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RangerXanatos
06-11-2008, 11:38 AM
Permethrin is a chemical that is an insect repellant. You spray it onto your clothes and wear out into the weeds and you're supposed to be completely free of all insects. It works as a neurotoxin, killing the insects. But supposedly to have no harm to most mammals and birds. Have any of you ever used permethrin? If so, did it work well and where did you get it? I know this stuff can be found at REI. But there isn't one close to me (The closest REI to me is 3 hours away). Would just about any outdoor store have it in stock?

Thanks for any and all help.
Daniel

tacmedic
06-11-2008, 12:13 PM
I have used permethrin containing pesticides in the farm setting before. They are very effective pesticides and in comparison to other chemicals are relatively harmless. It is however rather toxic to cats and fish. Here is an article on permethrins

http://www.safe2use.com/poisons-pesticides/pesticides/permethrin/cox-report/cox.htm

Mountaintrekker
06-11-2008, 12:21 PM
I've only used this in the garden and greenhouse in the past. It says on our bottle that it is safe for edibles, (but apply no sooner than two weeks before harvest). I'm not sure I would use this stuff on my person though. Or to treat my cloths. They said DDT was safe not too long ago either. :)
Just my thoughts....

klkak
06-11-2008, 12:26 PM
I've used permethrins for many years. It is very effective on ticks. As for mosquito's, it is only marginally effective. Any exposed skin needs to be treated with Deet.

A big caution here. Do not use permethrins on your skin. Your clothes must be dry before putting them on.

Gray Wolf
06-11-2008, 03:55 PM
klkak isn't permethrin used to treat head lice? That would be touching the skin.

crashdive123
06-11-2008, 05:43 PM
Ranger - yes I do. DO NOT USE IT AS AN INSECT REPELLENT!!!!

The insecticide permethrin is a synthetic pyrethroid. It is a widley used pesticide for crops and in general household pest control applications.

Permethrin, like all synthetic pyrethroids, is a neurotoxin. Symptoms include tremors, incoordination, elevated body temperature, increased aggressive behavior, and disruption of learning. Laboratory tests suggest that permethrin is more acutely toxic to children than to adults.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has classified permethrin as a carcinogen because it causes lung tumors in female mice and liver tumors in mice of both sexes. Permethrin inhibits the activity of the immune system in laboratory tests, and also binds to the receptors for a male sex hormone. It causes chromosome aberrations in human and hamster cells.

Permethrin is toxic to honey bees and other beneficial insects, fish, aquatic insects, crayfish, and shrimp. For many species, concentrations of less than one part per billion are lethal. Permethrin causes deformities and other developmental problems in tadpoles, and reduces the number of oxygen-carrying cells in the blood of birds.

Permethrin has been found in streams and rivers throughout the United States. It is also routinely found on produce, particularly spinach, tomatoes, celery, lettuce, and peaches.

A wide variety of insects have developed resistance to permethrin. High levels of resistance have been documented in cockroaches, head lice, and tobacco budworm.

Edit: Sorry Tacmedic - didn't realize that you posted a link that looks like the same info.

Beo
06-11-2008, 05:56 PM
Okay Crashdive, that last sentence has me itching all over.

crashdive123
06-11-2008, 06:05 PM
You think that made you itch? Here's a roach and flea job I bid on about a week ago. All of those little black specs - roaches.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/SpruceSt1217004.jpg

canid
06-11-2008, 09:17 PM
used a permethrin based creme on scabies mites once. it's supposed to be a great tick repellent, in appropriately dilute concentrations.

Pict
06-11-2008, 09:47 PM
OK here's my experience with permethrin.

I did a three day survival exercise here in Brazil at the height of tick/chigger season. As I was leading it (four guys) I had alot to do and wasn't paying attention to myself. I had forgotten to DEET up, I'll stop and do it later, later, you get the idea.

That first night my feet and ankles started to itch, really bad. I had alot of bites. The next day I used DEET but the damage was done. I had about 150 chigger bites on my legs. That night I was itching/burning so bad I didn't sleep a wink, didn't even doze. The next night I slept some but it was really, really bad.

The next time I went out in winter/dry season (in rainy season we have no ticks/chiggers) I used Sawyer Military Clothing dip on my clothes. I suplimmented that with DEET to my legs, belly, wrists/forearms, and neck. I got no bites, as in zero, none, zip. I have also used DURANON spray with similar results.

One of my students on the same trip used DEET very much and got a few bites another used it very casually and got about 30, she was hurting enough to learn her lesson.

I remember at one point I found a large tick and put it on my BDU jacket sleeve. It was walking around happy as could be for a while then it started to get wobbly and disoriented and then curled up and died.

I had no adverse effects. No loss of sexual function, shakes, tremors, or tumors (so far).
The worst I have heard of it came form Jeff Randall (in an internet thread, I don't know him personally) who mentioned that the had a guy break out in hives while using it in wet weather but that it worked great for chiggers and ticks. Apparently some people can be sensitive to it. The concentrations they use are low and the effect lasts a good long time if you store the clothes in a closed plastic bag, it actually bonds with the cotton of your clothing.

I'm coming into chigger season down here and if I get the chance to get out to the bush one more time before I head back to the US I'm going to use it again. If I don't, I know I will have some serious problems with chiggers. Just to give you an idea of how bad it can be I once hacked through a long stretch of tall grass. I took a break and removed my watch because it was bothering me. Under my watch there was a red stain, but it wasn't blood. I scratched at it and it started to slowly spread. It was hundreds of little chiggers that had collected there for some reason. I literally scraped them off with a knife. Mac

dragonjimm
06-11-2008, 10:38 PM
ok now i'm itchy...and canceling the tickets to brazil...sorry:D

RangerXanatos
06-11-2008, 11:03 PM
Well, I found a store in my area that sold Permethrin. So I went ahead and bought a 6 oz. can that should treat two outfits. I'm planning on taking a trip with a couple of my friends to go hiking and I don't know what the little buggers are like where I'm going, so I figure better safe than sorry.

TacMedic and Crash, I've read what you linked/posted and I do appreciate it. This isn't something that I plan on wearing constantly. To illistrate: Where I live, we have nothing but mosquitoes and ticks. To tell you how bad it is, I can go outside and walk around in the "grass" for 5 minutes (literally) and my white socks will be a different color from the amount of ticks that have covered them. Thankfully, I usually only travel on stepping stones and dirt. Anyways, whenever I take a stroll out in our woods, I won't even wear DEET. When I get back, I just take a long shower. But we're planning on hiking for about 3 days, so I figure that I should carry something with me then since showering isn't an option.

Daniel

dragonjimm
06-12-2008, 01:42 AM
we have the same problem here. you can see the ticks crawling like ants in certain woods
not to mention we have those that carry lyme disease. *scritch scritch*

klkak
06-12-2008, 02:56 AM
klkak isn't permethrin used to treat head lice? That would be touching the skin.

I don't know. I do know someone that got very sick after spraying it on his skin. Permanon is a carcinogenic when in liquid form but safe after it dries.

Pict
06-12-2008, 07:40 AM
Daniel,

In the kind of infestation you describe I would give it a try. Your area sounds worse than mine. To me the ticks are no big deal because you can see them. The chiggers are a menace. I´ve been bit just washing my clothes after coming back from the bush as the clothes were infested. Permethrine stops that.

I treat the tops of my socks where they stick up out of my boots, that way with my BDU pants treated and tied down over the tops of the socks the chiggers have to work their way through the socks before they can lodge under the boot and dig in. Treating your lower legs with DEET makes an effective barrier. I use a long sleeve T-shirt most often in the bush and treat that with permethrine as well and leave it tucked in.

In tick season I sleep in the treated clothes as well because I know if I take any ticks or chiggers into my bivy at night they will die. Mac

Rick
06-12-2008, 07:49 AM
Just a note on ticks for those in the U.S. - Deer tick nymphs, the stage most responsible for the spread of Lyme Disease is only 1 to 2 mm in size. Late spring and early summer (now!) is the time most disease is transmitted and you probably won't see them.

I never use permethrin. I use Deet. I don't like to use it but I'll take the few bites in lieu of turning into a deformed tadpole.

Oh, and Crash. I've been in that house!

crashdive123
06-12-2008, 04:48 PM
...and that was the cleanest room in the house!

Pict
06-12-2008, 05:49 PM
Crash,
I take it your an ex-Terminator.

I used to work for Servicemaster doing post fire cleanup. I had a house once with smoke damage in the second and third floors. I was doing a walkthrough with an insurance adjuster showing him the extent of the damage. When I got to the basement/laundry area ther was no more smoke but there was this aweful smell. This house had a second basement that cats had been using like a giant litterbox for years.

We actually made it to the bottom of the steps and the adjuster was bone white. "Clean this, I know there's no fire damage here but humans can't live like this, I'll add this to the claim." We actually had to shovel it out wearing gas masks and biohazard suits. Mac

crashdive123
06-12-2008, 06:28 PM
Crash,
I take it your an ex-Terminator.

I used to work for Servicemaster doing post fire cleanup. I had a house once with smoke damage in the second and third floors. I was doing a walkthrough with an insurance adjuster showing him the extent of the damage. When I got to the basement/laundry area ther was no more smoke but there was this aweful smell. This house had a second basement that cats had been using like a giant litterbox for years.

We actually made it to the bottom of the steps and the adjuster was bone white. "Clean this, I know there's no fire damage here but humans can't live like this, I'll add this to the claim." We actually had to shovel it out wearing gas masks and biohazard suits. Mac

:D One of the worst smelling houses that I was in had 118 cats. I explained to the woman that I'd have to wear a respirator due to allergies (didn't want to offend a potential customer) She said "that's OK, my husband wears one every now and then." Just seems to be something wrong with that.

Pict
06-12-2008, 07:12 PM
I got called in to a smoke job once. I walk up and a 50ish woman answered the door. I asked where the fire started and she points to her aunt in the next room. There's this 70ish woman sitting on the couch smoking a cigarette. Then I noticed that the entire house was amber yellow like we were in an old movie. No kidding that old woman smoked about five packs a day and never left the house. There's no reason to how people survive themselves. Mac

Rick
06-12-2008, 07:21 PM
When you are in peoples homes on a day in/day out basis you get to see some truly bizarre stuff. Coot can back me on this. Everything you can possibly imagine and a whole lot that the imagination can't even conjure up.

I was called out on Christmas Eve because a family's phone would not ring and they were expecting an important call. Fair enough. I got there and everyone in the house was drunk. Mom, Dad, Aunt, cousins, little kids, dogs, cats, everyone. The dog was trying to jump on the couch and kept missing. The cat couldn't stand up without falling over. The kids had puked on themselves. The aunt picked up a butcher knife and told the mom she was going to cut her heart out. At that point I made an exit. Dropped by the local PD and gave them a heads up on the situation. Two squad cars were pulling in the driveway as I drove past on my way home.

The important phone call they were expecting? It was from Santa Claus.

FVR
06-12-2008, 10:19 PM
Crash,

Your pic brought back memories. I use to be an exterminator in Orange co. California, many, many, many years ago.

We used permethrin, but for an agitant to get the critters moving. Even with the resp., I sometimes be wheezing afterwards. Nasty stuff.

When I was a safety dir. for a copper refinery years back, found out that the old timers were spraying it in the cells prior to going into them to burn lead. Put a stop to that, I mean, first they are breathing that crap in a confined space, then they are burgning lead.


I really like being an exterminator.

I went hunting everyday.



Nastiest job, lady with 4 German Shephards, sickly looking, worse case of fleas ever. We did spray perm. on our shoes, and up to our knees to keep the critters off. We started to spray the back deck with the power sprayer, the deck turned blood red from all the dried blood and flea residue.

Poor dogs.