Group Survival 101.

[Sarge47]

I started a new thread dedicated to group survival as I feel that I might have gotten off the thread topic on the other one and this is probably going to be a lengthy thread. How many of you ever saw the "original" movie: "Flight of the Phoenix"? In the film a plane crashes in a large African desert; the pilot, played by James Stewart, starts out as the leader of a group of survivors. Two of them strike out on their own, but one comes back and one dies in the desert. The one that comes back is near death. The time is shortly after WWII and "anti-German" feelings still run high; however, a German airplane designer, played by Hardy Kruger" becomes the leader for awhile because only he knows how to re-design the plane to fly them out. Needless to say, he is an "unpopular" leader! After the plane is fixed and started up James Stewart regains leadership as he's the only one who can fly them out. One scene that stood out for me in the film was when they all had to work together, pulling the airplane into the proper position for take-off. They all were involved because it was the only way to save their lives. This is kind of what I'm talking about.:cool:

[Sarge47]

I think that you make a good point here VW; ergo are we looking at "Short Term" (ST) vs. (LT) survival situations. In ST situations our leader criteria probably wouldn't be as sophisticated as in LT. An example might be that everyone is lost but one member of the group. Since that person knows the way out it's "Lead on, McDuff!" & away we go! We might be stranded on an Island with no way off except for the person with the boat! This does not give the leader anything but the responsiblity to use their particular knowledge or equipment for the good of the group.

In any sort of LT situation the criteria would have to be more "in depth". I don't believe that any of us in the Wolf Pack would need to learn survival skills out in the field as it's pretty obvious that we all are up on that. Likewise on equipment as everyone has their knives, firestarters, etc.. It would require something completely different to move us "outside the box..or out of our comfort zone." Maybe a disaster that has one or more of us needing serious medical attention. Remember, if your not in danger, it isn't "survival".

I "do" believe that the problem that would arise in a group like this would be psycological; the mental move from one of "independence" to becoming a "team-member". We would have to bond and trust one another in all things until the problem is solved.

[owl_girl]

Volwest have you ever seen the movie dogvill? just wondering.

[trax]

How did we ever manage to form societies? Everyone seems so sure that any group in a survival situation is going to fall all over itself with the last two survivors fighting it out to the death for the last scrap of bacon rind or whatever....people bond, period. They form groups and the groups learn to adapt to the environment and either thrive or die out. some individuals depart the group, and either join another group, start another group or spend whatever's left of their days as loners. Same thing, thrive or die out, all part of a much larger process, but it happens all the time and has happened since the beginning of time.

[trax]

For making me yawn uncontrollably, nevertheless, yeah....ALL I'm saying is...people have managed to "bond" and go far beyond bonding for many thousands of years....that's all. You and so have I and so have several other people in different postings mentioned that the things we talk about are situationally dependent, so.....so is this. It was just one little piece I wanted to add.

[Sarge47]

Okay, anybody besides me notice what is going on here between Trax & Vol West? 1st we have two Alpha males in the pack snapping at each other on two seperate threads.:D 2nd, it is what is known in "polite society" as "a personality clash".:eek: The clash is not in their respective opinions, ideals, & concepts, but rather how they express them. Here on the forum it's no big deal. It actually is a learning experience. Not only are we who view these posts learning from all that they have to say, not only are we learning more about their background, experience, and education, they are getting to know one another.

If we were in a deadly situation, however, would they both stop their debate long enough to bond, become team-mates, and help keep the group/pack going? I believe that they would.;)

BTW, VW, While I have not been in a train wreck, I have had my school bus totaled out while I was driving it; while I have not been "under fire" I have been married twice...do either of these things count?:D

[owl_girl]

Owl girl...no i haven't, you want to talk about it ?

Well if I talk to much about it that might ruin it for you if you decide to see it. One thing I will say is the beginning is really boring, I almost turned it off because I don’t have that long of an attention span but don’t turn it off it gets better. Based on the beginning I did not expect that ending. I loved it though I was depressed the rest of the day lol. Mostly I was just wondering what you would think of that scenario.

[trax]

Volwest! You can't agree now, Sarge will be so disappointed in us!:D well, ok...

Sarge, I agree with Volwest

Owl_Girl...I'd like to learn more about that movie as well, because amazingly, I passed it by for something else just two nights ago at the movie rental place, but it looked interesting.

[owl_girl]

Owl_Girl...I'd like to learn more about that movie as well, because amazingly, I passed it by for something else just two nights ago at the movie rental place, but it looked interesting.
Id’ definitely recommend it. But it dos start out a little slow. If you see it tell me what you think.

[wareagle69]

i think that somehow we have been sold(brainwashed)into thinking that we need to fear what we do not know. i know that i protect what i have with ferocity, i wonder i i might miss out on a friend during a situation because i fear that he is going to try to take what is mine

eaver see the movie contact, i love that movie and forgive me for butchering this quote but it goes something about "why is it the contention of every politician that all aliens are hostile" to which he replies "why is it every egghead assumes that they are benign. where do i fall in as shtf scene i will probably(and unfortunatly) asumme that everyone is hostile

[Sarge47]

i think that somehow we have been sold(brainwashed)into thinking that we need to fear what we do not know. i know that i protect what i have with ferocity, i wonder i i might miss out on a friend during a situation because i fear that he is going to try to take what is mine

Could you explain this a bit more please, Wareagle?:confused:

[wareagle69]

sure sarge.

let me think on how to explain this differently.
it seems in the movies that i have watched and grown up with it is always one man against the world. look at most apoctalyptic movies, it seems that one or two ppl are hiding out and hordes of angry or recently raised from the dead mobs are after what you have. i think we are taught to miss trust anyone nowadays with all the deviants and pervs out there guilty until proven innocent any more and even when proven not guilty(never innocent) there is always doubt left in ppl minds. my dealings w/ ppl in life itself have left me this way. my whole life i wanted to be a soldier, which i became the best of the best they said "rangers lead the way" and i did, they taught me to kill and i did, then when my tour was up and i had to deal with the loss of 18 comrades, the miltary said well yor a civillian now best of luck, betrayed by what i beleived in, so when the shtf and some one comes down the street how will i react? the way i have been trained to do my whole life. fortunatley my wife is a good person and has learned about my life as an americian ( and she still loves me anyways) and has learned how to deal with my personality but i fear that, in a world of hypermachoism the samurai warrior no longer is allowed to exsist.

sorry to get so deep ,once istarted typing , weel you know

[spiritman]

A little bit of maths...
1+1+1+1+1 = 5 is bonding.
1+1+1+1+1 = 1 is unity.

You + me + Sarge + Trax + Wareagle + everyone here = Wolfpack

That's what sarge was doing when he wanted a name for the group, something we could all stand behind.

I am a wolf

[spiritman]

An example might be that everyone is lost but one member of the group. Since that person knows the way out it's "Lead on, McDuff!" & away we go! We might be stranded on an Island with no way off except for the person with the boat! This does not give the leader anything but the responsiblity to use their particular knowledge or equipment for the good of the group.

I find that an interesting statement sarge, I agree with it in the sense that the guy with the boat has certain power. I want to compare it to the $1,000 knife. I think because of how modern ppl think about ownership the same thing would happen. A bad example of what I think could happen would be like jack in lord of the flies, while a good scenario would be the owner standing up and using his knife to benefit the group. I don't think it would be taken away, but he would have some very specific responsibilities that others don't.

[mangyhyena]

Leadership:
I have been on other survival forums and I have seen a widely held assumption repeated time and again. (Not by everyone, but by a high enough percentage of survivalists that it's worth commenting on.) The assumption is that because survivalists have knowledge and skills pertaining to survival they're a natural choice as leader of a group, assuming no one else in the group is as knowledgeable or skilled. I think this is dead wrong. I think that even though the survivalist has these skills and knowledge, there may well be someone better qualified to lead within the group, even if that individual does not have those skills and knowledge. Have any of you ever worked in a place where a new lead, supervisor, or manager was hired and he/she didn't know as much about the business as you did? Why do you think that individual was hired over you? Perhaps that individual has proven, through a job history, that he/she is a competent leader with skills valuable to your place of business even though his/her particular skills are not specific to the tasks you perform at your job.

Let's look at the one thing so many believe qualifies them to lead: knowledge and skills pertaining specifically to survival. You're in a group where you're the only one who knows what to do to stay alive and has the skills to do so. You will use those skills and knowledge to benefit the group on the condition that you become leader. Great, now you're in charge because you've blackmailed them with something they need to survive. But how long before the rest of the group learns your skills and has your knowledge? They will learn very quickly because their lives depend on it! Once they do, why would they need you to be in charge anymore? Answer---they don't.

IMHO, leadership requires more than knowledge and skills. Perhaps Volwest could comment of what qualities make for an effective leader. And what type of leader is required during a long-term emergency.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I wouldn't choose to be the leader of a whole group. I would do it if there was no one else and they chose me, but I know there are others who would do a better job. In other words, I'd do in a pinch, but I'm not the ideal candidate. I'm not afraid of the responsibility (or at least afraid enough to reject the job if it needs doing) and I do not believe I'm a totally incompetent leader, I just believe there are other people who are more skilled at actually leading groups.

Just being honest.

What do you all think?

[owl_girl]

wareagle,

Pretty much all men want to "save the world".
I cannot talk about it more because it is related to religions..."one man vs the world"...But thank you for expressing this "tension".

You also talk about the fear of the unknown...this is another instinct of ours, and like many others, comes from a time where venturing out of the cave was synonymous of extreme danger. "Out there", is the unknown, and the safety in numbers was paramount to survival.
Of course today, this instinct, like many others, has taken a different shape, it has evolved with us (not much), and governs many of our "actions" (re-actions).

The "taking what is mine" thing, can be observed in dogs when we approach their food bowl. This is more linked to the fear of "lacking", and this subject can be a gold mine for the survivor, because it exposes many unconscious processes impacting our survival. Maybe i'll talk about it later...


"so when the shtf and some one comes down the street how will i react? the way i have been trained to do my whole life."

I think this is an amazing statement...it shows how programed we are to do certain things...you link your conditioning to the military, but the rabbit hole goes way, way deeper.
Conditioning is another subject we might talk about if you are interested...

A dog grads his food bowl because of fear of lacking? No a dog grads his food bowl because of fear of loosing his dominate position. You are lower ranking then him so you get to eat last. If your dog is grading his food bowl from you you need to establish your role as leader not treat his fear of lacking. I’d train him for you but I’m to lazy to walk that far lol

[Sarge47]

Okay, here's some stuff to chew on. 1st, I only used the $1000 knife because the respondant in the post he mentioned it mentioned also "pride of ownership."
I believe that I could be lost in the woods with any or all of this group and we would have enough knives, guns, poison darts and machetes to scare off Osama Bin Laden! I used the knife because it was an easy thing to grab on to to demonstrate what has certainly proven itself here, that just about everyone here, while certainly qualified enough on a solo jaunt in the woods, might find difficulty in accepting authority! Yet, in order to survive, you just might have to do that! If I had both the mindset and the $$$ to purchase a $!000 knife, and the leader of the group told me that, for whatever reason, I had to give the knife up to save someone else's life, even someone who was totally unpopular along with the fact that I'd never see the knife again I'd do it without grumbling...much. What's a human life worth? Less than a $1000? Nonsense! I'll bill 'em later & buy a nicer one, but if I saved a life in the meantime...well that's what survival is all about, isn't it? Saving lives. Now please comment, especially some of you lurkers!:rolleyes:

[trax]

Is there a point to your example of chaos theory? We shouldn't help someone because later in life they might make something bad happen? I mean, that's the example. I'm just asking here, you've gone to great lengths to point out how stupid I am so clear this up for me. Doesn't chaos theory mean that nothing is predictable? Maybe humans should stop breeding altogether because some people grow up to be serial killers.

[Sarge47]

Chaos theory is unpredictable, you demonstrate that yourself, VW. In everything that I teach to anybody who bothers to listen is this: I err on the side of caution." Who's to decide who's going to live or die? What if someone wanted you out of the group because they felt your words were very offensive to them, but to do so would put your life in danger? How could we, in all humanity, jeprodize your well-being over someone else's hurt feelings. It gets back to Authority & Law Enforcement. All life is precious, and if someone you saved kills others, deliberately or accidentally as a result of you saving their life, so what, you didn't do it. Are you physic? Can you tell in advance who's going to do what? No. Neither can I, so we don't let someone else die because we don't know what the future holds; only if, by letting them stay, we would be endangering the welfare of the whole group!:eek:

[Sarge47]

"Perhaps Volwest could comment of what qualities make for an effective leader. And what type of leader is required during a long-term emergency."
mangyhyena.


First off, i agree with you. The "best" leader for a group is not necessarily the one with survival knowledge, or military skills, or medicine power, or the biggest muscles, or who knows what.

The leader will be the one that is able to influence us in the most effective way. This influence might be a skill desperately needed, or a certain knowledge, or like Sarge said, the simple owner of the last gun/knife/dart.

All of this under short term conditions is going to be what it is...for it means that we will not choose the leader, we will be under the spell of his influences.

Now, long term group cohabitation is a lot more complex. And leadership positions would happen the same way it always has. The qualities of this individual will depend on the direction, the composition, and a multitude of other factors emanating from the group itself.
Making a list of qualities would be pure speculation as to what this emanation could be...

But, there are traits that are observable in any leader, and the list that FVR posted, is after all not a bad one...for the perfect followers of a leader.

Natural born leaders are often charismatic individuals, with a pronounced sense of self. They are coherent towards themselves, and we feel safe in their hands. Charisma comes from the greek " divine gift", and it is the gift of influence.
Those individuals seem to project calmness and focus, confidence and assertiveness, but more importantly, they communicate very well.
This communication skill is the ability to adjust their speech to anyone...for we all do not hear the same way. It seems those individuals are born with this gift, and charisma cannot be acquired through life. You got it, or you don't.

Through out history we find such individuals that have had "the gift", and charisma has fallen into the realm of mystery. Charismatic people are everywhere, but often time, because of conditioning, or outside pressure, they were not given the opportunity to express this side of themselves...and this natural leadership mystery, stays locked in a box we call, personality.

I believe that in a group situation, the leader will emerge by himself, and only time will tell if this leader was and is the "good one", after that, nature will take it's course, and a pretender to the job will eventually challenge the position with or without the help of the group.

VW, this is probably the best post you've ever written! It speaks right to the heart of the matter. Sometimes :"Charisma" is often over-rated. Trust in said leader is, in my opinion, priority one.:cool:

[owl_girl]

Okay, here's some stuff to chew on. 1st, I only used the $1000 knife because the respondant in the post he mentioned it mentioned also "pride of ownership."
I believe that I could be lost in the woods with any or all of this group and we would have enough knives, guns, poison darts and machetes to scare off Osama Bin Laden! I used the knife because it was an easy thing to grab on to to demonstrate what has certainly proven itself here, that just about everyone here, while certainly qualified enough on a solo jaunt in the woods, might find difficulty in accepting authority! Yet, in order to survive, you just might have to do that! If I had both the mindset and the $$$ to purchase a $!000 knife, and the leader of the group told me that, for whatever reason, I had to give the knife up to save someone else's life, even someone who was totally unpopular along with the fact that I'd never see the knife again I'd do it without grumbling...much. What's a human life worth? Less than a $1000? Nonsense! I'll bill 'em later & buy a nicer one, but if I saved a life in the meantime...well that's what survival is all about, isn't it? Saving lives. Now please comment, especially some of you lurkers!:rolleyes:

If it would save someone’s life I would give my knife up without having to be asked. I would have a hard time accepting authority if I didn’t trust them. I don’t consider my self a large group person, I do prefer to have the company of 1 or 2 people so I don’t conceder my self a loner either. There’s no intimacy in a large group, its just a mass. Outside of my family I don’t usually seek out the company of a group. My closest friends are my family including my cousins. If I was in a survival situation I would trust them completely. I have a couple friend (2 or 3) outside my family that I do seek the company of and that’s plenty enough for me. As far as the rest of the public goes well they accept me but I don’t feel at home with them. If I was in a really large survival group I might seek out a couple other people to partner up with to watch each others backs. Although I realize that could turn bad if I wasn’t careful, people might think we’re alienating ourselves from the rest of the group and become suspicious.

[owl_girl]

Through out history we find such individuals that have had "the gift", and charisma has fallen into the realm of mystery. Charismatic people are everywhere, but often time, because of conditioning, or outside pressure, they were not given the opportunity to express this side of themselves...and this natural leadership mystery, stays locked in a box we call, personality.
I think we have different definitions of personality, isn’t charisma part of your personality?

[Sarge47]

If it would save someone’s life I would give my knife up without having to be asked. I would have a hard time accepting authority if I didn’t trust them. I don’t consider my self a large group person, I do prefer to have the company of 1 or 2 people so I don’t conceder my self a loner either. There’s no intimacy in a large group, its just a mass. Outside of my family I don’t usually seek out the company of a group. My closest friends are my family including my cousins. If I was in a survival situation I would trust them completely. I have a couple friend (2 or 3) outside my family that I do seek the company of and that’s plenty enough for me. As far as the rest of the public goes well they accept me but I don’t feel at home with them. If I was in a really large survival group I might seek out a couple other people to partner up with to watch each others backs. Although I realize that could turn bad if I wasn’t careful, people might think we’re alienating ourselves from the rest of the group and become suspicious.

You hit the nail right on the head, Owl Girl! If you were in a "large group of people you did not know you might have to respect the authority of that group. A good example is the Military. There are Officers who shouldn't be there and could cost lives. However they are not accountable to the group.
Here are some "Key Words": "Authority. Accountability. Team. Teamwork." How would you define these terms and how do you think they might apply?:confused:

[owl_girl]

lol...I am sure we have different definitions of personality.

Where can you observe charisma out of those 3 domains ?
-personality
-temperament
-energetic nature

The energetic nature, is in my opinion, the subtile foundation that establishes, no matter our awareness of the subject, our true way of communicating with the world. But we have to understand that it is an emanation and not psychology, therefore, any living being would perceive us (independently of his mind, but in his body) in a specific "mode".

It is part of it because it affects it, but it is not created by it. Our personality is not the source of charisma...i do note that personality can smother charisma...i.e. the box.

Do you watch the show "lost" ?
If you don't, there is in it a perfect example of smothered charisma by personality in the character of "jack", the natural born leader, that does not accept his role, his nature.
Actually the show is a gold mine for survival/group insights...and the theoretical philosophical approach to natures.

I see…I think. I’ve seen lost a couple of times but I don’t usually watch it.

[owl_girl]

You hit the nail right on the head, Owl Girl! If you were in a "large group of people you did not know you might have to respect the authority of that group. A good example is the Military. There are Officers who shouldn't be there and could cost lives. However they are not accountable to the group.
Here are some "Key Words": "Authority. Accountability. Team. Teamwork." How would you define these terms and how do you think they might apply?:confused:
If someone has authority over me then they have the ability to make decisions above my own, accountability, kind of like responsibility, team a group of people that come together to use each other and work together to accomplish the same goal, teamwork when a group is working together efficiently. Don’t know if that’s what your looking for.:confused:

[wareagle69]

conditioning is definetley a good adjuctive for it also volwest,you see i do not think of myself as the deep thinker that you and the sarge seem to be, i go more on instinct. in the group dynamic that we are talking about with the idea of giving up a 1000 dollar knife to save a life, first thing i'm going to think is how is this going to effect me and mine. selfish maybe but honest.

[trax]

Trax,

It simply means that what seems obvious is often time not.
I was referring to Sarge's comment about saving lives...

This is about acting instead of re-acting. That is all i talk about in every post. If you stop to help because of all the inventory you have gathered over the years, it is no longer "a choice", an action, it is simply a reaction...and this reaction will haunt you.

"First you must unlearn all that you have learned" wasn't that Yoda to Luke Skywalker?

"There is do and there is do not, there is not try" same two conversationalists.

So, isn't the inventory we've gathered over all those years conditioning? It's pretty hard for most people to get past that. Personally, I try to make a decision in any situation that I believe is right for that moment or situation. Of course, I can't avoid totally letting previous conditioning and/or training influence me, whether it's something my parents taught me or CPR or the Golden Rule or Murphy's Law, lol. Oddly enough, in several "crisis" situations I've been in, I've simply gone ahead and done what I thought was the right thing, much to the chagrin of the supposed "leaders" and the things I've done have always worked out well for myself and those around me. Authorities however, often seem more concerned with people adhering to their process than in the results people might achieve on their own, no matter how positive.

[nell67]

wareagle,

That $1000 knife is worthless if it isnt used for the good of everyone,and who knows it may just be you or a member of yours that it may be saving,if not this time then maybe the next time. After all in a true survival situation,money is itself probably going to be worthless,which would make the value of the knife nothing if not used to help when it is needed.

Not trying to start an argument just offering my opinion here.If it was my knife and it was the only thing we had that could save your life,I'd give it up in a heartbeat.

[trax]

wareagle,
After all in a true survival situation,money is itself probably going to be worthless,which would make the value of the knife nothing if not used to help when it is needed.

...but, but it's his knife....probably his Bear Gryll's autographed one:) Actually I thought that was brilliant Nell.

Not trying to start an argument just offering my opinion here.If it was my knife and it was the only thing we had that could save your life,I'd give it up in a heartbeat.

yes, you are..you're trying to start something....come on now, admit it...don't worry wareagle's a big boy he can take it :D :D

[nell67]

nah not really trying to start anything ,just trying to get some to think about what is more valueable,a life,or money spent on a knife that could be used to save that life,you can carry it around every day of your life,but it has no value whatsoever just hanging there on your side,you gotta use it to realize the true value in it.Personally,I would not spend a dime on anything that I could not or would not use,and using it to save one or all members of a group just increased its value. I do not put value on things,I put value on the lives around me.


Ok maybe I am trying to start something....

[wareagle69]

as a matter of fact i got it last week when i graduated from bears school i was his top student.

nell i do not perceive this as an attack, i understand everyones thinking about saving a life and the good of the group, but how is giving up a knife going to save a life? are we bartering with hostile forces in that case i will not surrender a weapon, maybe i do not understand where this whole idea came from but before i turn over anything to anyone i will consider how it will efeect myself and the ppl i am reponsible for if someone else has to die but the ppl i am protecting live, well i shrug my shoulders with indiference.

[nell67]

no not a personal attack hun, say someone in our group was being attacked by.... a bear..and all the yelling and hitting with whatever we could get our hands on has done nothing to stop the monster from its attack,the only thing left is..."the knife".... would you use that knife to stab the bear even though you might not kill it, but it does cause the bear to retreat and possibly take the knife with it into the woods,we might or might not find the bear later dead and you recover the knife,or the bear may not die at all and the knife is lost....would you?

I know this is pretty much an unrealistic scenerio(in my area anyways),but it just popped into my head since you mentioned Bear Grylls,LOL just a whatif

[Sarge47]

as a matter of fact i got it last week when i graduated from bears school i was his top student.

nell i do not perceive this as an attack, i understand everyones thinking about saving a life and the good of the group, but how is giving up a knife going to save a life? are we bartering with hostile forces in that case i will not surrender a weapon, maybe i do not understand where this whole idea came from but before i turn over anything to anyone i will consider how it will efeect myself and the ppl i am reponsible for if someone else has to die but the ppl i am protecting live, well i shrug my shoulders with indiference.

Okay guys, here's what I'm saying: Wareagle's right, the knife was not the issue, pride in personal possesions over the greater good of the group was the point. In every evaluation, weather or not your evaluating yourself alone or with others you need to search out your weaknesses and find ways to strengthen them. Only then will you become the true survivor, hopefully. My perception of the Wolf Pack is that it is growing in knowledge, skills & equipment. I would "ride the river" with any one of you. However their is a weakness in this group when it comes to authority, trust, and teamwork. That is very understandable, after all we really don't know one another save for this forum. How does anyone know that they can truly trust anyone else?
The clue was in the Keyword: "Accountability". The group giveth, the group can taketh away. The reason many of you struggle with this is that your not partial to big groups. Can't blame you as neither am I. I do like to think, however, if it would keep everybody alive that I would follow instructions. If I think that doing so is going to be a problem I'll 1st bring it up before the group and hopefully get them to agree. If they do there'll be a new sheriff in town, if not it's back to the drawing board. But trust me on this, in a survival situation nobody's going to have time to worry about politics too much.:rolleyes:

[wareagle69]

wouldn't need to nell, allot of ppl here seem to be dangerous and can hunt anything or throw poison darts or even lightning bolts from their arses or cast magic spells so i would feel perfectly safe.

[nell67]

lightening bolts?? I missed that post LOL

[trax]

wouldn't need to nell, allot of ppl here seem to be dangerous and can hunt anything or throw poison darts or even lightning bolts from their arses or cast magic spells so i would feel perfectly safe.

Not too sure I'd feel perfectly safe with someone shooting lightning bolts from their arses....

[wareagle69]

i think you both understand the deeper meaning of my sarcasm.

[FVR]

So we have a group of people, one knife, and a bear.

Who's going to run up to the bear and stick it in? You're going to loose the knife and maybe your life.

I would think that if there was one knife, say 5 / 6 people, one of those people would have the insite when they take stock of their equipment, to make 6 spears. Real easy, whittle down to a point and wow you're done. 6 spears poking a bear, bear just might get a diff. idea for lunch.

Really depends, if the person who gets attacked by the bear, was he doing something stupid? will engaging the bear bring harm to the rest of the group?

Are you really bad enough to take on a bear, well maybe if you have a $1000.00 knife. Reminds me of an Lt in Panama, he had a big knife. He wasn't worth a pot to piss in.

Personally, don't give up my Kabar. I'll make you spears, cut down some bamboo and make kick arse knives for you. If you want to take my knife, ya gonna get cut.

Honestly, after I go through all the scenarios in that split second while a team member is getting attacked by a bear, I'll stick the freak'n bear, and I'll die.



...and killed the bear that killed me.



Anyway, l am dead.

[spiritman]

Okay, here's some stuff to chew on. 1st, I only used the $1000 knife because the respondant in the post he mentioned it mentioned also "pride of ownership."
I believe that I could be lost in the woods with any or all of this group and we would have enough knives, guns, poison darts and machetes to scare off Osama Bin Laden! I used the knife because it was an easy thing to grab on to to demonstrate what has certainly proven itself here, that just about everyone here, while certainly qualified enough on a solo jaunt in the woods, might find difficulty in accepting authority! Yet, in order to survive, you just might have to do that! If I had both the mindset and the $$$ to purchase a $!000 knife, and the leader of the group told me that, for whatever reason, I had to give the knife up to save someone else's life, even someone who was totally unpopular along with the fact that I'd never see the knife again I'd do it without grumbling...much. What's a human life worth? Less than a $1000? Nonsense! I'll bill 'em later & buy a nicer one, but if I saved a life in the meantime...well that's what survival is all about, isn't it? Saving lives. Now please comment, especially some of you lurkers!:rolleyes:

Ok sarge, you asked for it! lol

Having to GIVE UP your knife for good to save someone would be an incredibly extreme case, I can only think of one reason you would have to give up your knife for someone else (even reading about the bear scenario) and that's when someone with a gun is making you give them ALL of your stuff or they will kill members of the group. In any other circumstance You will be able to reclaim it or be the one to use it.

Survival isn't about saving lives, rescue is about saving lives. What's the point of just 'surviving'? One person can live out their days alone but without others, or being able to pass on your knowledge to help others there is no point.

Example; There was a guy who decided to live off the land by himself so he got a rifle and his camping gear and left for the woods. He lived well for a while hunting from an old abandoned bus he found. He ultimately did a few things wrong, and ended up dying, but before he did he wrote in his journal about sharing. That life itself was worthless without someone to share it with, even our lone wolves are married!

[spiritman]

Okay guys, here's what I'm saying: Wareagle's right, the knife was not the issue, pride in personal possesions over the greater good of the group was the point.

I agree with wareagle in a different way, the knife was never gonna be an issue over the greater good of the group without someone blabbing to a strange possible armed and dangerous person about this bagileon dollar knife that could part a mountain and catch your food for you and make rain fall out of the moon on demand.

[FVR]

No man is left behind.

Volwest, you know this.

[wareagle69]

how's his mind vol can he still lead or do we need to put him out to pasture .

[spiritman]

After all, we are only as efficient as our least efficient member.

I'm not so sure about that, That's an old statement that could use some help.

There may be some things you couldn't do as well but for the most part that wouldn't be the case unless this is a tiny group, like things that you used to be able to rely on someone for but now can't. but we aren't talking about a battle or a sneak attack on an enemy stronghold, there would be things that the weakest could do, teach for example.

[spiritman]

Let's put it this way then...

We are being tracked.
A group of 20 armed men are on our tail...and old Sarge there can't run anymore, and he coughs so loud that trax is getting a little nervous.
If those goblins catch up to us, it is certain death to our men, and sorry girls, it's going to be a long night.
You see the fear in your wife's eyes. And by that point Owl girl is having a panic attack.
We have no guns, and no time to find a somewhat decisive maneuver to loose them for good. They are closing in, and we either go faster, or we are ****ed.

When that's the case then your right, and it gives sarge the opportunity to be a better man than the rest of us... as he stumbles off coughing valiantly in another direction... I think our sarge would have already left while we were still trying to figure out whether or not it was moral or not to leave him behind.

[wareagle69]

i can hardley wait till sarge sees what we have been up to.

[spiritman]

lol yeah I'm waiting for him to pop in and say something........

[FVR]

Wow.

Can you ask another to do what you yourself may or may not do?

The better question is, you can't run, you cough too loud, you are going under no matter what, what is your decision? With your wife looking in your eyes.

I know my decision, what's yours?

[wareagle69]

that's a hard question fvr hard question.goona put some thought into that.

[wareagle69]

i sit here and picture my wifes face if we were in that predicament. a very helpless feeling comes over me.my wife and i have talked about who should go first, i love my wife with everything in me and would never disrespect her but we both know that she has a weaker constitution than i do, she cannot handle stress the way i do,linda plays tough but that's becuse she knows that i am here for her, if she were to go i would be angry and alone but i would survive, so back to your question, what would i do unable to move causing harm to her and the group, all that i can say is that i hope that another one of the warriors is able to protect her.and i would fight to the death to give her time to escape.

[Sarge47]

Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I've been reading your posts and laughing my butt off! Before that I just got through watching the newest "Survivorman" episode and guess what he did, showed the proper way to drink urine, with a solar still! Okay, here come the bad guys, and you all want ole' Sarge to save your young little tails, is that it?:confused: No problem, but I don't go off alone! Oh no you don't, not with some former Army Rangers on hand. This is gonna be a team effort and your all gonna be in on it!:eek: The guy with the poison dart has got point, of course. Wareagle and Trax will back him up with stone/flint knives. If all that fails then VW jumps in, starts talking and confuses the crap outta them while I sneak up behind them and slit their throats with that expensive hunk of hardware...Hey! I love made-up scenarios, got any more?:rolleyes:

[wareagle69]

btw. that question bothers me to no end.my whole life as you guys know has been as a protector in some form or another, so to envision myself unable to protect what means the most to me quite frankley angers me.

enough said....

[FVR]

This poison dart dude, he better come through. He better be spittin'm and s*itin'm, fast, real fast.

Now honestly, there are 20 and they have guns. You have the Army Ranger, French Marine, US Marine, Sarge, a bunch of hunters, few young guys who think they are invinsable.

And a few very pissed off woman.

20 guys with guns, they better go back and get re-inforcements.

[wareagle69]

sarge ya make me laugh. i wonder while you were away from the computer if you felt the icy cold hand of death descending upon you from your merry men.

[wareagle69]

[.

.

And a few very pissed off woman.

time to duck and cover

[FVR]

Wareagle,

The question is just plane scary. To be helpless, unable to protect, if you survived, how could you continue to live.

My answer is very much like yours.

[wareagle69]

if i did live and recover..it would take me to a dark place that i have always hoped i would never have to go, even linda reconizes it is there she has told her friends god help anyone that ever tries to hurt her. i would not kill the sob but guarentee he will wish he were dead..

[Sarge47]

sarge ya make me laugh. i wonder while you were away from the computer if you felt the icy cold hand of death descending upon you from your merry men.

No i didn't, but it did my heart good to read those because for once you were all on the same page! Even VW & Trax were working together, fantastic! That's the "group mentality" I've been talkin' about. Of course the part where I go off and die...(sob).:rolleyes:

[wareagle69]

surprised me too ol vol and trax.

[spiritman]

What do you mean "I'm right"...i haven't said what i would do yet. lol

lol guess you didn't, but you put forward a scenario that would almost force my hand contrary to what i think about the "weakest member" issue. if I was the one to go? I wouldn't welcome the idea I but could only see it going one way. whoever stays behind would probably die or be a prisoner. And as much as I like the idea of being clever and doing as much damage to the enemy I doubt I would hurt more than a couple with a one man ambush IF I even had a weapon.

[Sarge47]

if i did live and recover..it would take me to a dark place that i have always hoped i would never have to go, even linda reconizes it is there she has told her friends god help anyone that ever tries to hurt her. i would not kill the sob but guarentee he will wish he were dead..

I can understand and relate to your problem. 1st, though, let me just say how much I appreciate reading about how much you guys love your wives. I've been having to deal with a dysfunctional family on my wife's side. No steady relationship in existance there, and there are two children involved.

There are no "right" words to say when someone loses not only a spouse, but a "soul mate" as well. I believe these words are true, "that when two people marry, they become one", at least that's the way it should be; we all know that it doesn't always work out that way. I also believe that death is inevitable. One of my favorite films that I haven't mentioned is "The Kingdom of Heaven" with Orlando Bloom. In this one scene he's trying to discourage a fellow knight from joining up with the Army. His line is: "You go to certain death!" The other guy smiles cryptically & says: "All death is certain." and off he goes to die in battle. I hear you brother wolf.:cool:

[wareagle69]

i agre with what vol west was sayi... oh look pretty birdie

[trax]

Geronimo, was and still is the most amazing warrior i have ever studied.

I certainly agree with that. Again too, our scenario is dependant upon environment. For instance, if we were in a hilly,rocky area, we could place Sarge on top of a precipice somewhere with some large rocks and a lever. A couple of our younger guys lead the pursuers down a path below Sarge, Sarge heaves on the lever at the right moment, gasping and coughing no doubt with the TB, but the ensuing rockslide takes care of twenty bad guys, thanks mainly to one tubercular old wretch (sorry Sarge), but thanks overall to the team putting the trap together and leading the bad guys into the trap. No one gets left behind, no pissed off women.

I'm certain that between us, we could think up similar "traps" in different environments, that's just the first one off the top of my head.

[trax]

surprised me too ol vol and trax. Geez you guys, just cuz we had one little disagreement of opinions???:D You check back a few of the threads and you'll note there's quite a few things we've agreed on...and if you think about it, if we disagree with each other that well, how formidable are we when we're in agreement!

[trax]

"It is the man with nothing to loose that is the most dangerous,(in the situation you described that would most certainly be Sarge) and if we feel that we have something to loose, we will be distracted, and fear will become a nuisance instead of a fuel.
We must first think like them. (Absolutely, Know your enemy)
We must enter their minds and pluck out their motivations.
We must become them, and understand them.
The best hunter does this with it's pray.(Very true, the best way to track something is to be where it's going to be before it gets there, track by it's habits, certainly not by it's hoofprints or you'll always be just behind it) It is not being in the "now", it is being 5 seconds in the future...always ahead of their re-action...for re-act they will."