to watch each others backs. Although I realize that could turn bad if I wasn’t careful, people might think we’re alienating ourselves from the rest of the group and become suspicious.

You hit the nail right on the head, Owl Girl! If you were in a "large group of people you did not know you might have to respect the authority of that group. A good example is the Military. There are Officers who shouldn't be there and could cost lives. However they are not accountable to the group.
Here are some "Key Words": "Authority. Accountability. Team. Teamwork." How would you define these terms and how do you think they might apply?:confused:

[owl_girl]

lol...I am sure we have different definitions of personality.

Where can you observe charisma out of those 3 domains ?
-personality
-temperament
-energetic nature

The energetic nature, is in my opinion, the subtile foundation that establishes, no matter our awareness of the subject, our true way of communicating with the world. But we have to understand that it is an emanation and not psychology, therefore, any living being would perceive us (independently of his mind, but in his body) in a specific "mode".

It is part of it because it affects it, but it is not created by it. Our personality is not the source of charisma...i do note that personality can smother charisma...i.e. the box.

Do you watch the show "lost" ?
If you don't, there is in it a perfect example of smothered charisma by personality in the character of "jack", the natural born leader, that does not accept his role, his nature.
Actually the show is a gold mine for survival/group insights...and the theoretical philosophical approach to natures.

I see…I think. I’ve seen lost a couple of times but I don’t usually watch it.

[owl_girl]

You hit the nail right on the head, Owl Girl! If you were in a "large group of people you did not know you might have to respect the authority of that group. A good example is the Military. There are Officers who shouldn't be there and could cost lives. However they are not accountable to the group.
Here are some "Key Words": "Authority. Accountability. Team. Teamwork." How would you define these terms and how do you think they might apply?:confused:
If someone has authority over me then they have the ability to make decisions above my own, accountability, kind of like responsibility, team a group of people that come together to use each other and work together to accomplish the same goal, teamwork when a group is working together efficiently. Don’t know if that’s what your looking for.:confused:

[wareagle69]

conditioning is definetley a good adjuctive for it also volwest,you see i do not think of myself as the deep thinker that you and the sarge seem to be, i go more on instinct. in the group dynamic that we are talking about with the idea of giving up a 1000 dollar knife to save a life, first thing i'm going to think is how is this going to effect me and mine. selfish maybe but honest.

[trax]

Trax,

It simply means that what seems obvious is often time not.
I was referring to Sarge's comment about saving lives...

This is about acting instead of re-acting. That is all i talk about in every post. If you stop to help because of all the inventory you have gathered over the years, it is no longer "a choice", an action, it is simply a reaction...and this reaction will haunt you.

"First you must unlearn all that you have learned" wasn't that Yoda to Luke Skywalker?

"There is do and there is do not, there is not try" same two conversationalists.

So, isn't the inventory we've gathered over all those years conditioning? It's pretty hard for most people to get past that. Personally, I try to make a decision in any situation that I believe is right for that moment or situation. Of course, I can't avoid totally letting previous conditioning and/or training influence me, whether it's something my parents taught me or CPR or the Golden Rule or Murphy's Law, lol. Oddly enough, in several "crisis" situations I've been in, I've simply gone ahead and done what I thought was the right thing, much to the chagrin of the supposed "leaders" and the things I've done have always worked out well for myself and those around me. Authorities however, often seem more concerned with people adhering to their process than in the results people might achieve on their own, no matter how positive.

[nell67]

wareagle,

That $1000 knife is worthless if it isnt used for the good of everyone,and who knows it may just be you or a member of yours that it may be saving,if not this time then maybe the next time. After all in a true survival situation,money is itself probably going to be worthless,which would make the value of the knife nothing if not used to help when it is needed.

Not trying to start an argument just offering my opinion here.If it was my knife and it was the only thing we had that could save your life,I'd give it up in a heartbeat.

[trax]

wareagle,
After all in a true survival situation,money is itself probably going to be worthless,which would make the value of the knife nothing if not used to help when it is needed.

...but, but it's his knife....probably his Bear Gryll's autographed one:) Actually I thought that was brilliant Nell.

Not trying to start an argument just offering my opinion here.If it was my knife and it was the only thing we had that could save your life,I'd give it up in a heartbeat.

yes, you are..you're trying to start something....come on now, admit it...don't worry wareagle's a big boy he can take it :D :D

[nell67]

nah not really trying to start anything ,just trying to get some to think about what is more valueable,a life,or money spent on a knife that could be used to save that life,you can carry it around every day of your life,but it has no value whatsoever just hanging there on your side,you gotta use it to realize the true value in it.Personally,I would not spend a dime on anything that I could not or would not use,and using it to save one or all members of a group just increased its value. I do not put value on things,I put value on the lives around me.


Ok maybe I am trying to start something....

[wareagle69]

as a matter of fact i got it last week when i graduated from bears school i was his top student.

nell i do not perceive this as an attack, i understand everyones thinking about saving a life and the good of the group, but how is giving up a knife going to save a life? are we bartering with hostile forces in that case i will not surrender a weapon, maybe i do not understand where this whole idea came from but before i turn over anything to anyone i will consider how it will efeect myself and the ppl i am reponsible for if someone else has to die but the ppl i am protecting live, well i shrug my shoulders with indiference.

[nell67]

no not a personal attack hun, say someone in our group was being attacked by.... a bear..and all the yelling and hitting with whatever we could get our hands on has done nothing to stop the monster from its attack,the only thing left is..."the knife".... would you use that knife to stab the bear even though you might not kill it, but it does cause the bear to retreat and possibly take the knife with it into the woods,we might or might not find the bear later dead and you recover the knife,or the bear may not die at all and the knife is lost....would you?

I know this is pretty much an unrealistic scenerio(in my area anyways),but it just popped into my head since you mentioned Bear Grylls,LOL just a whatif

[Sarge47]

as a matter of fact i got it last week when i graduated from bears school i was his top student.

nell i do not perceive this as an attack, i understand everyones thinking about saving a life and the good of the group, but how is giving up a knife going to save a life? are we bartering with hostile forces in that case i will not surrender a weapon, maybe i do not understand where this whole idea came from but before i turn over anything to anyone i will consider how it will efeect myself and the ppl i am reponsible for if someone else has to die but the ppl i am protecting live, well i shrug my shoulders with indiference.

Okay guys, here's what I'm saying: Wareagle's right, the knife was not the issue, pride in personal possesions over the greater good of the group was the point. In every evaluation, weather or not your evaluating yourself alone or with others you need to search out your weaknesses and find ways to strengthen them. Only then will you become the true survivor, hopefully. My perception of the Wolf Pack is that it is growing in knowledge, skills & equipment. I would "ride the river" with any one of you. However their is a weakness in this group when it comes to authority, trust, and teamwork. That is very understandable, after all we really don't know one another save for this forum. How does anyone know that they can truly trust anyone else?
The clue was in the Keyword: "Accountability". The group giveth, the group can taketh away. The reason many of you struggle with this is that your not partial to big groups. Can't blame you as neither am I. I do like to think, however, if it would keep everybody alive that I would follow instructions. If I think that doing so is going to be a problem I'll 1st bring it up before the group and hopefully get them to agree. If they do there'll be a new sheriff in town, if not it's back to the drawing board. But trust me on this, in a survival situation nobody's going to have time to worry about politics too much.:rolleyes:

[wareagle69]

wouldn't need to nell, allot of ppl here seem to be dangerous and can hunt anything or throw poison darts or even lightning bolts from their arses or cast magic spells so i would feel perfectly safe.

[nell67]

lightening bolts?? I missed that post LOL

[trax]

wouldn't need to nell, allot of ppl here seem to be dangerous and can hunt anything or throw poison darts or even lightning bolts from their arses or cast magic spells so i would feel perfectly safe.

Not too sure I'd feel perfectly safe with someone shooting lightning bolts from their arses....

[wareagle69]

i think you both understand the deeper meaning of my sarcasm.

[FVR]

So we have a group of people, one knife, and a bear.

Who's going to run up to the bear and stick it in? You're going to loose the knife and maybe your life.

I would think that if there was one knife, say 5 / 6 people, one of those people would have the insite when they take stock of their equipment, to make 6 spears. Real easy, whittle down to a point and wow you're done. 6 spears poking a bear, bear just might get a diff. idea for lunch.

Really depends, if the person who gets attacked by the bear, was he doing something stupid? will engaging the bear bring harm to the rest of the group?

Are you really bad enough to take on a bear, well maybe if you have a $1000.00 knife. Reminds me of an Lt in Panama, he had a big knife. He wasn't worth a pot to piss in.

Personally, don't give up my Kabar. I'll make you spears, cut down some bamboo and make kick arse knives for you. If you want to take my knife, ya gonna get cut.

Honestly, after I go through all the scenarios in that split second while a team member is getting attacked by a bear, I'll stick the freak'n bear, and I'll die.



...and killed the bear that killed me.



Anyway, l am dead.

[spiritman]

Okay, here's some stuff to chew on. 1st, I only used the $1000 knife because the respondant in the post he mentioned it mentioned also "pride of ownership."
I believe that I could be lost in the woods with any or all of this group and we would have enough knives, guns, poison darts and machetes to scare off Osama Bin Laden! I used the knife because it was an easy thing to grab on to to demonstrate what has certainly proven itself here, that just about everyone here, while certainly qualified enough on a solo jaunt in the woods, might find difficulty in accepting authority! Yet, in order to survive, you just might have to do that! If I had both the mindset and the $$$ to purchase a $!000 knife, and the leader of the group told me that, for whatever reason, I had to give the knife up to save someone else's life, even someone who was totally unpopular along with the fact that I'd never see the knife again I'd do it without grumbling...much. What's a human life worth? Less than a $1000? Nonsense! I'll bill 'em later & buy a nicer one, but if I saved a life in the meantime...well that's what survival is all about, isn't it? Saving lives. Now please comment, especially some of you lurkers!:rolleyes:

Ok sarge, you asked for it! lol

Having to GIVE UP your knife for good to save someone would be an incredibly extreme case, I can only think of one reason you would have to give up your knife for someone else (even reading about the bear scenario) and that's when someone with a gun is making you give them ALL of your stuff or they will kill members of the group. In any other circumstance You will be able to reclaim it or be the one to use it.

Survival isn't about saving lives, rescue is about saving lives. What's the point of just 'surviving'? One person can live out their days alone but without others, or being able to pass on your knowledge to help others there is no point.

Example; There was a guy who decided to live off the land by himself so he got a rifle and his camping gear and left for the woods. He lived well for a while hunting from an old abandoned bus he found. He ultimately did a few things wrong, and ended up dying, but before he did he wrote in his journal about sharing. That life itself was worthless without someone to share it with, even our lone wolves are married!

[spiritman]

Okay guys, here's what I'm saying: Wareagle's right, the knife was not the issue, pride in personal possesions over the greater good of the group was the point.

I agree with wareagle in a different way, the knife was never gonna be an issue over the greater good of the group without someone blabbing to a strange possible armed and dangerous person about this bagileon dollar knife that could part a mountain and catch your food for you and make rain fall out of the moon on demand.

[FVR]

No man is left behind.

Volwest, you know this.

[wareagle69]

how's his mind vol can he still lead or do we need to put him out to pasture .

[spiritman]

After all, we are only as efficient as our least efficient member.

I'm not so sure about that, That's an old statement that could use some help.

There may be some things you couldn't do as well but for the most part that wouldn't be the case unless this is a tiny group, like things that you used to be able to rely on someone for but now can't. but we aren't talking about a battle or a sneak attack on an enemy stronghold, there would be things that the weakest could do, teach for example.

[spiritman]

Let's put it this way then...

We are being tracked.
A group of 20 armed men are on our tail...and old Sarge there can't run anymore, and he coughs so loud that trax is getting a little nervous.
If those goblins catch up to us, it is certain death to our men, and sorry girls, it's going to be a long night.
You see the fear in your wife's eyes. And by that point Owl girl is having a panic attack.
We have no guns, and no time to find a somewhat decisive maneuver to loose them for good. They are closing in, and we either go faster, or we are ****ed.

When that's the case then your right, and it gives sarge the opportunity to be a better man than the rest of us... as he stumbles off coughing valiantly in another direction... I think our sarge would have already left while we were still trying to figure out whether or not it was moral or not to leave him behind.

[wareagle69]

i can hardley wait till sarge sees what we have been up to.

[spiritman]

lol yeah I'm waiting for him to pop in and say something........

[FVR]

Wow.

Can you ask another to do what you yourself may or may not do?

The better question is, you can't run, you cough too loud, you are going under no matter what, what is your decision? With your wife looking in your eyes.

I know my decision, what's yours?

[wareagle69]

that's a hard question fvr hard question.goona put some thought into that.

[wareagle69]

i sit here and picture my wifes face if we were in that predicament. a very helpless feeling comes over me.my wife and i have talked about who should go first, i love my wife with everything in me and would never disrespect her but we both know that she has a weaker constitution than i do, she cannot handle stress the way i do,linda plays tough but that's becuse she knows that i am here for her, if she were to go i would be angry and alone but i would survive, so back to your question, what would i do unable to move causing harm to her and the group, all that i can say is that i hope that another one of the warriors is able to protect her.and i would fight to the death to give her time to escape.

[Sarge47]

Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I've been reading your posts and laughing my butt off! Before that I just got through watching the newest "Survivorman" episode and guess what he did, showed the proper way to drink urine, with a solar still! Okay, here come the bad guys, and you all want ole' Sarge to save your young little tails, is that it?:confused: No problem, but I don't go off alone! Oh no you don't, not with some former Army Rangers on hand. This is gonna be a team effort and your all gonna be in on it!:eek: The guy with the poison dart has got point, of course. Wareagle and Trax will back him up with stone/flint knives. If all that fails then VW jumps in, starts talking and confuses the crap outta them while I sneak up behind them and slit their throats with that expensive hunk of hardware...Hey! I love made-up scenarios, got any more?:rolleyes:

[wareagle69]

btw. that question bothers me to no end.my whole life as you guys know has been as a protector in some form or another, so to envision myself unable to protect what means the most to me quite frankley angers me.

enough said....

[FVR]

This poison dart dude, he better come through. He better be spittin'm and s*itin'm, fast, real fast.

Now honestly, there are 20 and they have guns. You have the Army Ranger, French Marine, US Marine, Sarge, a bunch of hunters, few young guys who think they are invinsable.

And a few very pissed off woman.

20 guys with guns, they better go back and get re-inforcements.

[wareagle69]

sarge ya make me laugh. i wonder while you were away from the computer if you felt the icy cold hand of death descending upon you from your merry men.

[wareagle69]

[.

.

And a few very pissed off woman.

time to duck and cover

[FVR]

Wareagle,

The question is just plane scary. To be helpless, unable to protect, if you survived, how could you continue to live.

My answer is very much like yours.

[wareagle69]

if i did live and recover..it would take me to a dark place that i have always hoped i would never have to go, even linda reconizes it is there she has told her friends god help anyone that ever tries to hurt her. i would not kill the sob but guarentee he will wish he were dead..

[Sarge47]

sarge ya make me laugh. i wonder while you were away from the computer if you felt the icy cold hand of death descending upon you from your merry men.

No i didn't, but it did my heart good to read those because for once you were all on the same page! Even VW & Trax were working together, fantastic! That's the "group mentality" I've been talkin' about. Of course the part where I go off and die...(sob).:rolleyes:

[wareagle69]

surprised me too ol vol and trax.

[spiritman]

What do you mean "I'm right"...i haven't said what i would do yet. lol

lol guess you didn't, but you put forward a scenario that would almost force my hand contrary to what i think about the "weakest member" issue. if I was the one to go? I wouldn't welcome the idea I but could only see it going one way. whoever stays behind would probably die or be a prisoner. And as much as I like the idea of being clever and doing as much damage to the enemy I doubt I would hurt more than a couple with a one man ambush IF I even had a weapon.

[Sarge47]

if i did live and recover..it would take me to a dark place that i have always hoped i would never have to go, even linda reconizes it is there she has told her friends god help anyone that ever tries to hurt her. i would not kill the sob but guarentee he will wish he were dead..

I can understand and relate to your problem. 1st, though, let me just say how much I appreciate reading about how much you guys love your wives. I've been having to deal with a dysfunctional family on my wife's side. No steady relationship in existance there, and there are two children involved.

There are no "right" words to say when someone loses not only a spouse, but a "soul mate" as well. I believe these words are true, "that when two people marry, they become one", at least that's the way it should be; we all know that it doesn't always work out that way. I also believe that death is inevitable. One of my favorite films that I haven't mentioned is "The Kingdom of Heaven" with Orlando Bloom. In this one scene he's trying to discourage a fellow knight from joining up with the Army. His line is: "You go to certain death!" The other guy smiles cryptically & says: "All death is certain." and off he goes to die in battle. I hear you brother wolf.:cool:

[wareagle69]

i agre with what vol west was sayi... oh look pretty birdie

[trax]

Geronimo, was and still is the most amazing warrior i have ever studied.

I certainly agree with that. Again too, our scenario is dependant upon environment. For instance, if we were in a hilly,rocky area, we could place Sarge on top of a precipice somewhere with some large rocks and a lever. A couple of our younger guys lead the pursuers down a path below Sarge, Sarge heaves on the lever at the right moment, gasping and coughing no doubt with the TB, but the ensuing rockslide takes care of twenty bad guys, thanks mainly to one tubercular old wretch (sorry Sarge), but thanks overall to the team putting the trap together and leading the bad guys into the trap. No one gets left behind, no pissed off women.

I'm certain that between us, we could think up similar "traps" in different environments, that's just the first one off the top of my head.

[trax]

surprised me too ol vol and trax. Geez you guys, just cuz we had one little disagreement of opinions???:D You check back a few of the threads and you'll note there's quite a few things we've agreed on...and if you think about it, if we disagree with each other that well, how formidable are we when we're in agreement!

[trax]

"It is the man with nothing to loose that is the most dangerous,(in the situation you described that would most certainly be Sarge) and if we feel that we have something to loose, we will be distracted, and fear will become a nuisance instead of a fuel.
We must first think like them. (Absolutely, Know your enemy)
We must enter their minds and pluck out their motivations.
We must become them, and understand them.
The best hunter does this with it's pray.(Very true, the best way to track something is to be where it's going to be before it gets there, track by it's habits, certainly not by it's hoofprints or you'll always be just behind it) It is not being in the "now", it is being 5 seconds in the future...always ahead of their re-action...for re-act they will."

[Sarge47]

This is the 72 hour kit (BOB) from the "national terror alert response center"...I wrote it exactly the way they wrote it, same spacing and presentation.

What do you think of it ?


-1-2 gallons of water per person, per day should be stored for sanitation and drinking.
-method of water purification
-food
-72 hour supply of food and water
-warmth and shelter
-windproof/waterproff matches
-second method to start a fire
-tent /shelter
-wool-blend blanket or
-sleeping bag
-emergency reflective blanket
-lightweight stove and fuel
-hand and body warm packs
-poncho
-light sources
-flashlight and batteries
-candle
-light stick
-tools
-pocket knife
-shovel
-hatchet or axe
-sewing kit
-50 foot nylon rope
-first aid
-first aid kit and supplies
-burn gel and dressings
-bottle of potassium iodide tablets
-communications
-radio with batteries or radio with alternate power sources
-whistle with neck cord
-personal sanitation
-personal comfort kit (include soap, toothbrush and gel, comb, tissue, sanitary napkins, razor)
-extra clothing
-a complete outfit of appropriate clothing for each family member. Include extra socks, underwear, hat, sturdy shoes and gloves.
-money
-at least $50 in small bills in your kit. Be sure to include quarters and dimes for phone calls.
-stress relieversGames, books, hard candy. For children: small toys, paper and pen, favorit security items.
-important papers
-copies of documents important to your family (such as birth certificates, marriage licenses, wills, insurance forms), phone numbers you might need, credit card information
-additional items
*extra food
*camp stove mess kits and other cooking equipment
*sun block
*insect repellent portable toilet-special medication, extra glasses-portable container
*durable water resistant duffel bag, frame pack or day pack

Sounds more like "bunker supplies" than a "bug-out" bag, though I suppose you could include a BOB in their somewhere.:rolleyes:

[trax]

I concur, gentlemen.

[spiritman]

Hey maybe the portable toilet has wagon wheels! lol pile everything in it and your good bug out!

That much junk belongs in your house not your bag

[Sarge47]

So i am sure we can all agree on the fact that this 72 hour kit is less than practical.
I was very surprised also to find this list poorly written, with redundancies, making it even more unpractical for the "common" individual wanting to be somewhat prepared in the event of an emergency. Keep in mind this list comes from "homeland security".

I was wondering if we could all together here prepare a new list, stemming from experience and reason, to be presented to their offices or at least be posted here, and that would be easy to understand and put together by the common American family... without breaking the piggy bank of little Lucy.

I also think that this new and improved 72 hour kit should please us enough, that we might make one for ourselves, or for a family member.
We can obviously talk about it, but i would leave fire arms out of this kit.

For starters, it is obvious that this 72 hour kit should be light enough to be carried by this family, in case of having to evacuate their home as we saw in New Orleans. I am against duffle bags, suit cases or buckets or anything that will require the loss of an arm/hand to be transported around.

So the first item we could look into is the bag itself that will contain this kit.
I believe it should be a back pack...
Which one ? There are so many out there...and how big ? For how much ? How is it made ? how many compartments ? What color ? etc...

are you in ?

I'm in VW! I also am in agreement about not listing firearms as that might encourage inexperienced people to run out, buy a gun, and increase the liklihood of: 1.) More shooting accidents, and 2.) might create a conflict of interest with Law-enforcement. Since, in my opinion, cost might also be a factor I think that we should stick with low to medium priced equipment. I'll start out by suggesting a large Army surplus Alice pack. I just got a new Sportsman's Guide catalouge and they're selling them for around 50 bucks.:cool:

[spiritman]

Ok so any one can add or change this, 1 (ONE) item at a time, offering a reason for their change.

Sarge started with the pack so I'll add...

Alice Pack
A good knife (I say it like that so there is no more battle, you insert what you prefer because thats what YOU will be happiest with)

[Sarge47]

Ok so any one can add or change this, 1 (ONE) item at a time, offering a reason for their change.

Sarge started with the pack so I'll add...

Alice Pack
A good knife (I say it like that so there is no more battle, you insert what you prefer because thats what YOU will be happiest with)

Remember that VW wants to send in a list for serious cosideration, therefore I suggest saying "a relible knife with a blade in the 4 inch range.":rolleyes:

[spiritman]

I agree, we need to be more specific. How about 4 to 6? more room for preference.

[spiritman]

Alice Pack
Knife- 4-6 inches in length


What's next?

[nell67]

army type shovel--to dig out possible shelter and/or to dig out/cover a latrine,among other uses.

[spiritman]

Well I don't know to much about a pack so in that I have no input other than I like having a water reservoir but it makes water conservation a challenge for a while since it's right there all the time and you can't see how much you have left.

I do know what I have learned about knives. It's just harder to lose or break a fixed blade knife. End of story. And you wear it on your belt or the packs belt so pack space doesn't matter as much. I would go with a buck knife like mine but I don't have the specs right now so I'll get back to you on that.

As for plain or serrated I don't like serrated, but others swear by it. I think it gets in the way of most of the work you will do with it because it's at the base on most knives and cutting rope isn't what you'll be doing all the time. I'd be interested in one that had the serrations on the top part of the blade.

Full Tang for sure.

High carbon steel. I like 420, it's easy to sharpen and clean. Something like S30V however will stay sharper for them as long as they don't smack it around. I like it too but I have my buck (420) in my survival kit to be.


I also like the shovel idea, how/heavy is it? I have a small collapsible backpacking one that's not very big but pretty functional. I have seen one broken though so I wouldn't count on it for serious digging.

I think we can get a general list together, and Volwest can make us be more specific and address each new item we gather as we go along. He's good for us, makes us put more thought into things.

[trax]

I also agree with the no firearms, based on we don't necessarily know who's filling the list, don't want someone being referred to as "Ol' Nine Toes" after the 72 hours.

I also like the idea of one of those small all steel hatchets with the rubber hand grip or the new fiberglass or whatever the heck that stuff is handle. The all steel is less expensive and they're very handy. YOu can carry them on your belt too if walking.

and paracord, I noticed the original list had "nylon rope"

[Tony uk]

LOL, looks like the stuff i would find in a bomb shelter :)

[Sarge47]

ok...

I think we can all agree on 550 cord.(the real stuff should have 7 strands inside yes? Important, because each strand can be used...)
100 feet can be bought for under $10.
It's one of those ultimate must have. Lot's of fake stuff out there, but the 7 strands makes it easy to spot.
I don't understand why the moron put "nylon rope" on their list...makes no sense.


Back to the knife...Spiritman says good things.
But if i had to make this for a friend, i still think that i would put a KA-BAR in there.
1095 carbon, 7 inch blade, strong, dependable, around $70, it's been tested, it's not too heavy, fits well in most people's hands, is easy to find anywhere...
I would stick with a straight edge...too keep it simple. I think it is a knife that will inspire confidence and trust in it's owner.

Back to the pack.
For now we have the Alice. What do you guys think ?
I do not have one, and i don't know what they are made off. How they sit on your shoulders, if they have compartments...and so on. you guys are going to have to fill me in on that one.
I currently have a camel back BFM at about 42 liters, and a 3 liter water bladder.
Amazing pack but expensive...and i don't think this would work for us here.
60 liters of cargo space should probably be what we should aim for.
How big is the Alice ?

A shovel made it's way to our list here.
Really ?
I have one that stays in the car...it is indeed a great tool, but i wonder about the practicality of such a heavy tool (even the small collapsable ones are heavy).
I suggest that we put it on the side for now...and at the end, if we have room we can re-asses it's place in our kit.

1st, the 7 strands of the 550 (parachute cord) are also made up of smaller strands that can be used as thread. The Ka-bar knife can be bought as low as under $50 at places like www.tomarskabars.com; and the large Alice pack is HUGE!:eek: It was used by the military in Viet Nam and could hold a ton of stuff! How about medical, signaling, &/or lighting?:confused:

[Tony uk]

I used a 100 liter Bergan used by the British (And the Best) Army to carr a week of stuff in, HEAVY :O

[spiritman]

With what you say about the k-bar I am cool with that. as long as it's straight edge.

I have a camel back type bag too, but not as big as yours but for a bob type thing I would want the bigger model.

[Sarge47]

Sarge..."Huge" means nothing to me...give me liters. IMO, anything above 60 liters is crazy.

For the knife, we have one vote for buck, plain edge...and one vote for the KA-BAR.

-Mirror.
The star flash signaling mirror can be found anywhere and is also under $10.
it's so small and light anyway, i don't see why we wouldn't include one...maybe coupled with a pea-less plastic whistle to complete the signaling group. (probably a Fox 40...should be under $7)

Okay VW, I don't know liters, but according to US calvary, the large Alice pack has 3800 cubic inches of room. I hope that works.

[Sarge47]

Ok...1 cubic foot is about 28 liters.
So 3800 cubic inches would be about 62 liters. I like it.



You don't have to use the external frame, however I've seen them for sale in used/good condition with the frame for under $50. They also have 3 large external pouches, 3 small external pouches, a pouch hidden in the top flap, and an interior pocket that can hold a water bladder! Check it out at www.uscav.com; check under A.L.I.C.E. packs. Funny, I figured an old military hand like yourself would have known about 'em!;)

[spiritman]

Maps definitely great to have, and with them a compass.

Some kind of light, like a crank flashlight or lantern. The crank style because you can use it and crank at the same time. It needs to be fairly tough though.

Any thoughts?

[trax]

With the area maps, essential. Were you guys down with the little axe? I'm good with either knife, never owned a k-bar but have heard nothing but good about them, and I agree on the straight edge.

60-65 liter pack should be plenty.

[spiritman]

I am kind of torn either way. Yeah it is only 72 hours, but what happens after? and how much constant light will we need? But on the other hand is it worth the energy? I doubt it so I guess I have talked myself out of that... lol I have a mid size one that i use for work and I haven't changed the batteries yet.

LED's are my choice!

[spiritman]

"the little axe"...tough call here, let's see what others say about it.

Well.... For 72 hours? Why? Why not? I have one and keep it at home actually, but I don't expect to use it really, I don't live close enough to anywhere to use it but if I did i would probably put it in there.

So that's a relative item.

What about for fire? it's just 72 hours so a waterproof case of matches would definitely have it covered IMO, but I would also bring my magnesium match. possibly a lighter.

[Sarge47]

Here's a thought, we're talking bug-out, right? Not "hunker-bunker" mentality? An led light is good, but the new battery-less "shake-up" flashlights are better as you don't have to continuously check the batteries.;)

[Sarge47]

Yeah, i bought one of those to test it out...WHEN it worked, it drooled out less light than a star in the sky. Like the concept though...
LED's can be pretty small...tough, reliable...what's not to like here ?

LED's are good, I own a few myself. Although I think emergency candles would be a good addition.:cool:

[Sarge47]

You guys are going too fast...or i am too slow.
Maybe we should proceed differently.

What about, everyone posts a list that fits the description of a 72 hour kit for the general public...we can then review and critic each list together, and explain why we chose the items in question...At the end, we should be able to create one list.

I think the problem here is that we are getting too specific as each of us are listing what we personally would use. Perhaps we need to be more generic in our list, for example, instead of listing the A.L.I.C.E pack you could list: Pack: X amount of litres/cubic inches capacity Minn., or some such. This way anybody could pick up whatever's available locally in their area at a price they feel they can afford? Also, could you list how to find that site that gave the Govt.'s 72 hour list? I'd like to read it.

[trax]

then become more specific through the critiquing process..I agree with volwest about the compass, most people don't know what to do with them any way. I can leave the axe behind (pouting, but I can) So we each put together something, and then become more specific as we critique in terms of brands or sizes, weights etc. Just from what I've read so far I'm certain we'll all be pretty close with one another any way.

[spiritman]

-back pack aprox 60 liters or 5000 cubic inches

-Bic lighter (adjustable)
-matches in water proof container (strike anywhere)
-flash light / batteries (LED)
-emergency candle in a cigar tube container

-whistle
-star flash mirror

-maps (city/town/village-state)
-button compass

-potable aqua water purifier tablets
-army canteen with cup
-72 hours of food (MRE's)

-USMC poncho
-hat / gloves (leather gloves imo)
-cotton bandana
-extra pair of socks

-KA-BAR
-multi tool (Leatherman "wave")
-duct tape (wrapped around something else so save space if you need to)
-100 feet of 550
-monocular / binocular
-trash bags (large heavy duty)
-cell phone
-pen and paper
-safety pins
-AM / FM portable radio (crank?)

-first aid kit
-prescription medication

-important documents (passports, birth certificates...)

I would add one more way to light a fire, the magnesium match. Saves your other fire starters.

Also, two way radios are an option.

[nell67]

-back pack aprox 60 liters or 5000 cubic inches

-Bic lighter (adjustable)
-matches in water proof container (strike anywhere)
-flash light / batteries (LED)
-emergency candle in a cigar tube container

-whistle
-star flash mirror

-maps (city/town/village-state)
-button compass

-potable aqua water purifier tablets
-army canteen with cup
-72 hours of food (MRE's)

-USMC poncho
-hat / gloves (leather gloves imo)
-cotton bandana
-extra pair of socks

-KA-BAR
-multi tool (Leatherman "wave")
-duct tape (wrapped around something else so save space if you need to)
-100 feet of 550
-monocular / binocular
-trash bags (large heavy duty)
-cell phone
-pen and paper
-safety pins
-AM / FM portable radio (crank?)

-first aid kit
-prescription medication

-important documents (passports, birth certificates...)

I would add one more way to light a fire, the magnesium match. Saves your other fire starters.

Also, two way radios are an option.
blanket preferably wool blend
reflective blanket
heavy duty plastic sheeting

[owl_girl]

blanket preferably wool blend
reflective blanket
heavy duty plastic sheeting
If you have the money you could get an alpaca wool blanket. Alpaca wool is more expensive then sheep’s wool but its also stronger, warmer, softer, and it weighs less. An alpaca is an animal that look kind of like a lama but cuter and they breed them for their fiber.

[Sarge47]

Hello girls.

Alpaca blanket ?
Never heard of it...sounds pretty good, i am going to investigate.

I find the reflective blankets horrible. First, they are noisy. Second, a large trash bag will achieve the same level of insulation if not better. Third, they are fragile. Fourth, they never fold back well.

The heavy duty plastic sheeting is cool, but not necessary with the poncho and the trash bags.

The reason i did not include a blanket is that they are pretty bulky and heavy...and for 72 hours, well, i just didn't think it was needed. But i guess it also depends on the location, if someone lives in a cold climate it might be considered a priority.

I use the "Sportsman's All-weather Blanket" made by MPI. It's the original space blanket with the grommets in the corners and can double as a heat-reflecting tarp.:cool:

[Sarge47]

Indeed one of the better ones.
Still don't like them.

Hmmm, guess I won't send you one for your birthday then, huh?:D

[spiritman]

-back pack aprox 60 liters or 5000 cubic inches

-Bic lighter (adjustable)
-matches in water proof container (strike anywhere)
-flash light / batteries (LED)
-emergency candle in a cigar tube container

-whistle
-star flash mirror

-maps (city/town/village-state)
-button compass

-potable aqua water purifier tablets
-army canteen with cup
-72 hours of food (MRE's)

-USMC poncho
-hat / gloves (leather gloves imo)
-cotton bandana
-extra pair of socks

-KA-BAR
-multi tool (Leatherman "wave")
-duct tape (wrapped around something else so save space if you need to)
-100 feet of 550
-monocular / binocular
-trash bags (large heavy duty)
-cell phone
-pen and paper
-safety pins
-AM / FM portable radio (crank?)

-first aid kit
-prescription medication

-important documents (passports, birth certificates...)

REGIONAL/OPTIONAL

-extra ways to start a fire ex: Magnesium match
-two way radios

Cold Weather:
-blanket preferably wool blend
-reflective blanket

Hot Weather:
-Collapsible plastic water container 3-5 gal. (you can fold it up when it's empty

[trax]

I'd add that collapsible water carrier for any environment. For blankets, you can't beat down-filled for lightweight and warm, but the price of your kit just went way up if you go for that.

[nell67]

-back pack

-Bic lighter
-matches in water proof container
-flash light / batteries
-emergency candle in a cigar tube container

-whistle
-star flash mirror

-maps (city/town/village-state)
-button compass

-potable aqua water purifier tablets
-army canteen with cup
-72 hours of food (MRE's)

-USMC poncho
-hat / gloves
-cotton bandana
-extra pair of socks

-KA-BAR
-multi tool (Leatherman "wave")
-duct tape
-100 feet of 550
-monocular / binocular
-trash bags
-cell phone
-pen and paper
-safety pins
-AM / FM portable radio

-first aid kit
-prescription medication

-important documents (passports, birth certificates...)


Amounts have to be discussed (water/food)...and of course the content of the first aid kit. But for 72 hours, this list should give a survival advantage beyond basic needs in the event of an emergency.
Did i miss something ?
This list does not address infants and dogs...which we will have to talk about.
Also, and this is why i don't like this BO thing, having all of this stuff will have a great impact on the community. Can you imagine walking through New Orleans after 3 days with this on you ? You become a walking general store open for business. I feel that those kits are just a safety net for us to sleep better before an emergency...we feel prepared, and it is a good feeling, but in all honesty, as soon as you step out in a desperate environment, it is going to be a very different story.



should also include a detailed list of medications in an airtight, waterproof plastic bag inside the first aid kit and another copy on your person,should the unthinkable happen tand the medications themselves are missing include your personal physicians name and phone number on this list.

[nell67]

sure, I'll do it,I'll start with what I carry in mine,I have 4 ,and they pretty much the same in each.

Just let me go through one and I list it .

[trax]

Yes, and your blood type too...

Would you care nell to make a list for a first aid kit ?

medical and medication allergies have to be part of that list....

[nell67]

What would you change?

1 case
1 Bandages Plastic Assorted
- (1"x3", 3/4"x3", 5/8"x2 1/4") 60/box
5 Bandages Plastic 2"x4.5"
1 Bio-Waste Bag 1 Gallon 11"x14"
3 Burn Jel Packettes 1/8 oz.
20 BZK Towelettes
2 Cold Pack Unit
1 Compress 4"x4"
4 Cotton-tip Applicators 3" 2 pk
1 emergency blanket
1 Elastic Bandage 3"x5yds.
1 Eye Pads Medium
1 Eye Wash 1 oz.
1 First Aid Guide
1 Gauze Pads Sterile 3"x3" (10/box)
4 Gloves, Vinyl
1 Roll Gauze 4"x4yds
1 Scissor lister bandage 4 1/2"
1 Tweezers
4 Sting Relief Towelettes
1 Tape 1/2"x10 Uncovered
1 Triangular Bandage 40"x40"
10 Triple Antibiotic Ointment Packettes

This is the kit as I purchased it,to it I added

1 tube of super glue
a sewing kit
small bottle of alcohol
small bottle of peroxide
additional vynel gloves
butterfly type tape
1 epi-pen- requires script
1 ace bandage
safety pins
sterile water
additional plastic bags to dispose of waste
pen/marker and paper
do not laugh at this one ,1 package of feminine hygeine products
for obvious reasons,plus they also make excellent absorbant pads for large wounds(use the ace bandage to secure in place)

[trax]

Looks good to me, add in the information sheet with necessary meds, blood types and med. allergies (unless that's there and I missed it, in which case I apologize profusely)

[nell67]

Looks good to me, add in the information sheet with necessary meds, blood types and med. allergies (unless that's there and I missed it, in which case I apologize profusely)

haha you got me,I was sitting there looking at the med list and didnt even add it to my list,I do have an epi-pen listed(for severe alergic reactions),in my medi-cabinet I also have meds for poison ivy prescription for steroid tabs,and anti itch creams and such but not in my basic kit (yes I consider this my basic kits).

[nell67]

I do not include other than a triangular "sling" a method to stabilize a fracture,anything strong found in your surroundings may be used as long as the break does not go through the skin,I once ace bandaged my daughters arm to my arm when she was kicked by a horse ,I could not have done that if I had had to drive (her right arm) hubby drove,but my arm was the most suitable thing around for her injury,the doctor himself said he would not have thought of that but it was a good idea.

[trax]

I'm allergic to nothing, but I know people who have to carry those epi-pens full time and I know people allergic to.....here goes...aspirin, penicillin, morphine, now the rest of the list escapes me just cuz I'm trying to show off, but you get what I mean.

[nell67]

I'm allergic to nothing, but I know people who have to carry those epi-pens full time and I know people allergic to.....here goes...aspirin, penicillin, morphine, now the rest of the list escapes me just cuz I'm trying to show off, but you get what I mean.


hehe! my mother was allergic to penecillin ,ANY type of numbing agent stitches were taken without being numb,my duaghter is severly allergic to the bite of a common house spider.

[nohero]

-back pack

-Bic lighter
-matches in water proof container
-flash light / batteries
-emergency candle in a cigar tube container

-whistle
-star flash mirror

-maps (city/town/village-state)
-button compass

-potable aqua water purifier tablets
-army canteen with cup
-72 hours of food (MRE's)

-USMC poncho
-hat / gloves
-cotton bandana
-extra pair of socks

-KA-BAR
-multi tool (Leatherman "wave")
-duct tape
-100 feet of 550
-monocular / binocular
-trash bags
-cell phone
-pen and paper
-safety pins
-AM / FM portable radio

-first aid kit
-prescription medication

-important documents (passports, birth certificates...)


Amounts have to be discussed (water/food)...and of course the content of the first aid kit. But for 72 hours, this list should give a survival advantage beyond basic needs in the event of an emergency.
Did i miss something ?
This list does not address infants and dogs...which we will have to talk about.
Also, and this is why i don't like this BO thing, having all of this stuff will have a great impact on the community. Can you imagine walking through New Orleans after 3 days with this on you ? You become a walking general store open for business. I feel that those kits are just a safety net for us to sleep better before an emergency...we feel prepared, and it is a good feeling, but in all honesty, as soon as you step out in a desperate environment, it is going to be a very different story.

Volwest
Never talked with you before but thought I would bring up a few items that might be worthwhile.
Combination carbide and ceramic sharpener for knife
3 watt led Minimag flashlight with extra set batteries
Steripen to disinfect water uses UV light
Emergency Cell Phone Charger (uses 1 AA battery)
Bottle insect repellent
Package of Wet Ones
Small pair Bonoculars

Here is the problem I see with the kits, and don't misunderstand me, I have several in the cars and house. One, they have to be specific. What I mean is you have to know what you are trying to survive, what season, and what part of the country you're going to be in.. My bugout kit is setup to get me to East Texas where I have relatives in the country. I also have setup at the house equipment and supplies for 60 days. I figure that will take care of most emergencies until help arrives. If help does not show, then it's time to leave anyway. Like you, I live in a major metropolitan area (Dallas/Fort Worth) with a combined population base of 4 to 5 million. I believe things could get really bad here really quick. The point I'm trying to make is that these kits are for short term survival only. I'm not an expert and don't pretend to be, but I have taught survival to Boy Scouts, gone on weekend, one week, and two week survival treks and unless we brought food (which we weren't allowed to do) we always finished up as very hungry campers. This is with firearms and a fair knowledge of edible plants. I cannot imagine trying to take care of my family under those circumstances and keep them fed, sheltered, and protected. Again, don't misunderstand I have kits for those eventualities like everyone else, and I use them regularly trying to become more proficient,I just don't believe they're viable long term. What makes the most sense to me is having a preprepared location to go to, whether it is a remote retreat, a weekend farm, or a relative's home in the country. At that point if there is a long term disaster scenario, you have the ability to store food and water, have a garden, and still hunt if possible. One other thing. Have you ever went deer hunting on the first day of the season? The deer are nowhere to be found because all the people in the woods. What do you think will happen if just 1 million of the 4 million people in this area decide to evauate to the country. By the way, I'm addressing this to you because I went to your website and figured if anyone would know, it would be you. Anybody else, feel free to jump in also. Does this make sense to you?

[nell67]

Good list...i would add or modify certain aspects of it like:



-razor blade(s)
-more sterile gauze pads (different sizes), less band aids...or ABD pads ("tampax" works too).
-flash light
-tube of neosporin instead of packets ?
-ibuprofen (fever reducer)
-blister pads
-thermometer
-suture kit

Like the tube of neosporin,it is reclosable ,the packets are not,and I agree with all of the suggestions,these were prepackaged kits I added to and I am always looking out for more to add to them,I know that there should be a weight/size resriction also so have been looking at what I can add that can do "doubleduty" in my first aid kit (like the hygeine products,they have more than one purpose).

[wareagle69]

good point vol

[nell67]

Yes, "adding to it" just seem to be what it's all about.

We could also add a good snake/insect bite kit. (the syringe suction type)...
For weight and size i have 3 different ones.
-a car first aid kit (medium size)
-a personal one (very small, and part of my day to day carry bag)
-and the main one at home, in it's own army medic bag, which would come with me if and when...

Thank you for your prompt and efficient work.

I would love to have one of the army medic kits,lots of great stuff in those,Ihave been eyeing one online for a month or so.

I keep adding to mine because since my husband is diabetic,even a scratch on his leg could become dangerous very fast,and I find the kits I purchased at the local shop not very well put together for treating wounds for people like him and not just diabetics,and I realize that in a situation where we would need to "bug out" puts him at a much higher risk for infection,and medical treatment could be a long way off.

One thing I have in my car kit that I did not list,is a seperate indentifiable diabetic kit,it includes all testing supplies,an isulin pen that does not require refridgeration,glucose tabs and juice boxes ,in case his sugar goes too low.

These are additional items in my kit and of course not every one will need to keep these in their kit.

[Sarge47]

I can't help but wonder how all this will affect the average person who doesn't know squat about Survival, the equipment needed, or even the inclination to shell out more green for the better quality gear? Also, looking back at the Govt.'s list I think they listed so much stuff thinking that some of it might be better than none and let folks pick out what they've already got of could afford to buy.:cool:

[nohero]

I think you're right about the gov't list. The main point being is that some equipment and supplies are better than no equipment at all. Most people have made no preparations at all. That is who this list is for, not for people like us who try and plan in advance. You guys are also correct about people tending to buy the cheapest stuff unless thet are familiar with the equipment and actually use it. I try and get the best value for my money regardless of the total costs because if something happens and you have to use this stuff, I want the best I can afford. I don't want it to break at a critical point while I am using it. You're not going to be able to replace things when they break. That's why my primary tools are the best I can afford but I buy some midpriced and inexpensive spares. Perfect example would be my knives (notice I said s as in plural) My main knife is a Cold Steel Trailmaster bowie that I have had for 20 years. I paid $175 for it back then and have never regretted it. It uses San Mai steel. You have a carbon steel center layer sandwiched between two layers of stainless. The carbon can be made razor sharp and the stainless gives it flexibility and strength. The blade can be bent 40 degrees and still return to true. I have given it heavy use for twenty years and it is almost indestructible. It comes with a black cordura sheath to which I have added a spandex wrap which holds a hacksaw blade in back and a flat frog gig. My backup is a folding Gerber lockback with a half serrated edge, and the backup for that is a Leatherman Wave Tool. Than I have half a dozen misc. folders and sheath knives for spares or family. Too many people just buy the cheapest they can get and expect them to perform on a level of tools costing many times more. You pay for what you get and you get what you pay for.

[nohero]

I don't carry the spares in my kits, they are at the house. The Gerber goes in my pocket when I put on my pants.

[Sarge47]

Keeping it real ?

Pretty subjective stuff there sarge.

Sorry Vol, we had to reject this post, it's about 5000 words too short!:rolleyes:

[Sarge47]

Back to this again. I started a thread awhile back about picking a leader. Obviously the odds are against picking a group, you take the cards you're dealt. However if I could pick a group based on what I've learned from the guys here the choice would be the following.

Vol-West
Owl-Girl
Foggy
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
Trax
Wareagle 69
Marscroft

That's seven right off the top of my head, although I'm sure there's more, just can't remember them all. Assuming that everyone has come through whatever survival situation we face unscathed I would not suggest picking a leader, but rather forming a team. The knowledge displayed by this group suggests that all know what to do and each would use their particular skills for the better of the group. If the group is even numbered there maybe to be a"tie-breaker" selected in case voting is used. This, of course, is the best-case scenario. No one really ever knows with who, what, where, when, why, or how they might wind up. Nor do they know the state of their fellow survivors in any given situation. After all it's not a perfect world, and Murphy is still running around on the loose.;)

[FVR]

Use that skin pad, pilgrim,
before you lose all your fingers.

Whatever you learned down in the flat
will serve you no good up here.


You got some work to do.

[Fog_Harbor]

Thanks, Sarge

[owl_girl]

Aww thanks Sarge.

When you trust the people your with its not that difficult to form a team however if your with a bunch of strangers who are reckless and headstrong it could take a long time to function as a team.

[ryaninmichigan]

[QUOTE=Sarge47;5700]
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
QUOTE]


I am not sure what you mean by this. Did I post something about this?

[trax]

...except that one guy..Trax?...he gets a little weird, what? oh um, never mind...:D :D :D

[Sarge47]

[QUOTE=Sarge47;5700]
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
QUOTE]


I am not sure what you mean by this. Did I post something about this?

Thread title: "An Absolute Must Read!" Post 14. Although I may have you confused with someone else.:confused:

[ryaninmichigan]

Nope that was me forgot all about it. Anyway thanx for choosing me to be on your team.

[trax]

check out what you can buy for onl $395, advertised on this site! it's supposed to be a 72 hour kit for 10 people.http://www.safetymax.com/store/product.asp?id=274&catid=199&cscatid=30&scatid=259

[FVR]

There always has to be an Alpha Dog. Nothing worse than sitting down and having to debate, discuss, and argue about every decision.

Sometimes you have to take the hill, because you have to take the hill.

But then I'm a military man. If the wood needs to get cut, cut the freak'n wood, don't argue about who is going to do it, just get the job done.

Ahh, but what do I know, I just get the job done.

[Sarge47]

Me thinkum you braves sayin' "Too many chiefs, not enough injuns?" So white man have solution? How we pick chief from this tribe?:confused:

[FVR]

The dynamics of the tribe will determine the leader.

If you have a bunch of greenhorns, the leader will be the one who has the most knowledge. Knowledge is power.

If you have a bunch of military pers., the leader will be the one with the most respect. Respect is earned, not given. Most, respected leaders were good followers, they knew when to push, when to stay, and when to take a step back.

Sarge, the leader of your group will be Volwest, his second in command will be wareagle. The leader will train his replacement, his second in command.


The leader will eventually fullfill his destiny, he should gladly back off and let his second in command take the reins. The former leader at that point will be the wiseman, a confidant, the one that may not have the final say, but has the wisdom to input what the leader may miss.

I'm just the smartass that cuts the wood.

[Sarge47]

The dynamics of the tribe will determine the leader.

If you have a bunch of greenhorns, the leader will be the one who has the most knowledge. Knowledge is power.

If you have a bunch of military pers., the leader will be the one with the most respect. Respect is earned, not given. Most, respected leaders were good followers, they knew when to push, when to stay, and when to take a step back.

Sarge, the leader of your group will be Volwest, his second in command will be wareagle. The leader will train his replacement, his second in command.


The leader will eventually fullfill his destiny, he should gladly back off and let his second in command take the reins. The former leader at that point will be the wiseman, a confidant, the one that may not have the final say, but has the wisdom to input what the leader may miss.

I'm just the smartass that cuts the wood.

How many posts did it take to come up with a name for the leader? I'll vote for VW if you can promise me he'll keep the verbage down.:D Wareagle, ah yes! I'll probably call him "Snoring Moose" though.:D I can cook, gather wood, use an axe, sing, workin' on playin' my harp, (Not as good as Les, though) hope ya all like "Blues"; and the most important thing, take direction/orders! Sir, yes sir!:rolleyes:

[FVR]

Sarge,

You will only need to cook.


You cook good rabbit, pilgrim.

[Sarge47]

Sarge,

You will only need to cook.


You cook good rabbit, pilgrim.

Just keep VW out of my kitchen area; if he starts talkin' about having a relationship with the food........:rolleyes:

[FVR]

Nobody mess' with the grumpy cook.

Just make sure that you keep one cup of coffee hot. Good leaders let the troops eat first. It's always nice to have a hot cup of coffee.

[FVR]

The easy part is done. You have the leader, the second in command, and the cook.

Place your remaining group members.


Owl-Girl
Foggy
RiM (he could even have his 5 relatives)
Trax
Marscroft

[Sarge47]

Nobody mess' with the grumpy cook.

Just make sure that you keep one cup of coffee hot. Good leaders let the troops eat first. It's always nice to have a hot cup of coffee.

You'll have to teach me about coffee, I'm a tea drinker. Got this right out of a survival book, BTW, "Tea quenches thirst, Coffee agravates it. I always let everyone else eat first, that way if the foods bad I'll know!:D Also, what about Owl Girl, she's got some savy, any female who wants to study up on knife steel...;)

[FVR]

Now remember, if RiM and his 5 family members, (12 total) don't like what's happening. They can overthrow your group, or take all your provisions and set off and start their own group.

[Sarge47]

Now remember, if RiM and his 5 family members, (12 total) don't like what's happening. They can overthrow your group, or take all your provisions and set off and start their own group.

That's why we got VW & WE! VW can keep them psyched out and Wareagle will sic "Norm" on them if they get outta hand.:rolleyes: Seriously though, the thing is that in any survival situation anybody can do what you just said, if they have the numbers. The alternative may be leaving someone to die, and in my opinion that's not an option unless the situation warrants it, and then you'd better be 100% sure!:eek:

[FVR]

What you will find out is that your "group" will have sub groups. VW an WE won't have to win over the whole RiM clan. but rather win over the leader of that group.

With the creation of the RiM group, the other members will feel alienated, thus forming their own group.

In essence, VW will have a major headache and WE will have to take action.

WE will be pursued by both "sub groups" to influence VW for their own good.

At that point, WE's loyalty will surface.

We can only speculate what would happen. WE being a mil. man, will be in the most demanding position.



And I will be chopping wood.



"We have graves to dig."

[ryaninmichigan]

Your biggest problem will be the fact I own half the group form the get go. Not that I am that type of person, VW does way too much pondering to be my leader. If we need to cut wood we need to cut would not discover why we desire to have fire.

FVR is right sub groups will form and the leaders of these groups will collectively lead the whole group. You will have hunters, gathers, and camp keepers. There will be these sub group leaders and within the sub groups the pecking order will be formed naturally.

The key to survival is the diversity of the group and the willingness to put worth one effort in exchange for another. And to see the value of the other effort. I value the Gathers leaks and fire wood, while he values my venison and hides. WE both value the Cook and makers of shelter while we were gone…

We should start a thread based on a few assumptions Play each post as actions we are taking and see where the chips fall. Maybe we will all end up killing each other maybe we will end being the first trading post in the after TSHTF.

[trax]

volwest doesn't want to be leader? YOu might want to check with both he and wareagle before assigning all your other positions, and Sarge--I make the best campfire coffee (not my vote on that...I've been told) so I'll show you that and then I'm outta the kitchen, never P### off the cook!

[trax]

I asked that question based on how volwest described his own role in a group survival scenario. And I see that we already have a "challenge" to that position. Volwest didnt' seem like it was a role he wanted to take on.

My personal viewpoint, and I'm not a military man, but still am very much in agreement with FVR, get it done. Still, I wouldn't see myself in the position of leader either, there are certain tasks that I know I would excel at and I would start on those, conversely if a group leader says "not today man, we need you to give FVR a hand splitting wood or Sarge a hand in the kitchen" then I'm ok with that.

By virtue of the situation as we've visualized it to date too, group members need to have an awareness and respect for each other's positions. For instance, if it is RiM's and my job to hunt game for a group, then other group members need to appreciate that we're going to be keeping different hours. Flip side of the coin is, if FVR is hauling firewood into camp, he doesn't need someone *****ing "why aren't you out there gutting an elk with trax?" etc. You guys get the point, no need in my belaboring it.

Personally, my first choice for leader would be between FVR and Wareagle. If they take first and second post, with either of them in either order, I'm cool with it. The other consideration that every good leader is aware of is recognizing the expertise of the group members at their assigned tasks. So....Nell and owl-girl are both pretty good at finding wild foods, medicines etc, the group leader gets them to look, but doesn't say where to look or how or what to look for, that's their expertise. Tell me you need meat, don't try telling me how to get it, cuz I'll just smile and nod and do what I was going to do in the first place.

Just two cents worth.

[Sarge47]

Of course VW might decline leadership...up front! With his knowledge of psycology he could covertly lead from the flanks, without others being aware of it. His strength would be in identifying any potential problems within the group and suggestions on how to handle them. I think it looks more like a team, but maybe a team "captain" is also needed. Whoever is picked will have to be voted in unanimously as that would cause fewer divisions. And Trax, you could make coffee anytime pard, and stick around jawin' too! I was mostly joking about people in the way. There is a time for people to stand back, but not always. Finally, if there's a "common foe" outside the group, that can oft-times pull the people inside tighter together.

[owl_girl]

We should start a thread based on a few assumptions Play each post as actions we are taking and see where the chips fall. Maybe we will all end up killing each other maybe we will end being the first trading post in the after TSHTF.
You mean you want to role play it?

[trax]

I think that governance in a small group can rely heavily on "council", where a leader has opportunity to gain from any and all member's expertise. Immediate decisions, when required, are up to that leader. Disciplinary measures and "motivation" are also up to that leader. There's a time for both, council based decisions and unilateral decisions. Unanimous agreement is rare, but consensus can be garnered in those situations (vis: I don't agree with Sarge's coffee making, but for the sake of the group I agree to let him keep trying) A "foe" to the group is where volwest first suggested his own expertise. In a council setting he might suggest that he could utilize my skills, or WE's, or RiM's in dealing with those foes. The situation as I'm describing it is much like the way most North American native groups functioned back in the day.

Sarge just re-identified something that volwest mentioned earlier. His own penchant for being one who distances himself from the rest of the group because of the task that he has taken responsibility for, personally, I tend to be much the same way, that's the reason why I mentioned what I did earlier. Hunting is a good example, I'm going to be where my prey is when it's there, that may require me to be catching some sleep while others are working or hanging out around Sarge's kitchen looking for a bite to eat during "off" hours. The group...in council...finds agreement in that, the leader makes allowances for it to happen.

Of course, I'm babbling for nothing in a lot of this because I don't have the right to speak for volwest and he's definitely not someone I want to make assumptions for:rolleyes: The same goes for the FVR, WE, Nell, owl_girl and the rest. I'm just trying to throw in some "how about this..." scenarios

[trax]

I just had a thought. Actually two, one being that it's great that I'm supposed to be working and I'm sitting here typing to myself because the regulars aren't in that much during the morning.

The second one being....the size of the group and individual expertise. What I'm suggesting here is, kind of like the old days on the ball field. It was mentioning to lumpy that "if yer in yer in" that made me think of it. One common form of "group governance"....more than one group. I think we've got plenty of survival expertise among a lot of people here and plenty of mil. experience too, which is a great thing. We've had several people offer some of their expertise on survival without weighing in on our group survival thread. So we could have people choosing what leader they would rather follow, or what team mate they would rather work with, or leaders requesting someone based on the need of that group. Hope I'm not making everything too confusing..:eek:

[ryaninmichigan]

So SHTF, It is mid August and we are not going back to town for quite some time. We head for the big northern woods anywhere USA. Me and my clan are hauling our gear through the woods on our fourwheelers. Heading to a lake about 30 miles off the road We are about 15 miles out having just killed 6 rabbits we are looking for suitable camp site to make dinner when we notice smoke a mile or so away.

It is
Vol-West
Owl-Girl
Foggy
Trax
Wareagle 69
Marscroft

Having never met them we are reluctant move in. so we send in a single guy armed with a side arm, and a two way radio, nothing else to suggest we have anything of value. It’s me (I am the only dumb one.) Everyone else hangs back.

We meet and we determine for now that everyone is cool. You are out there about 2 days ahead of us. You invite us into your camp. It is 3pm gets dark at 10. I radio the guys. (I am making this easier in that somehow we are not with our families)


SOME background on us.
All of us are accomplished woodsmen who have been hunting, fishing, and trapping, since childhood. The oldest is 43 the youngest is 33. One is very creative when it comes to fabrication and fixing things, 2 are carpenters, and the last is well versed in many trades. I am leaving other info out about background and what we have with us until it is asked of me or needed.






Oh ya the last guys 10 to 12 we passed a day or two ago were not friendly.

Let’s discuss what happens next.

[trax]

Just for clarity's sake..you left out Sarge, I'm assuming he's with our group and you just skipped him accidentally..yes? no?

How many are in your group?

I want to talk with you and your guys about the "unfriendlies" What direction did they seem to be moving? What kind of firepower did they have? Did they have an overall appearance of competence in the woods? I'm already prepared to trust your judgement on the third question, the first two aren't judgement based questions.

I also want to discuss what we can offer each other as a merged group. For one obvious reason, the unfriendlies have us outnumbered as separate groups, if push comes to shove.

Another obvious reason, six rabbits by themselves don't make much of a meal for a group, but make a good contribution to a larger group meal.

[trax]

I think these last two posts could almost be a separate thread, or at least we can do a little more group definition before getting into this too much

[ryaninmichigan]

Yes Sarge is there. I was kind of directing it has initial post.

There are 4 of us total. The “unfriendlys” were at the last road 10 miles behind where we ditched the trucks. They were looting a gas station. They seem mildly armed some shot guns A couple hunting rifles. I think an AK or some Chinese nock off. They saw us and all our gear for sure. We ditched the trucks in cover and hit the weeds before they caught up. They were pretty busy loading up potato chips and cigs.

We know this area pretty well. And as you can see we have a ton of stuff with us. We can get into the particulars later. We are making our way to the lake where we are going to wait it out. When we were younger we would catch the crap out of walleye and perch in it.

The rabbits, ya it was going to be enough for us. We have some canned food but when opportunity shows itself. Keep the cans shoot the rabbits. But I see you have some berries and other things How about some meat to go along with it?

[trax]

I want the input of volwest and wareagle about the unfriendlies...I'm a big fan of pre-emptive strikes... and I probably want to discuss a long term, fortified group shelter with the tradespeople in your group. If we've been there two days, I'm pretty sure I'll have some meat and/or fish as well.

[ryaninmichigan]

Our plan was to make our way to the lake. And build a permanent shelter. That area provides us with a lot of resources. And there is some high ground on the north side of the lake we were planning on building on. You all are welcome to pack up and come along. We could use some hands to get the cabin built. And with this many people we could easily build more then one before it get too cold. Here is a bit of info. I am one of the carpenters. Ask away. Also Trax you seam to be the groups mouth piece. Or we are the only ones bored right now.

[trax]

Ask away. Also Trax you seam to be the groups mouth piece. Or we are the only ones bored right now.

No denying I'm mouthy, but I think it's cuz we're the only ones here right now. That's why I mentioned wanting some of the other folks input a while back. I don't think that group "pecking order" or whatever you want to call it has really been determined yet. I was just throwing in thoughts off the top of my head. What seems to be priority, kind of thing. If I don't do this, I have to log off and do real work, which involves directing the lives of people who are doing what they're doing for a paycheck. This is better, lol.

[owl_girl]

How long are we expecting this disaster to last? Are we going to be out there through winter? I’m having fun reading but right now I’m doing what I would be doing in that scenario ….quietly observing

[trax]

I've been making the assumption that this is something we should be doing some long term planning for, possibly months. I don't know why I was doing that, I just was....maybe that says something about me.

[trax]

No one wants to say anything about the other thread I started on this? hmmmm.....

[Fog_Harbor]

I've always tended to 'take up slack', which is to say I do the things that others don't want to do. I let people and their personalities work themselves out, and I don't participate in the inevitable politics of the group. As long as there is an established goal, and a plan, you can assign me anything, as long as the good of the group is served.

However, if everyone is trying to be the Alpha, and there is no goal and no plan due to the infighting, then you'd have to count me out - I'll take my chances alone.

[Sarge47]

A.) Where's law Enforcement? Townies looting gas stations implies TEOTWAWKI! How much coffee do we have? Trax is really hard to deal with in the morning until he gets that 1st cup into him.:rolleyes: The reason the question about the Townies is to ask if we shoot them 1st are we in deep Kim-Chee? In a survival situation you can hide out for awhile, but sooner or later somebody's gonna find you.

B.) Maybe the Townies were just stocking up? Where's VW, we can send him out to talk to them, find out where their heads are at, find out if their guns are loaded.:rolleyes:

C.) I would suggest holding off on any course of action until RiM's family gets to camp as they might have some intelligent input since Rim Said he was the "dumb" one;)

D.) What's the weather doing, and what season is it? E.) What's our camp like, are we hidden? RiM's group seemed to have stumbled right on us.

F.) How do we keep Norm from snoring and giving away our position? Maybe this could solve our "meat" problem for a bit, kill 2 birds with one round, as long as WE doesn't find out...:eek:

[trax]

However, if everyone is trying to be the Alpha, and there is no goal and no plan due to the infighting, then you'd have to count me out - I'll take my chances alone.

I don't think that's a concern, people seem ready to recognize other people's leadership for the most part, 'tis part ofwhy I brought up the piece about making sure the person wants the job first! But I do agree with your point, if that was what a group amounted to, I'd probably slip quietly out the "back door".

[FVR]

#1 How far did you drive before you ditched the trucks? How far from the unfriendlies?

#2 Did you notice the unfriendlies vehicles? Full size autos? 4 wheelers? Atvs?

#3 How much gas does your group have?

#4 That's a nice offer on the lake, we need to take a look as to ensure security.

#5 Sarge's group has women, yours does not. Agree right now that there will be no improper advances to the women in our group. If they want to take up with you, fine, if you force it, we will be digging graves. For you.

#6 We shake hands, all of us. This is the only honorable contract, we abide by it. If we have any disputes, they will not be poo poo'd.

#7 RiM, don't give me the BS that you are the dumbest, as of right now you are the rep. for your group.

#8 Let's have a cup of coffee, and tell us any of the latest news.


Oh, I'm only the woodcutter. VM, WE, here are my notes.

[ryaninmichigan]

A. This is it, I have everything I could carry of value with me. I do not expect to go home ever again.

B. Sure he can head out and talk to them. Not me, they had guns and did not seem to care about what they are doing.

C. I radioed the guys they are at your camp with me.

D. It is mid August fall will be here in 6 weeks.

E. Can’t answer that one.

[FVR]

Nobody needs to go out and talk to these bozo's.

We will have two person, 3 hour sentry's until the final destination is secured.

All persons must stand sentry duty, hunters get first watch as you need to get up early and get us meat.

Anyone have a good pair of bino's?


Oh wait a minute, I'm the freak'n woodcutter. Sarge, here are my notes.

[ryaninmichigan]

#1 How far did you drive before you ditched the trucks? How far from the unfriendlies?

#2 Did you notice the unfriendlies vehicles? Full size autos? 4 wheelers? Atvs?

#3 How much gas does your group have?

#4 That's a nice offer on the lake, we need to take a look as to ensure security.

#5 Sarge's group has women, yours does not. Agree right now that there will be no improper advances to the women in our group. If they want to take up with you, fine, if you force it, we will be digging graves. For you.

#6 We shake hands, all of us. This is the only honorable contract, we abide by it. If we have any disputes, they will not be poo poo'd.

#7 RiM, don't give me the BS that you are the dumbest, as of right now you are the rep. for your group.

#8 Let's have a cup of coffee, and tell us any of the latest news.


Oh, I'm only the woodcutter. VM, WE, here are my notes.

1. We had another ten miles till we dumped the trucks. Down an old logging road. They are pretty concealed but someone will find them at some point

2. 4 trucks all fourwheel drive anywhere from new to 10 ten years old.

3. the trucks still have some, we have around 50 gallons with us, including what’s in the four wheelers.

4. Cool look all you want. We will be pulling out in the morning.

5. We are honorable men who hold the women in our family very high. I have been know to intervene when I seen some red neck decide to slap his around in my sight. So deal. I will treat them as I would my sister and include all the protection that comes with.

6. I do what I say and I take a hand shack as contract.

7. I am not the dumbest, Just the dumbest to walk up on an unknown number of people alone. I watched for 30 minutes before I made my self known

8. I like mine strong. Let me tell you what we saw on the way in………..

[wareagle69]

well rim my lrrp knew you guys was a coming along time ago..
trax i agree with a council it is important to get the opinions of you seasoned members
in this scenario are we all familiar with our geography or were some on the road, need to know where each member stands on the familiarity of the area ie hunting fishing scouting wild edibles ect..

fvr i respect your wisdom, as we have chewed some of the same dirt so i will be looking to you for your help you can talk and split wood at the same time eh?

[FVR]

Yeh, I can talk and split wood. May take a little break and enjoy a cup of coffee while talking with ya.

Hey, boss is back.

Wonder if those new guys disabled their vehicles after they ditched them? An extra battery and alt. would come in handy.

Those atvs are nice, but they leave a trail a blindman can follow.

[lumpy]

My job was to go behind enemy lines to set up communication relay towers...and hold this position with 8 man.



To quote Will Smith's role in,Men in Black,"Now that's what I'm talking about."
vw has just addressed my two concerns in this one sentence.

1."My job was..."
The mission for this group has yet to be defined.The mission is what drives the military mind.If I'm going to risk my life, then I need to believe in the mission.Believe to the point that the mission is more important than my life, or yours.

2."and hold this position with 8 men."
Notice vw didn't say hold this position by himself.For this group to have any effectiveness in combat its going to have to train as a team.Train to the point that everyone starts thinking as one.

[ryaninmichigan]

Where to start ?

First off...nobody gets to walk in "my camp" uninvited, unnoticed, and armed. Especially in this situation...
Second of all, if you are invited in my camp, you don't get to see my team, or more precisely, you will see what i want you to see.
You are fairly young and i am assuming in good shape (carpenter), you seem at ease with this environment and you have a talky which means there are more of you out there.
I would hide FVR and Wareagle for sure, (but keep Trax to my left) and tell them before your entrance to observe from far away but within scope range...the scope being pointed at you. That leaves me at least 4 guys and 2 girls with me in my book, and 2 you do not know about.

The "others" that were after you are not my concern at this time...you are. And if they were looting a gas station for smokes and chips, i doubt they will venture in the woods...those guys sound like they are lazy predators.

As for the leader position, it is for all of you to decide this. Keep in mind that this is a forum, and while i enjoy writing for lack of being able to do anything else here...i am not thinking about **** all day long. I am first and foremost a marine...
My job was to go behind enemy lines to set up communication relay towers...and hold this position with 8 man. I was a sergeant and the leadership role does not faze me...

Another little info here...i do not shoot to kill...i always shoot to injure, and if possible, a fatal injury within 2 hours...not only this tactic is powerful on the psyche of your enemies for they see fear, death and pain in the eyes of their friends, but if i wound your friend, you will be helping him instead of shooting at me and my friends. Wound one, incapacitate 2 or 3.



I have not given all info needed. I have a background also. One I wish not to divulge (sp?) at this time.. And if I am in this scenario I wanted to “observe” your camp with out you knowing I would and will. I feel a bit of angst towards me for my previous posts. I will post more tomorrow it is 1030 here and I am tired.. Interested but tired. I am sorry everyone about the trucks. They are of course ready and waiting. I left a lot of info out that I thought was common sense.

[FVR]

This goes back to another thread that was posted about a week or two ago

Everyone in the team/group needs to have the same motivation and philosophy for being there. The goal must be the same for all and all must be willing to work towards that goal. If not, get out of the team because you are a liability.

That was a good thread, what happened to it? Lumpy, if you find it read it. It will give you some input on a few of us here. Volwest has already analyzed us, probably has files on us as we speak.

Oh yeh, found my freak'n bino's.



Damn!

That Hatchet Jack was a wild one.


He was living with a female panther.

Two years in a cave
up in the Musselshell.

She never did get used to him.

[ryaninmichigan]

This goes back to another thread that was posted about a week or two ago

Everyone in the team/group needs to have the same motivation and philosophy for being there. The goal must be the same for all and all must be willing to work towards that goal. If not, get out of the team because you are a liability.

That was a good thread, what happened to it? Lumpy, if you find it read it. It will give you some input on a few of us here. Volwest has already analyzed us, probably has files on us as we speak.

Oh yeh, found my freak'n bino's.



Yes but again VW has shut it down. VW if you are the leader cool. Don’t want to go with us? Cool too. Like I said were pulling out in the morning. Good luck to you and yours. I was just trying to make this interesting, go read a book. Good thing you are on the left coast………..

[FVR]

Well, funny thing. I'm not even listed in the group.

Just one man, passing buy, chop some wood, dry wood to keep the smoke down during the day, no fires at night. Smokes easier to see at night.

Always trust my gut.


l'm half horse, half gator,
and a touch of the earthquake.

l got the prettiest gal,
fastest horse...

...ugliest dog this side of hell.

l can out-jump, out-run, throw down...

...drag out and whip
any man in all Kentucky.

[Sarge47]

A. This is it, I have everything I could carry of value with me. I do not expect to go home ever again.

B. Sure he can head out and talk to them. Not me, they had guns and did not seem to care about what they are doing.

C. I radioed the guys they are at your camp with me.

D. It is mid August fall will be here in 6 weeks.

E. Can’t answer that one.

Hmmm, RiM, as a hunter & the cook I might point out that taking rabbits in the summer is not always good. Tule...Tule...Rabbit fever, plus they don't have any fat which needs to be added somehow. Still, it seems to be a peaceful offer. And yes, FVR is with us, we just didn't mention him because we don't want all of our chips on the table either.;)

[owl_girl]

To quote Will Smith's role in,Men in Black,"Now that's what I'm talking about."
vw has just addressed my two concerns in this one sentence.

1."My job was..."
The mission for this group has yet to be defined.The mission is what drives the military mind.If I'm going to risk my life, then I need to believe in the mission.Believe to the point that the mission is more important than my life, or yours.

2."and hold this position with 8 men."
Notice vw didn't say hold this position by himself.For this group to have any effectiveness in combat its going to have to train as a team.Train to the point that everyone starts thinking as one.

I thought the mission was for us to survive and for as many in the group to survive as possible. He said the SHTF, which I assumed meant we are trying to survive it not go on some political mission.
I suppose it would be impotent for me to tell everyone in this scenario that although I can injure someone to protect myself and others, I cant take a life, not fore anyone but especially not for my self, however though I would not kill for the group I would die for the group, if that’s not enough for you guys just say the word and I’m gone, I will leave the group and try to survive it on my own.

[FVR]

Sarge, ya just making me feel all cozy.

Owl Girl, no one is asking you to kill anyone, you don't need to leave. Just don't fall asleep on watch, and if you see something not right make us aware.

Every person is diff., the common goal must be the same, but we all have our jobs to do. A tap on the shoulder, a quiet warning can be more productive than just opening fire.

[FVR]

Now, it's time to hit the sack.

See that tree over thar, yeh that one that's 50' from camp. To the right, I have built a small fox hole. What, you think I cut all that wood for the fire?

It's ground level, when it's my watch, just come over and I will hear you. Don't worry, I will know it's you.

Good night.

Oh yeh, keep the coffee hot.

[owl_girl]

Sarge, ya just making me feel all cozy.

Owl Girl, no one is asking you to kill anyone, you don't need to leave. Just don't fall asleep on watch, and if you see something not right make us aware.

Every person is diff., the common goal must be the same, but we all have our jobs to do. A tap on the shoulder, a quiet warning can be more productive than just opening fire.
Ok. I thought it would be more polite to tell people now instead of waiting until we’re in the middle of a battle lol. That’s cool that your ok with it but it is a team and the team needs to be ok with it. in the mean time im totally cool with keeping watch at night. I have no problem staying awake all night, lol that’s why I chose the name owl girl :cool:

[Sarge47]

I thought the mission was for us to survive and for as many in the group to survive as possible. He said the SHTF, which I assumed meant we are trying to survive it not go on some political mission.
I suppose it would be impotent for me to tell everyone in this scenario that although I can injure someone to protect myself and others, I cant take a life, not fore anyone but especially not for my self, however though I would not kill for the group I would die for the group, if that’s not enough for you guys just say the word and I’m gone, I will leave the group and try to survive it on my own.

You don't have to kill any one, owl girl. Just let someone know if things look out of sorts. In a pinch, just look mean, scream, and wave that machete around, you'll scare the dickens out of most people! BTW, no one knows for sure what they'll do until the time comes.:cool:

[lumpy]

A newbies perspective:
Make fvr and wareagle69 squad leaders in charge of patrols, defensive perimeters,and combat training.
sarge47 will be in charge of supplies,procurement and the coffee pot.
vw will the XO,with the additional duties of operations and intelligence.
Drum roll please.After much agonizing thought,I nominate nell67 as CO.She's old enough not to be stupid and young enough not to suffer from indecision.Plus if she can manage all those pimply faced kids at the ff restuarant,then she can surely manage us.
If you need me I'll be helping fvr chop wood.Maybe he'll share some of that Crown Royal his pictured with in his profile.lol

[owl_girl]

A newbies perspective:
Make fvr and wareagle69 squad leaders in charge of patrols, defensive perimeters,and combat training.
sarge47 will be in charge of supplies,procurement and the coffee pot.
vw will the XO,with the additional duties of operations and intelligence.
Drum roll please.After much agonizing thought,I nominate nell67 as CO.She's old enough not to be stupid and young enough not to suffer from indecision.Plus if she can manage all those pimply faced kids at the ff restuarant,then she can surely manage us.
If you need me I'll be helping fvr chop wood.Maybe he'll share some of that Crown Royal his pictured with in his profile.lol
Now there’s those two words again, the ones that scared m in the first place (combat and train) you want combat training? If someone puts me in combat training I assume they intend for me to kill? And if I don’t would you still accept me in the group lumpy? Or would I be in the way? I need to know.

You sound like your building an army and I’m getting nervous.

[owl_girl]

I suppose I should be more specific. I can’t take a human life. I’m not opposed to going hunting or fishing, though I don’t think I’d be that good at it. I’d love to try spear fishing though. Anyway my point is I was only referring to humans and I’m not a vegetarian.

[owl_girl]

Volwest makes sense so fare. I’m cool with volwest being leader so long as he wants to. Actually I’m a little surprised you wanted to VW. I’d think we’d all annoy you to much lol. Also its easier to hide yourself then to hide a group. And I suppose hiding a small group is easier then hiding a large one…is that why you wouldn’t want more people?

Keep role playing ryaninmichigan. Lets see where this goes

Is anyone out there going to play bad guy or an unfriendly at any point in the game / experiment. Just a thought. In reality we’d probably run into one of those. I’d like to see where that goes.

[nell67]

Now there’s those two words again, the ones that scared m in the first place (combat and train) you want combat training? If someone puts me in combat training I assume they intend for me to kill? And if I don’t would you still accept me in the group lumpy? Or would I be in the way? I need to know.

You sound like your building an army and I’m getting nervous.

owl_girl,combat and train should not scare you,it could save your life,it does not mean that you have to kill,just put up a good fight and while your at it make some noise,it wont get too far before someone from our group hears you and they will be there,even if that help comes through the scope of a gun from a distance.

If you dont survive, we dont survive.Would I kill someone to save you? Yes,or die trying.

[Sarge47]

owl_girl,combat and train should not scare you,it could save your life,it does not mean that you have to kill,just put up a good fight and while your at it make some noise,it wont get too far before someone from our group hears you and they will be there,even if that help comes through the scope of a gun from a distance.

If you dont survive, we dont survive.Would I kill someone to save you? Yes,or die trying.

Nell, I'm promoting you to Corporal at least! Hooah!:rolleyes:

[ryaninmichigan]

Where do I start? VW, I am making this up based on Sarge’s original thread. The one where I was already accepted into the group. The part about coming into your camp is only a method of inserting myself and brothers into said group.

Also who said anything about combat? Relax put your sabers down. The guys looting the gas station were more then likely locals. I don’t think they will want to head this way anyway. All the free stuff is towards the last own. 3 hours away by car.

The rabbits we just happened to see so we shot them. We are not living off rabbit by any means. It has only been 1 day.

I am interested in forming a community where we all have something to bring to the table. Nothing more.


Any way just finished Breakfast and we are getting ready to pull out to get to the lake. The sunrise was red this morning. I think we need to get going so we can stay out of the rain.

[trax]

Volwest, your first response was virtually impeccable. You can PM me if you want to tell me how you knew to put me on the left.

FVR, you were definitely always part of the group, a couple of pages ago I nominated you as a potential leader.

I can see RiM's point that he was trying to only keep things rolling based on the original posting, I'm cool with that, like I mentioned yesterday I was rattling on beyond where I had permission simply because there were few others here.

Owl_Girl, if we as a group are ever in a "combative" situation, there's a lot to be said for someone who can protect one's back if one is sniping. The ability to remain still, observe surroundings and warn if necessary. No one can watch all directions at all times no matter how good their training ergo, you're still helping group members. I'm sure anyone who has posted here so far who is capable of packing a rifle and squeezing the trigger will agree with me on that one.

Can't respond to everything I've read to date, cool to see everyone jumping in though.

[lumpy]

Thanks owl-girl and rim.I was getting a little carried away.This certainly isn't about combat.(btw-I've never done that.)Substitute survival training for combat training.After all we aren't out to harm anyone unnecessarily. We just want to be left alone to practice our survival skills until this TSHTF situation plays itself out and everything gets back to normal.I still think the training is necessary to convince other groups,who may be less prepared than ourselves,that they had better leave us alone.

[owl_girl]

Thanks owl-girl and rim.I was getting a little carried away.This certainly isn't about combat.(btw-I've never done that.)Substitute survival training for combat training.After all we aren't out to harm anyone unnecessarily. We just want to be left alone to practice our survival skills until this TSHTF situation plays itself out and everything gets back to normal.I still think the training is necessary to convince other groups,who may be less prepared than ourselves,that they had better leave us alone.
That’s reasonable enough

[trax]

That’s reasonable enough

It is indeed. I find the different twists that the possible scenario takes interesting, none of us know what might really be until it happens, and...the level of preparedness and "survival thinking" if I may, seems pretty good over all to me.

[nell67]

A newbies perspective:
Make fvr and wareagle69 squad leaders in charge of patrols, defensive perimeters,and combat training.
sarge47 will be in charge of supplies,procurement and the coffee pot.
vw will the XO,with the additional duties of operations and intelligence.
Drum roll please.After much agonizing thought,I nominate nell67 as CO.She's old enough not to be stupid and young enough not to suffer from indecision.Plus if she can manage all those pimply faced kids at the ff restuarant,then she can surely manage us.
If you need me I'll be helping fvr chop wood.Maybe he'll share some of that Crown Royal his pictured with in his profile.lol

LOL! lumpy,I feel my bones creaking already!Feel better knowing you are right up there along with me HAHAHA!

[trax]

So, if we stay with the scenario as RiM has laid it out, he and his are heading for a lake tomorrow, are we..the group, travelling with them? That's if I'm still following all this correctly....:confused:

[owl_girl]

So, if we stay with the scenario as RiM has laid it out, he and his are heading for a lake tomorrow, are we..the group, travelling with them? That's if I'm still following all this correctly....:confused:
Doesn’t sound like it from what volwest said.

[owl_girl]

So what are your plans volwest?

[trax]

RiM described the "unfriendlies" as "mildly armed" I don't know them but if anyone thinks I'm only mildly armed when I have a hunting rifle is making a mistake that is potentially fatal.

owl_girl said our mission is to survive. I agree absolutely, whatever that takes.

If I've been hunting out there for two days, I already know the location of the lake that RiM is heading for, Marscroft hasn't weighed in lately but I'm sure he would too. Scouting is only part of hunting. Animals go to water. In case we as a group decide to not join RiM and group, but head for the lake at a future date.

Sentry/Lrrp duties....blend in perfectly with the same skill set as one uses hunting. My preference would be sentry duties from say...11 pm to 5 am, can hunt before and after and catch some sleep midday.

And Sarge...yeah that coffee's improving, keep up the good work :D

[wareagle69]

first off to owl girl, even in combat situations we have support units ppl who can feed us, which you have already shown me an aptitude for wild edibles and also as a healer so rest easy youngster that we will support you and protect you.

rim, for some reason you always seem to ruffle my feathers don't know why yet, but contrary to your post you would not be able to observe our base camp w/o being detected yourself, i am not saying this out of ego i am saying this out of fact, as it was my job for six years.

as for fvr you are always welcome at my fire, i will need to rely on your wisdom at council.

[FVR]

Here is the story.

RiM is sitting outside our camp for 30 plus minutes deciding if he wants to come in.

He sees Sarge, Owl Girl, Nell, does not see Trax or any hunters. He sees me back off cutting wood.

He does not see WE who while out on patrol, heard vehicles. He rendezvous with Lumpy (two Rangers). Lumpy is working his way back from whence RiM came. WE has his cross hairs on RiM.

RiM makes his move. He is no dummy, he holsters his pistol, slings his rifle. But, the pistol thong is not on, and he carries his rifle muzzle down, on back, easy to pull around and fire. WE picks this up.

WE has been radioing VW. VW is aware that RiM us coming in. He shouts, Hello the camp. As any woodsman knows, if you don't, you get shot. Even in the 21'st century.

First person to meet RiM is Sarge, with a pot of coffee and two cups. He gives RiM a hot cup of coffee, thus tieing up his one hand. VW is pissed, WE still has the crosshairs on RiM, but needs to re position for any other visitors. The woodcutter has dis., Rim has noticed this. WE can not get the woodcutter on the radio, WE is really mad, VW is getting their.

WE calls Lumpy, Lumpy throws his scope on the woodcutter, he's gone, well, he has a rifle pointed at RiM. He is located behind the woodpile. Lumpy radio's WE, WE radio's VW. VW's back is covered. WE knowing this fades off and re positions.

VW comes out and he and RiM speak. RiM has noticed that there are a few deer hanging, but no hunters. The woodcutter is gone. He asks VW, and is informed that the woodcutter has him in his crosshairs.

They talk.

What do they talk about? I don't know as my radio is dead.

RiM gets up and leaves. When he passes the perimeter, the woodcutter backs off and re positions on the other side of camp about 60 yards out. Why, because RiM knows the other position.

WE picks up RiM when he works his way back to the atv.

Where is Lumpy?


VW calls Sarge and the woodcutter to his shelter where he advises both of them of his concerns. WHY THE HELL WERE THEY ABLE TO SEE OUR FIRE!

Sarge and the woodcutter leave. Sarge spreads out the coals more, the woodcutter makes damn sure all the bark is off the wood and that it is dry, no green.

[FVR]

Later that night, I work my way over to the wood pile. WE sneaks out and says "what's wrong with your radio" I reply it's dead.

Oh.

However, we followed pre set proceedures for visitors coming into camp.

WE takes a shot of Royal and dissapears. Again.

WTF is Lumpy?

[FVR]

What is happening here is just what would happen for real.

VW and RiM's pers. conflicts.

The fear of being over powered.

The fear of having to do something that you don't think you can do.

Questioning authority.


When RiM leaves, he knows: There is a woodcutter with a gun. Must be a hunter as they have deer. There are a few woman. Sarge makes good coffee.

What he does not know, WTF is WE and Lumpy and if they even exist.

[FVR]

What, you mean writing this book.

[wareagle69]

six yrs army ranger
trained as a sniper/lrrp and as a medic.
rode bulls for yrs(not a valuable skill but i got balls)
professional record as a cage fighter 6-1-0
wild edibles are my passion.

weapons
got a shotgun a rifle and a four wheel drive cause a country boy can survive
hey that's catchy someone should write a song.
9mm
sks
ak47
30-06
300 weatherby magnum
.45
all in storage where my new government can't see it but still legal in my old country.
whitetail II compound bow.
several good hunting knives

well versed in muay Thai, brazilian ju jitsu and knife fighting.

and a wife who can handle her own.(plus she's easy on the eyes which keeps me in a good mood and don't have to worry about snuggling w/ trax) oh yeah i also have norm.

[wareagle69]

hey fvr did i miss something you said two rangers in the woods?

[FVR]

Isn't Lumpy a Ranger?

[wareagle69]

was that in a post somewhere,also question for the dungeon master here but what time of year is it here.

[FVR]

My bust, he's Airborne.


High-Speed, Low-Drag

[wareagle69]

saw that at least he made it thru my jump school at benning so he has chewed that same red dirt as you and i.

[owl_girl]

We do have to talk about this a little bit.

"i can't take a human life" sounds strange because from a logical point of view...saying i can't means that one tried. If it is not the case, "i can't" does not fit the sensation you are referring to. We cannot here unroll the red carpet of humanistic views, and even though it is mentioned here and there we cannot talk about religious beliefs either. So what are we left with ?

My personal views on this are of little interest to your "getting nervous".
So let's look at it pragmatically. If someone wraps their hands around your neck, and starts squeezing, what do you think is going to happen ?
You will not be thinking about the pros and cons of killing someone, your rationalization, ideas about life or moral standards will be far from your realm of responses available to you at this time.

You understand that we are here entertaining dramatic scenarios, where we as a group would be in a situation that does not allow for doubts.
I do not want to burst your bubble here...but you have already taken human life by getting to that ovule first...millions of possible others were denied life for your survival journey started when you swam up that egg. I know it sounds corny and somewhat far fetched...but think about it.
I am not even going to talk about our role in the death of many more through our political, economical, moral, religious, and who knows what ways. Directly or indirectly, killing is what keeps us alive.

You believe human life is above all other creature...i don't.

Would you be in the way ?
That is a question for you to answer.

Combat training is silly...not everyone is a warrior. If you are not, good, at least you know your place, but killing has nothing to do with being a warrior or trained for it. You can tomorrow get in your car, and kill a family of 4 while going to pick up ice cream. I know, it sucks to realize that killing is around the corner everyday. But all of this negates this "i can't take a human life" statement.

We can talk more about that if you want...
Ok fine I’ll say I won’t purposefully take a humane life if that makes more sense. If someone were strangling me I wouldn’t try to kill him, I’d try to get away and if he died it would be an accident and not a conscious choice. If I were thinking clearly I would not make the discussion to kill. If someone’s pointing a gun at someone I can step between them and take the bullet myself or try to distract them in some way or use pepper spry something like that but I’m not going to try to kill them. I’m ok with talking about it if you have anything else you want to say or questions you want to ask.

[Fog_Harbor]

I expect Mad Max to roll by this forum any minute now....

[owl_girl]

My plans ?

You mean our plans...i thought i was pretty clear on my position.
But i am listening.
I wasn’t exactly referring to rather or not we should go with them. I was wondering more about what do we do next.
But I think some people are still wondering if we should go or not.
I don’t know what all the advantages and disadvantages about going to the lake are and obviously its impossible to know all that could happen. Maybe we should talk about why we think we should or shouldn’t go.

[owl_girl]

first off to owl girl, even in combat situations we have support units ppl who can feed us, which you have already shown me an aptitude for wild edibles and also as a healer so rest easy youngster that we will support you and protect you.

rim, for some reason you always seem to ruffle my feathers don't know why yet, but contrary to your post you would not be able to observe our base camp w/o being detected yourself, i am not saying this out of ego i am saying this out of fact, as it was my job for six years.

as for fvr you are always welcome at my fire, i will need to rely on your wisdom at council.
Thanks wareagle

[owl_girl]

I cant keep up with all these posts lol

[ryaninmichigan]

Here is the story.

RiM is sitting outside our camp for 30 plus minutes deciding if he wants to come in.

He sees Sarge, Owl Girl, Nell, does not see Trax or any hunters. He sees me back off cutting wood.

He does not see WE who while out on patrol, heard vehicles. He rendezvous with Lumpy (two Rangers). Lumpy is working his way back from whence RiM came. WE has his cross hairs on RiM.

RiM makes his move. He is no dummy, he holsters his pistol, slings his rifle. But, the pistol thong is not on, and he carries his rifle muzzle down, on back, easy to pull around and fire. WE picks this up.

WE has been radioing VW. VW is aware that RiM us coming in. He shouts, Hello the camp. As any woodsman knows, if you don't, you get shot. Even in the 21'st century.

First person to meet RiM is Sarge, with a pot of coffee and two cups. He gives RiM a hot cup of coffee, thus tieing up his one hand. VW is pissed, WE still has the crosshairs on RiM, but needs to re position for any other visitors. The woodcutter has dis., Rim has noticed this. WE can not get the woodcutter on the radio, WE is really mad, VW is getting their.

WE calls Lumpy, Lumpy throws his scope on the woodcutter, he's gone, well, he has a rifle pointed at RiM. He is located behind the woodpile. Lumpy radio's WE, WE radio's VW. VW's back is covered. WE knowing this fades off and re positions.

VW comes out and he and RiM speak. RiM has noticed that there are a few deer hanging, but no hunters. The woodcutter is gone. He asks VW, and is informed that the woodcutter has him in his crosshairs.

They talk.

What do they talk about? I don't know as my radio is dead.

RiM gets up and leaves. When he passes the perimeter, the woodcutter backs off and re positions on the other side of camp about 60 yards out. Why, because RiM knows the other position.

WE picks up RiM when he works his way back to the atv.

Where is Lumpy?


VW calls Sarge and the woodcutter to his shelter where he advises both of them of his concerns. WHY THE HELL WERE THEY ABLE TO SEE OUR FIRE!

Sarge and the woodcutter leave. Sarge spreads out the coals more, the woodcutter makes damn sure all the bark is off the wood and that it is dry, no green.


There are many assumptions that sets me up to be removed form the group. (Never said I had a rifle, the radio would have been covered. I would not unholster the side arm unless something was going to die soon.)

ANYWAY


Hello to the camp is universal yes I would have yelled that. Good way to not get shot.

I guess I stepped on some egos by saying I observed your camp. I guess you guys were the best and never lost any exercises. I am not that big a man. I have, I am not the best but I am pretty well train in recon. Anyway. I don’t think I can offer anything else to this thread. At the start I was in the group, now it appears I am not. WE I am not sure why you do not like me.

This has not gone the way I thought it would I am sorry I posted this scenario. Oh ya two of us caught more then enough today. The other two have built a nice temp shelter and we have selected a sight for our permanent residence.

[Sarge47]

VW, I was waiting for somebody to metion taking an inventory. Also we need Recon. How many other people know about this lake? Are they already there? Do they have "fields of fire" laid out? Are they ready to shoot 1st and ask questions later?

Trax, you also mentioned a bigee, that wild animals will go to the lake to drink. Also a great water supply that nobody has mentioned yet. Not to mention fish. This is late August so Nell won't be planting any veggies for a while. It's "hunting cattail" & Burdock" for the cook, Owl-girl, and Nell. The upside is that the lake will give us the advantage of having one direction blocked in case of anybody wanting to rid us of our gear, goodies, and lives.

FVR, You missed one thing about the cook, he's always rubing his back because of the pain he gets at times from the Kidney stones he suffers from. Coincidently enough there is also a pistol holstered "cop-style" just an inch or two from his hand.

WiN, don't leave! Look how many posts your "scenario" has spawned. You even made Owl-girl's head swim and I don't think anybody else here has done that.:D Don't give up, you did this great, look at all the discussion.:eek:

One final question, don't we want "high ground"?:confused:

[owl_girl]

Yes inventory… I was wondering about that. I was going to ask if I mist something. Hey do we have any animals with us like guard dogs or something?

[ryaninmichigan]

VW, I was waiting for somebody to metion taking an inventory. Also we need Recon. How many other people know about this lake? Are they already there? Do they have "fields of fire" laid out? Are they ready to shoot 1st and ask questions later?

Trax, you also mentioned a bigee, that wild animals will go to the lake to drink. Also a great water supply that nobody has mentioned yet. Not to mention fish. This is late August so Nell won't be planting any veggies for a while. It's "hunting cattail" & Burdock" for the cook, Owl-girl, and Nell. The upside is that the lake will give us the advantage of having one direction blocked in case of anybody wanting to rid us of our gear, goodies, and lives.

FVR, You missed one thing about the cook, he's always rubing his back because of the pain he gets at times from the Kidney stones he suffers from. Coincidently enough there is also a pistol holstered "cop-style" just an inch or two from his hand.

WiN, don't leave! Look how many posts your "scenario" has spawned. You even made Owl-girl's head swim and I don't think anybody else here has done that.:D Don't give up, you did this great, look at all the discussion.:eek:

One final question, don't we want "high ground"?:confused:


Ok I will stick around. Our gear which I will detail tomorrow. (Much to do in the a.m.) Anyway it is well concealed and our permanent spot on high ground is taking shape nicely.

We all have some military background but that is not our primary concern. We have plans and will kill when needed. We would rather not but is an option that is at the top of the list. We do not own the lake but we do own our stuff and we are taking possession of the walking distance around our camp. Like I said we are here to survive and be as happy as possible. But do not confuse our kindness with weakness. I would think based on some posts most here will understand that statement.

Not sure how many know about this place. There is not a home within walking distance.

Also my brother in-law’s lab, Max, is not an attack dog but nothing gets past him. So he is our alarm… So form your group VW I see 3 that are starting to think about where I am headed…. Not trying to start a fight with you BTW,

[FVR]

RiM,

Just assumptions hoss. The rifle and sidearm is what I would have and the actions I typed would have been the actions I would have taken.

Of course your sidearm would be holstered, would it be snapped in?

I don't think you stepped on any ego's at all. But realize that you would not be the only one observing. This group has a few mil. men and that brings a whole new dynamic to the group.

Actually, it may bring problems in the future. Mil. and civilians act diff. in many situations. Call it training or exp.


So, what did you and VW talk of? He's still pissed about the fire and my radio, although, I had his six all the time.

I very much liked the scenario because it is very realistic.

[owl_girl]

Maybe he has something in his inventory that we don’t and we something that he don’t. How much would putting our inventories together improve our chances for survival?

Is your dog noisy RiM?

[ryaninmichigan]

Maybe he has something in his inventory that we don’t and we something that he don’t. How much would putting our inventories together improve our chances for survival?

Is your dog noisy RiM?

our dog will bark at anything that moves or smells

[owl_girl]

our dog will bark at anything that moves or smells
That could be a problem if your trying to keep a low profile.

[Sarge47]

I appreciate where your coming from on not wanting to kill. Killing is an extreme measure and will probably only happen in an extreme situation. Here, for you, is "Sarge's Self-defense Kit in a Can!" Your main worry would be if someone grabbed you. If they shoot or stab you you're worm food and there's nothing you can do about it. When people grab people it's usually all "above the waist", around the shoulders, and maybe keeping your feet placed so you can't move them. Use your head, literally. The nose is a tender area and forget the bogus Hollywood rap that you can kill a man by driving the nose bone up into the skull. The skull is a lot thicker than the bones of the nose. Crushing them causes a lot of blood to flow and a lot of pain, which can give an attacker something else to think about. Your best weapons beside your head, if you can use them is your feet and knees. Forget the groin area on a male attacker; kiddo, we've been instinctively protecting that area since we were babies. It's not a primary target, but secondary or even further back. The shin, however, is one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body. You ever bang one into something? Hurts like the dickens, doesn't it. The instep is a great target as well. All those little bones crush easily under the full weight behind a boot heel. The knee cap area is also a weak point, as is behind the knee to drop someone. The throat if exposed is a perfect spot to punch or chop if you free your hands. The Kidney area will stop someone if you can hit it and here's the little known trick that Hollywood always seems to miss. If you can free up your hands above the persons head, cup your hands and hit the ears directly over the ear canal. It's called "boxing the ears" and can rupture the eardrum rather quickly. One last word, only use these tactics in times of real danger! Peace.;)

[ATough]

what are you guys doing????

[owl_girl]

I appreciate where your coming from on not wanting to kill. Killing is an extreme measure and will probably only happen in an extreme situation. Here, for you, is "Sarge's Self-defense Kit in a Can!" Your main worry would be if someone grabbed you. If they shoot or stab you you're worm food and there's nothing you can do about it. When people grab people it's usually all "above the waist", around the shoulders, and maybe keeping your feet placed so you can't move them. Use your head, literally. The nose is a tender area and forget the bogus Hollywood rap that you can kill a man by driving the nose bone up into the skull. The skull is a lot thicker than the bones of the nose. Crushing them causes a lot of blood to flow and a lot of pain, which can give an attacker something else to think about. Your best weapons beside your head, if you can use them is your feet and knees. Forget the groin area on a male attacker; kiddo, we've been instinctively protecting that area since we were babies. It's not a primary target, but secondary or even further back. The shin, however, is one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body. You ever bang one into something? Hurts like the dickens, doesn't it. The instep is a great target as well. All those little bones crush easily under the full weight behind a boot heel. The knee cap area is also a weak point, as is behind the knee to drop someone. The throat if exposed is a perfect spot to punch or chop if you free your hands. The Kidney area will stop someone if you can hit it and here's the little known trick that Hollywood always seems to miss. If you can free up your hands above the persons head, cup your hands and hit the ears directly over the ear canal. It's called "boxing the ears" and can rupture the eardrum rather quickly. One last word, only use these tactics in times of real danger! Peace.;)
Thanks Sarge. Those are good tips, I’ll remember that. :D
Ho and boxing the ears I learned when I was 8. I also know if you hit someone in the back of the head where the neck and head connect it will knock them out, I learned that from my uncle, also my brother did that to our cousin when they were playing/wrestling. Also if you hit someone in the stomach aim right under and between the rib cage then push up on impact. I have a lot of guys in my family and they give me a lot of tips.

I never had to use any of those but there were times I thought it might come to that. I would only use them if I had no choice. The last two I listed I'd be careful because if I hit to hared or do it wrong it can be fatal.

Its always nice to get more tips.

[ATough]

what are you guys doing? or talking about? I'm so confused.:confused:

[owl_girl]

what are you guys doing? or talking about? I'm so confused.:confused:
Role-playing

[ATough]

thats what I thought. rpg huh? cool.

[Sarge47]

Thanks Sarge. Those are good tips, I’ll remember that. :D
Ho and boxing the ears I learned when I was 8. I also know if you hit someone in the back of the head where the neck and head connect it will knock them out, I learned that from my uncle, also my brother did that to our cousin when they were playing/wrestling. Also if you hit someone in the stomach aim right under and between the rib cage then push up on impact. I have a lot of guys in my family and they give me a lot of tips.

I never had to use any of those but there were times I thought it might come to that. I would only use them if I had no choice. The last two I listed I'd be careful because if I hit to hared or do it wrong it can be fatal.

Its always nice to get more tips.

It's also nice to have an uncle (& others) to teach you stuff like that. I studied Karate for awhile, but I found I didn't care for all the drills, work-outs, Katas, & what have you. Surprise is still a good weapon, If people don't expect much from you, when you do respond it gives you more of an edge. I always like the "code" that the instructors had, though. Just enough to get the job done, & no more. Jiu Jitsu is, in my opinion, better than Karate because you don't have to be an Arnold Swartzenegger to use it effectivly. You wind up using the other person's strength against them. However, karate was useful in a few areas. For example I learned that if I bring my elbow straight back into the hollow of a person's chest I can do a lot of damage. I also liked the ""cross-body" blocks as well. After all these years I never had to use any of this, however, and that's a good thing, right?:D

[owl_girl]

It's also nice to have an uncle (& others) to teach you stuff like that. I studied Karate for awhile, but I found I didn't care for all the drills, work-outs, Katas, & what have you. Surprise is still a good weapon, If people don't expect much from you, when you do respond it gives you more of an edge. I always like the "code" that the instructors had, though. Just enough to get the job done, & no more. Jiu Jitsu is, in my opinion, better than Karate because you don't have to be an Arnold Swartzenegger to use it effectivly. You wind up using the other person's strength against them. However, karate was useful in a few areas. For example I learned that if I bring my elbow straight back into the hollow of a person's chest I can do a lot of damage. I also liked the ""cross-body" blocks as well. After all these years I never had to use any of this, however, and that's a good thing, right?:D
Yes that is a good thing you never had to use those lol.
I’m kind of interested in pressure points / nerve points just because I like the idea of incapacitating the attacker without causing them any real or permanent damage.

[Sarge47]

Yes that is a good thing you never had to use those lol.
I’m kind of interested in pressure points / nerve points just because I like the idea of incapacitating the attacker without causing them any real or permanent damage.

Jiu Jitsu teaches pressure points, throws, holds, and a little kicking and hitting. Google it and you should find some books on the topic. I did use it a little when I was kid, but never had to really mess anybody up. Lock up there wrist, push on a pressure point, and if you're a skinny kid doing it, well there's that "surprise" factor I spoke about earlier. They were quick to back off.:D

[owl_girl]

Jiu Jitsu teaches pressure points, throws, holds, and a little kicking and hitting. Google it and you should find some books on the topic. I did use it a little when I was kid, but never had to really mess anybody up. Lock up there wrist, push on a pressure point, and if you're a skinny kid doing it, well there's that "surprise" factor I spoke about earlier. They were quick to back off.:D
I have a friend like that. I don’t know exactly where she stands on the killing part, but she knows some effective pressure points lol, and even though she’s little she has fought with the big boys especially if they were hurting a little kid or animal. She’s brave or stubborn either way she won’t back down. You would never expect her to do some of the thing she dos. She’s like that eagle taking down a deer, she’s the closest thing I’ve ever seen to a warrior. Yep she’s been in a few survival situations lol

[wareagle69]

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.

[Sarge47]

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.

Where's Norm? Where's the knife?:D

[ryaninmichigan]

just returning from night patrol, i notice that SM has wandered into our camp perfect night for patroling, was nice and cool , just ont the down side of a full moonand clear skies anyhow heres my sitrep

i was coming back in from the west side of camp, lake is to the north there is a camp on the other side of the lake two large rv's young families and children two noisy dogs seem very panicked large white man's fire.interesting enough i came across a small lean to about 4 klicks out to dead bodies looks like they were exposed to the elements hypothermia and some bad mushrooms nearby they only had the clothes on their backs and this thousand dollar knife(sorry couldn't help myself) any how is the coffe warm yet sarge sure could use a biscuit also time for some r/r see ya in a few.


The lake I am on is 15 miles out. Are you talking about my lake with the RVs? It is not accessible from any road so I am surprised you thought you seen RVs. Maybe you are the one with the Shrooms. Your night patrol took you 15 miles out? Kind of a long way don’t you think? Maybe if you were not hiking 15 miles you might have seen SM coming in.

[trax]

No formal military training, some training in kung fu and boxing. Approximately 40 years on and off of hunting, scouting, tracking and trapping experience. I am capable of being very stealthy in wooded and grassland areas. I'll be bringing two scoped hunting rifles, a .243 and a 30.06, both bolt action repeaters w/ 4shot magazines. I can make a green apple sitting against green tree bark into apple sauce @ 100 yards without the scope, I can do more damage than that at greater distances with.

I'll have one rifle with me at all times, one in camp with whoever's on the job while I'm out or sleeping knowing where the second rifle is if they need it. I will also be carrying a small hatchet and a 5" skinning knife which I keep razor sharp.

I can also adapt my sleep cycles to meet the necessity of the job, but yes, if we have enough people the guard duty should be broken up into smaller shifts. It makes for more alert guards. People should also learn to patrol randomly, rather than on a set patrol, if they don't know that already. It makes it more difficult for anyone who might be an unfriendly to figure out how to gain access to our camp.(Indian trick!) I agree with volwest that all life matters, not just human, and when it comes to taking any life...it is something I take very seriously, but if it's the job that needs to be done, I will not hesitate. I'm not looking for trouble with anyone (my comment about pre-emptive strikes still stands, if it's what you have to do....do it)

If I'm scouting an area for game, I'm going to have a good idea of all the water sources in the area, creeks lead to lakes, tree lines drop off on the horizon at lakes,etc. Even if I haven't made it to the lake yet, I know where it is. Any information I pick up while hunting/scouting is reported to VW, WE, FVR et al upon my return. If Sarge's coffee keeps me awake, I'll give FVR a hand with the wood before I knock off

[trax]

Kind of got away from the inventory thing:

1 small tent w/tarp-style tent fly, 4 ppl could squeeze into
a big, down sleeping bag
coffee pot and cup and melamine dishes for two ppl (kit came that way)
1 lb each, coffee and sugar
2 boxes of 500 wooden matches
400 rounds for each rifle
bino's
one extra change clothes, outdoor gear, fleece jacket, not camouflage
waterproof boots
aforementioned firearms, knife, hatchet
knife sharpener
no food...that's it, left in a hurry

LMAO at VW's sleeping pills, "Lullabye and goodnight and where are your friends hiding?...."

[owl_girl]

Activated charcoal, tea tree oil, other oil, bandages, salt, 2 blankets (alpaca wool), sleeping bag, a towel, cup, canteen, Katadyn Pocket Filter, water sanitizer tablets, small pot, cast-iron pan, magnesium flint, true flint & steel, lighter, magnifying glass, flashlight, batteries, pepper spray, fixed blade knife, folding knife, knife sharpener, finger nail clipper, multi tool with spoon & fork, whistle, pen & paper, a couple books on natural resources, hand sanitizer, soap, toilet paper, and some personal hygiene produces

Clothing: socks, hat, a really good jacket, sweater, 3 shirts, 4 sets of pants, snow pants, winter boots, gloves, hiking boots

It seems the animal thing is of interest and volwest did ask so…I value all life and I have a soft spot for animals, I would never hurt an animal for no reason, but if I had to choose between an animal and a human I’d choose the human over the animal, but I wouldn’t choose a human life over a human life, and I know you probably find me hypocritical but I’m honest.

[ryaninmichigan]

-sleeping pills (50...RIM should start feeling it by now with Sarge's coffee...lol)


I assume this was a joke.

[trax]

I assume this was a joke.
but are you getting drowzy, bro? :D

[trax]

I'll drop 'em, gut 'em and skin 'em, but I would surely appreciate a hand packing the meat back to the camp. Anyone???

[ryaninmichigan]

but are you getting drowzy, bro? :D

I don't drink coffee:D

[owl_girl]

I'll drop 'em, gut 'em and skin 'em, but I would surely appreciate a hand packing the meat back to the camp. Anyone???
Sure I’ll help

[trax]

Sure I’ll help Thanks owl_girl!

[trax]

I could use a clearer picture of how many people we're talking about in our group. Can we do some kind of roll call here? It matters in relation to food provision, so it matters first and foremost to the hunters and gatherers. We can also look at best disbursement practices once all of the edibles have been inventoried.

Basically, a couple of deer are a good start, but I need to drop a moose. If RiM et al are moving on, will we look at them as potential trading partners down the road? They seemed honorable and friendly in my humble opinion.

[trax]

Does that mean you're not going to help me and owl_girl pack meat back to camp? :rolleyes:

[trax]

It is a fact brought on by neurobiologists that there is no specific spot in the brain for "good" or "bad", for those notions or values depend on cultures and time...............

.........

Long enough Sarge ?
Say yes! For the love of God, DO NOT ask for more details!! LOL!:D :D

[owl_girl]

volwest was there a specific point you were coming to? If there was could you sum it up in a way people with shorter attention spans can retain lol?

[trax]

awww....I thought that long post kinda meant "birds of a feather flock together" then I thought..mmm....goose..mmm

I'm kidding, you know that right?

[trax]

Of course...Hey want some coffee ?
(hehehe)

sighting down rifle....eyes getting heavy, should pull trigger on deer...(yawn)....rifle seems...heavy....eyes drooping....should shoot deer...why does deer look like my right boot? (yawn)...shoot, then maybe a short nap....

[owl_girl]

Ok so the motivations of your post is to expose the motivations of the group lol :D ok I think I got it... I hope

Its not that I’m not trying to pay attention, it’s just hard to retain all that some times.

[wareagle69]

rim
i quickly tire of you 1st we are a team if i am out on patrol other members would have picked up on SM coming in.
2nd if you cannot read my post properly right in front of you how can i trust your judgment or your word.
3rd if you want to up and qiut because you cannot read my posts properly what does that say about you and your need for acceptance that everyone sees you as a big man just because one person does not like me is of no concern to me, my squad members may have not liked me because i was hard on them yet my squad came home alive....they respected me.that it my mind is more important than friendship.

[trax]

rim
i quickley tire of you

Have you been having coffee with volwest? Sorry man, just had to, it was out there waiting to be asked :D

[Sarge47]

It is a fact brought on by neurobiologists that there is no specific spot in the brain for "good" or "bad", for those notions or values depend on cultures and time.

The plasticity of the mind is so that what is good for us can be bad for someone else, and what is bad for us in a certain situation is no longer bad in an other. Everything being based on survival and the memories of what is unpleasant.

The mind does not remember much or not at all of what is good, or what brings on pleasure.
But it knows about reward, and some neurons are constantly on duty to make sure it happens.

In fact we remember very well what a punishment is. Punishment is discomfort. When a being, a rat or a man in training accomplishes an action, which results in pain, they will try to learn a different action to avoid this pain, and even more if there is a reward at the end. Circus animals are educated this way...the hard way, and then the reward way.

What beings look for at all time is the end of the tension(s) which creates pain, and "growing up", or learning, is the discovery of ways which bring us to this release and which end a certain suffering. This learning process is even more reinforced by rewards, meaning the presence of a certain habit, which will set in place the rewarded behavior.

We only look for a tension when we know the possibility to end the said tension. The orgasm is cloned on this model.

In other words, we do not like being tense, unless we know the way to relax.

If we put in place a little experiment...and we twist our arm in a new position which creates after a while a tension, a certain pain or discomfort...it will not be long before we start looking for the way to lower the level of energy which we cannot channel. If the unpleasant position is maintained because we cannot change it, it will become a new position and will be forgotten.
The body can sometimes get use to very unpleasant positions and make do with it...those positions become "normal"...(giraffe women)

It is the same for everything, ideas and thoughts. To accept an idea from someone is unpleasant for it creates a friction with our daily thoughts. We do not listen to music that make us tense, but rather a music which offers us the possibility to bring back our energy level closer to "zero". It is the same for all organisms, from Man to crystal...
The balance is obtained when the level of energy is endlessly brought back to the lowest level.

"...To the concept of negation, corresponds very well the fact that in psychoanalyses, we do not find "no" coming from the unconscious, and that the re-cognition of this unconscious by the self is always expressed by a negative form. The proof is the reaction from the patient when he says: I did not think that...I never thought of that."
Freud

We can therefore understand that everything we do, say or think is in most cases a negation of what bothers us, a refusal of what hurts us, a release in rapport with what pains us.
Where are our affirmations in this endless negation? Where is our power of decision in this automatic search of what makes us suffer, in the automatic search of what brings us a certain reward, or in general, what comforts us and binds us to the image we have of ourselves ?

This affirmation of ourselves, this auto-contemplation, as solid as a rock and as unshakable as DNA is not a voluntary decision, it is not an affirmation of a choice or of a preference...this affirmation is the result of the negation of everything else.

I decide to go see a movie. Is it a free willed based decision? Or is it the negation of many other possibilities, which we do not accept, or even don't think about, that are hidden and that does not appear in our attention but can appear in therapy or in a profound reflection on the essential reasons for our behavior...
All of our ambitions, all of our hopes, all of our intentions are free willed? Or are they what remains in our imagination or in our habits, or simply the obligation to respect the direction that our society invites us to endorse in order to be socially accepted?

Our actions are the negation of what we cannot do, our thoughts are the negation of what we cannot think, our words are the negation of what we must silence. We perceive what we have learned to perceive, we feel what we must feel by negation of what we must not or cannot feel to be human, to be part of humanity.
We are what we did not allow ourselves to be, by obligation, by ignorance, or by intellectual dependence, by lack of freedom of comprehension.

Our mind builds itself, and therefore builds our relationship to the world on, and by negation.
We are conditioned by the negation of everything that is not us.

The repressed is our true nature; we are the negation of our repression, the denial of our true nature.
But we believe we are a gigantic will, an affirmation, a coherent intention...when we are nothing else but "no".

So?

" To be or not to be" that is the question indeed.
And an answer can arise...if we are negation, if we cannot affirm our being but by the refusal of what we are not...Being is first "not being", to no longer BE.
Being is not ex-isting.
Being is in-sisting.

In fact, if we want to be conscious we must diminish the energy that we dispense towards life, or that life takes from our bank without asking. We have to admit to ourselves that we have never been free to decide anything, and that we have always carried a decision or a will which was "the negation of", more than an " acceptation affirming that". We have never been free because our life, through its sweet tooth for energy has prevented us from being more conscious, or in rapport with sensation, with pure perception.

Tensions nourish our consciousness, and the resolution of tensions makes us fall into the trap of rewards.

"I cannot take a human life" is a negation.
The sensation of guilt recalls the maintaining in the minds of individuals of a feeling of belonging to a group.
This guilt will arise when the individual feels that he no longer conforms to the laws of the group to which he wants to belong to, through the needs of defining himself and claim his part of happiness.

The feeling of guilt is an attachment to our minds by ways of adopting an idea, an opinion that we must defend.
The size of the group will be in direct relation to the size of guilt...more people, more guilt to deal with.

When we look at animals, we can observe that they all have traditions, they belong to groups, and they transmit those traditions and feelings of belonging to each others with this mechanism that binds them to follow the rules and laws put in place which are an other way to regulate fear within the group.

Laws and rules arise during the association of similar individuals to regulate power struggles and the distribution of tasks in order to ensure the survival of the group and each individual belonging to the said group. Laws regulate the tensions of the group as a whole but also reduce tensions within individuals.

When laws and rules appear within a group, the individual sees a promise of security, and therefore a better chance to reproduce himself. The representation of his own reproduction and the transmission of himself and of the informations that concerns him and the group to which he belongs to are enlarged to become the representation that the group has of itself.

The individual has no longer an individual based fear but a fear stemming from his own mind which will ironically increase by the simple fact of belonging to a group.
Beyond the sensation of security that units the group, the group itself will become an "individual" with fears of it's own and the need to regulate it's own tensions and reproduction of itself in order to find infinite "life" and therefore will try to assimilate other groups...etc.

Fear amplifies therefore, from cells to tissue, tissue to organs, organs to organisms, organisms to social groups, social groups to nations...

Long enough Sarge ?

Okay VW, here's a question to something I learned at the Jr. College I attended in Sociology 101: "What 4 things does a society have to have in order to survive? Note, "society", not an individual. Let's see if your the man I think you are.:rolleyes:

[FVR]

May need to do a night jaunt, stretch the legs a little.

I bring to the table;

8 years USMC (3 years 1st Recon Bn.)
Mnt., desert, jungle, cold weather warfare schools
lrrps, patrols
MOS is mechanic, jeeps, 2, 5, 10 ton, Hummer, and Dragon wagon.
No formal martial arts, yet, however USMC hand to hand combat trng.
Rebuild motorcyles, cars, blowers, air comp., and a variety of other things.

Equipment;
308, 350 rounds
357 da revolver, 150 assort. 357/38
50 cal. cut down, 3lbs powder, 300 p caps, and lead.
Poncho liner
Mil. and civ. wool blanket
SS and copper pot
4 canteens & cup
Kabar, two throwing bowies, one mil. style hawk.
extra pair bdu's & socks
possibles kit.
Bino's
min. 1st aid kit.
Mocs
About 8 boxes of those brkfst granola bars.
2 8 pc set wrenches, reg. and metric
2 philips, 3 flat blade screwdrivers
1 10 pc socket set
1 plier
1 cutter
1 lockjaw


in a pack basket.

If I grab the truck;

F-250 4x4, 3 tool boxes fully loaded, gen. air comp., 100 extra gal of gas.
One pole tent
One gal. green paint (it's a white truck)
and whatever else I can heave into the bed.

[FVR]

My two cents.

Lake sounds nice but I do not want to be on the side of it. Too much exposer.

I thought we were on high ground already.

I kind of like the place we are in now, if we need to move, let's get to it. Would not mind sneaking up to that lake and putting in a couple turtle traps. Snapper soup sounds good, fine dining if you ask me.

While back up behind camp, found a honey bee hive. Going to try to get some honey tomm., sure would be good in Sarge's coffee.

Hey, if we are staying here, we better build a latrine or something.

I hope those guys up at the lake don't go peeing and crapping where the waste finds itself into that lake.

WE, If you see RiM, let them know I fix motorcycles. Could trade off.

[Sarge47]

Okay wolves, I didn't hike in, I drove a bus. Got it off the lot. Yeah the lot was locked but I got keys, all the drivers do. Drove it home and loaded up all the grub, MRE's included, coffee, sugar, flour, even gallon jugs of water. (Really do have everything but the bus!) Took me two days to unbolt all those seats, but I got it done. I've got tents, sleeping bags, Yeah, extras never hurt. My guns, two .22s and a single barreled 12 ga. with some double ought, slugs, and small game loads. (Hey, I live in Freakin' Illinois!) My Ruger 10/22 is scoped and I have a couple of 30 round banana clips for the intense stuff, and lookin' forward to having VW, FVR, WE, or TRAX help me sight it in. Got the ..22 Ruger Mark II in it's holster, and in the middle of my back. Got every blade i own and all my military clothing, including 3 sets of Poly-Pro thermals, Gore-tex parka, fleece jackets, 4 prs. of combat boots, 1 pr. Jungle (G-T), 1 pr. G.T. Desert, @ Black leather, one of which is G.T. lined as well. 2 prs, of binos, Silva Ranger compass, Air-force signal mirror, enough 550 cord to do lots of lashing...and on & on. I barely make it into camp when I run out of fuel, but that's okay, this thing,ll make one bit*hin' shelter! Strangely enough, I only get a grudging nod from everybody, and some comments like "well, at least he left the kitchen sink at home." & "Do you believe it? There ain't a single bottle of booze anywhere in all that crap!" Sorry guys.:o Lately I've been spending my spare time trying to teach Owl-girl 'self-defense" but have gotten tired of gettin' my butt kicked! SM has wandered in with some younger wolves, Wild Goth (WG), and Survivorman (SMII) Sm has put them to work setting up booby-traps & big snares as well as digging pits with pugi stakes in the bottom. (Hmmm, note to self, get SM to have a nice long talk with VW as soon as possible!) I've saved every tin-can we've used for food. When I opened them I left the lids partially attached. The small stream nearby, (probably runs off into the lake) has about a million stones so I've dumped a few into each can and had SM help me string them across the trails on all the ways into our camp using 550 cord. Good chance anybody tries sneakin' up on us they'll give away their position! Well, gotta go and make more coffee, FVR, Trax, WE, & VW have been really hittin' it...I suspect FVR has dumped some Seagram's Crown Royal into it...

[FVR]

Got the honey, about a half gal., few bee stings no biggy.

WE, noticed a set of mountain lion tracks north of the camp, watch your back.

Found some hackberries out past the woodpile. I think there is enough for a pie, most are sweat, few tart ones.

Sneaking back into my fox hole for a few zzz's.

What watch am I on?

[ryaninmichigan]

rim
i quickly tire of you 1st we are a team if i am out on patrol other members would have picked up on SM coming in.
2nd if you cannot read my post properly right in front of you how can i trust your judgment or your word.
3rd if you want to up and qiut because you cannot read my posts properly what does that say about you and your need for acceptance that everyone sees you as a big man just because one person does not like me is of no concern to me, my squad members may have not liked me because i was hard on them yet my squad came home alive....they respected me.that it my mind is more important than friendship.

I will respond tomorrow, but I have no idea what you are talking about. you did not even awnser my question.........

[owl_girl]

Other wise, i am liking our spot too...and if this is it, a more permanent shelter has to be thought off before fall...with maybe a root cellar ?

I think a root cellar is a good idea. Also maybe we should be smoking some meat soon.

[Fog_Harbor]

Fight nice, children.