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Vika
06-16-2008, 08:16 AM
Level 3 Preparedness - Security

I start this section by acknowledging that for many of us it is very hard to think of our neighbors wanting to seriously harm us. It is my clear knowing and belief that we are all brothers and sisters, and we are all children of the one God. I am against the death penalty. I believe that it is wrong to make war, or attack another country or person because of what you fear they MAY do. I am a pacifist, and I believe strongly in the basic perfection and goodness of all people.

However, there are times when our brothers and sisters will go out of their minds as a result of pathology, abuse, or out of fear, desperation, or panic. A some of our brothers are violent criminals. When the day comes (if it does) when all is secure and familiar to our unprepared and dependent population collapses, the affect on many people will be very ugly. When people, or their children, are starving or cold and homeless, even our brothers they may attack us with intent of serious harm.

On the contrary, there are many examples of people in desperate times that have reacted with nobility and self-sacrifice. In this country, times of natural disaster, like floods and hurricanes and wild fires, have brought out the best people, when they have worked hard together to help each other through difficult and dangerous times. It is possible to argue that any likely future social collapse in this country will be a time that will bring out the best of our citizenry. There are also times when refuge populations have been calm and compliant.

So, will any future social or economic collapse bring out the best in the people of this country, or the worst? Will we share resources and pull together? Or will it be attack and ugliness?

My internal knowing about this is that the future time of trouble, for which many readers of this forum prepare, will lean towards ugliness and danger. There are two realities that support my belief. First, the populace of the United States is physically and psychologically unprepared for any kind of significant socio-economic collapse. Most of us have come to think of an uninterrupted supply of water, electricity, and groceries as a right of birth. Most have never been hungry for more than a few hours. A few days or a week without electricity, and few days or a week after grocery store shelves empty, especially with no news of rapid rescue, is something many will find impossible to deal with. This will bring panic, and panicked people are dangerous people.

Secondly, we are an armed populace. There are plenty of guns around. Desperate people might use them to forcefully take what they need to survive, or to be comfortable. But probably your next-door neighbor will not pose the real threat. The threat will probably come from the ones who live across town and that are already part of gangs, or already engage in criminal activity. An analogous situation might be the armed war lords of some nations of sub-Saharan Africa who have organized murderous militias to fill the power vacuum left by an impotent and bankrupt governments.

The level of danger will be greatly dependent upon the degree to which government collapses. A simple economic depression is not likely to cause the collapse of government authority and control. The level of future danger for which you choose to prepare, therefore, is probably closely tied to your vision or expectation regarding the likelihood of various futures.

So, how to prepare? It is my belief that in every possible future scenario, your very best security preparation is to be as invisible as possible. Your ideal country home will be remote, and hidden from people traveling main roadways. Hopefully your driveway is long, narrow and winding lane through the forest. Or your home is in a remote valley and near the end of a long dead end road. In some way, your ideal country home will be sited to render it as invisible as possible to the casual passerby, or to the marauding gang searching to steal food and gasoline.

Another way to protect your invisibility is to not speak with others about your disaster preparedness. Keep your preparations a secret. Do not even speak of them to your extended family members, unless those family members are actively participating with preparations. When the time comes, when they are finally feeling the danger and believing in the wisdom of your preparations, then you can gather them to you, with strict instructions to tell no one where they are going.

There are a few other small ways to protect your invisibility. Have blackout curtains prepared for all of your windows, so that the light from your candles, or kerosene lamps, or battery powered lights will not be visible at night. If you will be relying partially on a generator to charge batteries, consider a way to muffle the noise from a running generator. If you will be burning wood in a fireplace, be cognizant of the smoke from your chimney. Burn a hot fire to minimize smoke, or make a fire only after dark.

To further protect your invisibility don’t let yourself be known as a well-healed man. Even if you are not starving and desperate, act as if you are. Take steps to look as if you are as hungry and desperate as everyone else. Certainly don’t flaunt your wealth of food and fuel.

The question of arming yourself and being prepared to defend your family with force, is one that only your can answer. It is my strong value that the only circumstance in which it is acceptable to harm (or to kill) another person is when that is the only way to defend self, or another innocent person, against serious harm. I don’t have any moral objection to being prepared to use force to defend my family, but we need to be realistic about the threat. You might face a large marauding gang that can overpower almost any defensive preparations that a small group can make. If you are one person, or two, or a married couple plus children, it is easy to imagine scenarioes in which you will not be able to depend on rifle or two, and shotgun and a few handguns for security. It is easy to envision a scenario in which your little family group will be quickly overpowered by a large criminal gang, who by that time will have done the same thing to many small family groups. They will have killed before to take whatever they want, and they won't hesitate to do so again. This is one strong argument for making preparations that involve a larger group, or several families; that is you can have a meaningful defensive force in numbers. But if you are a small family group, your invisibility is even more vital. The details of how best to arm your family group, whether large or small is addressed in many threads on many forums.

How long will the threats last? Of course your vision of the likely futures are key to answering that question, but if we are preparing for a year or more without electricity, and without a functioning economy, the level of danger will change over time. The most dangerous period in any collapse will be the period of time between a week or two after the collapse of social order, and the time when the available supply of gasoline and diesel fuel are used up. As long as marauding gangs have access to stolen fuel to power stolen vehicles, you will be most vulnerable to them searching you out. It might take a month or two for all easy fuel sources to be found and consumed. Once the gasoline is gone, and once gangs are less mobile, the intensity of the threat will diminish somewhat. Always be vigilant, but be most vigilant in the first few weeks and months.

Hopefully these terrible scenarios will never come to pass. However, I share these ideas with you because there is a lot of superficiality to the preparedness planning that some sources encourage us to make. It won’t do much good to stockpile a year supply of food of someone comes along in the third week and takes it all from you and your family. And there are possible scenarios in which one can see significant chance of that very thing happening.

Take care.

Beo
06-16-2008, 08:58 AM
So Vika, what should we do if someone kills someone else when robbing them? Or when someone kills someone just because they walked down the wrong street? Or when they do it just to do it? Or some nut claims he is the Jesus and kills a bunch of sheeple that followed him? This happens and the death penalty is what that is for. It is to show the rest of the Johnny Butterbutts that taking a life for no reason is wrong and this is the result, you get the death penalty. That being said the only thing wrong with the death penalty is that it takes to long to get it done and the scum bags have way to many apeals. A bullet for a S&W .40 cal is 38 cents and its cheaper than straping them down to get the job done. And peace is not won through superior firepower, its won by good shot placement.

Ole WV Coot
06-16-2008, 09:09 AM
Well to put it bluntly we don't agree on anything but security. I believe in capitol punishment and worse for child molesters. It will take one hell of a big gang to overpower my home. Before I get wound up let me just say I could care less if a criminal or pervert has a screw loose, if caught by yours truly I would pop a cap in a heartbeat, some probably slower if I could. I don't know of a cure for a rabid animal but to remove the threat.

Beo
06-16-2008, 09:10 AM
Also the jails are overcrowded, the penitentiarys are over crowded, and we are running out of places to stick the hard core criminals along with those that offend on a lesser basis, so what do you think we should do with them?
The "Big Bang" theroy in my opinion is the sound of my gun going off on one of these puke sacks.

Rick
06-16-2008, 09:14 AM
I suppose you have to believe in the collapse to justify the rest of it. I don't so I won't.

Beo
06-16-2008, 09:23 AM
I don't see us or the world collapsing any time soon, hard times.. sure we always have them, but a total collapse, nope.

BraggSurvivor
06-16-2008, 09:41 AM
Good write up Vika.

Riverrat
06-16-2008, 09:54 AM
Couple of things that are differant then what I belive, but good write up.

Arkansas_Ranger
06-16-2008, 02:38 PM
Well, in law enforcement, a threat of "death or serious physical injury" is when it's justifiable to use "lethal force." It's the same thing as kill or be killed. So in any situation such as Vika's description I just leave it at my will to survive.

crashdive123
06-16-2008, 08:01 PM
Vika - I really have enjoyed reading what you have posted so far on levels of preparedness. So far, I agree least with this one. I appreciate and respect your approach...I just disagree with it.

Rick
06-16-2008, 08:04 PM
The thing I think everyone will agree on is that you've put a good deal of thought into your plan. I really doesn't matter if I agree with your plan or not. It's like Crash's knife. If your plan works for you then it works for me. All of us could stand to revisit our plan and to determine, in advance, what we need/want to do if bad times roll around.

vanguard1
06-16-2008, 10:10 PM
I often think of the former Soviet Union - that ol' superpower that was....then wasn't and the starving people that were in the bread lines. If you need a modern day example of a collapse - look at that.

Not to say that it WILL happen in the continental U.S., but to dismiss the notion completely is foolish IMHO.

Thanks Vika, I would have never thought of the invisibility aspect and the various details you covered. Thank you very much for posting this series of topics - quite useful and informative.....great info to keep in mind when planning.

Ridge Wolf
06-17-2008, 12:23 AM
Good presentation of scenarios of what might happen in a given situation. That reads like it was well researched. Is this post one of a series you're doing? If so, we might put it on audio and continually play it outside the gates of Spudville. Just being sarcastic of Spudville.:rolleyes: I'll bet that you had thought of other scenarios, possibilities and probabilities though. It is hard to calculate what the two legged animal will do. I agree to be invisible and hush hush. Here, we can talk about things such as this with a degree of anonimity but I for one am still cautious of what I say on here. Good post. :D

catfish10101
06-17-2008, 05:11 AM
I'm your hucklebery.
You're no daisy, youre no daisy at all.

After Hurricane Katrina, I made it a point to get home ASAP. Being a volunteer fireman made it easier for me to get through the road blocks before everyone else. I live about 25 miles southwest of New Orleans. My home was fine, but we were without electricity, grocery stores, and gas stations for a little while. We slept in a camper because the generator we had would run the air conditioner in it and that made life much better. Food was provided by the government (mre's) daily, but I also got some from my uncle who was in charge of a food distribution drive from the company he was working for. My landlord actually gave me a full tank of propanr to cook on my BBQ grill. My neighbor had made a run for gasoline and gave me about $35.00 worth for my generator. He knew that I would be watching his house as well as my own at night. The first night back, there was a truck driving around looking for generators that were easy pickings, and stealing them. I , as many others did, stayed up all night by lantern light on the front porch with my guns at hand (not hiding, instead, showing that I was not "easy pickings"). The second night, the truck returned. The people in my community did not sit and wait. They banded together and took up arms, and went sweeping the streets for these theives. Seeing about 30 people walking the streets with guns, someone called the police fearing these were thieves giong around robbing people. The police showed up and drew down on them only to realize that they were citizens trying to protect their community (the sherriff actually made an article in the paper urging peaople to calm down, citing this incident. LOL). We had been told that it would be up to a month before we got electricity back, but some crooks actually shot at, and tried to rob to work crews on the other end of the parish, so they decided to come to our end and start repairs where they felt safer. Seeing the repair trucks working their way down the road, just about every vechicle passing them offered them food, ice, drinks, whatever they needed. Our electricity was back in a week, and the cable company was right behind them, fixing the cable tv, phones, and internet. This community stuck together to protect themselves, help each other, and show appriciation for the workwers repairing the infastructure. That is how we made it through our hurricane aftermath. I so agree that if you can, get out of sight, but if you can't, BE ARMED AND BAND TOGETHER WITH THE NEIGHBORS TO PROTECT YOUR ENTIRE COMMUNITY!! WHEN WORD GOT OUT THAT THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO MESS WITH, THERE WERE NO MORE PROBLEMS. LOL.
In an economical callapse, you need to have a plan. If you have a mortgage on your home, you may not be able to keep it. Making money to pay bills is not going to be easy. If I lose my home, I will have to move in with my Grandfather who lives nearby and has his home paid for. Next, is food. I live near a bayou that will provide fish, ducks, and an abundance of other wildlife to feed the family. If it comes down to it, there is plenty of wood for fires to cook on around here. The most important thing will be to protect your bounty. Have someone at home that is armed and make it known. Also, while on the water, be armed and let it be known. The unarmed will be the easiest target and will be the first to be robbed and possably killed for what they have. You may have to defend what you have so be ready to do so.

P.S. I do believe in the death penalty, but the waiting peroid does not bother me too much because our judicial system is not perfect and I believe that a person sentenced to death should be given sufficent oppertunity to prove that he was wrongfully convicted. After death, it does not make much difference if they say, ooops, we were wrong.

Pict
06-17-2008, 07:25 AM
It is my contention that the primary motivation for people to riot, loot,and engage in violence to get what they want isn't the breakdown of systems of distribution but more the breakdown of law enforcement. Here in Brazil the worst disaster we face is a police strike. The police simply walk off the job and all those elements in society that would kill you for pocket change have nothing to fear. People riot because rioting is fun and you get free stuff, it really is that simple. When it ceases to be fun people go home and trade their loot.

Under a total colapse of society a single isolated armed family group stands little chance if bullets are flying. On the other hand a community made up of armed family units working together under competent leadership and with a system of communications starts looking like law and order real quick. Survival under the total collapse of society is a community wide effort. Start getting to know your neighbors. Mac

Rick
06-17-2008, 07:48 AM
@ vanguard - Remember, though, there were bread lines and empty store shelves in the U.S.S.R. long before the collapse.

@ catfish - Every storm I ever worked brought people out of their houses with iced tea, water, lemonade, etc. It's the "community" in people. On one storm job, end of the day, temps were over 100F we finished putting service be up for a guy around 8:00 p.m. He told us to come around to the back of his house. He had two cases of beer iced down and told us the pool was ours. You have no idea how good that felt!

@ Mac - Right on the money, as usual. I've never understood, though, why some folks were stealing televisions and radios in the aftermath of Katrina.:D

Ole WV Coot
06-17-2008, 09:08 AM
@ catfish - Every storm I ever worked brought people out of their houses with iced tea, water, lemonade, etc. It's the "community" in people. On one storm job, end of the day, temps were over 100F we finished putting service be up for a guy around 8:00 p.m. He told us to come around to the back of his house. He had two cases of beer iced down and told us the pool was ours. You have no idea how good that felt!


You got that right. Storm work brings out the best and worst in people. Local residents are great but the gangs stealing anything not nailed down were always around. They didn't bother us, because we were usually muddy, harry looking animals and they figured anyone that could hook a pole with an extra 100lbs on his chest wasn't to be messed with. The locals were sometimes overly helpful, didn't make demands and were grateful for food and especially water & ice. Never made it to a job with any ice or water, gave it all away and residents maintained their dignity. I can't say enough about how grateful most people were. It really gave you a good feeling to help most people.:)

kx250kev
06-30-2008, 12:09 AM
Vika, great post. Our everyday dependence on electricity, groceries and gasoline is our greatest weakness. I can only hope if the SHTF, that these supplies are only briefly interupted.

Sam Reeves
06-30-2008, 12:29 AM
One word.

DEMOGRAPHICS

;)

MonsterMash
07-03-2008, 08:06 AM
It is my contention that the primary motivation for people to riot, loot,and engage in violence to get what they want isn't the breakdown of systems of distribution but more the breakdown of law enforcement. Here in Brazil the worst disaster we face is a police strike. The police simply walk off the job and all those elements in society that would kill you for pocket change have nothing to fear. People riot because rioting is fun and you get free stuff, it really is that simple. When it ceases to be fun people go home and trade their loot.

A society can only be governed if it want to be governed. This is an excellent point. Let me give ya'll some true statistics:

For a city, town, county etc to set up a law enforcement agency, the feds say you have to have one officer for every X thousand people. I'm thinking at least 5k if I remember correctly. So, lets say Anywhere, USA has 4 officers working in a town of 20K. If things go south, their best bet is to pull out and go take care of their own family. Split up the supplies they have at the station and haul a$$. They CAN'T stand against those numbers. It would be suicide.

And an above poster mentioned street gangs becoming a problem. Become good with a scoped rifle and that won't be a problem. Gang members are looking for the quick score and the easy way. Plus, they believe that there is safety in numbers. You snipe the leader, cut the head off, the rest will die. They won't long stand against determined defenders because you have made it hard for them. On top of that, if you find yourself in that situation, and the opportunity presents itself.........gutshoot one or two. Let their buddies listen to them scream. Its no longer fun when the prey becomes the predator. Gangbangers are fueled by fear and intimidation. If you don't fear them and can't be intimidated by them, then they look for easier pickings like I discussed earlier.

Just my .02 worth.

Canadian-guerilla
07-03-2008, 10:29 AM
It is my belief that in every possible future scenario, your very best security preparation is to be as invisible as possible.

this has always been my thinking/plan from the get-go if/when TSHTF
out of sight, out of mind


Well It will take one hell of a big gang to overpower my home.

if/when TSHTF for whatever reason, and severe food shortages have hit north america four weeks ago
if a gang/mob thinks someone has a good supply of food inside their house
they may take the time and effort to try and crack the defenses (if any)
and may also have the mentality that if they (mob) can't have the supplies inside, then no one gets them, including the homeowner
does the homeowner have enough guns/people inside to cover the house 360'
if this mob storms the house and/or throws a firebomb threw 2 or more windows ?

it has always baffled me as to why (city)people would want to entrench themselves inside a house
while the bad guys have a free run outside and around said house looking for weaknesses
and while rural homes may have more " open space " for defensive purposes
the thinking is still the same
hungry city folk may think country folk have extra food put away

defense thru mobility

Ole WV Coot
07-03-2008, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by Ole WV Coot View Post
Well It will take one hell of a big gang to overpower my home.
if/when TSHTF for whatever reason, and severe food shortages have hit north america four weeks ago
if a gang/mob thinks someone has a good supply of food inside their house
they may take the time and effort to try and crack the defenses (if any)
and may also have the mentality that if they (mob) can't have the supplies inside, then no one gets them, including the homeowner
does the homeowner have enough guns/people inside to cover the house 360'
if this mob storms the house and/or throws a firebomb threw 2 or more windows ?

it has always baffled me as to why (city)people would want to entrench themselves inside a house
while the bad guys have a free run outside and around said house looking for weaknesses
and while rural homes may have more " open space " for defensive purposes
the thinking is still the same
hungry city folk may think country folk have extra food put away



Between me and my neighbors it would take a long fuse and a 300yd arm to throw something close to any house. We don't have any men without combat experience and I wouldn't mention anything about food or defenses. It would take a trained, organized, determined company to manage. Houses are brick metal roofs and cute little doggies. Mob mentality as such wouldn't organize and have an organized plan. A mob might make a first rush, even two but would quickly fall apart and go onto easier targets. We are very aware now of anyone that don't belong. One way in and out by road with 300 plus acres behind, 4 miles to the closest dirt road if they could find it. Nope, I think we could hold out a long long time. Each home has at least 2 ATVs and a 4X4 plus "goodies" that let us sleep at night.:eek:

Canadian-guerilla
07-03-2008, 12:19 PM
but there's a big difference between you and your neighbours
who may be aware of a possible SHTF coming

and a tv watching " bread & circuses " homeowner
who may not even care about national/world current evernts

if someone thinks everything is hunky-dory, why bother planning for the future ?

ryaninmichigan
07-03-2008, 12:51 PM
I agree most mobs will lack any amount of organization to attack someone dug in with a plan. Both my home and cabin are easily defendable. I would of course prefer the cabin, but could defend either. The thing about the cabin is first you would need to know it there to begin with. I have never had a visitor come up with me that I did not have to meet in town and have them follow me out. Mobs will not likely attack such a place. I would be more afraid of a hand full of trained men than I would an angry mob. I can see a mob coming. 4 trained, well armed guys with a plan. Not so much.

Ole WV Coot
07-03-2008, 06:01 PM
I agree most mobs will lack any amount of organization to attack someone dug in with a plan. Both my home and cabin are easily defendable. I would of course prefer the cabin, but could defend either. The thing about the cabin is first you would need to know it there to begin with. I have never had a visitor come up with me that I did not have to meet in town and have them follow me out. Mobs will not likely attack such a place. I would be more afraid of a hand full of trained men than I would an angry mob. I can see a mob coming. 4 trained, well armed guys with a plan. Not so much.

I completely agree with you. I don't plan, nor do my neighbors and families that have known each other well over 30yrs of spelling out much of anything about each other. If you have good men that will back each other up and know what they are doing it works for us. Just an example, you can go to any carryout in my area or grocery and ask where I live or anything about me and you will get the "I never heard of him, he don't live around here" answer followed by a call to my home with your name if you give it, and you will be asked, type of vehicle, how many with you and what you want. A well trained squad might get to a house, but remember we have people that learned in the jungle and played in the sand. Oldest I would be afraid of played in the snow in Korea and still loves his M-1.;)

Rick
07-03-2008, 06:05 PM
First, you have to believe the SHTF. I don't. You might have to dig in for any number of reasons such as winter blizzard or summer heat wave but gloom and doom are the last things I'm worried about.

Ole WV Coot
07-04-2008, 10:07 AM
It isn't all gloom and doom for us it's the old forgotten neighbor helping neighbor idea that has changed to the ME attitude. Anything and I mean anything that someone needs help with he's got it. They usually don't have to ask. My closest neighbor would call me then 911 if her husband was working out of town. We stay to ourselves but we are always available. I am retired but I will work for free, and if someone that doesn't know me well offers to pay I just tell them they can't afford me.

Rick
07-04-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm in the same camp you are, Coot. I just meant I don't think there will be organized gangs of mongrels roaming the streets under the direction of some degenerate, well organized leader. That's made for TV stuff. Tornadoes and other storms bring out neighbor helping neighbor and that's what it will be most of the time. There will be idiots but I doubt they survive for very long.

trax
07-08-2008, 02:50 PM
I'm in the same camp you are, Coot.

Now you've got something to worry about, Rick's in your camp:eek:

Rick
07-08-2008, 03:02 PM
My and Coot. We're just like this, I tell ya! Yea! We are!

http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/image/A7485/74851/300_74851.gif

rebel
07-09-2008, 09:13 AM
Tactically, always have a prepared secondary position.

A neighborhood could also construct road blocks. Such as, trees across the road. The thieves would be walking in and not driving. Channel your prey with both concealed and unconcealed devises. Then have fun as they try to leave.