Barrel length and other misc. firearm questions...

[Teotwawki]

Now for something completely different...

What determines barrel length on a long gun?

I know about rifling but there were long guns way before the advent (around the time of the Civil War I think) of rifling.

Even without the rifling, does a long barrel improve accuracy? Or is there some other factor / reason for it?

Also - what does sawing off the barrel of a shotgun do? Is that illegal? Why?

Just curious.

[Beowulf65]

Read my blogs on guns and shooting.

[Teotwawki]

I'm looking... searched on guns... see several from you but none that obviously address the questions. Browsing through your blogs...

[Beowulf65]

Rifling refers to helix-shaped pattern of grooves and lands that have been formed into the barrel of a firearm. It is the means by which a firearm imparts a spin to a projectile around its long axis, to gyroscopically stabilize it to improve accuracy and stability.
Twist rate
For best performance, the barrel should have a twist rate sufficient to stabilize any bullet that it would reasonably be expected to fire, but not significantly more. Large diameter bullets provide more stability, as the larger radius provides more gyroscopic inertia, while long bullets are harder to stabilize, as they tend to be very backheavy and the aerodynamic pressures have a longer "lever" to act on. The slowest twist rates are found in muzzleloading firearms meant to fire a round ball; these will have twist rates as low as 1 in 60 inches (1,500 mm), or slightly longer, although for a typical multi-purpose muzzleloader rifle, a twist rate of 1 in 48 inches (1,200 mm) is very common. The M16A2 rifle, which is designed to fire the SS109 bullet, has a 1 in 7-inch (180 mm) twist. Civilian AR-15 rifles are commonly found with 1 in 12 inches (300 mm) for older rifles and 1 in 9 inches (230 mm) for most newer rifles, although some are made with 1 in 7 inches (180 mm) twist rates, the same as used for the M16. Rifles, which generally fire longer, smaller diameter bullets, will in general have higher twist rates than handguns, which fire shorter, larger diameter bullets.

[Beowulf65]

The term Long Rifle (or alternately Pennsylvania or "Kentucky" Rifle) refers to a type of rifle used in early America by both military and civilians. It is characterized by an unusually long barrel, sometimes over four feet in length, which is felt to be in large part a unique development of American rifles, and is almost never seen in European rifles of the period.
The longrifle developed on the American frontier in the period beginning in the 1740s, and continued its development technically and artistically until it passed out of fashion in the mid to late 19th century. It is interesting to note, however, that strong pockets of longrifle use and manufacture continued in the Appalachian Mountains of Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, and North Carolina, well into the 20th century, as a practical and efficient firearm for these still quite rural segments of the nation. Longrifles could be made entirely by hand, in a frontier setting, which could not be said of modern breechloaders such as the Winchester model 1885 single shot rifle.
Although experts argue the fine points of origin and lineage, it is accepted that the longrifle was the product of German gunsmiths who immigrated to new settlements in Pennsylvania and Virginia as early as the 1740s. Initially the weapon of choice on the frontier was the smooth bore musket or trade gun, built in the thousands in factories in England and France and shipped to the Colonies for purchase. But gradually a group of solitary frontiersmen, Indian fighters, and professional market hunters began using more and more rifles due to their longer effective range. While the smooth bore musket had an effective range of less than 100 yards, a good rifleman could hit a man size target out to three hundred yards or more. There was a price for this accuracy, however. The long rifle required a full minute to load, longer than a musket.
Artistically, the longrifle is known for its often ornate decoration. The decorative arts of furniture making, painting, silver smithing, gunsmithing, etc. all took their style cues from the prevailing trends of the day, and as in most things the fashion was set in Paris. Baroque and later rococo motifs found their way into all the decorative arts, and can be seen in the acanthus leaf scroll work so common on 18th century furniture and silver. The American frontier, as remote as it was, was not divorced from this trend, and the best American longrifles have art applied to them that is fully the equal of any Philadelphia cabinet or silver shop. Many people also would give their rifles names such as "Killdeer", the rifle of Natty Bumppo from the Leatherstocking Tales.
Originally rather plain, it did not take long for the longrifle to be a source of pride for its owner, and by the 1770s every surface of the rifle could be used as a canvas for excellent applied art. Gunsmiths were recognized as the preeminent craftsmen of their day for they, more than any other tradesmen, had to be expert in all the materials of the time. An accomplished gunsmith had to be a skilled blacksmith, whitesmith, wood carver, brass and silver founder, engraver, and wood finisher. While the European shops of the day had significant specialization of the trades, leading to many separate tradesmen building each rifle, the frontier had no such luxury, and quite often only one gunmaker, aided by perhaps a lone apprentice would make the entire rifle, a process almost unheard of in 18th century trade practice.
The longrifle is said by modern experts to have a range of 80 to 100 yards. This figure is meant for the normal or novice user. A trained, experienced shooter who knows how to take variables into account such as (gunpowder) load, windage, drop, etc. can easily extend the medium range of the long rifle to 400-500 yards. In 1778 at the siege of Boonesborough, Kentucky, one of the officers of the combined British/Shawnee assault force was hiding behind a tree. He stuck his head out from behind the tree and was instantly killed by a ball to the forehead fired by none other than the legendary Daniel Boone. This shot was later confirmed by witnesses on both sides and the distance measured at 250 yards. Hitting a target so precisely at that range would probably make the Kentucky Rifle comparable in total effective (long) range with the British Baker rifle at 700 to 800 yards.

[Teotwawki]

Yeah... I am generally aware of the whys of rifling but why the long barrel particularly before rifling?

Any insights into sawed off shotguns? What does that do?

Long Gun: Guess I was misusing the term to refer generically to any long barreled type gun.

Interesting info...

[Beowulf65]

The long barrel before rifling was for accuracy.
Sawing a barrel off on shotgun gives a larger spread pattern to the shot. But are illegal in all 50 states, the law says the barrel must be 18 inches here in Ohio but differs according to states.
Why so many questions on guns? Just wondering.

[hopeak]

To determine the barrel length of a rifle or a shotgun.......with the action closed (Does not matter what type). stick a rod down the barrel till it stops at.....mark the rod even with the end of the barrel.......use tape, magic marker, whatever. That will be the rifle barrel length. The chamber is part of the barrel.

In short: you can not turn a rifle or a shotgun into a pistol, even if the same company makes the same firearm available as a pistol.

In America rifle or shotgun may not be less than 26" overall length. rifle barrel must be atleast 16" and shotgun barrels must be atleast 18".

However, for a fee of two hundred dollars you can have shorter.

It is easier if you PM me what you want to do.

It is much cheaper to buy an AR-15 pistol than to make one.

[Beowulf65]

Hopeak he's a minor.

[hopeak]

Note: If for any reason, any reason you are in possession of a illegal firearm, for example you misunderstood and cut the barrel to short, PM me there are some cures, or proper disposal methods.

[crashdive123]

Nice disclaimer.

[Beowulf65]

Such as giving it to me :D

[hopeak]

Hopeak he's a minor.

Did not know that......

[Teotwawki]

The long barrel before rifling was for accuracy.
Sawing a barrel off on shotgun gives a larger spread pattern to the shot. But are illegal in all 50 states, the law says the barrel must be 18 inches here in Ohio but differs according to states.
Why so many questions on guns? Just wondering.

Really just curious. Caught a History Channel program on the Civil War and there was a bit on the difference that rifling made in range and accuracy and how many deaths were caused by outmoded warfare methods. You know: march shoulder to shoulder into the opposing forces.

It just got me wondering about the design of "long guns."

Handguns: I know next to nothing about. I've fired a few out target shooting with a friend and that is about the limit of my experience knowledge. Probably should go on my list of things to learn about / get experienced with.

May sound wimpy but I'd want to find a good safety course.

[hopeak]

Minor or not, what I said has to do with the firearm.

[Teotwawki]

Hopeak he's a minor.

OK - sometimes my posts may be a bit juvenile but what makes you think I am a minor?

I don't care to disclose personal info on the Internet but I assure you it has been a while since I was a minor.

I guess if I used a wolf as my avatar it might make me seem older / closer to my real world age.

[hopeak]

[QUOTE=Teotwawki;55217]Really just curious. Caught a History Channel program on the Civil War and there was a bit on the difference that rifling made in range and accuracy and how many deaths were caused by outmoded warfare methods. You know: march shoulder to shoulder into the opposing forces.
It just got me wondering about the design of "long guns."



There are only a few thousand unrelated factors that effect rifle accuracy.

[Beowulf65]

Hopeak: what you said was great, I was just informing because I had forgot we did nothing wrong.

Teot: Nothing wrong with a gun course. They are a good idea for anyone wanting to learn and most courses even have advanced classes to learn more.

[Beowulf65]

Meant no offense, thought you were my bad. The avatar has nothing to do with it.

[Teotwawki]

No offense taken... must have been this:

"Smell Mop Who?"

[Beowulf65]

Really my bad, looking back over a few posts I got you confused with someone else, sorry.

[Ole WV Coot]

As to the 18" shotgun barrel length, it was just plain easier to saw off part of the stock, make a shoulder strap, a belt would do. Cut the barrel down to where you could hide it under your jacket. Just swing the sucker up and fire away. I tried a single shot 12 with a barrel about a foot long taken by a cop in MD during a robbery. It had a mean bark but not much of a bite unless you're close or used anything under #4 shot and then close range only.

[Beowulf65]

No thanks still stinks, and thats the kid in me:D

[Beowulf65]

Hey, Ole WV Coot your real name ain't D.B. Cooper is it:D

[Ole WV Coot]

I forgot to mention about what you said about deaths during the Civil War. You got more deaths from non fatal wounds and lost limbs because of poor sanitation and battlefield doctors. The ball had an open cone at the bottom so it was dump powder, push the ball in without a seal. Rifle goes bang and the ball expands to catch the rifle gruves plus with the powder buildup balls were undersized and when everything went right the ball was so slow it was a deadly germ ridden piece of crap that made the wound turn green. Get hit in the arm or leg, it was amputated. Modern rifles have enough velocity to sterilize the slug so get shot with a modern rifle if you have a choice.

[Ole WV Coot]

Hey, Ole WV Coot your real name ain't D.B. Cooper is it:D

I think I would have had a pair of long undies, O2 little tank and would have asked for a lot more $$$. Bigfoot and his buddies are using the 200 grand that didn't blow away for welcome signs for tourists.:D

[Rick]

Interesting story about rifled barrels in the U.S. Interesting to me anyway. During the Civil War Colonel James Ripley was chief of Army Ordinance. He outfitted the Union troops with the short range "smoothbore" rifles that dated back to the War of 1812. Why? Because the Enfields were made by England and Col. Ripley despised the English. Not to worry. England found a buyer in the Confederate army. They were only too happy to buy them.

In the Battle of Bull Run the Confederacy devasted the Union troops AND suffered about 1/3 less casualties because their Enfields could reach out to 800 yards compared to Col. Ripley's 500 yard "smoothbores".

Even old Ripley couldn't dispute the results.

[crashdive123]

Wonder if that's where Ripley's Believe It Or Not started?

[Teotwawki]

Really my bad, looking back over a few posts I got you confused with someone else, sorry.

No problem - I enjoy your posts and humor quite a bit.

I wish that in person I was mistaken at least once in a while for a minor.

[Teotwawki]

Get hit in the arm or leg, it was amputated.

Saw a med kit at the Civil War museum in Manassas this last Saturday - complete with amputation saw.

I bet the origin of the term "Saw Bone" for a doc.

[crashdive123]

Went to an historic re-enactment at Fort Clinch ( http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/photos/military/clinch/clinch.htm ). Really fascinating. One of the re-enactors played the part of a surgeon. He was actually an Army doc during Vietnam. He had two actual amputation kits from the Civil War period on display. One was a field kit the other was a hospital kit. Difference? The hospital kit had a tool to taper stumps so the prosthetic would fit.

[Rick]

I had read somewhere that the best doctors were the ones that could amputate limbs the fastest because of the lack of anesthetics. 30 second times were common. In one account the doctor was so quick at amputation that he inadvertently amputated an assistant's finger in the process.

[crashdive123]

Guess it didn't pay to have slow reflexes. Another thing that he had on display was a jar full of actual bullets that had been uncovered in the area. The way he explained the difference between those and a moderen round --- get shot in the hand with a .223 round it'll probably go in one side and out the other. Get shot in the hand with one of the large (don't remember the cal) slow moving balls --- chances are that you would hav your arm amputated just below the elbow.

[Rick]

I also saw some show on TV where they were doing some archaeological dig on a lesser known battlefield. They uncovered a rifle ball that had a rectangular flat spot on one side. They pondered over that thing for a long time trying to figure out what had made the flat impression. Then it occurred to them that it had hit someone's front tooth. When they looked closely they could see tiny striations of the front tooth embedded in the led. It obvious didn't stop at the tooth but I just groaned when they announced what had caused it.

[Pict]

As had been pointed out rifling was around long before the Civil war. What made the civil war differnet from the Revolutionary war weapons was the rifled MUSKET. Loading a Revolutionary war era rifle was difficult because the patched round ball had to be hammered down the rifling and fit very tight. The standard weapon at that time was the smoothbore musket that was much quicker to load but far less accurate.

Around the time of the Civil war rifling was added to the musket and a special hollow based conical bullet was loaded. Upon firing the gasses expanded the base of the bullet to engage in the rifling. The guns were fast to load but accurate much further. A company of men with rifled muskets could engage much farther out than ever before in war. It was also at this time that the first breech loading rifles and repeaters were introduced to warfare making it much easier to kill lots of people.

Shotguns tend to spread about 1 inch per yard as a standard rule of thumb. Thus at 15 yards you should expect a spread of about 15 inches, the width of a typical male chest. At 25 yards that spread is about 25 inches or the height of a mans torso more or less.

Pattern of a shotgun refers to the density of the holes it will put in a paper large enough to contain all of the pellets at a given distance. If you take that 25 yard shot above and hit a big piece of brown paper you get a pattern of holes. A good quality shotgun with good quality ammunition will give a very uniform pattern. If it is patchy, with large holes in some areas and pulverized paper in others you are getting a poor pattern. This varies widely between brands of ammo and shotgun, choke etc. So you must pattern your shotgun with the loads you plan to use be it for defense or hunting so you know what your shotgun does.

Spread really depends more on the choke and the quality of ammunition than barrel length alone. People saw off shotguns to make a more handy or concealable weapon, but aside from that they really don't give any advantages and some serious drawbacks. The downside, aside from legal problems, is that they are very loud, hard to control, and difficult to aim effectively. Mac

[Teotwawki]

I don't have any interest in modifying firearms - just curious.

I have deep respect for the lethality of guns and have no interest in making them less safe.

Visited Gettysburg last year - during that battle tons of artillery and an estimated 7 million bullets were fired. We took a guided tour that was fascinating. Our guide said that artifacts are still found - especially after a hard rain. Not too many years ago a skeleton was found in a roadside culvert after a rain.

My son purchased a couple of shell fragments and spent / mangled bullets from a local antiques / artifacts store.

Interesting Gettysburg National Geographic article here... (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/07/0714_030714_gettysburg.html)

[Ole WV Coot]

I don't have any interest in modifying firearms - just curious.

I have deep respect for the lethality of guns and have no interest in making them less safe.

Visited Gettysburg last year - during that battle tons of artillery and an estimated 7 million bullets were fired. We took a guided tour that was fascinating. Our guide said that artifacts are still found - especially after a hard rain. Not too many years ago a skeleton was found in a roadside culvert after a rain.

My son purchased a couple of shell fragments and spent / mangled bullets from a local antiques / artifacts store.

Interesting Gettysburg National Geographic article here... (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/07/0714_030714_gettysburg.html)

I lived between Manassas & Woodbridge for years and one thing I learned was don't bend over to pick up anything on any battlefield. The park rangers frown on picking up anything. If you get caught with a metal detector I think it's l00yrs at Lorton or Life, whichever comes first. I did manage to get a decent collection of "stuff" at both places but found much more in Fredericksburg. Had a friend that had 4 acres next to the battlefield by the horse trenches and did very well there. Best we did was one sword, many balls and some "thingys" we couldn't identify. A big penny or two etc.:rolleyes:

[Teotwawki]

I lived between Manassas & Woodbridge for years and one thing I learned was don't bend over to pick up anything on any battlefield. The park rangers frown on picking up anything. If you get caught with a metal detector I think it's l00yrs at Lorton or Life, whichever comes first. I did manage to get a decent collection of "stuff" at both places but found much more in Fredericksburg. Had a friend that had 4 acres next to the battlefield by the horse trenches and did very well there. Best we did was one sword, many balls and some "thingys" we couldn't identify. A big penny or two etc.:rolleyes:

Yes - they do tend to frown on relic hunters. My boy and I are into metal detecting and would love to find a spot (private property w/permission, non park public property) where it is OK to hunt.