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wareagle69
08-06-2007, 07:19 PM
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/themainmessage.htm

donny h
08-06-2007, 11:30 PM
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/backpacfever.htm

Trying to fix the link-
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/themainmessage.htm

Sarge47
08-07-2007, 11:22 AM
The above initials stand for "Post-Apoclyptic-Scenario, which I will refer to as Scenario "B" for short. Scenario "A" will be for "short-term" survival situations that rarely last over 72 hours, and are keeping more in line with what this site is actually all about. I think that there can be no argument here that just about every member of the Wolf-Pack here would come out pretty much okay during a "class A" scenario based on their knowledge, expertise, and equipment choices. It's the "class B" scenarios that are more unpredictable. "Bad guys" are able to asses the strength of any person or persons and act accordingly. Ergo, they take the well-equipped "good guy/gal" out of the equation by a well-placed ambush, or something like that. Surviving long-term is definitely a matter of luck as well as "being prepared." Duncan Long at the "Rubicon" web-site makes a good case for "trustworthy communities." The problem that I have is where does such a thing exist in this day & age? Mr. Long's text was released in 1989, a time when a lot more people could be trusted. Another glitch with "Communal-type living" is learning to live with one another; any of you "old married folks" will have a clue to what I'm talking about.:rolleyes: I'm sure Volwest knows, since he works in Pyscology of some sort. As an example, we all get along here on this web-site seemingly okay, but what if we were all to move in together, even as a way of surviving, what would happen? Nobody here really knows that much about one another.:eek:

Sarge47
08-07-2007, 02:40 PM
Your welcome, VW. Something that's important in any survival situation where a group is involved is "resources". Using this group as a model I wonder how we might asses and utilize the resources displayed here?:confused:

wareagle69
08-07-2007, 05:32 PM
i have typed it in by hand and it jumps to where it should go an article on backpack fever

wareagle69
08-07-2007, 06:48 PM
thank you dr volwest

i was really hoping that you would be able to read this article that i was trying to link to. it really changed my mind on the thoughts of b/o in a situation in will now use b/o as a secondary plan and make adjustments for a b/in maybe ryan in michigan should also try to find this site.


always be prepared

wareagle69
08-07-2007, 07:52 PM
true
i was looking at it based not so much on the latter part of the article about joining a comunity but rather on the begining of the article and the challenges faced when decideing to b/o

FVR
08-07-2007, 09:24 PM
Good article, pretty much true.

The bug out mentallity is great, for one or two persons, but when you are talking of families, it's just not feasable.

People don't realize that living primitive is alot of hard work. If you are not getting food, you're getting firewood.

Cut a cord of wood, pile it and use it for cooking and heating. Won't last you long. I can burn a cord of wood in the fireplace in about two weeks just having comfy home fires in the winter.

You ever cut a cord of wood? without a chainsaw? take of the wedding rings boys as you will get blisters. Then you need to lift, stack, and if you don't stack right, cover.

There are problems with the community idea also. Most conflict will come with those that want to lead, then there are those that don't want to work, there are personality conflicts, and power struggles. Then what happens if someone breaks the rules?

I've never minded bringing up the rear, because as stated that is where most attacks start. Always put your two strongest in the rear, your best pointman up front and keep that radio operator and corpsman in the middle and safe.

Gonna be a good thread.

ryaninmichigan
08-07-2007, 10:23 PM
Good article, pretty much true.

The bug out mentallity is great, for one or two persons, but when you are talking of families, it's just not feasable.

People don't realize that living primitive is alot of hard work. If you are not getting food, you're getting firewood.

Cut a cord of wood, pile it and use it for cooking and heating. Won't last you long. I can burn a cord of wood in the fireplace in about two weeks just having comfy home fires in the winter.

You ever cut a cord of wood? without a chainsaw? take of the wedding rings boys as you will get blisters. Then you need to lift, stack, and if you don't stack right, cover.

There are problems with the community idea also. Most conflict will come with those that want to lead, then there are those that don't want to work, there are personality conflicts, and power struggles. Then what happens if someone breaks the rules?

I've never minded bringing up the rear, because as stated that is where most attacks start. Always put your two strongest in the rear, your best pointman up front and keep that radio operator and corpsman in the middle and safe.

Gonna be a good thread.

Your in the south. don't talk to me about firewood. I can burn a cord in week just to keep the ****ter from frezing. the famaliy idea works. I have 5 brothers and brothers in law that all grew up this way along with me. I welcome the problem

Fog_Harbor
08-07-2007, 10:42 PM
I don't know if anyone noticed, but the original link's "404 Error" is kind of funny. Let it run for a minute...

FVR
08-07-2007, 11:01 PM
ryaninmichigan,

You have an extended family, good for you. Betcha that crapper fills up fast, watch out with open flame.

As far as cutting wood, been around my friend and have cut my share. I've only been in Georgia since 90.

The idea I was trying to get across is that, most do not realize how fast a cord of wood goes. Most don't even know what a cord of wood looks like.

Fog_Harbor
08-07-2007, 11:06 PM
I never really copped to the 'bug-out' thing, for the simple reason that it IS a bit complex to plan for the unthinkable, or unknowable. I live in earthquake country (although not as bad as Alaska), so that's what I plan for. I will never know its coming, I may die while it's happening, but there's a better chance I'll get through it.

I think in the end, mitigation is the key, but be prepared to leave if it comes to that. Case in point, if the 'big one' were to hit, what would be the point in staying here? I'd be out of a job AND a home.

I guess we just can't worry about everything - it kind of takes the fun out of life.

As far as community is concerned, volwest is right, there will always be people's personalities and dispositions to deal with. I do think that people who share a traumatic experience tend to bond at a deeper level than most of us can understand, but in the end, the personalities that were brought to the table would prevail.

My father used to say that if you redistributed the wealth, and everyone had an equal share of money, by the end of the month, the rich would still be rich, and the poor would still be poor. (I'll grant you, he's a bit of a snob) What I derived from that is that, like I said above, people bring their baggage with them, and they will eventually open it for all to see.

FVR
08-07-2007, 11:19 PM
Yeh, bugging out just never did it for me. Now if I need to go to the woods to survive, that's one thing. But to run to the woods with my tail between my legs, just not my thing.

I do envy the large familys like yaninmichigan has. Yeh, there would be conflict, but the main goal is the survival of the unit. They just have a larger unit than most.

The community thing could work depending on who is in the community.

Sarge47
08-07-2007, 11:34 PM
Good article, pretty much true.

The bug out mentallity is great, for one or two persons, but when you are talking of families, it's just not feasable.

People don't realize that living primitive is alot of hard work. If you are not getting food, you're getting firewood.

Cut a cord of wood, pile it and use it for cooking and heating. Won't last you long. I can burn a cord of wood in the fireplace in about two weeks just having comfy home fires in the winter.

You ever cut a cord of wood? without a chainsaw? take of the wedding rings boys as you will get blisters. Then you need to lift, stack, and if you don't stack right, cover.

There are problems with the community idea also. Most conflict will come with those that want to lead, then there are those that don't want to work, there are personality conflicts, and power struggles. Then what happens if someone breaks the rules?

I've never minded bringing up the rear, because as stated that is where most attacks start. Always put your two strongest in the rear, your best pointman up front and keep that radio operator and corpsman in the middle and safe.

Gonna be a good thread.

Now I gotta ask this question...what kind of wood are we talkin' about? Hickory? Oak?? Pine? Some will burn long & even, others fast & furious, and before you know it you're out lookin' an' cuttin' more wood. Yeah, it ain't like in the comic books or the movies.

Who's gonna lead? This group is definately a bunch of "hard-headed independent cusses", that's why I dig you all! When taking inventory you have to take into account what each person has to offer. Some people are natural leaders, others are good at other things. I'm a good cook so I know my place in the order of things. A person with an education in medicine would be the medic. The guy(s) with the muscles can do heavy lifting, but others could help as needed. Women folk always need protecting as anyone can be a sexual preditor.(sp?) Finally the big question; how do you get a bunch of independent thinkers to operate as a team? :confused:

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 12:35 AM
Who's gonna lead? This group is definately a bunch of "hard-headed independent cusses", that's why I dig you all! When taking inventory you have to take into account what each person has to offer. Some people are natural leaders, others are good at other things. I'm a good cook so I know my place in the order of things. A person with an education in medicine would be the medic. The guy(s) with the muscles can do heavy lifting, but others could help as needed. Women folk always need protecting as anyone can be a sexual preditor.(sp?) Finally the big question; how do you get a bunch of independent thinkers to operate as a team? :confused:

That’s an interesting thought, where do each of you think your main place would be in a team? Where would your skills best be put into play?

Me I’d probably be most helpful in the medicine category since I’ve been researching herbs and how to use plants as medicine. Plus I’m pretty accommodating, my friends always come to my house because they know I’ll pamper them, treat them when there sick give them back rubs etc. so I’d be pretty happy with that position or at least being an assistant of someone with that position. Along with doing basic things that I can do like gather firewood etc.

spiritman
08-08-2007, 03:45 AM
I guess i would fit in as the "worker". I always have, and I always will. I like to lose myself in a task. I'm also a problem solver, I look for the easiest way to do things and have perfected the art! Mostly so I don't have to work as long... (I like the FINISHING part of a job the most)

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 09:44 AM
So based on all that where do you think your main place would be in a team volwest?

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 09:49 AM
That’s an interesting thought, where do each of you think your main place would be in a team? Where would your skills best be put into play?

Me I’d probably be most helpful in the medicine category since I’ve been researching herbs and how to use plants as medicine. Plus I’m pretty accommodating, my friends always come to my house because they know I’ll pamper them, treat them when there sick give them back rubs etc. so I’d be pretty happy with that position or at least being an assistant of someone with that position. Along with doing basic things that I can do like gather firewood etc.

Okay Owl Girl is both the Camp Massuse and Medicine woman:rolleyes: , anybody else?:confused:

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 10:07 AM
Okay Owl Girl is both the Camp Massuse and Medicine woman:rolleyes: , anybody else?:confused:
masseuse? Na ah that’s massage therapist buddy. There’s a difference. :p

trax
08-08-2007, 10:57 AM
That’s an interesting thought, where do each of you think your main place would be in a team? Where would your skills best be put into play?

Hunting. Oh yeah, firewood cutting too. I kept my house supplied in firewood when I lived in northern Manitoba every winter for 12 years.

Oh, and cuddling, definitely good at that, :D :D :D

trax
08-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Finally the big question; how do you get a bunch of independent thinkers to operate as a team? :confused:

Awareness that the common good is the best way to reach the common goal

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 12:32 PM
Awareness that the common good is the best way to reach the common goal

That sounds good in theory, but I guarantee you, in actual practice all knids of things rise up!:eek:

trax
08-08-2007, 12:55 PM
Oh I know, but the reality is, there's never a perfect sytem.

wareagle69
08-08-2007, 01:09 PM
my place would be open i can cook and have medical training, but mostly i have been good at security, although most ppl who know me say i am a nice guy, most ppl who look at me get another impression 6' 4'' 220lbs lots of ink and well sculpted muscles and carry myself in a manner that ppl respect and have fought professional level in the mixed martial arts. since i was a kid ppl especialy women have always said that they feel safe and protected around me.

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 01:29 PM
my place would be open i can cook and have medical training, but mostly i have been good at security, although most ppl who know me say i am a nice guy, most ppl who look at me get another impression 6' 4'' 220lbs lots of ink and well sculpted muscles and carry myself in a manner that ppl respect and have fought professional level in the mixed martial arts. since i was a kid ppl especialy women have always said that they feel safe and protected around me.

Great! You're our enforcer! Sound silly? Let's look at a possibility that could arise. Suppose the only knife in the group was that $1000 Strider that we all know is owned by an actual participant here. Our leader, who is not the owner, decides that this knife needs to be placed in the hands of someone else. Remember, in a "group survival scenario" everything becomes community property. Of course the owner of the knife doesn't wish to comply, after all, he's paid out mucho bucks for his custom-made blade. Security has the unpopular job of enforcing the leader's, as well as the groups final decisions. Comments?:confused: Also you can spend your nights cuddling with Trax, he says he's "really good at it". ;>)

wareagle69
08-08-2007, 01:45 PM
yeah i have heard that rummor somewhere

wareagle69
08-08-2007, 01:51 PM
btw sarge i looked up the members records you have 394 posts followed by trax at 204 then owl girl at 193 then me at 137 er now 138

wareagle69
08-08-2007, 02:08 PM
i'll agree with that, i would not want to be in a situation where i need to enforce the rules(been there)rather helping to protect my pack. just naturally good at that

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 02:12 PM
That wouldn't be a good leader then...
If a "leader" needs an enforcer, he is just wrong for the job.

Any "group survival situation" is really a small, temporary society. There are rules that will be unpopular with some people, it's inevitable. Those rules will have to be upheld, however, even with the threat of force if nessasary. Law Enforcement is also a nessasary evil in any society today. Not everyone is going to be as civilized as you,VW. As the saying goes: "Man is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one." Also, maybe the leader selection isn't that great. We would all have to make do as best we can. I remember watching "part II" of Discovery's "USMC Survival School where the Marines had to remove one leader and replace him with another. It's an imperfect world with us in it after all. Just me tuo pence..:rolleyes:

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 02:14 PM
Volwest that last thing you said I agree with but I’m confused with that other post.
First off the cuddle thing was a joke so lighten up. And why would trax not be a hunter? If he wants to hunt let him hunt. And me I’ve always been interested in medicine and I take care of my family when there sick so why wouldn’t I help with medicine?

trax
08-08-2007, 02:14 PM
Waiting for volwest to make a decision or get to a point....why do you not see us in the areas we mentioned there sportsfan? I'm 49 years old and started learning to hunt when I was six. I raised a family of four kids on wild meat. So your assumption is based on what?

I guess I should have typed in "perfect political system". I guess in the situation as it was described you can just set back and be our thinker, while everyone else is getting things done.

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 02:24 PM
Sarge Im not agents having a good leader but corruption finds its way even into small groups and that kind of power would scare me.

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 02:28 PM
volwest you seam to talk more about the questions then answer them. You’ve already asked another question and you haven’t answered any.

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 03:24 PM
Sorry Owl... you are right...i haven't answered the question at hand...

My place would be, the enemy's worst nightmare. I am a warrior. I don't cook, i don't heal, i don't make camps, or take care of others in any way shape or form, i do not want to be your dad, brother, leader or friend, i do not dwell on your herd mentality, i am a loner, i understand Man and use this understanding to destroy him while he is looking at his belly button, wondering about who is going to tell him what to do, and how to wipe his *** in the morning dew. I am not here to make you feel better about things, i am not your shrink, or your solution, i am not your hope nor your saviour, my best friend is the one that i do not see, that does not make noise about how he feels or what he has done in the past. My best friend is not below me or above me. War is my home. I am not here to comfort you, judge you or help you, i am not here to tell you what you should be or who you should be, but i will tell you when you lie to yourself, and therefore become vulnerable to the roar of the forest. I do not choose my enemy, the enemy chooses me.

Does that answer your question ?
Yes actually that was my favorite post you’ve ever made, at least that made some sense.

wareagle69
08-08-2007, 03:28 PM
amen to that owl girl.

volwest has finally shown us how he can contribute to our society.

trax
08-08-2007, 04:28 PM
What you going to do? Bore them to death? My turn....I don't think so.

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 06:20 PM
Who said i was "civilized" ?
That is probably the biggest insult i have ever heard...lolll


Well...If you go by the marines...then we are in deep **** aren't we...but i can see why you would think that way. I mean, weren't you the one making fun of some CO's you had ?

but let me ask you...what is a leader ?

Ahh yes, the $64,000 question. The qualities that define a "good" leader are many. They earn, and hopefully justify the trust placed in them by the group. The "common" good, as was referred to earlier is, in my opinion, whatever is needed for the group to survive over that of the individual. Or, as Mr. Spock from "Star Trek" has so elequently put it: "The needs of the many outwiegh the needs of the few, or even the one." A good leader makes good decisions quickly. There is an alternative, and that is the leadership council, but they would all have to be on the same page. And finally, VW, no, that wasn't me talking about CO's, I was never in the military. I'll let others wiegh in with thier view of leadership qualities.:rolleyes:

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 06:46 PM
Oh i am sorry am i boring you ?
Am i not contributing ?

Or is it that you just don't understand where i come from because you're lazy or just too simple to grasp common knowledge and basic human nature ?

I think you're just dense mother ****ers...and still want to play the game of who's got the biggest shoe size. In the end, you're more into making bad jokes or bullying teenagers about their knives, than trying to understand how things work. You concentrate on your strengths, when you should be wondering about your weaknesses...and if by chance you do get an opportunity to do so, you make more jokes.

You have the mental discipline of a 15 year old...and you react like any other primate in this world...

It's funny you used that joke trax...I almost put it in myself, but then i knew one of you monkeys would do it for me.

Can you dig that humor ?
Sarge is right, many things happen in a group, this is what i demonstrate here, and i am sorry if you fell for it. And i didn't even ask you to give me your expensive knife...i just said i didn't think hunting would be best for you...or medicine for Owl...the result is you lashing out and defending yourself...like you were suddenly threatened by silly little words on a forum.

Can you imagine in a survival situation ?
As long as you hang on to all this **** about who you think you are, groups will collapse.
Lashing out? I simply stated why I came to my conclusion and asked how you came to yours, I didn’t call you names or anything. For me disagreeing is not the same as lashing out. I was wondering more about the fact that you keep asking questions but rarely answer them. I didn’t mean to make you feel lashed out at.

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 06:54 PM
Ahh yes, the $64,000 question. The qualities that define a "good" leader are many. They earn, and hopefully justify the trust placed in them by the group. The "common" good, as was referred to earlier is, in my opinion, whatever is needed for the group to survive over that of the individual. Or, as Mr. Spock from "Star Trek" has so elequently put it: "The needs of the many outwiegh the needs of the few, or even the one." A good leader makes good decisions quickly. There is an alternative, and that is the leadership council, but they would all have to be on the same page. And finally, VW, no, that wasn't me talking about CO's, I was never in the military. I'll let others wiegh in with thier view of leadership qualities.:rolleyes:
If I choose to fallow a leader that person would be calm, logical, and compassionate. But now I have a question, if the man you wanted the knife from decided he didn’t want to be in the group and he started walking away would you chase him down and take it even though he’s not part of your group?

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 07:32 PM
Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you.

Interesting that you do not consider questions as viable answers though. And saying i do not answer is strange...maybe you just do not see the answers in my posts ?
Can we really talk about group dynamics without asking ourselves what those dynamics are ?
You see to me those questions are answers in themselves.

VW, you seem to me to be a "deep thinker." I also find that you are a very intelligent individual and that while you would probably not make a good leader, you could probably be accurate in picking one out. The problem here is that your drinking from the deep well while most of us are drinking from the shallow stream. (Yes, I like my metaphors.) I often find that concepts crouched in simple terms are oft-times the most profound. Communication, complete communication, is what's really needed. It really cracks me up when you go on & on then come out with a simple statement to sum it all up!

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 07:45 PM
Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you.

Interesting that you do not consider questions as viable answers though. And saying i do not answer is strange...maybe you just do not see the answers in my posts ?
Can we really talk about group dynamics without asking ourselves what those dynamics are ?
You see to me those questions are answers in themselves.
I can see some answers in there, answers about what humans in general might do but very rarely what you personally would do, maybe I was missing something in your post.

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 07:47 PM
If I choose to fallow a leader that person would be calm, logical, and compassionate. But now I have a question, if the man you wanted the knife from decided he didn’t want to be in the group and he started walking away would you chase him down and take it even though he’s not part of your group?

Excellent question, Owl Girl. The answer is "NO!". He would be free to go his own way. As a matter of fact, he would have to! The old trite saying goes: "There is no 'I' in the word 'Team'." That's true here as well.

However, what if the owner of the knife has no food or water? If he wants to share with the group then everything that everyone has becomes "Community property", including his expensive piece of hardware if it is deemed so! It has to. That's what Vol West is trying to say in his highly articulated manner, and that's what I'm saying even more bluntly! You were also right earlier when you spoke of the "power". I believe that the leader would also have to be accountable to the group and could be replaced if it were warranted. In our modern American society most of has been led to believe that we have to strive for the top positions of what ever field we are working in. If we start at the bottom then we want to work our way up. The problem is that not all of us are qualified to be at the top!:rolleyes: I have worked at many different jobs, and under many different management people. Many were bad, some were alright, and a few were fantastic. Those few I would follow anywhere! A leader would have to be picked by mutual consent of the group, all members if possible. They would also have to keep said leader accountable. Notice I did not mention gender?

FVR
08-08-2007, 07:47 PM
This kind of gives all the impression of one's self.

Here goes.

I have always been the loner, don't depend on anyone. That way, you don't get let down. I can function very well in a team, if the team members all have the same common goal, and they take is seriously.

I am an alpha male.

Like wareagle, people give me a wide berth as I am not a friendly looking guy. Well, I'm just not friendly. No tats just the 100 yard stare.

I am known as the guy that gets the job done. So, that is what I would do. You need a ditch, I'll get it made, you need wood, done. You stand over me and try to give me orders with your hands in your pocket, we gonna have a little talk.

I don't play the little horseplay games that some young men play. If I'm going to use my strength, it's serious.

I am also a warrior as volwest and wareagle are. No better, no worse.

If ryaninmaine shows up with his 5 brothers and 5 brothers in law, I will be packing my bags. Too many family members, ya piss one off and the whole clan comes looking for you. Tensions are going to be high and control is paramount.

So, if you wanted me in the group, I'd come in. If you did not, I'd go on my way down the trail.

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 07:52 PM
This kind of gives all the impression of one's self.

Here goes.

I have always been the loner, don't depend on anyone. That way, you don't get let down. I can function very well in a team, if the team members all have the same common goal, and they take is seriously.

I am an alpha male.

Like wareagle, people give me a wide berth as I am not a friendly looking guy. Well, I'm just not friendly. No tats just the 100 yard stare.

I am known as the guy that gets the job done. So, that is what I would do. You need a ditch, I'll get it made, you need wood, done. You stand over me and try to give me orders with your hands in your pocket, we gonna have a little talk.

I don't play the little horseplay games that some young men play. If I'm going to use my strength, it's serious.

I am also a warrior as volwest and wareagle are. No better, no worse.

If ryaninmaine shows up with his 5 brothers and 5 brothers in law, I will be packing my bags. Too many family members, ya piss one off and the whole clan comes looking for you. Tensions are going to be high and control is paramount.

So, if you wanted me in the group, I'd come in. If you did not, I'd go on my way down the trail.

So let me ask you this, since you just put the truth to what I asked earlier about "Independent types fitting into a team." What do you look for in a good leader:confused:

spiritman
08-08-2007, 07:57 PM
lol sarge the simple statement is to make sure we all can see the deeper meaning in what he had to say with the rest of the message, even if we have to go back and read it again.

I'm an abrupt person and a lazy speaker, just look at most of my posts. Because of that I know the value of taking longer to say what your trying to get across. People listen more when you say more even if you repeat yourself in different words. For one thing it's easier to blow off a single sentence than a page of information.

As for the concepts in simple terms I think your right, but it takes an unusual person to see it straight off.

When it comes to answering questions with answers? The best teachers know that making someone think through and figure out the answer has more value than mindlessly giving the correct answer.

And thanks Volwest, you gave me quite a complement.

FVR
08-08-2007, 08:52 PM
JUSTICE

Definition: Justice is defined as the practice of being fair and consistent. A just person gives consideration to each side of a situation and bases rewards or punishments on merit.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be honest with yourself about why you make a particular decision. Avoid favoritism. Try to be fair at all times and treat all things and people in an equal manner.


JUDGMENT

Definition: Judgment is your ability to think about things clearly, calmly, and in an orderly fashion so that you can make good decisions.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can improve your judgment if you avoid making rash decisions. Approach problems with a common sense attitude.


DEPENDABILITY

Definition: Dependability means that you can be relied upon to perform your duties properly. It means that you can be trusted to complete a job. It is the willing and voluntary support of the policies and orders of the chain of command. Dependability also means consistently putting forth your best effort in an attempt to achieve the highest standards of performance.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can increase your dependability by forming the habit of being where you're supposed to be on time, by not making excuses and by carrying out every task to the best of your ability regardless of whether you like it or agree with it.


INITIATIVE

Definition: Initiative is taking action even though you haven't been given orders. It means meeting new and unexpected situations with prompt action. It includes using resourcefulness to get something done without the normal material or methods being available to you.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your initiative, work on staying mentally and physically alert. Be aware of things that need to be done and then to do them without having to be told.


DECISIVENESS

Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.

Suggestions for Improvement: Practice being positive in your actions instead of acting half-heartedly or changing your mind on an issue.


TACT

Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm.

Suggestions for Improvement: Begin to develop your tact by trying to be courteous and cheerful at all times. Treat others as you would like to be treated.


INTEGRITY

Definition: Integrity means that you are honest and truthful in what you say or do. You put honesty, sense of duty, and sound moral principles above all else.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be absolutely honest and truthful at all times. Stand up for what you believe to be right.


ENTHUSIASM

Definition: Enthusiasm is defined as a sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of your duties. If you are enthusiastic, you are optimistic, cheerful, and willing to accept the challenges.

Suggestions for Improvement: Understanding and belief in your mission will add to your enthusiasm for your job. Try to understand why even uninteresting jobs must be done.


BEARING

Definition: Bearing is the way you conduct and carry yourself. Your manner should reflect alertness, competence, confidence, and control.

Suggestions for Improvement: To develop bearing, you should hold yourself to the highest standards of personal conduct. Never be content with meeting only the minimum requirements.


UNSELFISHNESS

Definition: Unselfishness means that you avoid making yourself comfortable at the expense of others. Be considerate of others. Give credit to those who deserve it.

Suggestions for Improvement: Avoid using your position or rank for personal gain, safety, or pleasure at the expensive of others. Be considerate of others.


COURAGE

Definition: Courage is what allows you to remain calm while recognizing fear. Moral courage means having the inner strength to stand up for what is right and to accept blame when something is your fault. Physical courage means that you can continue to function effectively when there is physical danger present.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can begin to control fear by practicing self-discipline and calmness. If you fear doing certain things required in your daily life, force yourself to do them until you can control your reaction.


KNOWLEDGE

Definition: Knowledge is the understanding of a science or art. Knowledge means that you have acquired information and that you understand people. Your knowledge should be broad, and in addition to knowing your job, you should know your unit's policies and keep up with current events.

Suggestions for Improvement: Suggestions for Improvement: Increase your knowledge by remaining alert. Listen, observe, and find out about things you don't understand. Study field manuals and other military literature.


LOYALTY

Definition: Loyalty means that you are devoted to your country, the Corps, and to your seniors, peers, and subordinates. The motto of our Corps is Semper Fidelis!, (Always Faithful). You owe unwavering loyalty up and down the chain of command, to seniors, subordinates, and peers.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your loyalty you should show your loyalty by never discussing the problems of the Marine Corps or your unit with outsiders. Never talk about seniors unfavorably in front of your subordinates. Once a decision is made and the order is given to execute it, carry out that order willingly as if it were your own.


ENDURANCE

Definition: Endurance is the mental and physical stamina that is measured by your ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship. For example, enduring pain during a conditioning march in order to improve stamina is crucial in the development of leadership.

Suggestions for Improvement: Develop your endurance by engaging in physical training that will strengthen your body. Finish every task to the best of your ability by forcing yourself to continue when you are physically tired and your mind is sluggish.


This about does it.

I look for me, but better and wiser. Does not have to be older as there are many younger men / woman that are worth their salt.

Since this is not a military style team, ultimately the leader will be chosen. One who tries to take control without agreement, falls short.

Understand, the leader does not need to be an expert in everything. They need to be able to take the information given and make a decission. They must also have the loyalty from those they lead, to the point where if they have to make a difficult decission, against the ideals of sum, they can do it and those will follow.

owl_girl
08-08-2007, 10:13 PM
That’s a really good post FVR.

Sarge47
08-08-2007, 10:24 PM
JUSTICE

Definition: Justice is defined as the practice of being fair and consistent. A just person gives consideration to each side of a situation and bases rewards or punishments on merit.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be honest with yourself about why you make a particular decision. Avoid favoritism. Try to be fair at all times and treat all things and people in an equal manner.


JUDGMENT

Definition: Judgment is your ability to think about things clearly, calmly, and in an orderly fashion so that you can make good decisions.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can improve your judgment if you avoid making rash decisions. Approach problems with a common sense attitude.


DEPENDABILITY

Definition: Dependability means that you can be relied upon to perform your duties properly. It means that you can be trusted to complete a job. It is the willing and voluntary support of the policies and orders of the chain of command. Dependability also means consistently putting forth your best effort in an attempt to achieve the highest standards of performance.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can increase your dependability by forming the habit of being where you're supposed to be on time, by not making excuses and by carrying out every task to the best of your ability regardless of whether you like it or agree with it.


INITIATIVE

Definition: Initiative is taking action even though you haven't been given orders. It means meeting new and unexpected situations with prompt action. It includes using resourcefulness to get something done without the normal material or methods being available to you.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your initiative, work on staying mentally and physically alert. Be aware of things that need to be done and then to do them without having to be told.


DECISIVENESS

Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.

Suggestions for Improvement: Practice being positive in your actions instead of acting half-heartedly or changing your mind on an issue.


TACT

Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm.

Suggestions for Improvement: Begin to develop your tact by trying to be courteous and cheerful at all times. Treat others as you would like to be treated.


INTEGRITY

Definition: Integrity means that you are honest and truthful in what you say or do. You put honesty, sense of duty, and sound moral principles above all else.

Suggestions for Improvement: Be absolutely honest and truthful at all times. Stand up for what you believe to be right.


ENTHUSIASM

Definition: Enthusiasm is defined as a sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of your duties. If you are enthusiastic, you are optimistic, cheerful, and willing to accept the challenges.

Suggestions for Improvement: Understanding and belief in your mission will add to your enthusiasm for your job. Try to understand why even uninteresting jobs must be done.


BEARING

Definition: Bearing is the way you conduct and carry yourself. Your manner should reflect alertness, competence, confidence, and control.

Suggestions for Improvement: To develop bearing, you should hold yourself to the highest standards of personal conduct. Never be content with meeting only the minimum requirements.


UNSELFISHNESS

Definition: Unselfishness means that you avoid making yourself comfortable at the expense of others. Be considerate of others. Give credit to those who deserve it.

Suggestions for Improvement: Avoid using your position or rank for personal gain, safety, or pleasure at the expensive of others. Be considerate of others.


COURAGE

Definition: Courage is what allows you to remain calm while recognizing fear. Moral courage means having the inner strength to stand up for what is right and to accept blame when something is your fault. Physical courage means that you can continue to function effectively when there is physical danger present.

Suggestions for Improvement: You can begin to control fear by practicing self-discipline and calmness. If you fear doing certain things required in your daily life, force yourself to do them until you can control your reaction.


KNOWLEDGE

Definition: Knowledge is the understanding of a science or art. Knowledge means that you have acquired information and that you understand people. Your knowledge should be broad, and in addition to knowing your job, you should know your unit's policies and keep up with current events.

Suggestions for Improvement: Suggestions for Improvement: Increase your knowledge by remaining alert. Listen, observe, and find out about things you don't understand. Study field manuals and other military literature.


LOYALTY

Definition: Loyalty means that you are devoted to your country, the Corps, and to your seniors, peers, and subordinates. The motto of our Corps is Semper Fidelis!, (Always Faithful). You owe unwavering loyalty up and down the chain of command, to seniors, subordinates, and peers.

Suggestions for Improvement: To improve your loyalty you should show your loyalty by never discussing the problems of the Marine Corps or your unit with outsiders. Never talk about seniors unfavorably in front of your subordinates. Once a decision is made and the order is given to execute it, carry out that order willingly as if it were your own.


ENDURANCE

Definition: Endurance is the mental and physical stamina that is measured by your ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress, and hardship. For example, enduring pain during a conditioning march in order to improve stamina is crucial in the development of leadership.

Suggestions for Improvement: Develop your endurance by engaging in physical training that will strengthen your body. Finish every task to the best of your ability by forcing yourself to continue when you are physically tired and your mind is sluggish.


This about does it.

I look for me, but better and wiser. Does not have to be older as there are many younger men / woman that are worth their salt.

Since this is not a military style team, ultimately the leader will be chosen. One who tries to take control without agreement, falls short.

Understand, the leader does not need to be an expert in everything. They need to be able to take the information given and make a decission. They must also have the loyalty from those they lead, to the point where if they have to make a difficult decission, against the ideals of sum, they can do it and those will follow.

WOW! You are right, self-declared leaders usually have an over-inflated opinion about themselves and their abilities. The thing is, however, if it's an ideal situation you could probably leave and "no harm, no foul". However what if it was a group on a life raft in the middle of the ocean? You gonna go for a solo swim if you don't like the way things are going? What about in the middle of winter in a blizzard? Cuddling will not be a joke then, and it would probably be a "group cuddle"; I hope no ones "homophobic"! What if some of the group are severely injured? Think outside of your comfort zone. This is part of what Vol West was talking about. There are no easy answers in a survival situation. It can be highly uncomfortable, awful embarrassing, and downright deadly!:eek:

FVR
08-08-2007, 10:32 PM
Sarge,

Ya ever heard of "shark bait?" LOL. One little push off the raft.........oooops.

Honestly, gonna have to play it by ear, see where I end up in the universe. Hopefully wherever it will be, you'll be there to cook. How's your shoe leather casserole?

I can tell you one thing, you won't find me out on the ocean. I grew up swimming across the Delaware in NJ, use to love to swim.

Then I joined the USMC, don't like to swim much now. I may have mentioned this before, but night ops in the Pacific, miles offshore wearing a diving vest and fins, oh and the Kabar. Scary **** gets old real fast.

No water.

trax
08-09-2007, 01:15 PM
[QUOTE=volwest;4204]Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you./QUOTE]

I get a lot of answers from the things you post volwest, I really do. I thought that for some reason, you not knowing me except for in here, I would tell you a bit about my hunting experience, so there's a reason why I said I would hunt for the group. You called that lashing out. I'm only guessing that I'm the "canadian' here that you're referring to, like being in LA gives you some kind of intellectual or moral superiority? I doubt that.

You referred to the respondents to this thread as "dense mother####ers" and "monkeys" is that not lashing out? Those appear to be pretty direct insults to me.

I've said in previous threads and will say again, that all of the joking aside, I will base my answers as realistically as possible. Someone asked what tasks we would take on, and I offered my answers.

Sir, you seem to grow mightily offended by anyone who doesn't see things from your obviously superior (why yes! that is sarcasm!) point of view.

We don't know each other, but from almost everything that I've seen you post here, all I can say is...I can read the same books. Just to set my poor befuddled inferior Canadian mind at ease, why don't you tell us all one thing you've actually done that qualifies you to sound off the way you do?

ryaninmichigan
08-09-2007, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=volwest;4204]Ok "lashing out" was wrong...lol, but i was thinking about our canadians here...not really you./QUOTE]

I get a lot of answers from the things you post volwest, I really do. I thought that for some reason, you not knowing me except for in here, I would tell you a bit about my hunting experience, so there's a reason why I said I would hunt for the group. You called that lashing out. I'm only guessing that I'm the "canadian' here that you're referring to, like being in LA gives you some kind of intellectual or moral superiority? I doubt that.

You referred to the respondents to this thread as "dense mother####ers" and "monkeys" is that not lashing out? Those appear to be pretty direct insults to me.

I've said in previous threads and will say again, that all of the joking aside, I will base my answers as realistically as possible. Someone asked what tasks we would take on, and I offered my answers.

Sir, you seem to grow mightily offended by anyone who doesn't see things from your obviously superior (why yes! that is sarcasm!) point of view.

We don't know each other, but from almost everything that I've seen you post here, all I can say is...I can read the same books. Just to set my poor befuddled inferior Canadian mind at ease, why don't you tell us all one thing you've actually done that qualifies you to sound off the way you do?

I want to be the hunter.. Trax you cook and clean. J/k. Maybe we can both hunt you go east I 'll go west meet you back at camp at dark. Everyone else be cool keep the fire going and have Vol read to you.... We will be back with surf and turf

trax
08-09-2007, 03:40 PM
Volwest, I'm simply asking about the assumptions you seem to make about people, perhaps it's just the way you communicate your thoughts, but nevertheless....you've again assumed you're pissing me off....nothing you can do or say would ever be important enough to me to get me angry.

You rattled on at length about the great warrior/loner you would be, which I personally have doubts about, but so what? It's just a discussion. I'm in favor of a polite discussion and what I've tried to assert, by responding to the original question, is that groups of people in that situation will put aside petty differences for the common good and thrive, or collapse because of their petty differences (your assertion? yes? no?) I think Ryan's comment about the two of us hunting in different directions adds a little to what I'm trying to get at.

Most groups of people have approached these situations in a variety of ways over years, organizing tasks according to who has the best skill set per task and then dividing that task amongst those individuals is not uncommon.

Ryan, I like your idea.

trax
08-09-2007, 03:44 PM
I was born.

You understand ?
The distance you put between you and me, is only in your head.

Now, can we move on, or am i still pissing you off ?

another unanswered question too, but beyond that. When you insult people volwest, they're going to take it personally, unless they don't have a personality to begin with I suppose. You don't know me well enough for any of your insults to matter, but the distance between you and me is how we're willing to treat people in here. I'm not going to refer to anyone as a monkey or a dense mother####er

Sarge47
08-09-2007, 05:27 PM
As to your unanswered question, i'll say it again, it depends on the group. Like FVR said, if ryaninmichigan came along with his family, i too would pack my bags.
If you came along and i had to pussyfoot around you like a little girl because you are sensitive, i would pack my bags also.
Just based on this site so far, FVR, Wareagle and Sarge, Donny h, spiritman and nell, would be my choice for a group, where i will do what is asked of me in the intention to preserve that group. I'll die for them. Isn't that the true question...?

Are you whiling to die for the group ? Physically and figuratively ?


Okay, I've deleted the "Zen"story to get to the "Nuts & bolts" here, no puns intended. VW, you hit the nail on the head and I'm highly honored that you would include me in your "group choice." However, as you've also wisely posted in another thread, the things we prepare for are highly unlikely to be the things that we face. What if it were Trax, Ryaninmichigan, his family, etc., and they've no place to go?:confused: What if "packing your bags is not an option? Another old saying is "You can pick your friends, but your stuck with your family." Solo Survival is a piece of cake, IMO, compared to Group Survival. Go back to my unanswered question before; the guy with the $1000 knife's "pride of ownership" might be a problem. Independent thinking , while okay on a solo survival scenario, is not going to work in a group scene. What about the dangers of someone carrying a poison dart around? Duties can be assigned based on experience, after all, it gives the folks in the group something to do to take their mind off of their predicament. A leader has to have everybody's faith, trust, confidence, whatever you want to call it, that they can get the group home okay. Dying to self might be a Christian concept, but it is also a pyscological one.

trax
08-09-2007, 05:56 PM
Is there anything you can actually point to that you've done to back up your bs? If you give me an example, I'll accept it at face value and stop flattering yourself, you don't have the capability to piss me off, this is just idle chatter to me. You also don't seem to have the capability to give a straight answer.

Zen story anyone?

Two monks come to a river that they have to cross. There's a woman, the old monk picks her up and starts to carrry her over, the river carries away all three of them and drowns them. So what?

There are people in my life that I am willing to die for, this life right here right now, nothing figurative about it.

Oh yeah....and all the crap you've been spouting is available in books. I've read some of the stuff you've paraphrased in other postings.

wareagle69
08-09-2007, 07:15 PM
okay kids maybe i'm alittle late to the chit chat, and while i do not mind a good discussion(me and owl girl and the moose) i think this has gooten off the grid here. we are tring to learn and share, if i was walking thru the woods and heard this exchange coming from the fire i would just keep going on my meery way. as sarge eluded to earlier about being a loner, so am i, most ppl i do not give the time of day to. i have never been on any type of forum up until now, and i go thru my day now wondering what my wolfpack is up to.(sarge,trax owlgirl,volwest) the rest of you i am getting to know slowly ya'll just need to post more.

Fog_Harbor
08-09-2007, 07:27 PM
Got so wrapped up in the pissing contest, I forgot what the post was about...

Sarge47
08-09-2007, 07:56 PM
The problem with a head-butting contest is that the biggest butt-head usually wins.:rolleyes: However, all that to the side, maybe Wareagle can answer some of the questions I've raised since I've received very little response to them. Hmmm, maybe I should take a page out of Vol West's book as he seems to draw more response....:D BTW, if we're having a urinating contest please fill re-sealable bottles so we can try to sell them to Bear Grylls...I hear he loves the stuff!;)

wareagle69
08-09-2007, 08:30 PM
original post was about bugging out (b/o) and the diffuculties of day to day survival the link was pretty much an eye opener for me, i have always said thet ppl find the idea of living off the land a romantic notion where in reality it is to me one of the most diffucult undertakings,now i do not posses the verbal prose that some authors do so i suggest linking on to it. dohny h was able to load it see see his post on the third page.


ps sorry sarge to label you as the loner i meant fvr

Sarge47
08-09-2007, 08:43 PM
original post was about bugging out (b/o) and the diffuculties of day to day survival the link was pretty much an eye opener for me, i have always said thet ppl find the idea of living off the land a romantic notion where in reality it is to me one of the most diffucult undertakings,now i do not posses the verbal prose that some authors do so i suggest linking on to it. dohny h was able to load it see see his post on the third page.


ps sorry sarge to label you as the loner i meant fvr

And sometimes I am! I totally agree with what you said about living off of the land! it's not going to be as cool as les & Bear make it look while we relax in our air-conditioned living rooms drinking our beverage of choice from well-stocked pantries. The reality for me is that I probably won't be involved in the extreme end of survival, but more along the lines of a "natural disaster" scenario, but who knows.:rolleyes:

wareagle69
08-09-2007, 08:55 PM
well i started looking at new properties today something a little further out than i am which is a little out there (literally and figuratively) something with at least 25 acres, i think that after all these yrs of planning to bug out, that i do not think it would be feasible hense my thread on a must read, so i am going to build a secret bunker on my new property and hopefully will be able to fare much better than b/o

FVR
08-09-2007, 08:58 PM
The leadership requirements I posted are simply the USMC's 14 leadership traits.

I simply posted my traits as truthfully as possible, pro and con. Unfortunately, I have been a loner most of my life for a variety of reasons that don't really mean a hill of beans to ya'll.

Even in the USMC, when I thought something was not right, I voiced my concerns and had to make my own personal decision. These were sometimes good and yes, sometimes bad. I always stood tall and took what was coming to me, no complaints.

Sorry, I am not a sheep.

I have seen how this thread actually, the persoanality problems, how they affect the board and in reality, these are the same problems that a group of individuals would have if they "bugged out."

I see alot of ego's, mine included. I see how some interprit the statements made, how some take those statements to heart. I have noticed that some have thicker skins, some can take critism, and some joke.

Volwest is very well read, well his hobbies are psychology. Duhhhh. I do enjoy his threads as they do make you think where Sarge just asks really good but hard questions.

Totally enjoyable.

wareagle69
08-09-2007, 09:16 PM
[QUOTE=FVR;4302]The leadership requirements I posted are simply the USMC's 14 leadership traits.

I simply posted my traits as truthfully as possible, pro and con. Unfortunately, I have been a loner most of my life for a variety of reasons that don't really mean a hill of beans to ya'll.

nothing unfortunate about it, if your right with it. i remember being 4 yrs old sitting in the sandbox all by myself looking around and saying this is the way it's always going to be. now it had guys that i cuold relate to in the rangers but i am still always alone even in a crowd. i have my wife and she is all that i need.

FVR
08-09-2007, 09:21 PM
Exactly.

My wife and kids.

Acquaintances yes, put your life in their hands, not.

It is said that if you go through life and manage to have one "true" friend, you're lucky.

I've had that friend, once.

wareagle69
08-09-2007, 09:37 PM
my wife is my only true friend thats why i am with her, she is the only person that i am glad to see, not much in common with most folks i guess which i why i enjoy coming here can at least talk tactics with some folks here, wonder if any of us would get along in real life though

FVR
08-09-2007, 09:58 PM
I think that we could get along if we put all our cards on the table. If the fundamental idea's were the same and we respected each others place in the universe and accepted that, yeh.

Sarge47
08-09-2007, 10:25 PM
I'm responding to several of you at once here. Yes, I do ask the hard questions. Like some of you, I was "alone" when growing up, though not by choice. I'm different, always have been, guess I always will be. I like people, however, & don't mind it when they disagree with me as long as they're honest and not condensending; you see, I want friends, not clones. I only ask for your respect, but weather you give it or not you'll always get mine, the amount depends on you. I feel sort of at home here as it's become pretty obvious that this group is like me, misfits in the world. Oh maybe not 24/7, but a lot of times. The world would look on people like us as "nut-balls", preparing for all that could happen. 2 1/2 years ago a semi crashed into the bus I was driving and all I got out of it were a few bruises and a whole bunch of tiny pieces of broken glass shoved into every uncovered open orifice exposed. It made me realize that I could be dead any time. Once that happens you get a whole new perspective on life. Death has surrounded me. My cousin who joined the Marines in '65 and went through a hell called Viet-Nam died 5 years ago as a result of drug & alcohol abuse. My wife's sister was brutally murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband in a horrible fashion. My middle brother's oldest child, his daughter, was killed in a bad traffic accident 6 weeks before her 18th birthday. And two months ago one of my best friends only about a year older than me who'd been the older brother I never had died of bone cancer. Go ahead and be yourselves. It's the one freedom nobody can take away from you, and if I don't like some of it, so what? At least I'm alive to read it. The question I have now is how can one conform in a group of non-conformists, isn't that a contradiction in
terms?

owl_girl
08-10-2007, 01:15 AM
I'm responding to several of you at once here. Yes, I do ask the hard questions. Like some of you, I was "alone" when growing up, though not by choice. I'm different, always have been, guess I always will be. I like people, however, & don't mind it when they disagree with me as long as they're honest and not condensending; you see, I want friends, not clones. I only ask for your respect, but weather you give it or not you'll always get mine, the amount depends on you. I feel sort of at home here as it's become pretty obvious that this group is like me, misfits in the world. Oh maybe not 24/7, but a lot of times. The world would look on people like us as "nut-balls", preparing for all that could happen. 2 1/2 years ago a semi crashed into the bus I was driving and all I got out of it were a few bruises and a whole bunch of tiny pieces of broken glass shoved into every uncovered open orifice exposed. It made me realize that I could be dead any time. Once that happens you get a whole new perspective on life. Death has surrounded me. My cousin who joined the Marines in '65 and went through a hell called Viet-Nam died 5 years ago as a result of drug & alcohol abuse. My wife's sister was brutally murdered by her soon-to-be-ex-husband in a horrible fashion. My middle brother's oldest child, his daughter, was killed in a bad traffic accident 6 weeks before her 18th birthday. And two months ago one of my best friends only about a year older than me who'd been the older brother I never had died of bone cancer. Go ahead and be yourselves. It's the one freedom nobody can take away from you, and if I don't like some of it, so what? At least I'm alive to read it. The question I have now is how can one conform in a group of non-conformists, isn't that a contradiction in
terms?

I’m sorry to hear about all that. I cant say I’ve had a lot of people close to me die but people around here do keep killing themselves so that dos make it hard to fined friends.:(

About your question, I don’t know. Would you really want to conform to nonconformist?

mangyhyena
08-10-2007, 10:01 AM
Great thread, folks.

I wouldn't choose to lead a group. I'd rather have someone else lead; take responsibility for the lives of those in the group. The only way I'd lead is if I were asked to lead and then only until they found someone else more suitable. I could see, maybe, leading at first until the group were stable, until the group was in a safer location and providing for themselves. After that I can't see where I'd be valuable as their leader.

I would not stay with a group that had a leader who I believed would get us killed. Adios. I'd slip out and wouldn't look back. On the other hand if the group's leader was competent and they were doing the right things to stay alive and safe I'd participate in whatever capacity was useful.

While I wouldn't want to lead the whole group I wouldn't be opposed to taking charge of certain tasks that needed doing. I do have a fair amount of knowledge about survival so I would suggest options to the leader or group. They could take or leave my suggestions as they saw fit. Again, if they're screwing up then I'm out of there. I'm not talking about something unimportant like how they start the camp fire (lighter or matches vs flint and steel) but if they're making big mistakes that could lead to our deaths and they wouldn't consider a suggestion I believe is important (like posting someone to guard the camp at night) then I'd slip out and not look back.

About fitting into a group: I work in a small print shop. The group is tight-knit. When I first got there I was a machine operator and to me, they were a bunch of aliens that didn't make any sense to me. I'm an introvert. Think Jimmy Paige vs Eddie Van Halen. (sp?) When I first got there I didn't even consider the importance of group dynamics or fitting in. As a result I was the sandpaper, causing friction. I didn't look for confrontations with them but I didn't go out of my way to avoid them, either. I figured that if they left me the hell alone we'd get along just fine. (Does that sound familiar to anyone here?)

So, eventually I learned enough about the business that I was given a lead position. Now instead of a piece of sandpaper I was a frigging grinder. lol. At that point I saw the importance of becoming a part of the group but didn't know how to go about accomplishing that. (I'm not the type to back down and let everyone walk on me. Just wouldn't ever happen; I'd rather die.)

Thankfully, my boss sent me off to management classes. Those classes were basically classes having a lot to do with psychology. I learned things about other people that made it much easier to deal with the people I work with. For instance, I learned that one of the older people I worked with is from a generation where the saying went, "If it's worth doing it's worth doing right." I learned that when I had something with loose tolerances that needed to be done fast he was not the man to go to with that. On the other hand if I had something with tight tolerances that needed to be done exactly right, he was the man for the job. I got along with him quite well once I learned that. Eventually I learned enough to get along with all of them.

Because I applied what I learned in those classes they promoted me again and now I'm a supervisor, making the majority of decisions in the shop. My boss is the one who is a liaison between the shop and sales/owners/CEO. I do enjoy it and I'm able to get along with them now. I'm still a loner at heart but I can adapt to and work within a group.

I found Volwest's posts interesting because I find psychology interesting and perhaps even vital after TSHTF. I saw that people asked what role Volwest saw himself in within a group. And I saw his answer. However, in the right circumstance I could easily see him as being the power behind the thrown; him making decisions for the group and having his words come out of the leader's mouth. LOL.

All I can say on this is that if you can't blend into a group then you're going to be on your own after TSHTF. On your own your chances of survival, in most cases, is limited. A group has a better chance of surviving than an individual, in general. (Always exceptions to this, of course.)

Sarge47
08-10-2007, 10:29 AM
Great post Mangyhyena, however we're not talking about electing the President of the United States, but picking the right person to get everybody out as safely as possible. In a "perfect" situation you might be able to break off from the group but what if you can't?:eek: Remember where I wrote that the leader has to remain accountable to the group? If the group feels that the leader is not the right person to get them out then they need to replace him. And right now I'm vizulizing Vol West's words coming out of Trax's mouth, pretty funny!:D

mangyhyena
08-10-2007, 01:33 PM
Hmmm. A situation where you couldn't leave could turn bad. As in your example of drifting in a life raft in the middle of the ocean. What if they were going to vote on who is going to become tomorrow night's dinner and you're the least popular person? Still going to try to get along with them? Or perhaps they decide that you don't need to eat as much as they do, or they decide you're not going to be drinking any of their fresh water. Perhaps they just want to take out their frustrations on you to relieve the boredom and maintain group cohesion at your expense. Are you going to take a beating or two, or worse, for the good of the group or are you going to put the hurting on whoever considers himself/herself the dominant leader?

However, two different situations have been covered here; short-term BO to a safer location and longer-term, stuck-in-a-life raft-with-nowhere-to-go where you can't leave. Both require different types of leadership with different skills. And both may require different choices about going it alone or blending into the group.

In a short-term situation then I'd say the choice of leader would not be an election. Someone would simply emerge as the one the others listened to. I know I'd be moving my family to safety and if anyone wanted to tag along then that would be fine. If they wanted to become leaders I'd leave them to it with a good-luck wish. Either way I wouldn't allow someone else to dictate my actions in that situation as I'm capable of leading my family to safety.

If in a situation where a group has decided to take your supplies and make decisions about where you're going then I'd say it's time for drastic measures to protect yourself and your family. Even if they will let you leave sans your supplies you've still got decisions to make. A night of blood could be in order at that point. Or perhaps you might decide to go ahead and leave without your supplies.

Just pointing out that surviving in a group isn't always the best option. I realize that fear is behind a few of these scenarios. Fear is a perfectly fine emotion when it's called for. I wouldn't approach the situation from a place of fear but if the situation proved to be one to rightly fear then I'd act accordingly. Being an "outsider" could easily prove to be dangerous in a group, especially if the situation were extremely bad. People do things they normally wouldn't do in society when survival is at stake. They make choices they wouldn't normally make.

Sarge47
08-10-2007, 02:04 PM
Hmmm. A situation where you couldn't leave could turn bad. As in your example of drifting in a life raft in the middle of the ocean. What if they were going to vote on who is going to become tomorrow night's dinner and you're the least popular person? Still going to try to get along with them? Or perhaps they decide that you don't need to eat as much as they do, or they decide you're not going to be drinking any of their fresh water. Perhaps they just want to take out their frustrations on you to relieve the boredom and maintain group cohesion at your expense. Are you going to take a beating or two, or worse, for the good of the group or are you going to put the hurting on whoever considers himself/herself the dominant leader?

However, two different situations have been covered here; short-term BO to a safer location and longer-term, stuck-in-a-life raft-with-nowhere-to-go where you can't leave. Both require different types of leadership with different skills. And both may require different choices about going it alone or blending into the group.

In a short-term situation then I'd say the choice of leader would not be an election. Someone would simply emerge as the one the others listened to. I know I'd be moving my family to safety and if anyone wanted to tag along then that would be fine. If they wanted to become leaders I'd leave them to it with a good-luck wish. Either way I wouldn't allow someone else to dictate my actions in that situation as I'm capable of leading my family to safety.

If in a situation where a group has decided to take your supplies and make decisions about where you're going then I'd say it's time for drastic measures to protect yourself and your family. Even if they will let you leave sans your supplies you've still got decisions to make. A night of blood could be in order at that point. Or perhaps you might decide to go ahead and leave without your supplies.

Just pointing out that surviving in a group isn't always the best option. I realize that fear is behind a few of these scenarios. Fear is a perfectly fine emotion when it's called for. I wouldn't approach the situation from a place of fear but if the situation proved to be one to rightly fear then I'd act accordingly. Being an "outsider" could easily prove to be dangerous in a group, especially if the situation were extremely bad. People do things they normally wouldn't do in society when survival is at stake. They make choices they wouldn't normally make.

Great Post Ryan, however you might remember waaay back I said the group that would be the model is this group.:rolleyes: Do you really think they would make those kind of decisions that would endanger you? I may be a bit naive, but I don't think so.;)

ryaninmichigan
08-10-2007, 04:28 PM
There's always rock/paper/cisors...

I have lost buddies in the field, to "human error", or "poor leadership", as a sergeant it hit me pretty hard because somehow i felt responsible...i lost it mentally and went rogue. When they finally caught up to me they put me in jail to shut me up and calm me down.

In the cell next to mine was a foreign legion guy that had gone a bit over the top in a bar, and they had locked him up for a while until he went back to the forsaken place he crawled out off. We spent many days talking through the wall...and he was one of those charismatic individuals. He could manipulate anyone he touched, and before i knew it we were eating better than paris hilton on the sunset strip.

There is a certain hypnotic quality to a good leader...almost like a snake charmer, hypnotizing the deaf snake by the movement of his flute, and charming us passer byes with the sound of it.

In the end we are compelled to give whatever we have to offer, a coin, a meal, or our lives...and the responsibility of the leader is enormous, for it is not the gift in itself, but how this gift is used that matter.


No one tricks everyone. There are some out there that see through this. I am one of them. you can ber a pleasent as pie but if you don't know what you are talking about I am not listening.

trax
08-10-2007, 04:28 PM
There is a certain hypnotic quality to a good leader...almost like a snake charmer, hypnotizing the deaf snake by the movement of his flute, and charming us passer byes with the sound of it.

In the end we are compelled to give whatever we have to offer, a coin, a meal, or our lives...and the responsibility of the leader is enormous, for it is not the gift in itself, but how this gift is used that matter.

I've known individuals almost exactly like what you're describing here volwest, and like the character you mentioned in the other thread, I know one who continually chooses to ignore his own ability and refuses to have leadership "thrust upon him" for want of a better phrase. More's the pity from my point of view because he seems to have all the other positive traits that people in here have basically suggested a leader should have. The man is very much a loner.

I have a good friend (different guy than the one I just mentioned)who is very much...well not a leader but say a spiritual role model to a lot of people around him. The other day I asked him if he gives much thought to how much influence he has, or can have on some people's lives. The conversation went like this:

him: "I try not to"

me: "think about it?"

him: "influence them."

nell67
08-10-2007, 05:07 PM
Would I be out of line here to say that a leader NEEDS to be a loner? Able to do what needs to be done, to intruct and teach each of the members without being a friend,because if he/she befriends one or a few of the group ,but not everyone in the group then he/she sets himself up to be accused of favoritism even though the jobs he gives to his friends may be the jobs they are best suited for even if they are the easiest jobs which need to be done.If he doesnt make friends,or enemies within the group then there is a lot less chance of this being an issue, still going to ruffle some feathers here and there,because there is always going to be some who do not want to be told what to do.

Being the leader would indeed be a lonely job.

wareagle69
08-10-2007, 05:15 PM
volwest.
i have already looked into the cotaiiners about 3 to 5 grand up here but i do like the idea every one around here uses them for storage on their property

trax
08-10-2007, 05:34 PM
No one tricks everyone. There are some out there that see through this. I am one of them. you can ber a pleasent as pie but if you don't know what you are talking about I am not listening.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my sense has been that the people around the individuals that volwest was describing wanted leadership, again just my personal observation. Also, I think the important part of volwest's message was "it is not the gift ....but how the gift is used"

In that I just mean, volwest's description might seem like "leaders" are by nature very manipulative and that is not always the case (although it often is, I have no doubt)

ryaninmichigan
08-10-2007, 06:50 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but my sense has been that the people around the individuals that volwest was describing wanted leadership, again just my personal observation. Also, I think the important part of volwest's message was "it is not the gift ....but how the gift is used"

In that I just mean, volwest's description might seem like "leaders" are by nature very manipulative and that is not always the case (although it often is, I have no doubt)

I understand. I guess I have always been the tyoe of person do move into the role because no one else will. Sometimes you have to lead purely because no one else will. I don't care much for slick talkers I see the BS and it makes me sick when I see sheepel following along

ryaninmichigan
08-10-2007, 09:33 PM
i am the master of my destiny. bottom line. I understand where you are going. I am not one of them. I make my own money and awnser to no one other then me.... so sheep elephants not me. you read to much,,,

wareagle69
08-10-2007, 09:36 PM
you think far to much of your self youngster.

FVR
08-10-2007, 10:05 PM
I use to think I was the master of my destiny. Handed that off to my wife as the way I was going, destiny wasn't going to be long.

Life has way too many variables, destiny is questionable.

wareagle69
08-10-2007, 10:08 PM
to quote a great aussie "numpty"

ryaninmichigan
08-11-2007, 09:32 AM
You mean, you really make your own money ? As in print it and **** ? Isn't that illegal Ryan...so you are the master of your destiny...are you the master of your emotions ?
Are you the master of your cells ? Are you the master of your dreams ?

Hey..."you read too much", that's with 2 o's yah freak.

I mean I rely on no one else to suport me and mine. your just an antagaonist. SP? Oh course I can not control my destiny completely I have control of what is possible. The rest I let God handle. I do need a leader that is full of ****. thats all I am saying. and Snakes like you discribe are usualy full of it..

FVR
08-12-2007, 09:38 AM
I do need a leader that is full of ****.

I think you mean "you do not."

ryaninmichigan
08-13-2007, 10:03 AM
You rely on no one else ?

-electricity
-water
-gas
-money
-oil
-cotton
-plastic
-dentists
-doctors
-microbes
This little list is just the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to people, plants, animals, elements, working to support your existence. Life is a chain...can you sincerely sit here and tell me that you control your destiny, that you rely on no one, when this destiny is linked to the smallest organisms on this planet ? When Man will be done thinking he himself his half of a God, maybe he will be a little more humble...and use his eyes to see, and his ears to hear.

To support you and your family, it takes an entire world.
Call it antagonistic if you want, i am simply telling you what i see. You go from being the master of your destiny, to not even control it completely...to it being in the hands of God in the span of 3 posts.

Snakes like i describe ?
You are looking at it from a sheep's point of view.


A leader does not supply any of the above. you are an antagonist. I am done with this thread.

wareagle69
10-16-2007, 08:12 PM
i still think this is an absolute must read go down to donny h and then click his link. this is extremley inportant to consider i know i changed my game plan..

HOP
10-17-2007, 07:59 PM
some body has to be in charge to make the dessions big and small hard and easy. In survival type groups usually they are elected and everyone pulls thier weight and suplies there own equipment and food usualy a group gets together and practice things to see if they are compatable anyone who goes rogue and threatens the team will have to be dealt with. These groups are not spur of the moment things but well planed out preperations.
There is a good book written like a novel by James Wesley called Patriots that is a pretty good manual Wesley has a survival blog out there that has a lot of links and info.
I think we have to rember that aman or leader is only good as his tools or the people he has to work with if the group is crappy then the leader will only not be able to do a great job. I worked for some real jerks some times in the army but if they were good leaders they got my undying support.

nell67
10-18-2007, 03:28 PM
WB volwest!

HOP
10-18-2007, 03:38 PM
VW actions speak louder than words , there is no answer sound very much like giving up. Bugging out ,in or up has worked all over the globe. There is strength in unity., sound judgement in planning you can't feed all of humanity people who have their prioritys straight see this and group up to protect self, group and family. Paranoia is descrided as ilrational fear , if your fears are rational then it is good fear any type of break down of society will put the masses in to the streets and country side, will it happen yes sooner or later by a time table not controled by us. Now do I go get in the stupid line with my neighbor or do I prepare in the most common scence way I know how , this is a no brainer for me in days of old a fort worked much better than sticking your head in the sand every time.

HOP
10-18-2007, 04:17 PM
I get my knowledge on the ground and by the time I was your age I was almost ready to retire from the US ARMY and then survived in corections for 17 years when I say many rodent types try to survive with their head in a hole I have also learned that a foul mouth isn't a sin but it sure means you are crude and have limited ability to use the languge you speak. Most of the best soliders in the world are these tough mousie looking guys that will clean your clock in a heart beat Again the cursing usually reflects on your upbringing or lack there of. I can see why you are afraid of a group and that is your fear of not measuring up except in your mind.

wareagle69
10-18-2007, 08:39 PM
i knew it.

welcome back bud sure missed your input. and it looks like we have found a contestant already, gosh i missed this..

FVR
10-18-2007, 09:42 PM
Well I'll be damned. I was wondering if you were ever going to "pop" back in.

Pull up a stump, here is a cup of hot tea or coffee and a piece of jerky.

Welcome back.

FVR
10-18-2007, 10:23 PM
The comparing of "Fight or Flight" to "Bug In / Bug Out" is a close call. Also, it falls right in line with two men discussing stressful situations.

From what I've read, men and woman react to the stress' of FF completely different and would also probably do the fall on diff. sides of the fence on the BI/BO scenario.

Wher men would be more willing to deal with the stress' by social withdraw, aggression, and substance abuse, woman typically handle the stress by seaking social support.

And you wonder why men die alot faster than woman.

Comparing this to the bug in bug out, I wonder, men would usually want to pack it in and head to the hills where woman might want to stay, find out what is happening and take action a little later.

That being said, the fight or flight scenario has all but died in our society when it comes to the tiger stalking, chasing and killing us. Yes it might come in handy if we are preyed apon by the voltures of society, if and when.

Most of us deal with the fight or flight everyday in our normal lives. The preceaved dangers are not that of the animals that want to prey on us but rather the butthead who cut us off in traffic. We get ourselves all hyped up with the adrenalins flowing through our bodies, then what. We yell, cuss, give the finger, maybe get in a fist fight, or even worse pull a gun and shoot someone, for what, cutting us off.

So, is the fight or flight slowly being bred out of us? Is this bug in bug out our last ditch effort to capture the last bastion of the pioneer spirit?

Bugging out as I have mentioned before is for those that don't have families. It would be just too easy to run away from the fight. Hide in the hills and let others deal with the ramifications of what tragic happenings accured.

Personally, you won't find me heading to the hills. I have a family, if needed the neighbors that I really don't like, we would all get together and try to create a safe haven for ours. Even if after alot of thought, if I had to back off from being a dom. male, to survive for awhile, it could be done. IT WOULD BE HARD! My survival means nothing, my families survival is paramount.

Alot of rambling.

Damnit VW.

HOP
10-19-2007, 12:07 PM
Sarge how about the word TROLL don't know if I am supose to have a fishing or hunting liscence

HOP
10-19-2007, 05:32 PM
And the mind is a terriable thing and must be stopped in our life time. Be a milita of one , now there is a concept. Now conflict with the group except for muli personalities and no one to blame except your self If you don't like it complan to the boss if you do like it pat yourself on the back or high 5 your self.We have met the enemy and he is us.

owl_girl
10-19-2007, 07:54 PM
Hey volwest, how’s it going? It’s gotten a bit quiet around here while you were gone.

owl_girl
10-20-2007, 01:03 AM
Hey girl...
I am doing fine...you ?
A bit quiet ? You mean geriatric quiet like oh my god what am i doing here ?
Or good quiet, as in, sigh, volwest is finally out of here...lol

Quiet as in boring lol.
This last week for me has been awesome.

FVR
10-20-2007, 03:01 PM
I don't think VW is trying to show us that he is smarter than us, but rather he is coming to the table with psychological mindset. This mindset if looked at in the wrong light may come off as arogant even though it is not meant that way.

VW is looking at discussions in a complete different way, if you remember his hobby or maybe it was his education is psychology. His take on the fight or flight is right on and when it is carried over to other situations, can be justifieably done so.

I understand his ideology as my better half was working on a doctorate in pyshcology until she decided that it was not for her. I understand and support her reasons 100%, but damn a 4.0 gpa is hard to leave behind.

I am not grading VW as that is not my lot in life, but rather his posts bring an angle that many overlook. There is always the "do this, do that" follow instructions and you will live. But in reality, will you live if you do do it? Anyone can go through the motions and to do them without thinking, hmmmmmm.

I'm just rambling now.

FVR
10-20-2007, 03:03 PM
I don't think VW is trying to show us that he is smarter than us, but rather he is coming to the table with psychological mindset. This mindset if looked at in the wrong light may come off as arrogant even though it is not meant that way. Or, maybe I'm wrong.

VW is looking at discussions in a complete different way, if you remember his hobby or maybe it was his education is psychology. His take on the fight or flight is right on and when it is carried over to other situations, can be justifieably done so.

I understand his ideology as my better half was working on a doctorate in pyshcology until she decided that it was not for her. I understand and support her reasons 100%, but damn a 4.0 gpa is hard to leave behind.

I am not grading VW as that is not my lot in life, but rather his posts bring an angle that many overlook. There is always the "do this, do that" follow instructions and you will live. But in reality, will you live if you do do it? Anyone can go through the motions and to do them without thinking, hmmmmmm.

I'm just rambling now.

HOP
10-20-2007, 03:17 PM
Back to the subject of this thread, which I think is a good one.
Bug out or bug in either way should involve much prior research and planning. The group dynamic allows the infusion of additional equipment and skills and actually shares the expence of equipment and supplies. careful screening would be wise and many prior training scenarios would help weed out the fringe types and let you pick your group wisely. There is a lot of info out there some good and some bad. The botom line should be pull your weight or you will be a solo act.

GOOD JUDGEMENT COMES FROM EXPERENCE AND A LOT OF THAT COMES FROM BAD JUDGEMENT.

FVR
10-20-2007, 04:15 PM
Bugging out, I can see how you could pick your bug out buddies. But bugging in, you really can't pick your neighbors in most cases. You can if you get a group of like minded individuals and create a society of bug ins, or would they already be considered bug outers?

In the latter case you would be in some kind of commune or a group others call "those crazy isolationists."

HOP
10-20-2007, 05:19 PM
I think that bugging in would suggest staying in a urban enviorment which is possiable and the bad side of this puts you next to many who have not prepared which can lead to confrontation when they want your stuff. I think that the low profile approch to either in or out and never showing your actual prepardnes is the key Ragnar Benson has a book called survival retreats which discusses both rural and urbin survival, some god information some quite radical but effective. One thing to concider is that during the great depression country folks did better than most including the rich.

FVR
10-20-2007, 05:45 PM
The preacher man says it’s the end of time
And the Mississippi River she’s a goin’ dry
The interest is up and the Stock Markets down
And you only get mugged
If you go down town

I live back in the woods, you see
A woman and the kids, and the dogs and me
I got a shotgun rifle and a 4-wheel drive
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

I can plow a field all day long
I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain’t too many things these ole boys can’t do
We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

Because you can’t starve us out
And you cant makes us run
Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raisin ole shotgun
And we say grace and we say Ma’am
And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn

We came from the West Virginia coalmines
And the Rocky Mountains and the and the western skies
And we can skin a buck; we can run a trot-line
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

I had a good friend in New York City
He never called me by my name, just hillbilly
My grandpa taught me how to live off the land
And his taught him to be a businessman
He used to send me pictures of the Broadway nights
And I’d send him some homemade wine

But he was killed by a man with a switchblade knife
For 43 dollars my friend lost his life
Id love to spit some beechnut in that dudes eyes
And shoot him with my old 45
Cause a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

Cause you can’t starve us out and you can’t make us run
Cause one-of- ‘em old boys raisin ole shotgun
And we say grace and we say Ma’am
And if you ain’t into that we don’t give a damn

We’re from North California and south Alabam
And little towns all around this land
And we can skin a buck; we can run a trot-line
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

nell67
10-21-2007, 03:56 PM
May I ask why you are so defensive towards VW? We all got along so great for so long until certain other newer members joined and started stuff,it all sounds like jealousy to me and it is sad really because VW does offer a different perspective to different circumstances that many would not normally consider.

I wish that we could all get along again like we did in the beginning,a moderator is supposed to keep the peace on a forum not keep it going,cant everyone just shake hands (so to speak) and start fresh and just be friends,it really pains me to see this going on on this forum.

Nell

Sarge47
10-21-2007, 05:01 PM
May I ask why you are so defensive towards VW? We all got along so great for so long until certain other newer members joined and started stuff,it all sounds like jealousy to me and it is sad really because VW does offer a different perspective to different circumstances that many would not normally consider.

I wish that we could all get along again like we did in the beginning,a moderator is supposed to keep the peace on a forum not keep it going,cant everyone just shake hands (so to speak) and start fresh and just be friends,it really pains me to see this going on on this forum.

Nell

Alright Nell, I'll knock it off.

woodwose
10-21-2007, 05:06 PM
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/backpacfever.htm Can you update this link? I get a 'file not found' page and the computer starts talking back to me. Thanks.

nell67
10-21-2007, 06:27 PM
Thank you very much.

wareagle69
10-21-2007, 08:48 PM
woodwose did you scroll down to dohnny h his link still works he is about post number 4 on page one.

trax
10-23-2007, 10:59 AM
This anticipation, is the vibration of your own heart beat.

"I'm pickin' up good vibrations
She's givin' me excitations...good, good good, good vibrations"
---Brian Wilson, the Beach Boys:D

trax
10-23-2007, 11:02 AM
Bug in, bug out...depends on what the situation calls for yes ?
Well, or what you hear, can hear...are willing to hear.

Should you be ready for both ?
yes.

Should you be ready for neither ?
yes.

.

"I know...I'm in, I'm out. I'm in, I'm out. I can't seem to make up my own mind"
---Ross Perot on whether or not he was running for President a few years back.

woodwose
10-28-2007, 05:46 PM
Trying to fix the link-
http://www.alpharubicon.com/prepinfo/backpackfever.htm

Thanks... got it.. Hmm, I didn't know this website existed.:cool:

dilligaf2u2
11-01-2007, 12:01 AM
The bug out bags(BOB) are packed. The little red wagon is ready for the pack to go on it. I am ready to walk out of here. Will I? Not till all other options are taken.

I have food in the pantry to last months. I have a way to purify water. I have waist control set up if needed. If the stuff hits the fan I can stay right here beating off the hoards of do not haves and want what you haves for some time.

My backs been broke a couple times so carrying 50lbs for a day would be a chore. TDW(The Dear Wife) Has arthritics and can not carry 20lbs for long. TGF(The Girl Friend) is 62 and had open heart surgery.

The wagon would be it. We are set to stay here and defend ourselves for months if need be. If we have to go, I would rather wait for the masses to thin out before we try to cross into the distance hills and take our time moving across the vast wilds of suburbia.

I will not rely on the government to come bail me out. I will not relinquish my means to protect myself or mine. I have no problem saying, I was ready and you were not so why should I have to take care of your sorry asp now?

Bugging out is what you do before the stuff hits the fan and/or only after the stuff has hit the fan and you have no other choice.

Don

Beo
11-02-2007, 10:46 AM
I'm hunting, tracking, and scouting where ever we are. I can cook a little and have basic knowledge of medical needs. Ya don't lke that I'm with like VFR I'm gone see ya later no harm no foul. I more of a hunter protector type but would rather go it alone or most with two other people.
Sarge in the raft... its mine, splash your gone :D jk. I don't do any deep water, nothing more than a river.
By the way great read.

wareagle69
11-08-2008, 08:34 AM
i am bumping this up again, i have noticed several people reading this lately so will bring it up for others, when i first came to this forum i was a bug out type of person, i know this article helped shape my new plan, that and this forum, since that time as most of you know i have purchased a large property over an hour outside of the large city (pop 150,000) if you can that large, now live outside a small community pop 500 and have set up a network with other like minded individuals and continue to prepare to bug in, so please read the beginning article it does present some great info

metloaf
11-08-2008, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the bump. As a new guy on here, I found it interesting and gave me some ideas.

redneckfarmboy
11-17-2008, 12:31 PM
I was all for a bug out scenario like WE, I have since moved away from the city...in a sense you could say I made my bug out before the SHTF. now I al fairly well prepared for a bug in... plenty of G&A, little light on the food stores but working on it, I have means for water and energy. horses for travel and we are excellent hunters. my biggest issue right now is family.

first let me say DONT take this the wrong way, I live this way by choice and would choose this choice again without question...but in that choice lies an issue:

I have moved to my farm with my wife and kids my 87 yr old grandmother (sense I do not believe in the whole nursing home scenario) who has dementia and is on lots of medicines for health issues. I also have my 60ish FIL with health issues and again lots of medicine. we chose to bring them to provide care for them as they get older and give them a "happy, worry free" latter years. that being said my bug out options if something happened local are pretty slim, my bug in options are also difficult as one cannot stockpile medicines etc to deal with certain ailments. I have pondered this question alot: "how do I care for, and provide for the elderly family members who can contribute very little if anything, and will become a greater and greater demand on resources in a bug in situation. and if a bug out situation do I choose to leave them behind and take my immediate family only?

A Short term bug in, as a Scenario A situation we would do fine, but ANY scenario B situation creates these ?'s

rebel
12-06-2008, 07:40 AM
I was all for a bug out scenario like WE, I have since moved away from the city...in a sense you could say I made my bug out before the SHTF. now I al fairly well prepared for a bug in... plenty of G&A, little light on the food stores but working on it, I have means for water and energy. horses for travel and we are excellent hunters. my biggest issue right now is family.

first let me say DONT take this the wrong way, I live this way by choice and would choose this choice again without question...but in that choice lies an issue:

I have moved to my farm with my wife and kids my 87 yr old grandmother (sense I do not believe in the whole nursing home scenario) who has dementia and is on lots of medicines for health issues. I also have my 60ish FIL with health issues and again lots of medicine. we chose to bring them to provide care for them as they get older and give them a "happy, worry free" latter years. that being said my bug out options if something happened local are pretty slim, my bug in options are also difficult as one cannot stockpile medicines etc to deal with certain ailments. I have pondered this question alot: "how do I care for, and provide for the elderly family members who can contribute very little if anything, and will become a greater and greater demand on resources in a bug in situation. and if a bug out situation do I choose to leave them behind and take my immediate family only?

A Short term bug in, as a Scenario A situation we would do fine, but ANY scenario B situation creates these ?'s

Any bug-in or out would be short lived. You should take care of the elderly in both situations. As an infant or toddler did they abandon you? No. So, do your best.

Ole WV Coot
12-06-2008, 05:41 PM
I got to this party real late. My position would be the town drunk (every town has one). I would hope to be ignored by the "knuckle draggers" beating their chest. I am gonna appear as harmless as possible and keep my mouth shut, using everything I ever learned to blend in and I sure don't want point on any of your forays. Skip the rear guard also. I will help but won't be at the top of my game on any task. I will keep my hide free of holes and not add anymore scars. I am good at some things and still can and will use whatever it takes. You stir the pot it floats to the top.

wildWoman
12-06-2008, 06:19 PM
original post was about bugging out (b/o) and the diffuculties of day to day survival the link was pretty much an eye opener for me, i have always said thet ppl find the idea of living off the land a romantic notion where in reality it is to me one of the most diffucult undertaking

Very true...especially if you're talking long-term. For a few months or even one year is one thing, but to stick it over years is a whole different ball game. Based on what I've seen up here from people choosing to move out into the bush or live simply, the main reasons they quit that lifestyle seem to be:

-their partner wasn't into it, they split up, and the person left behind didn't want to turn into an old shrivelled hermit

-unrealistic money situation. Either unable to curb their previous needs to a simpler, cheaper lifestyle and/or unable to find regular sources of cash income.

-too idealistic. The teepee and walltent dwellers that only want to use handtools. For only one or two people living the lifestyle, not using any power tools period means non-stop hard physical work in the north, which usually results in a total disenchantment of simple living. Instead of compromising and using a chainsaw, skidoo or whatever, people seem to prefer just getting back to their old lifestyle.

Question is, have they all failed? I'd argue not, because at least they gave it a shot and tried instead of clinging to all the reasons why they couldn't make the move.

Ole WV Coot
12-06-2008, 06:35 PM
Any bug-in or out would be short lived. You should take care of the elderly in both situations. As an infant or toddler did they abandon you? No. So, do your best.

Congrats, I think you said it all. I wouldn't attempt to add anything like I sometimes try to do.:):)

Sam
12-07-2008, 12:44 AM
This kind of gives all the impression of one's self.

Here goes.

I have always been the loner, don't depend on anyone. That way, you don't get let down. I can function very well in a team, if the team members all have the same common goal, and they take is seriously.

I am an alpha male.

Like wareagle, people give me a wide berth as I am not a friendly looking guy. Well, I'm just not friendly. No tats just the 100 yard stare.

I am known as the guy that gets the job done. So, that is what I would do. You need a ditch, I'll get it made, you need wood, done. You stand over me and try to give me orders with your hands in your pocket, we gonna have a little talk.

I don't play the little horseplay games that some young men play. If I'm going to use my strength, it's serious.

I am also a warrior as volwest and wareagle are. No better, no worse.

If ryaninmaine shows up with his 5 brothers and 5 brothers in law, I will be packing my bags. Too many family members, ya piss one off and the whole clan comes looking for you. Tensions are going to be high and control is paramount.

So, if you wanted me in the group, I'd come in. If you did not, I'd go on my way down the trail.

I am with FVR on this, I also am a get it done type, and I am a warrior when it is needed. I like to work with my hands, I also cook, and could learn to hunt again if needed. I don't like to lead so that ain't my spot.
I need to be part of a team to be happy, as long as that entire team works, when the loafers come out I get upset fast. I am not good at explaining myself so I will stop here.
-Sam

crashdive123
12-07-2008, 08:38 AM
I thought you did just fine Sam.

mcfd45
01-18-2009, 08:05 PM
I am friends with Sam, I think if something went down I would mosey my way over to his place (also my best friends place) and I would bring my rifle, my foodstuffs, and my little BOB. I have medical skills, I am very familiar with the area and know where to fish and find game. I am 6'2" but I am a nice guy. so i am the medic/hunter/fisherman.

Beans
01-19-2009, 12:52 AM
Just read these posts. We're are not even closed to a surivial Scenario and already we have varied differences of opinon.

In a crisis, with little food, very little sleep, tension high, things will get worse Hopefully it would get sorted out in a very short time.

The anicents had a system or social structure , Warriors, hunters, gathers. medicine men/women (healers, soothsayers) the very old for wisdom, the very young to be taught. All required to make the community work.

I have spent my time as a Warrior ( USMC Infantry 1961-1970) and enforcer (LEO) and now at an age where I can do neither physically, however I do and can pass the lessons learned on to those that desire or require this type information from an old warrior.

My ulitmate role would be a type of Dog soldier tethered ( physically or mentally) to an area allowing the women and childern to escape harm.

No hero complex. just reality on not being able to travel fast or long distances. If that is required I would become a burden instead of an asset.

Everyone in the group would have a role, either by choice or assignment. The ability to recognize what each one can contribute is what makes a leader. Not the most fierce, not the stongest. The loner maybe the best scout. The small quite one maybe the best hunter.

In times of Crisis I have seen large men crumble, and the least expected one to emerge to take charge. I have seen charge nurses lose it and the newest LPN step up, the most fierce fail as they charged headlong into something that should have been thought out.

But then I have seen large fierce men come to the forefront as that was what was needed at the time.

Some of the best Marines I have known would/could excell in combat, but would fail in garrison

The very best excelled in both.

Semper FI

wildography
02-24-2009, 08:07 PM
very good article... and good replies also... FVR brought up a good point, with families, the "buggin' out" scenario becomes vastly more complicated...

I was living with my Dad/step-mom in East Texas when Hurricane Ike came through... talk about mass chaos... we lived 1/2 mile off the main evacuation route from SE Texas (and SW Louisiana)... and traffic was bumper to bumper (even with "contra-flow" traffic - using both lanes to head north). On top of that, lines at the gas stations and wal-mart were ridiculous. Too make matters even worse, FEMA or "some" government agency was buying up all the rice from distributors... I was told by a Wal-Mart employee that it would be "2 or 3 weeks" before any more rice came in.

The point being... you have to be "ahead of the curve" because when the SHTF, the unprepared masses are going to create chaos.

GOOD THREAD; INTERESTING TOPIC...

swampmouse
03-08-2009, 01:43 AM
Unfortunately, me living three miles by land from a large Air Force Base terminates me in most doomsday scenarios. I have a BOB for small situations that will only temporary. I have been one to recognize the probabilities of long term B/O's that require the run and gun mentality. The "Wolverine" scenerio plays out with madness and poor ratio of survival. Civil upheaval lends itself to stealing and pilliaging. I believe a home sitrep with preps and contacts make more sense in the longhaul. Also easier to carry 500 pounds of rice from the back of the basement to the front.

Rick
03-08-2009, 11:04 AM
In 1978 (I think) our community was hit by a cyclone. Extensive damage across miles and miles. We worked 18 hour days when the temp never dropped below 100F. Then went home and worked on our own homes. Everyone pulled together and worked better than I had ever seen. Folks were bringing something to drink out to all the utility crews and no one was complaining because their service was out. It was a true SHTF scenario and only community spirit put the town back together.

Everyone thinks SHTF is some civil unrest when, in fact, it's as close as the next tornado, cyclone, hurricane or earthquake.

AirborneEagles
09-12-2010, 06:45 AM
Can you imagine the people on this thread alone all together trying to make it? haha. One big happy family. =)

Seriously though, it is amazing how people will come together when there is a large disaster and there are enough with skills to help the others survive (or teach them) that really makes the difference.

A good example of the differences and the gathering for the same cause is by one example I can think of that is in a movie form called "Defiance" about world war II and the Jews who bugged out into the wilderness. It won't be just the young heading for safe zones, but the elderly and other war vets of all ages with their families. In which, the same cause can be something that bonds even the most opposite people together and they find safety in numbers as the more men and guns they have, the better security. I think that is why so many survival groups are popping up across America and Europe as well.

It seems, its not just a few people who are expecting the worst on one Continent, but across the oceans and everyone just senses something may happen that they have to prepare for. Just roaming through the Internet at Militias across America there were listed "known" 514 militia across the United States alone. Texas had the most, Michigan was second, and every other State had close to 10 or more. Survival/preparedness groups are in the thousands across America. In such a good way, its good to see people coming together for even preparing for the worst to happen. Whether its an earthquake or a nuclear mishap, at least people are finding common ground and sense that survival is not just a want, its a necessity.

Camp10
09-12-2010, 07:48 AM
I hadnt read this thread yet, thanks AE for dragging it up. What happened to volwest? He must have been gone before I got here and he took all his posts with him. I looked his profile up and it says 22 posts but when I searched for them, it couldnt find anything.

Rick
09-12-2010, 08:04 AM
He became Voleast who became Remy who decided to leave and take his posts with him.

beetlejuicex3
09-12-2010, 08:32 AM
For long term survival the man as an island / BOL hermitage model is not feasible. I think there's a reason our caveman ancestors formed tribes.

A single individual might actually perish the first time he becomes too ill to forage, breaks his glasses, breaks his leg, needs a doctor, needs a new knife, runs out of snare wire, runs out of ammunition, breaks his firearm, drops his pack down a ravine, gets a hole in his last water container, you see where I'm going with this.

Also, who will have and raise children, you know - to further our species, by themselves in the woods?

I read an article by a journailst who had started a self sufficiency project. Solar panels, water reclaimation, grew his own food, raised livestock, made clothes for him and his family (he had a small child). He got to the point he only went to town every 3 months. This was him living in a house, not in the woods, in a cave, or in a survival bunker, etc.

He finally came to the conclusion that even if he gathered enough resources to be completely self sufficient he would ultimately be a target for those around him. Also he did not possess all the skills needed to provide for certain contingencies while raising his family. He decided he needed a community of like-minded individuals in the end.

A short term solo bug-out to survive katrina or a regional power outage, etc seems doable. But not much more.

Sarge47
01-22-2011, 09:07 PM
For those of you who think "bugging-out" is an option, you need to read this thread! :nod:

Alaskan Survivalist
01-22-2011, 09:14 PM
For those of you who think "bugging-out" is an option, you need to read this thread! :nod:

Not for you maybe but it has been done through out history and will continue to be done. It is an option and one that FEMA often dictates. It should be prepared for.

Sarge47
01-22-2011, 09:34 PM
Not for you maybe but it has been done through out history and will continue to be done. It is an option and one that FEMA often dictates. It should be prepared for.
AS, you live in Alaska...you've already "bugged-out!" :nod: :2:

Alaskan Survivalist
01-22-2011, 09:42 PM
Millers Reach is not to far from here where FEMA forced an evacuation due to forest fire and then let peoples houses burn down. There was one instance I know of that one guy left his place with waterpumps raining all over his place. Emergency services disconected his pump to use elsewhere and let his house burn down. That guy was prepared to stay and did not want to evacuate but had no choice.

Rick
01-22-2011, 10:11 PM
FEMA did that? They usually don't even get involved until the President signs a Disaster Declaration and that's after the state petitions the feds.

Alaskan Survivalist
01-22-2011, 10:52 PM
FEMA did that? They usually don't even get involved until the President signs a Disaster Declaration and that's after the state petitions the feds.

He did sign off on it but just so you know. http://www.ak-prepared.com/plans/mitigation/mrfire.htm

crashdive123
01-22-2011, 11:09 PM
AS - If you were there, you may have knowledge that is not in the reporting. It looks like from the link that you provided that FEMA rendered financial aid following the disaster. In other stories regarding the fire I could find no reference were FEMA evacuated anybody. Local fire departments and forestry officials yes. FEMA no. In fact, disaster wasn't declared at the federal level until four days after the fire started. Here's a few I looked at.

http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/wildland-fire-products/articles/105746-Alaska-residents-recall-reach-of-1996-blaze-states-most-destructive-wildfire-ever/

http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2003/05/02/news/news1.txt

http://www.fema.gov/news/event.fema?id=693

Alaskan Survivalist
01-22-2011, 11:26 PM
There were actually two evacuations. The first was Millers reach road and then expanded to Big lake area. I never read anything about it and only looked that link up for Rick. Most of what I know was just what people were saying but materials were being donated to rebuild and the company I worked for volunteered its trucks and we drivers volunteered our time to deliver the trailers so I was getting some stories first hand.

Winter
01-23-2011, 12:14 AM
Millers Reach is not to far from here where FEMA forced an evacuation due to forest fire and then let peoples houses burn down. There was one instance I know of that one guy left his place with waterpumps raining all over his place. Emergency services disconected his pump to use elsewhere and let his house burn down. That guy was prepared to stay and did not want to evacuate but had no choice.

Grrrr, Forced evacuation is un-American.
Here's the must read.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Rick
01-23-2011, 06:23 AM
Oh come on, Winter. Folks are evacuated all the time from wild fires. Ask the folks in California. People would sit in their homes and simply burn up with the house because they either don't think the threat is credible or figure it won't happen to them.

Alaskan Survivalist
01-23-2011, 10:57 AM
Oh come on, Winter. Folks are evacuated all the time from wild fires. Ask the folks in California. People would sit in their homes and simply burn up with the house because they either don't think the threat is credible or figure it won't happen to them.

Some can fight fires and floods themselves with more conviction since it's thier home. As for the ones that can't and chose to stay they should die otherwise by protecting them from themselves the dumb suckers live to breed and become politicians.

Winter
01-23-2011, 12:15 PM
Rick, that is not the point at all. A free man should be allowed to make that choice.

BENESSE
01-23-2011, 12:18 PM
I agree. If someone wanted to commit suicide they should have that right.

Rick
01-23-2011, 12:36 PM
Well, you all seem to forget that when push comes to shove they will be yelling for help then some one will have to risk their life to try and save them. Or......some will say where's AS? I haven't seen him and then folks will head up to his place to try and save him. Finally, if that happened and 10 folks died because they stayed behind everyone of you would be yelling that the government failed. They should have MADE those people leave. It's Katrina all over again.

I don't care how much conviction you have you will not stop a wild fire. Not with the equipment you have at your home.

It's just a house. Houses can be replaced. People can't. But if ya'll want to stay behind I'll let you. Then you can all be just like old Harry Truman when Mt. St. Helens burped.

BENESSE
01-23-2011, 01:10 PM
But if ya'll want to stay behind I'll let you. Then you can all be just like old Harry Truman when Mt. St. Helens burped.

I definitely wouldn't stay behind and consider it foolhardy. But if someone's crazy enough to do it, it's their choice. And btw, if they did it against advice to evacuate, then they ought suffer the consequences. No resources wasted on them at the last moment, human or otherwise. People should have a right to be stupid if it doesn't affect anyone else but them, and them alone. (their children, a different story left for another debate)

crashdive123
01-23-2011, 01:13 PM
I definitely wouldn't stay behind and consider it foolhardy. But if someone's crazy enough to do it, it's their choice. And btw, if they did it against advice to evacuate, then they ought suffer the consequences. No resources wasted on them at the last moment, human or otherwise. People should have a right to be stupid if it doesn't affect anyone else but them, and them alone. (their children, a different story left for another debate)

You and I agree on that.

crashdive123
01-23-2011, 01:17 PM
I do not remember where it happened (Florida, Texas, or elsewhere?) but during a mandatory evacuation due to an approaching Cat 4 hurricane, police where going door to door to make sure residents knew about the evacuation and to see if they needed assistance. If they needed help, they received it. They did not force people to leave their homes. What they did do however was have those that said they were staying sign a form saying that they understood that help would not be on the way. They also had them fill out a next of kin notification card. Some stayed, but the card did the trick in convincing most to leave.

BENESSE
01-23-2011, 01:20 PM
That was more than reasonable, C.

mamaw
02-10-2011, 02:38 PM
So much to learn and a short amont of time to do it in. Glad I found this place.

crashdive123
02-10-2011, 10:48 PM
Glad you found this place too. Let me help you find the Introduction section. http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?14-Introductions

MidWestMat
02-11-2011, 12:18 PM
In my situation, most scenarios would result in B/I. There would be no valid reason for mandatory evacuations other than as an exercise in social disruption and so I would have to avoid said Representatives and fail to comply. I do however keep 72 hour bags for all, and have a cache at a midpoint to a B/O locaton. But the realities of trying to move a group of civilians hundreds of miles through potentially hostile territory does not appeal to me in the least and is a last resort option.

The very discussion on this topic highlights the difficulties in group dynamics that would arise in these situations, and this among a group of people who are largely more mature and experienced. We all know that the longer a situation lasts, the more important a group wll become to long term viability, even if that group is just a few neighbors who help look after each others interests. I believe that is why it is so important to get to know your neighbors, local crafters, mechanics, tradesmen etc. before any situation ever occurs. The knowledge of whom to avoid, and with whom you may find common cause could well be more far valuable than an extra 1,000 rnds of 7.62.

One thing that bothers me about these discussions is how quickly some seem ready to strip individuals of their God given Rights for the 'good of the group'. Just because I join a group does not mean all that I possess becomes communal property! It gives no leader the right to seize my knife be it $100 or $1! It does mean that I will apply my labors and resources to the success of the group for that becomes my success, it does mean that I will follow the leadership of the group so long as it is just and competent leadership. If I found the group to not be of that type I would leave, and what I brought would leave with me, and if the group prevented that there would likely be blood. (probably mostly mine for that is how these things go)

So choose wisely with whom you become associated! ;)

Thaddius Bickerton
03-24-2012, 10:56 AM
So long as that "rules upheld with force" includes the option of taking my stuff and leaving if I don't agree.

I do not belong to anyone, will not live my life for the sake of another against my will nor will I ask another to live their life for mine.

If a group is already deterorating into a dictatorship, then no thank you , not the place I want to live.

Any group not based on the concept of ownership of ones own life, property and the fruit of ones labors is not for me.

The only moral way for individuals to interact is by mutual agreement to mutual benefit without the use of fear force or fraud.

In other words I I have a knife someone else wants to use, then borrow, rent, or buy it, but no you will only take it by killing me which is evil.

Group property is communism, and certainly not for me or any free man.

Dolphin
01-08-2013, 01:03 PM
If you want security you will have to give up rights unless you want to protect yourself on your own, then there is no need for that in a group

timjones922
08-20-2013, 01:13 PM
This kind of gives all the impression of one's self.

Here goes.

I have always been the loner, don't depend on anyone. That way, you don't get let down. I can function very well in a team, if the team members all have the same common goal, and they take is seriously.

I am an alpha male.

Like wareagle, people give me a wide berth as I am not a friendly looking guy. Well, I'm just not friendly. No tats just the 100 yard stare.

I am known as the guy that gets the job done. So, that is what I would do. You need a ditch, I'll get it made, you need wood, done. You stand over me and try to give me orders with your hands in your pocket, we gonna have a little talk.

I don't play the little horseplay games that some young men play. If I'm going to use my strength, it's serious.

I am also a warrior as volwest and wareagle are. No better, no worse.

If ryaninmaine shows up with his 5 brothers and 5 brothers in law, I will be packing my bags. Too many family members, ya piss one off and the whole clan comes looking for you. Tensions are going to be high and control is paramount.

So, if you wanted me in the group, I'd come in. If you did not, I'd go on my way down the trail.

Very well said FVR. We would likely get along just fine. I am not afraid of work in any way shape or form. People generally don't mess with me either.

Buckshot
01-16-2014, 10:29 AM
I've done law and security when I was in the Army, I've worked as a tracker, and use to split firewood with mauls, wedges and torpedoes. I've done a lot of cooking for myself, another words I guess I qualify as a pain in the back britches pocket. I have even taken care of horses and calves. I miss those days.

diddap
08-14-2014, 11:17 PM
I"ve had many scores of people sat that they want to hook up with me. I always reply" I understand that, now explain why I should want to hook up with you?". :-) Very few have any sort of answer, much less one that interests me in them.

Adventure Wolf
11-23-2014, 12:24 AM
Good link, good post. Thanks for sharing.

Sarge47
01-10-2015, 09:19 PM
So here's the skinny; I just posted a new blog on bugging out and referenced the 1st post on this thread that WE posted way back in 2007. Click on the link....:cool2:

outdoorfan
05-27-2017, 12:51 PM
Great resource. Thanks again

kyratshooter
05-27-2017, 04:50 PM
Great resource. Thanks again

You will have to say a little prayer in order to thank Sarge, he passed away more than a year ago.

No matter how much gear you have, no matter how many skills you know, we all wind up in the same place eventually.