Standards of living........... getting much worse.

[BraggSurvivor]

As emergency conditions approach south of the Bragg Estate, drastic new
measures are being put in place................

Belts are all receiving at least 2 new notches..... offspringers are being
introduced to allowances and odd jobs such as newspaper routes... baby
sittings... and neighborhood car washings... lawn care services,,,etc.

Madam has been given a new "COOK" book and shown where the
kitchen is located in the castle........also new foods are being brought
in and the monthly pass at the Chinese Buffet suspended...

Horrors......... is that a large bag of RICE.....???

Why are those dry pinto beans sitting there???

WHOAH....powered eggs, milk.... and Regan era cheese??? All
USDA surplus donated hijacked on the way to the local food pantry????


This is SERIOUS...........


The old Jap clunker is being traded for 2 used HONDA 50's and all
shoes are going in for re-soles...................what next......T-shirts from
WAL MART made in China??????????

Oh Tommy Hilfliger.................. help!!!!!!

Next, I will be returning the Hanna Montana tickets for some Boy
and Girl Scouts manuals on survival............DOOM.


Stay tuned........




Tuff times ahead!

[Sourdough]

I have decided to buy another large freezer, chest type and glue blue or pink Dow board on the outside for super insulation. And I have a new 7' X 10' building I could super insulate and put the freezer in there, and if need be open the freezer lid and have the whole building be a walk-in freezer.

I am looking at the firewood business, setting up a good system to turn out 10 cords a day, the city people pay $300'ish now, and rural pay $260'ish. I think the price could go to $700.00 a cord as stove oil will have tripled by early fall.

[crashdive123]

You guys just make me feel so.....well, so glad to be alive. ....and what's wrong with T-shirsts from Wal Mart?

[Rick]

http://www.begoths.com/html/images/header_doom_gloom.jpg

[wareagle69]

I have decided to buy another large freezer, chest type and glue blue or pink Dow board on the outside for super insulation. And I have a new 7' X 10' building I could super insulate and put the freezer in there, and if need be open the freezer lid and have the whole building be a walk-in freezer.

I am looking at the firewood business, setting up a good system to turn out 10 cords a day, the city people pay $300'ish now, and rural pay $260'ish. I think the price could go to $700.00 a cord as stove oil will have tripled by early fall.

are you shi**ng me all that wood in your state and people are paying that much for it? a cord of seasoned hardwood goes amybe 85 a cord here, but i just take a log everytime i walk the mutts and carry one back for the wood pile, split by hand and keeps me warm three times..

[Rick]

Hopeak is being ironic again. Repeat after me, WE. Grain of salt.

[nell67]

Hopeak is being ironic again. Repeat after me, WE. Grain of salt.
Nah,salt lick maybe.

[BraggSurvivor]

I believe the majority of North Americans, having been shown all their lives they are "Entitled" to a certain standard of living, will run themselves into ruin, expecting someone else to save them, before they realize,"This is for "REAL" & they are the only ones who are actually responsible for their own survival.
I worry that we may be too spoiled to see it clearly enough, though I am putting in a rotating garden & purchasing cheap clothes, but still buying decent beer.


The big question is:

Will the next adminstration have the **gumption** to tell Americans the hard truth?

Or will the state of denial continue?

[Sourdough]

You nailed it when you said you felt like Noah, warning of what is coming, and everyone is, "dude, the sun is shinning, no worries man".

I just do not get that people do not see this as a huge deal. I guess the drug "Denial" is very powerful.

It will be interesting to watch the explosion of activity when the "Media" Say's, "OK, sheeple panic now".

[DOGMAN]

are you shi**ng me all that wood in your state and people are paying that much for it? a cord of seasoned hardwood goes amybe 85 a cord here, but i just take a log everytime i walk the mutts and carry one back for the wood pile, split by hand and keeps me warm three times..

Nice Aldo Leopold reference there wareagle....good wood warms you three times- gather, split, burn:)

[BraggSurvivor]

You nailed it when you said you felt like Noah, warning of what is coming, and everyone is, "dude, the sun is shinning, no worries man".

I just do not get that people do not see this as a huge deal. I guess the drug "Denial" is very powerful.

It will be interesting to watch the explosion of activity when the "Media" Say's, "OK, sheeple panic now".


I contribute it to the Floride in drinking water.;)

[BraggSurvivor]

Spring 1929 is in the air, wake up and smell the tulips --it is my new motto.

And when did stocks top in 1929? In September!

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/droke/droke051908.html

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

interesting article that sort of mirrors this discussion in this month's GQ, I say sort of because a lot of it is tongue in cheek laughter at a lot of people's ostentatiousness (is that a word?). Title is "Thank God for the Recession", points out the cyclicalness, how we're headed down from the bubble, and how people's values are gonna have to change. pretty good read.

[Rick]

The thing that boggles my mind is how panicked people can become. They fail to recognize or accept the ups and downs of the business cycle and clamor about "weeping and gnashing of teeth". All is well, the sun is shining, the tide is turning, the housing market is flattening out. Send all your useless American dollars to me and I'll be happy to take care of them for you. 23% real inflation....It's never been that high, not even during the depression. April was 3.94, the third consecutive drop from January's high of 4.28%. That's a long way from 23%.

What happened to that $1100 and $1200 dollar an ounce gold? Oh, yea, the market improved and the price went down. That's right. Boy, glad I didn't buy any at $1000 an ounce. Whew.....

Sheeple Rick :D

[Sourdough]

Now I understand, Now I understand, You really do believe them when they say, Trust me inflation really is only 3.94%. Well at least now I get why people think all is just peachy keen.

I love my country, but I do not trust my government to tell the truth.........:eek:

[Rick]

Let's see. Oh, yea. The government is the only one that has people smart enough to figure the rate of inflation from year to year (or period to period). I cain't cypher that high. I ain't got 'nuff fingers and toes.:o Twenty one's as high as I can go on account of that extra pinky toe.

[Sam Reeves]

The government is finally acknowledging the 800 pound gorilla in their livingroom.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/09/business/09fed.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

i'll be honest, for guys like the ones on this forum (read: prepared or preparing), i imagine things are gonna be just fine. I'm pretty sure you all can handle tightening the proverbial belt for a time. It's the guys that think it can't happen to them that'll be cryin on the roadside, so why warn em? Times get tough, times get better. Looks like we're in for a tough spell.

[Sourdough]

I am just telling ya how it feels to me, and I feel like inflation is 3.94% per "MONTH".

And I am sure glad I was not holding Dow Stocks last week, "DOWN" over 500 points.

[BraggSurvivor]

The thing that boggles my mind is how panicked people can become. They fail to recognize or accept the ups and downs of the business cycle and clamor about "weeping and gnashing of teeth". All is well, the sun is shining, the tide is turning, the housing market is flattening out. Send all your useless American dollars to me and I'll be happy to take care of them for you. 23% real inflation....It's never been that high, not even during the depression. April was 3.94, the third consecutive drop from January's high of 4.28%. That's a long way from 23%.

What happened to that $1100 and $1200 dollar an ounce gold? Oh, yea, the market improved and the price went down. That's right. Boy, glad I didn't buy any at $1000 an ounce. Whew.....

Sheeple Rick :D


Sheeple Rick......has kind of a ring to it. :D


In the fantastic business of borrowing the billions the banks get at 2%
from the FED & Japan & place through their pet agents, time is of the essence.

From the moment the deal is done the money must be invested or they
lose. So where to invest in this dog-eared, sagging debt-ridden capitalist
market? Not lending, everyone’s got plenty of debt; not houses, they’re all
stuffed; not stocks, most are going the same way as houses; not in the
bond bubble market ready for a dive, no way.

What can they jack up at minimum risk.

Oil & food naturally, the stuff people kill & die for.

I propose the twat GS analyst who says oil is going to $141 is off by $10 minimum.

The h&s pattern has pretty much worked out, after which it will drop like a stone.



$1200.00 for gold will be cheap (physical)........you will see. Can I say manipulation here?

http://www.kitco.com/ind/Gerbino/may232008.html

[Sam Reeves]

And I am sure glad I was not holding Dow Stocks last week, "DOWN" over 500 points.Buy, buy, buy. BUY!

[Chicago Dan]

There was just a story on the local news a week ago about how bad the free food pantry supplies have dwindled to frightening lows. There were many new people coming in to supplement their food because of rising expenses. They interviewed one man who drove his SUV in from his $50k job to get some free food to feed his family of 4. His mortgage rate had adjusted, the gas for his SUV had gone up, he had the SUV payment, rising utilities, taxes, cell phone, cable TV, internet access, credit card payments on his HDTV, etc.....
I really felt bad for the guy. He blames the government.
What is he going to do. Can't eat his sons new IPod.
Mmmmm.
Maybe he's right and the government is to blame for allowing him to make those decisions on his expenditures and lifestyle.
He should be offered a nice bed in a room of 200 in some camp far, far away from the rest of us. There is a nice clean facility here with 3 squares, a high fence, guards and "residents" who are allowed to wear PJ's all day long. Maybe he should "volunteer" for the nurse Ratchet club.

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

There was just a story on the local news a week ago about how bad the free food pantry supplies have dwindled to frightening lows. There were many new people coming in to supplement their food because of rising expenses. They interviewed one man who drove his SUV in from his $50k job to get some free food to feed his family of 4. His mortgage rate had adjusted, the gas for his SUV had gone up, he had the SUV payment, rising utilities, taxes, cell phone, cable TV, internet access, credit card payments on his HDTV, etc.....
I really felt bad for the guy. He blames the government.
What is he going to do. Can't eat his sons new IPod.
Mmmmm.
Maybe he's right and the government is to blame for allowing him to make those decisions on his expenditures and lifestyle.
He should be offered a nice bed in a room of 200 in some camp far, far away from the rest of us. There is a nice clean facility here with 3 squares, a high fence, guards and "residents" who are allowed to wear PJ's all day long. Maybe he should "volunteer" for the nurse Ratchet club.

seriously, what happened to "putting something away for a rainy day"?

[Sourdough]

It never rains in America, Never. The government is in total control of the economy, no worries, need two chickens in every pot, no problem, need three cars in every driveway, no problem. No need to save money, you need some money, the nice government will print it for you. "We're from the government we are here to help you".:eek:

[Tahyo]

**Snip** "We're from the government we are here to help you".:eek:

Ah, there's that 4th lie that I've been hearing about.

[BraggSurvivor]

The people have eyes, but refuse to see. The truth is in plain view. You only have to look at it. The people get the government they deserve. The government deserves to have its way because of the type of citizens the people have become.

<where is my tie die shirt?> ;)

[Sourdough]

Google up: shadow statistics

[Rick]

Hey, Sam. Check the date on your post. That was from Nov, 2007.

Bragg - Where do you get that stocks are going the same as houses? Mine sure aren't. Mine have been appreciating for several weeks. What's this? You are advocating stocks?! I can't believe my eyes. Kitco says, "When you start worrying about your portfolio, please remember these simple data points that make precious metal STOCKS (emp. added) good investments:..." Are you buying stocks? Be still my beating heart.:D

Like I've told you guys. I am a sheeple. Glad to be one. I don't scare easy.

Sheeple Rick

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

DCA-Dollar Cost Averaging. Best time to do it too!

[Rick]

LTLG - Uh, there is no best time to dollar cost average. That's why it's called that.:D

I can't seem to make these chicken littles understand that when stocks are high you earn great dividends and when stocks go low it's like Wall Street is having a fire sale. Your DCA buys more stock.

If Walmart had a 50% off sale on rice, they'd be there in a heart beat.

If Costco had a 30% off sale on wheat, they'd be there in a heart beat.

If BP had a 10% off sale on gasoline, they'd be there in a heart beat.

Let the Dow offer a 15% off stock sale and the economy is going to China in a basket. (scratches head) Can't figure it out.

[BraggSurvivor]

The only stock I advocate is for soup. :p

Rather than put my money into stocks, I have instead invested in PM's and in building corporations outside the US and Canada.

Rather than the goofy tax breaks the CAD government deigns to offer me I have given myself 100% tax free income forever.

Oh, and I can play "building blocks" with pure gold and silver when the grand babies start arriving, just to hedge the offshore. Papa gonna teach them early. :D:D:D

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

LTLG - Uh, there is no best time to dollar cost average. That's why it's called that.:D

I can't seem to make these chicken littles understand that when stocks are high you earn great dividends and when stocks go low it's like Wall Street is having a fire sale. Your DCA buys more stock.

If Walmart had a 50% off sale on rice, they'd be there in a heart beat.

If Costco had a 30% off sale on wheat, they'd be there in a heart beat.

If BP had a 10% off sale on gasoline, they'd be there in a heart beat.

Let the Dow offer a 15% off stock sale and the economy is going to China in a basket. (scratches head) Can't figure it out.

okay, best time to continue instead of dumping:)

[Sourdough]

I bet we are all going to die, and that you can take to the bank, you won't get much, but maybe when they had lier'loans.

Best to keep it all in prospective, you are going to die, and no amount of money will change that, what matters is how you live every day, every minute. The money is just for play, and maybe for kind'a keeping score.

[Sam Reeves]

Hey, Sam. Check the date on your post. That was from Nov, 2007.

LOL. You're right. Here's one that says we are even worse off now than we were before.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/16/AR2008041602182.html

I don't believe we are heading for a total economic collapse but I do believe we are heading for another depression. Only now we have a dumb and violent population with the worst of the worst instead of the best the world had to offer like we did back in 1929.

This time the sheep will get slaughtered.

[BraggSurvivor]

If banks have no money to lend, then consumers cannot buy things on credit. Even if they could buy on credit, businesses will not be able to borrow to restock inventory or get raw materials for manufacturing. With consumers not buying and with business unable to manufacture or restock, businesses will have to layoff employees. MASSIVE layoffs. Huge unemployment.

As folks lose their jobs, they won't have money coming in to repay any outstanding debts they already have. The bad debts will take out the banks. No credit, no business, no jobs. Total economic collapse.

The only hope they have of delaying (not avoiding) this massive collapse is to change the fractional reserve rules to allow Banks to lend even more money than they have in reserves.

When they make that rule change, they will have to pump several TRILLION in cash into the economy; which will result in almost immediate hyper-inflation. Other currencies will rise sharply against the U.S. dollar resulting in all imported goods skyrocketing in price. Since you don't manufacture anything in your country anymore, these skyrocketing prices will impact everything you buy.

As people find themselves unable to afford the basic necessities of life, social chaos will erupt. Ladies and gentlemen, I am sorry to tell you that in our lifetime we will see the literal collpase of the United States. We will see ourselves nations gone mad. It will be a madness that cannot be restrained, but which can only exhaust itself in blood.

All of the trouble coming at us later this year and into early next year is is going to happen because of your federal government is borrowing itself into oblivion.

Folks are already e-mailing me asking "What can I do to protect myself." The short answer is prepare now. Start accumulating food to feed yourself and your family for upwards of a full year!

Stock up on canned foods. Lots of canned foods. They don't go bad for years and the price you pay now will be a lot cheaper than if you wait.

It's gonna get ugly, folks. Real ugly. The feds may delay it awhile, but they cannot avoid it.


Prophet Bragg has spoken. ;)

[Rick]

Yeah, that's one way to look at it I guess. But you know what they say about opinions.:D

Hopeak, you are right about the dead part. No one gets out alive. Of course, I'm gonna try and push ahead as long as I can. Then I'll stagger, then wheel my chair, then have someone push me. This game is too much fun to quit.

[Sourdough]

I understand (I have not seen) that there is a article in the weekend Wall Street Journal about the banks that are going under in the next 3 months, Most I hear are east coast banks.

[Rick]

Don't doubt the going under part at all. Banks are a lot like any other business, if the owners didn't retain a sufficient cash reserve and made too many risky loans then they get what's coming to 'em I guess. Same for business. Some with shaky histories are going to find it impossible to find credit. You won't see that happen to well run companies, though. I'll bet Hopeak LLC could get a loan in Hope (You didn't really give the pres of the bank the finger did you?). I know I can if need be. I'm holding a line of credit so I don't have to ask. I can just use it.

[Sourdough]

Good thing Lady Goose is squirting out eggs like no tomorrow, Goose Omelets and home grown taters. Does anyone know which beer has the longest shelf life.....?

[Rick]

The only thing the lady duck spit out today was duck poop all over my patio.

Does alcohol go bad?

[Buddha443556]

Those "shadow statistics" are interesting, alway figured the numbers were off just never knew there was a term for them.

[crashdive123]

Shelf life on beer? Couple of days once it hits the fridge.

[BraggSurvivor]

Shelf life on beer? Couple of days once it hits the fridge.


:D:D:D:D:D Good one!

[Sourdough]

Don't doubt the going under part at all. Banks are a lot like any other business, if the owners didn't retain a sufficient cash reserve and made too many risky loans then they get what's coming to 'em I guess. Same for business. Some with shaky histories are going to find it impossible to find credit. You won't see that happen to well run companies, though. I'll bet Hopeak LLC could get a loan in Hope (You didn't really give the pres of the bank the finger did you?). I know I can if need be. I'm holding a line of credit so I don't have to ask. I can just use it.

Rick, You should look up Hope, Alaska........no banks, no gas stations, no stop lights, and two stop signs, the whole thing is at the very deadend of a 16 mile road. (One teacher teaches grade one through 12).

[Rick]

Still, you get my point.

[Sam Reeves]

Don't doubt the going under part at all. Banks are a lot like any other business, if the owners didn't retain a sufficient cash reserve and made too many risky loans then they get what's coming to 'em I guess. Same for business. Some with shaky histories are going to find it impossible to find credit. You won't see that happen to well run companies, though. I'll bet Hopeak LLC could get a loan in Hope (You didn't really give the pres of the bank the finger did you?). I know I can if need be. I'm holding a line of credit so I don't have to ask. I can just use it.

Good bye Capitalism, Hello Socialism.

http://www.portfolio.com/views/columns/economics/2008/02/19/Massive-Bailout-Planned-for-Banks?print=true


.

[crashdive123]

Good bye Capitalism, Hello Socialism.

http://www.portfolio.com/views/columns/economics/2008/02/19/Massive-Bailout-Planned-for-Banks?print=true


.

???????????????????????

[Sourdough]

Still, you get my point.

Rick, I not only get your point, I totally understand how you feel about this whole subject, And this will knock your socks off, the odds are you are correct. However the cost will be painful if this time they can not erect one more set of mirrors and more smoke. Bragg might be correct, or we may have very high inflation, very high inflation.

But mark my work, there will be a high price paid for this oil at $135.00, ( and yes the $135.00 is the price paid of other poor choices) and it is different this time. I see no disadvantage to laying a lot of food at cheap prices. And I see no disadvantage to having my money "OUT" of harms way.

My only fear is that some who maybe not be as knowledgeable about current economics as some might not realize the extent to which you have somewhat hedged your risk. This could leave them excessively exposed to un-necessary risks.

[Rick]

Yea, I don't get the connection either. Remember Chrysler? The government bailed them out.

What do you consider to be the alternative? Allow a large number of banks to default and close, which means a LOT of folks out of jobs. Not just those that work there but the service folks that take care of the buildings and the grounds.

You have to pick the lesser of evils and, in this case, bailing them out is better on the economy than letting them fold, IMHO.

[Sam Reeves]

???????????????????????

When America starts bailing out Automotive industries, Airlines and banks it is leaning heavily towards Market Socialism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism


.

[Sam Reeves]

Yea, I don't get the connection either. Remember Chrysler? The government bailed them out.

What do you consider to be the alternative? Allow a large number of banks to default and close, which means a LOT of folks out of jobs. Not just those that work there but the service folks that take care of the buildings and the grounds. If our government was worthy of it's name it wouldn't have encourage the events that lead up to this.


You have to pick the lesser of evils and, in this case, bailing them out is better on the economy than letting them fold, IMHO.A long enough span of constantly choosing between the lesser of two evils and this is what you get.

[Sourdough]

The whole concept of "MONEY" and "WEALTH" are illusions. Just like security, and time is another illusion. I know you'all hate this but very little is real, only the every present moment of now, now, now. Most of what we call life is just illusions.

[crashdive123]

Sam - the wiki definition that you have provided is not what has, or is happening. You guys can preach doom and gloom all you want. Prepare if you will for any eventuality (I think that many on this forum do) but for the love of god - you guys need to seriously lighten up. This is not to say that tough times are not ahead. But since we're all about survival how about offering up some solutions to what you believe will be coming rather than make everybody want to let a quart of blood. (end rant)

[Rick]

I could not agree more with you Hopeak. I've said all along it will be a lot worse before it gets better. The caveat to this whole cycle, I think, is the petroleum situation. We saw that in 1974 but then we still had some pretty substantial reserves. You knew the price and the availability would rebound and it did. That's not true this time around. Domestic reserves have been used. Will the price stabalize? Probably but who knows where? 5-6 bucks a gallon is quite possible and if futures continue to bid high then those prices are likely. Higher?

The housing bubble doesn't concern me. Of course, I don't work in the industry so my job isn't at risk but commercial building continues unabated. In the lower 48 new industrial buildings and malls are still being built at a crazy pace. Part of my mutuals are in commercial construction and they've remained strong. We're even seeing some improvement in the housing side. That will stabalize once demand reaches equilibrium with supply. That's just a matter of time.

Debt is a little more worrisome in that we have amassed debt on a national scale while everyone else in the world has been saving. That's not a good thing. This should serve as a wake up call for those folks that haven't been saving.

Forget the economy for a moment and focus just on your comment about stocking food reserves. That's prudent no matter what the circumstances are. None of us know when bad weather or illness or short term price spikes will occur so stocking up is just smart business.

Grundle has done a nice job of explaining his financial beliefs. Buy only what you need. Pay cash. Don't go in debt. Save to buy something. All good stuff. He has his head on straight and others would do well to read through his posts.

I think those that are truly in the best position of all are the Amish. They live life the way it's probably supposed to be lived and regardless of the business cycle they have the resources and knowledge to take care of themselves. They would be some great teachers if you live close to any of their farms.

[crashdive123]

I
I think those that are truly in the best position of all are the Amish. They live life the way it's probably supposed to be lived and regardless of the business cycle they have the resources and knowledge to take care of themselves. They would be some great teachers if you live close to any of their farms.

My wife and I were talking about the Amish this morning and how the current cycle is probably affecting them less than any other group. Simpler is often better.

[Rick]

Sam, riddle me this. How is the government to blame for folks taking ARMs on housing 1/3 larger than they should have bought? How is the government to blame for people amassing staggering credit card debt? And how is the government to blame for folks trying to weasel out of their responsibilities by filing bankruptcy?

We want to blame the government for not helping when things go wrong and we want to blame the government for creating problems in the economy. How about let's stand up and call a spade a spade and take responsiblity for our own greed and mishandling of our personal finances? That's what is at the root of the debt and housing problems.

[Sam Reeves]

Sam - the wiki definition that you have provided is not what has, or is happening.That is exactly what is happening and has been happening.
You guys can preach doom and gloom all you want. Prepare if you will for any eventuality (I think that many on this forum do) but for the love of god - you guys need to seriously lighten up. This is not to say that tough times are not ahead. But since we're all about survival how about offering up some solutions to what you believe will be coming rather than make everybody want to let a quart of blood. (end rant)

If folks have a better understanding of the world around them they can better prepare for the likely outcome. Survival is about more than campfires and knowing what plant to eat. Want a solution? Inform people that can make a difference and invest in precious metals and energy for the long haul.

[Rick]

You are welcome to your opinion, Sam. But the U.S. is a free market society. I set my own prices on my products. I don't have to answer to a board of regents as to what I have to pay for my materials or what I can sale my product for.

I do agree that people should have a better understanding of the world around them. Also that survival is more than campfires. But you'll have to talk to Bragg about precious metals. I just lost my hearing. :rolleyes:

[BraggSurvivor]

One of the guys I know, who works in financials, looked right at me and said "what housing problem"?, "what's fiat, and what currency problem"?, etc. Blew me away that he works in the field and cannot see the economic unraveling. I didn't mention PM's, just said I was taking precautions with the increase in prices and buying more food stuffs. They all looked at me like I was smoking crack and a few laughed thinking I was insane...

Screw'm, I'll never talk about that stuff again. I guess living in bliss and ignorance is the way to go... At least my best friend is taking precautions and has been listening to what I have been passing on and doing his own research. His parents were of the Depression so he knows all too well that crap can hit the fan...

He who laughs last laughs best. Personally, I hope to help as many needy as I can and have stockpiled much more than I need for just my family. There are still a lot of good people out there who could not prepare if they wanted to because of their current conditions - age, health, finance, whatever. I could not sit fat and watch my elderly neighbors - genuinely nice people, or my other neighbors and their three young children starve. That's not a person I want to be and no amount of rhetoric or justification and making excuses will change that. I envision groups of tight knit neighbors forming as sort of extended clans, banding together in hard times to survive, look out for each other and protect each other. I don't want to be the neighborhood hard *** with guns pointed at everyone else outside my own home.

[Sam Reeves]

Sam, riddle me this. How is the government to blame for folks taking ARMs on housing 1/3 larger than they should have bought? How is the government to blame for people amassing staggering credit card debt? And how is the government to blame for folks trying to weasel out of their responsibilities by filing bankruptcy? Simple.

- Imposing multiculturalism. Folks always follow the path of least resistance. Since then generation X has seen that it is fruitful to mimic the recent tired, cold hungry masses and demand handouts and ignore responsibility. The country wasn't founded on this.

-Unfair trade agreements.

-The Federal Reserve system.

These are just a few of the problems that directly contributed to this.



We want to blame the government for not helping when things go wrong and we want to blame the government for creating problems in the economy. I laugh at the idiots that acquired ARMs and $30,000 of credit card debt.
How about let's stand up and call a spade a spade and take responsiblity for our own greed and mishandling of our personal finances? That's what is at the root of the debt and housing problems.I agree but doesn't this contradict what you said earlier about accepting the lesser of two evil and bailing out the banks?

[Sam Reeves]

On a positive note OPEC is finally getting some competition.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/05/22/ccoil122.xml

[Rick]

That statement was made on context of people being to blame for a large portion of the debt and housing problems so it doesn't contradict it at all.

I don't know what an unfair trade agreement is. If you mean global trade then you have to consider that Detroit only improved their vehicles when the Japanese almost took their market. That's free enterprise at work. I've voiced my opinion on global trade too many times. It's just a natural extension and it works.

If you mean protectionism, that's practiced by every country on the planet. It's one of the reasons prices are low. Japanese steel almost closed American plants because the Japanese gov't subsidized their steel industry just like we subsidize the dairy and grain markets in this country. Milk would probably be $10 a gallon if it wasn't subsidized.

[Sam Reeves]

That statement was made on context of people being to blame for a large portion of the debt and housing problems so it doesn't contradict it at all. I stand corrected but shouldn't your logic also be applied to banks, airlines and car producers?


I don't know what an unfair trade agreement is. If you mean global trade then you have to consider that Detroit only improved their vehicles when the Japanese almost took their market. That's free enterprise at work. I've voiced my opinion on global trade too many times. It's just a natural extension and it works.
http://www.cbia.com/cbianews/2005/04/200504_ChinaMustStop.htm


If you mean protectionism, that's practiced by every country on the planet. It's one of the reasons prices are low. Japanese steel almost closed American plants because the Japanese gov't subsidized their steel industry just like we subsidize the dairy and grain markets in this country. Milk would probably be $10 a gallon if it wasn't subsidized.Actually we pay farmers not to grow crops so the prices will not drop.

[BraggSurvivor]

Sometimes I really wish I could take a pill that would make me one of the functioning idiots in society who can stroll through life without having to think for themselves. I could blame any and all big corporations/persons and only one side of the political spectrum for all that is perceived to be wrong in my life.

But alas, I haven't drank enough alcohol to get me there yet!

[crashdive123]

Sometimes I really wish I could take a pill that would make me one of the functioning idiots in society who can stroll through life without having to think for themselves. I could blame any and all big corporations/persons and only one side of the political spectrum for all that is perceived to be wrong in my life.

But alas, I haven't drank enough alcohol to get me there yet!

My point earlier to Sam, and now to you is that I believe you guys are preaching to the choir. The people here are preparing (yeah sam I know survival is more than building a camp fire). So if people here are preparing and all you post is this doom and gloom crap (I know you've been busy, but that's still no excuse for not firing up the smoker) you're going to turn people off. Yeah I know, I know...if you don't like it don't read it. Rather than b**ch and moan, offer up some viable solutions. I think I need a drink now.

[Ken]

Pour one for me, too, Crash.:D

[Sam Reeves]

Sometimes I really wish I could take a pill that would make me one of the functioning idiots in society who can stroll through life without having to think for themselves. I could blame any and all big corporations/persons and only one side of the political spectrum for all that is perceived to be wrong in my life.

But alas, I haven't drank enough alcohol to get me there yet!


The sad part is that government is no long able to provide for the people they will be looking to folks such as yourself.

"Hey Bragg, Can borrow a cup of sugar and, um, a couple of weeks worth of groceries and some of that firewood, too? Thanks."

[wareagle69]

well said crash

[Sam Reeves]

My point earlier to Sam, and now to you is that I believe you guys are preaching to the choir. The people here are preparing (yeah sam I know survival is more than building a camp fire). So if people here are preparing and all you post is this doom and gloom crap (I know you've been busy, but that's still no excuse for not firing up the smoker) you're going to turn people off. Yeah I know, I know...if you don't like it don't read it. Rather than b**ch and moan, offer up some viable solutions. I think I need a drink now.

Is there some unwritten forum rule that states that discussion of potential circumstances that would to a SHTF situation is forbidden?

[crashdive123]

Forget it Sam. Have a good night.

[Sam Reeves]

Good night, Crash.

[wareagle69]

what crash is saying sam that it was pointed out earlier that some people have felt that starting fires and other simple survival skills did not have anything else to offer them since it have been over covered so thus the doom and gloom era entered about four months ago, i beleive what crash is saying is that why do some only post doom and gloom, if you post a problem with mushrooms i will post back a solution, so what crash is saying instead of always telling us that the world is going to end why not give us a solution of what to do when it has ended, instead of constantly pointing out all the reasons we are all going to fail, isee this as over coverage of this topic...

[Sourdough]

Crash, there really is no way to give people advise on this, as people are all over the financial map. If you have a job and you hate it, this is not the time to quit. Food is the best investment that is for sure right now, meat is a steal right now, buy a freezer, and fill it. All food will be at lest 20% higher with-in a year, and most likely up 35% to 40+%.
So food is a no brainer.

Get out of debt. urgently get out of debt. If you have stocks and you have debt at 19% to 27% credit cards, sell the stocks and pay off the credit cards, and cut them up. Stocks are not going to return 19% to 29% in the near future.

A good job, shucks even a bad job will be good to have for the next 3 to 5 years.

Mostly live a simple high quality life, don't buy every gadget, spend more time reading.

And if you are a rich old lady, and not to ugly send me a PM......:p:p:p

[Rick]

Actually both, Sam. The farm bank pays to keep crops out of production and farm subsidies do just that, subsidize various crops. In the case of dairy, over 431 million was paid out in subsidies in 2006 (the latest numbers) just to keep the price low on dairy products.

http://farm.ewg.org/farm/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=dairy

[Sam Reeves]

what crash is saying sam that it was pointed out earlier that some people have felt that starting fires and other simple survival skills did not have anything else to offer them since it have been over covered so thus the doom and gloom era entered about four months ago, i beleive what crash is saying is that why do some only post doom and gloom, if you post a problem with mushrooms i will post back a solution, so what crash is saying instead of always telling us that the world is going to end why not give us a solution of what to do when it has ended, instead of constantly pointing out all the reasons we are all going to fail, isee this as over coverage of this topic...

It's hard to explore solutions when any discussion of the outside world that effects EVERYBODY is met with criticism and hostility.

I figured most folks here already knew how to start a fire or bait a hook. You'll have to excuse me. I'm new to the forum.

[wareagle69]

It's hard to explore solutions when any discussion of the outside world that effects EVERYBODY is met with criticism and hostility.

I figured most folks here already knew how to start a fire or bait a hook. You'll have to excuse me. I'm new to the forum.

some can start a fire some can't these people you assume can start a fire can they do it with a hand drill? or a bow or two rocks together? i don't see many questions about that or questions on lots of wild edibles(and not to pick on the doom and gloomers)but i don't see questions about how to make rope from natural materials or how to use willow for a headach cure so much too cover,i agree that financial survival is important to phsical survival and thay have offered some solutions of how they have done it but both APPEAR to have money expain to my boy fvr who busts his arse every day and is raising his family or to nell whose home just burned to the ground how buying gold and silver will help them in the next 3 years

[Sam Reeves]

Actually both, Sam. The farm bank pays to keep crops out of production and farm subsidies do just that, subsidize various crops. In the case of dairy, over 431 million was paid out in subsidies in 2006 (the latest numbers) just to keep the price low on dairy products.

http://farm.ewg.org/farm/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=dairy

Obviously we do this to help our farmers compete with foreign markets. This is hardly free trade, which brings us back to Market Socialism.

http://usfoodpolicy.blogspot.com/2007/11/canada-joins-brazil-in-challenging-us.html

[Chicago Dan]

I take one consolation in regards to a possible collapse of the American economic system: Without supports those who are the "teat suckers" will be weeded out.
I may also be taken down by the civil unrest but boards like this show me that elsewhere there are those who are able and willing to produce and civilization will on some level survive.

Every now and then I ask someone here(Chicago) what would they do if a disaster struck and they were with out power, food, shelter for an extended period of time(say 1-3 months). Of course you have heard the answer before and can guess it. Many quickly respond: “I’ll sue". I guess this is the same mentality of those in New Orleans who with out shelter, food, water etc. stole HDTV's.

I am not hoping for any disaster natural or otherwise but in some respect there may a long term benefit. The swimming pool has just gotten full of too much crud and the filter needs to be turned on and eliminate the entitled "I'll sue" crowd. A little reality and personal responsibility is a good thing.

I also disagree with those who have posted that wealth is an illusion.
Not so I say.
I believe: Wealth=Ability to produce.

As a side note to the discussions to what form of economic system we live under I ask: What would happen to the "teat" people if those producing just quit? Walked away, left the country, disappeared etc.
Riots, lawsuits, etc...?
Are the "teat" people going to force the producers back to work?
Under what threat? What do they have to offer in return?
What system is it when some work under duress for the benefit of others and not themselves?
Welcome to the United States.

[Rick]

What crystal ball do have to tell folks what stocks will return? You don't know that. That's just an opinion.

1. If you don't currently know how to balance your check book, learn. There are plenty of sites on the web that will teach you how.

2. If you do not know how to set up a budget, the same thing applies. It is important that you learn how to control your money. Balancing a check book and putting yourself on a budget are the basics of starting to gain control.

3. Establish your financial goals. Determine what it is you want to accomplish short term (less than 12 months) and long term (2 or more years). Write down your goals. That's an important step because it makes them more concrete in your mind. Post your goals in a prominent place so you can refer to them often. (look on the web for advice on goal setting).

4. Reduce your debt load. Start with the highest interest debt first. Generally, that is credit card debt but whatever it is, try to reduce it as quickly as possible. Do NOT rush out and cancel your credit cards. Your Credit Score is a balance between the amount of available credit you have and the amount of debt you have. If you are carrying 3000 in debt but have 15,000 credit available you will look much better than if you cancel your credit cards. You will still have 3000 in debt but now you might only have 4000 in credit and your Credit Score will drop causing you to pay higher interest on any loans you must take out like for a car. You can cut up your cards but don't cancel the accounts. If you just have to cancel them, do so one at a time and make certain you are paying down your debt as you cancel them.

5. Build a cash reserve of no less than 3 months. You may have to wait until your debt is reduced in order to accomplish this but it is important to have an emergency reserve.

6. Invest in what you are comfortable investing in. Historically, 401Ks have been the best investment vehicle especially if your employer matches any portion of your investment. Roth IRAs are next. Never invest in a single vehicle. Diversify your holdings to reduce your risk. If you like precious metals, fine. Stock, fine. Real estate, that's fine, too. It's a buyers market. The important thing is that you invest. Again, that might be something you have to do later. Get the debt reduced first. Build the cash reserve. If you can do it all at once, all the better.

7. Learn to buy what you need rather than what you want. Learn to buy by saving for it and paying cash as much as you can.

If you master these you'll be well on your way to a positive financial outlook.

[Rick]

I give up, Sam. You're right. I leave it at that.

[Sam Reeves]

some can start a fire some can't these people you assume can start a fire can they do it with a hand drill? or a bow or two rocks together? i don't see many questions about that or questions on lots of wild edibles(and not to pick on the doom and gloomers)but i don't see questions about how to make rope from natural materials or how to use willow for a headach cure so much too cover,

http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2855

Actually if you will back and read my post on any non-political thread will notice that I have alot of interest in this things.



i agree that financial survival is important to phsical survival and thay have offered some solutions of how they have done it but both APPEAR to have money expain to my boy fvr who busts his arse every day and is raising his family or to nell whose home just burned to the ground how buying gold and silver will help them in the next 3 years
I am not particularly wealthy. I was recently stricken with a rare illness known as Gillian's Barre. Any savings that I had were spent during the five weeks that I spent in the hospital and the nine weeks that I was out of work. I am a metal fabricator. I work 50 hours a week doing a job that no sissy could do. I have several scars and usually have a backache. I also attend a community college 10-15 hours a week. I hate it when bad things happen to good folks suck as nell but the fact that bad things usually happen happen to good people does not disqualify anything I stated about gold.

[Rick]

Nor does it support it.:D

[Sam Reeves]

I give up, Sam. You're right. I leave it at that.

Look, I'm just pointing out that economic change more times than not is often followed by political change. I believe that the nation we live in is changing and that the 'good ole days' are a thing of the past. That's my opinion based on my observations.

[Sam Reeves]

Nor does it support it.:D

With the exception of the immediate family is there a better investment than gold?

[wareagle69]

sam i have not read your posts about gold i was refering to other posts you are new to me here.
what i look for here are solutions there seems to be at least two schools of thought here that i can see the outdoor primitive skills member and the financial survival member most here fit into both catagories but more predomonatley in one or the other.

i am curious what will happen when /if the ecomony does crash do these people have the ability to survive, did they prepare all ways did save cash on hand did they store food? did they make their dwelling safe and the same to the one who think buging out will be like spending a week at camp or hunting how well do they think they will be able to hunt or fish some say they are sucsessful every time(hogwash) how will they do when they have to do it every day for a living and have they prpared to go without meat do they knw how to, i prepare both way read my motto again i make it my mantra ALWAYS BE PREPARED-PREPARE ALL WAYS but i am here to help offer solutions to peoples questions not whine about what if.

[Rick]

Are you ready? 401Ks, Roth IRA, Mutual Funds. Historically, they have all had higher rates of returns AND less risk because you can spread your risk across several classes. If the price of gold drops you are left with overpriced metal that you must hold hoping the price goes back up. Like those that bought at $1000 an ounce will now have to hang on to it. They can not sell it without taking a loss. That alone makes metal risky.

[Rick]

Ooops. I should have said that alone makes metal risky TO ME. Sorry.

[BraggSurvivor]

Are you ready? 401Ks, Roth IRA, Mutual Funds. Historically, they have all had higher rates of returns AND less risk because you can spread your risk across several classes. If the price of gold drops you are left with overpriced metal that you must hold hoping the price goes back up. Like those that bought at $1000 an ounce will now have to hang on to it. They can not sell it without taking a loss. That alone makes metal risky.

In my circumstance Rick, I could care less what value gold or silver is at, or for that matter what I pay for it.

I don't buy PM,s as an investment, I buy it as insurance.

[BraggSurvivor]

but i am here to help offer solutions to peoples questions not whine about what if.

Who's whining? I thought this was a discussion board?

[Sam Reeves]

Are you ready? KS, Roth IRA, Mutual Funds. Historically, they have all had higher rates of returns AND less risk because you can spread your risk across several classes. If the price of gold drops you are left with overpriced metal that you must hold hoping the price goes back up. Like those that bought at $1000 an ounce will now have to hang on to it. They can not sell it without taking a loss. That alone makes metal risky.



Oops. I should have said that alone makes metal risky TO ME. Sorry.

Buying gold at an inflated price is a bad investment just like anything else. Gold is and always will be more stable than the stock market, especially since Uncle Sam will not be able to financially prop up the companies that 401ks and Mutual Funds are invested in.

Roth IRAs are a great investment since the taxes are pre-paid. You never know what the government is going to actually take out in taxes when you cash in retirement funds.

[wareagle69]

Who's whining? I thought this was a discussion board?

you make me laugh BS of course it is a discussion board but.......

[Rick]

Sam, that's true. Gold is more stable. That's why stock classes offer higher yield. More risk pays high dividends.

[Sam Reeves]

sam i have not read your posts about gold i was refering to other posts you are new to me here.
what i look for here are solutions there seems to be at least two schools of thought here that i can see the outdoor primitive skills member and the financial survival member most here fit into both catagories but more predomonatley in one or the other.I'm just an ole country boy that educated himself in finance after he was offered a 401k several years ago. I'm much more at home in the woods. :)


i am curious what will happen when /if the ecomony does crash do these people have the ability to survive, did they prepare all ways did save cash on hand did they store food? did they make their dwelling safe and the same to the one who think buging out will be like spending a week at camp or hunting how well do they think they will be able to hunt or fish some say they are sucsessful every time(hogwash) how will they do when they have to do it every day for a living and have they prpared to go without meat do they knw how to, i prepare both way read my motto again i make it my mantra ALWAYS BE PREPARED-PREPARE ALL WAYS but i am here to help offer solutions to peoples questions not whine about what if.

I don't believe folks can prepare for anything if they have become a slave to debt to the point to where they can no longer properly sustain themselves. Survival gear and stocks are expensive. I don't believe at least 2% of a person income is to much to spend on survival things. I see that you have bought yer self a 80 homestead. I'm currently looking at a 32 acre farm in Kentucky.

[Rick]

Bragg - I don't see the difference. It's semantics. Call it whatever you want. If you have to use it what's to say it won't cost a bar to buy a loaf of bread? Suitcases of dollars were needed for bread in the depression is some places. Price and cost are relative things. $1000 an ounce is nothing more that a group of stodgy old men from the London Fix saying that's what it's worth. It's just an arbitrary number. And the trading is regulated by the IMF, the same good folks that are about to overhaul the international gold trade and put another 400 tons of gold into the market.

[Sam Reeves]

Sam, that's true. Gold is more stable. That's why stock classes offer higher yield. More risk pays high dividends.

Risks in the 1950s were a good thing. Risks in 2008..well...

The thing about gold is that as the dollar plunges silver and gold gain value. That's why it is/was so expensive recently.

Gold will always be redeemable.

[Rick]

Of course, and vice versa. Folks turn to stability when the economy is unstable. They return to stocks when the yield is high. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Buffet has both in his portfolio(s).

I agree. Gold will always be a medium of exchange but like everything else at what price? (that's not a slam to gold just a statement).

[wareagle69]

i am trying to learn what the land has to teach me, so much to learn especialy for someone who comes from the mountains and the desert, i spend probably 10% on survival every week either on food or equipment or paying off debt or on savings

[BraggSurvivor]

400 tons of gold into the market

Thats 400 tons of Futures..... big difference. Paper is useless.

[wareagle69]

Bragg - I don't see the difference. It's semantics. Call it whatever you want. If you have to use it what's to say it won't cost a bar to buy a loaf of bread? Suitcases of dollars were needed for bread in the depression is some places. Price and cost are relative things. $1000 an ounce is nothing more that a group of stodgy old men from the London Fix saying that's what it's worth. It's just an arbitrary number. And the trading is regulated by the IMF, the same good folks that are about to overhaul the international gold trade and put another 400 tons of gold into the market.

which is why i invest in wheat and flower and learning how to make my own bread and even better learning how to use wild edobles to make my provisions now that is an investment with high dividends

[Rick]

Please. Send that worthless paper to me. Please. I'll take it off your hands. What's that? It's not THAT useless? Sure it is. I'll take all you can send and I'll pay for shipping.:rolleyes:

[Sam]

Sometimes I really wish I could take a pill that would make me one of the functioning idiots in society who can stroll through life without having to think for themselves. I could blame any and all big corporations/persons and only one side of the political spectrum for all that is perceived to be wrong in my life.

But alas, I haven't drank enough alcohol to get me there yet!

I am where I am because of the choices I have made. I don't go round blaming people I don't know for my life. I pay cash for stuff, and don't use plastic. If I need to get something by mail or pay for something I get a gift card so I won't have to worry about someone screwing with my credit. I need to change a little though, I met a girl that may want to marry me. And I need to think about more than myself.

[Rick]

Gang, I'm calling it a night. To leave on a positive note, I appreciate all of your positions and enjoy cussin' and discussin' this stuff. I don't see a right way and wrong way in the investment game. As I say, the important thing is you have your sights set on SOMETHING. Any one of us or all of us may guess wrong in the end and as Hopeak said earlier today, we ain't takin' it with us. I appreciate your positions and appreciate you tolerance. Have sweet dreams, kids.

[wareagle69]

i have adopted this methods latly partly because of these forums, i pay cash for most every thing when i cash my chech i take out what i need for the week, i pay all my bills thru the teller, two things work in my favor cash no one can track what i am buying and no one can steal my id

[Sam Reeves]

Of course, and vice versa. Folks turn to stability when the economy is unstable. They return to stocks when the yield is high. Nothing wrong with that.If I am understanding correctly that is exactly how not to make money with stocks. Buy low, sell high. Impulse investing is suicidal in the stock market.
I'm sure Buffet has both in his portfolio(s). Warren Buffet and Bill Gates are strange characters. From what I hear they are leaving all the money to African aid. Yet the frigging Rothchilds who orchestrated the whole are leaving the fund nothing. Rich folks are just weird.


I agree. Gold will always be a medium of exchange but like everything else at what price? (that's not a slam to gold just a statement).
Gold will always be worth something. The reason it took a wheel barrel of paper money to buy bread during 1930s Germany is because it was not back by any gold at all. FDR seized all the gold in America at that time so he back his money with gold. Precious metals will always be in high demand.

[Sam Reeves]

i am trying to learn what the land has to teach me, so much to learn especialy for someone who comes from the mountains and the desert, i spend probably 10% on survival every week either on food or equipment or paying off debt or on savings

And that is a beautiful thing.

[Sam Reeves]

Please. Send that worthless paper to me. Please. I'll take it off your hands. What's that? It's not THAT useless? Sure it is. I'll take all you can send and I'll pay for shipping.:rolleyes:

The American dollar ain't completely useless...yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_currency_union

.

[wareagle69]

as far as precious metals always being in high demand i hope so i live in one of the best mining areas in the world, you should see what a kid with no education makes here at the mine plus nickel bonus is insane about 30,000 a year thats just the bonus folks not the pay, so i'm getting out of the plumbing buisness and going to work for either xstrata or valle inco or maybe fnx but either way this town will stay on track for the forseable future..

[Sam Reeves]

as far as precious metals always being in high demand i hope so i live in one of the best mining areas in the world, you should see what a kid with no education makes here at the mine plus nickel bonus is insane about 30,000 a year thats just the bonus folks not the pay, so i'm getting out of the plumbing buisness and going to work for either xstrata or valle inco or maybe fnx but either way this town will stay on track for the forseable future..

Dang. I may just move over there.

[wareagle69]

this little ol mining town that folks always laughed at now has the best economy in canada with the lowest uneployment best real estate and growth potential

[Sourdough]

One thing that some here may not realize, is that there is a point that the value, up or down does not matter. I understand what Bragg means when he says the value does not matter, profit, loss, flat, that it exists outside that.(Gold & Silver)

I find it odd that people get angry at Bragg, as he seems to be trying to help, and most successful businessmen have information worth hearing.

Not one person in this conversation has said they, think we are headed for smooth sailing. Everyone seems to feel some level of apprehension.

Like the old hippie song, "Do what you want to do". We are better for the conversation.

[Sam Reeves]

this little ol mining town that folks always laughed at now has the best economy in canada with the lowest uneployment best real estate and growth potential

My experience with growth has not been a pleasant one.

[BraggSurvivor]

I usually come home in mid-afternoon to wife who has perfect hair,
a cocktail dress on, and my favorite beverage ready.......

I sit about still in my suit and tie discussing our middle class life's
aspirations and how fortunate we are to have 4 vehicles and 4
swell kids in private school.... our next vacation to OAHU... my recent win
of the country clubs golf event.

The wife is President of both the PTA and Garden Club......plus was
voted mother of the year and is a finalist in Mrs. Canada.......

I myself belong to the ELKS, VFW, Masonic Lodge.... auxiliary IRS
auditors and snitches.... young and older Conservatives,,,,,plus the League
of Decency and Censors for the Holy Rollers of North America.

I have a degree in Financial Engineering and the wife is a Marine
Biologist about to graduate at age 37............

We are for Open Borders... GAY Marriage... Baghdaddy AID.... and
a dominant presence in the Middle East lasting hundreds of years or till all the oil runs out

More later about our political views.....


Thank You.


(I don't think they get mad at me hopeak, just wishing they were me is all)
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

When America starts bailing out Automotive industries, Airlines and banks it is leaning heavily towards Market Socialism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism


.

I was gonna chime in on all the important differences inherent in a true market socialist state. now i'm not. there are a lot of intelligent guys on here, so i'll just sit back and see where this goes :)

[Sam Reeves]

I was gonna chime in on all the important differences inherent in a true market socialist state. now i'm not. there are a lot of intelligent guys on here, so i'll just sit back and see where this goes :)

America has been becoming increasingly socialist since WWII. Hopefully some will chime in on that as well. :D

[Sourdough]

Sam, you one of them thar airoplane dirvers. Is that a C-185....?

See how skillfully I can hi-jack a thread.

[BraggSurvivor]

Socialism is for the rich......

A government which has the power to do good also has the power to destroy. A government which has the power to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich has the power to do the opposite.

How have the last 40 years treated those in the bottom 4/5 of the income and wealth quintiles in inflation-adjusted terms, even under the reign of your beloved Vichy Democrats and especially as measured vs. the fortunes of the top 1-2%? I rest my case.

Sure, the polls will throw those with little means a bone to get their vote, but they will turn around and take much more than that away from them with their inflationary monetary and fiscal policies and other policies which ultimately serve to transfer wealth up the food chain.

Look at your "progressive" social security tax as one of many examples. A tax which picks the pockets of those barely scraping by and transfers that money to the wealthiest segment of the population.

[Sam Reeves]

Sam, you one of them thar airoplane dirvers. Is that a C-185....?Cessna 172. Built before I was even born. Scouts like a champ.


See how skillfully I can hi-jack a thread.Actually all you had to do around here is mention bacon.

[BraggSurvivor]

I happened to catch CNBC the other morning and for once, they had a couple of guests on that were not the usual talking heads. The first was David Walker, who is the CEO of the new Peter J. Peterson Foundation (www.petergpetersonfoundation.org). This guy served nine years as the US Comptroller General and head of the GAO and a stint as Public Trustee for Social Security and Medicare. He also was Assistant Secretary of Labor for Pension and Welfare Benefit Programs and served as Acting Executive Director of the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

The other guest was Peter G. Peterson. the 80+ year old guy who endowed the Foundation with a billion dollar donation. Peter G. Peterson is the co-founder of the Blackrock Group Management, LLC investment management firm.

The Mission statement of the Foundation is as follows:

The mission of The Peter G. Peterson Foundation is to enhance public understanding of the nature and urgency of selected key sustainability challenges that threaten America’s future, to propose sensible and workable solutions to address these challenges and to build public will to do something about them.

It acknowledges that the US is on financial quicksand and is headed for disaster due to unsustainable health care and social security entitlements, the current account deficit, the budget deficit, energy supply problems, and the crisis in education.

That the Foundation does not address the root problem of the Fed and fiat currency is understandable, given that the backgrounds of Peter G. Peterson and David Walker are intimately connected to powerhouse Wall Street banking and investment firms. However, it is encouraging that at least some organization with some financial clout is acknowledging the problems that the Congress and the politicians have pretended are not worrisome enough to make radical changes to government operations.

Walker was asked which presidential candidates had viable solutions for these immense problems and his reply was that none of them did. "We need solutions from non-politicians" was his claim, implying that partisan politics could never grapple with these problems, since a politician's first care is in getting re-elected and making any promise necessary to do that. Finding the hard solution is not conducive to getting re-elected, at least in the minds of the present Congressional and Executive branches of the government.

While Walker was making prognostications of doom, citing facts and figures that I have known about about for quite a while, the CNBC hosts faces got longer and longer and there was a lot of head shaking going on. Although I knew much of these facts already, it was very sobering hearing it from a guy like Walker who was a longtime and prominent Fed official.

IMO their intent and efforts are admirable but I'm afraid futile. I think Peterson is throwing away a billion of his dollars. The majority of American people are brainwashed and the country is run by criminals. The system is corrupt to the core. It's way past the point that it can be reformed in any way.


Here's part of the Peterson & Walker interview:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=751573252

[Sam Reeves]

More Whiners.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080524/D90S5MLG0.html

[DOGMAN]

The sad part is that government is no long able to provide for the people they will be looking to folks such as yourself.

"Hey Bragg, Can borrow a cup of sugar and, um, a couple of weeks worth of groceries and some of that firewood, too? Thanks."

That is the way its always been Sam. People pay for the government (taxes). Then the government "redistrubutes" in how ever they see fit.
Remember the old saying "It's not what your country can do for you- it's what can you do for your country"

[Sam Reeves]

That is the way its always been Sam. People pay for the government (taxes). Then the government "redistrubutes" in how ever they see fit.No, that's not how it has always been. Something about 'Taxation without Representation' comes to mind.

Remember the old saying "It's not what your country can do for you- it's what can you do for your country"Didn't he get shot about two weeks after he insisted that the 'government adopt a monetary system based on the silver standard instead of the FED.

[DOGMAN]

'Taxation without Representation'
Does Georgia not have elected officials now?

[Sam Reeves]

'Taxation without Representation'
Does Georgia not have elected officials now?

Sure we do. They just don't do what they were elected to do. Would you like to see the current governor's track record?

[DOGMAN]

Nah, I'll pass on the Governor of Georgia's track record. All I am saying is that- the people have been paying for the government for a long time. I have given the gov't a heck of a lot of money thus far in my life.
And in return I have been educated (somewhat anyway) protected (mostly) and allowed the opportunity to pursue happiness in life. I still believe in the American dream.

[Sam Reeves]

Nah, I'll pass on the Governor of Georgia's track record. All I am saying is that- the people have been paying for the government for a long time. I have given the gov't a heck of a lot of money thus far in my life.
And in return I have been educated (somewhat anyway) protected (mostly) and allowed the opportunity to pursue happiness in life. I still believe in the American dream.

People all over the world say the same thing concerning their crooked neck of the woods.

Everybody loves to declare themselves a freedom loving American. I have to wonder if they would have fought the Revolutionists or stood shoulder to shoulder with the Loyalist in 1780.

Exactly how did the government afford you opportunity to pursue happiness where anywhere else would not have?

Not trying to be cocky just wondering what yer opinion is on that.

[Rick]

I find it odd that people get angry at Bragg, as he seems to be trying to help, and most successful businessmen have information worth hearing.

I, for one, don't get the least bit upset. I enjoy the repartee and often learn something valuable. That's why I participate. Bragg always has something worth hearing whether I agree with it or not.


America has been becoming increasingly socialist since WWII. Hopefully some will chime in on that as well.

Couldn't agree more! Stop by any large city's ER and you can see socialist medicine in action. Sad.... Doesn't mean I believe in your theory about the market but your statement here is certainly true.


Look at your "progressive" social security tax as one of many examples. A tax which picks the pockets of those barely scraping by and transfers that money to the wealthiest segment of the population.

Not sure how you figure that. It's based on the number of credits you earned while working. Up to four a year. This year is one credit for every $1000 you earn to a total of $4000 or 4 credits. Once you earn 40 credits you are eligible to receive social security at retirement (Currently that's $160,000 lifetime or ten years assuming you make at least $4000 a year). And, of course, there are caps on the amount of money you can make through social security so the rich are actually penalized, which is what the program was designed to do (help those without). Then you have to add the disability section and the dependent child section (loss of a parent).

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

The majority of American people are brainwashed and the country is run by criminals. The system is corrupt to the core.

you don't seriously believe that now do you? I know a handful of politicians, and I go to school with many that are pursuing that track, all with honorable intentions. To say that the country is both run by criminals AND is corrupt to the core is incredibly offensive to all the people trying (sometimes succeeding) to do good. I for one still believe that our system of checks and balances work. For verification, one need only examine the slew of cases against the CIC, Rumsfeld and the like, including the onslaught of litigation on its way once immunity runs.

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

How have the last 40 years treated those in the bottom 4/5 of the income and wealth quintiles in inflation-adjusted terms, even under the reign of your beloved Vichy Democrats and especially as measured vs. the fortunes of the top 1-2%?

This is capitalism man! There's an inherent great divide. Some work harder, some have better connections, the vast majority of the 1-2%ers were born into the money. Who says they (the top), or the government, have to even things out completely? Nobody, and that's the beauty of it. Furthermore, many of us are not happy with the handouts to the bottom 20%ers as is. The lady and I are both students, and easily within that bottom 20% right now. I'm not complaining! I'm SADDLED with student loans. Law school's expensive, private law schools financially crushing! But even as a bottom 20%er, I was still given that opportunity. I'll get out, make that comfortable living, she'll do the same, maybe we'll make some wise investments, and then voila, we went from bottom 20 to top 20 in half a lifetime. The system works, for the right person. The guy who sits on his duff is never gonna be as comfortable as the guy who puts in the work. Personally, I like it that way.:D

[Rick]

I guess I would challenge you to point to a country that is utopia. Every system and country has class distinctions.

[BraggSurvivor]

The American dream:

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4840432044369494646&q=maxed+out&ei=0ok5SNn2AYyErgO4t7nhAw

[Sam Reeves]

Couldn't agree more! Stop by any large city's ER and you can see socialist medicine in action. Sad.... Doesn't mean I believe in your theory about the market but your statement here is certainly true. Unfortunately The American Health care is supposed to be one of America's bright spots. I hear they want to socialize Medicare officially now as well.




Not sure how you figure that. It's based on the number of credits you earned while working. Up to four a year. This year is one credit for every $1000 you earn to a total of $4000 or 4 credits. Once you earn 40 credits you are eligible to receive social security at retirement (Currently that's $160,000 lifetime or ten years assuming you make at least $4000 a year). And, of course, there are caps on the amount of money you can make through social security so the rich are actually penalized, which is what the program was designed to do (help those without). Then you have to add the disability section and the dependent child section (loss of a parent).

To the best of my understanding they are going to exhaust most of it before I reach retirement age. :(

[Sam Reeves]

I guess I would challenge you to point to a country that is utopia. Every system and country has class distinctions.

I'm no longer a believer in perfection. It's a silly notion but I do believe in continuous improvement and preventative maintenance. ;)

[BraggSurvivor]

you don't seriously believe that now do you? I know a handful of politicians, and I go to school with many that are pursuing that track, all with honorable intentions. To say that the country is both run by criminals AND is corrupt to the core is incredibly offensive to all the people trying (sometimes succeeding) to do good. I for one still believe that our system of checks and balances work. For verification, one need only examine the slew of cases against the CIC, Rumsfeld and the like, including the onslaught of litigation on its way once immunity runs.


Yes.

I'm truly sorry you feel incredibly offended.

Time to suck it up buttercup. Like I said, it's only gonna get worse. ;)

[Rick]

The American dream:

How fortunate the American Dream only occurs in America. Good thing there aren't any Canadians' maxed out.:rolleyes:


To the best of my understanding they are going to exhaust most of it before I reach retirement age.

Without some near drastic changes it will still be there but with reduced benefits. Your scheduled benefits could be reduced by 22 percent and could continue to be reduced every year thereafter from presently scheduled levels.

I never counted on SS to be there for me but I can't imagine a politician that would have the gumbas to stop the program. I think some fix will be put in place before then.

Here is a quote from SSA:

"Social Security was never meant to be the sole source of income in retirement. It is often said that a comfortable retirement is based on a "three-legged stool" of Social Security, pensions and savings. American workers should be saving for their retirement on a personal basis and through employer-sponsored or other retirement plans."

Good advice in my book.

[LeaveThisLifeGuy]

Yes.

I'm truly sorry you feel incredibly offended.

Time to suck it up buttercup. Like I said, it's only gonna get worse. ;)

damn canadians!:D

[Rick]

What do you expect from a guy that chose a pussy cat for an avatar? I mean, come on.

[BraggSurvivor]

How fortunate the American Dream only occurs in America. Good thing there aren't any Canadians' maxed out.

Is there really a border between us?

Canadians are as bad or worse as what is happening in the US.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/personalfinance/debt.html

[Rick]

I sort of picture a Mexican and an American walking toward Canadian customs right after TSHTF.

"No Hablo, Canadian."
"Bueno. Not bad for a gringo. Again."
"No Hablo, Canadian."

[DOGMAN]

I love Canadians....our neighbors to the North have produced such great things as Pamela Anderson, Mike Meyers, and Canada's favorite son Brian Adams. I don't think they've contributed much more to the world than those three. oh wait theres RUSH and Michael J Fox, but other than that they don't do much other than make us laugh and entertain us- they're kind of like puppies.

[Ken]

I sense a border war is about to break out .......:eek:

[Sam Reeves]

I love Canadians....our neighbors to the North have produced such great things as Pamela Anderson, Mike Meyers, and Canada's favorite son Brian Adams. I don't think they've contributed much more to the world than those three. oh wait theres RUSH and Michael J Fox, but other than that they don't do much other than make us laugh and entertain us- they're kind of like puppies.

LMWAO

That's funny.

[Rick]

Man, do you know how close Montana is to Canada? It's like this far (measures with finger and thumb). There will be Canadian ninjas at your house before the holiday week-end is over. Wait, it's not Memorial Day in Canada. Sooner than I thought.

[Sourdough]

I love Canadians....our neighbors to the North have produced such great things as Pamela Anderson, Mike Meyers, and Canada's favorite son Brian Adams. I don't think they've contributed much more to the world than those three. oh wait theres RUSH and Michael J Fox, but other than that they don't do much other than make us laugh and entertain us- they're kind of like puppies.

And what country has the second largest proven oil reserves......in the world...???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[yellowcab]

обло (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/6157)151.7 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/225)(р�д (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/156)Bett (http://eyesvisions.com/better-eyesight-magazine-better-eyesight-1929-10)Швид (http://factoringfee.ru/t/806500)Fran (http://filmzones.ru/t/297300)BAFT (http://gadwall.ru/t/359294)по�т (http://gaffertape.ru/t/725569)Юрко (http://gageboard.ru/t/830418)Sant (http://gagrule.ru/t/336679)Кре� (http://gallduct.ru/t/819289)Jose (http://galvanometric.ru/t/395101)Silv (http://gangforeman.ru/t/347789)Отеч (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/760783)XVII (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1002157)
Яхь� (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/280423)Morl (http://gascautery.ru/t/850654)Поль (http://gashbucket.ru/t/422493)евеп (http://gasreturn.ru/t/850180)Ring (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/559589)мо�к (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/857016)Бета (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/816244)пато (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/675703)Pete (http://geartreating.ru/t/662696)Jazz (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/568749)�рти (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/559171)Deko (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/559836)Creo (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/139737)Word (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/139792)Expe (http://getthebounce.ru/t/138514)
Троф (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/673042)Дет� (http://habituate.ru/t/759276)Kami (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/356831)Кале (http://hackworker.ru/t/678391)Norm (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/685632)Свам (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/674147)Byza (http://hailsquall.ru/t/143106)Sham (http://hairysphere.ru/t/472611)Salt (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/561493)Pale (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/562473)Pale (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/562606)Моро (http://haltstate.ru/t/473328)Henr (http://handcoding.ru/t/654326)XVII (http://handportedhead.ru/t/852057)�ерт (http://handradar.ru/t/561900)
Beau (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/138384)Кита (http://hangonpart.ru/t/456162)Ð�вде (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/557084)Boro (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/395559)Орло (http://hardasiron.ru/t/484281)Петр (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/566739)Unit (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/567369)Omsa (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/141108)grad (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/601377)Dizz (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/527976)Jewe (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/168202)ВаÑ�и (http://headregulator.ru/t/479336)Монд (http://heartofgold.ru/t/774982)Соде (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/395983)Ð*еме (http://heatinggas.ru/t/815949)
Дани (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/754681)Niki (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/602723)gunm (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/601594)Witt (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/606249)Quik (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/603282)Hund (http://jobstress.ru/t/603265)Degr (http://jogformation.ru/t/608040)у�ло (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/672586)Кули (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/787879)Side (http://journallubricator.ru/t/536968)Jewe (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/529035)Pete (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/514707)Rame (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/355298)Conc (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/352920)Gust (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/674431)
Meta (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/650874)Swar (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/610118)Stef (http://kentishglory.ru/t/672798)Chri (http://kerbweight.ru/t/654043)мен� (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/605761)губе (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/479739)нейр (http://keyserum.ru/t/676961)diam (http://kickplate.ru/t/158079)Happ (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/605005)мен� (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/605766)Zone (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/609077)план (http://kinozones.ru/film/8605)Seik (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/610952)Zone (http://kneejoint.ru/t/605135)�ере (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/611961)
разг (http://knockonatom.ru/t/607182)Zone (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/604952)Хайе (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/663743)Play (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1093357)Phil (http://laborracket.ru/t/263790)Шпик (http://labourearnings.ru/t/497532)McKi (http://labourleasing.ru/t/727160)де�н (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/832472)Волк (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/808990)И�по (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/832832)Ходы (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/819394)Tutt (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/520322)Мак� (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/431108)�бор (http://laggingload.ru/t/479960)архи (http://laissezaller.ru/t/487692)
Фили (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/432830)Ð*аби (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/380113)Шатр (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/594777)Erle (http://lamphouse.ru/t/742483)Expl (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/469414)Vale (http://lancingdie.ru/t/394438)Glas (http://landingdoor.ru/t/623648)XVII (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/761518)Конд (http://landreform.ru/t/761015)Jame (http://landuseratio.ru/t/742731)пров (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/762046)фарф (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1161037)клей (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/590238)меÑ�Ñ� (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/254)прои (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/590392)

[yellowcab]

Вино (http://laterevent.ru/shop/1178668)Hans (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/453184)Hans (http://layabout.ru/shop/452386)Джоу (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/180414)rett (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/105651)More (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/464930)Delp (http://leaveword.ru/shop/464988)Godd (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/194389)Wall (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/505573)пла� (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/195444)Кита (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/268028)Olme (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/270456)Pier (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/305869)Слющ (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/160068)PEUG (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/613820)
Good (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/598282)проб (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/2827)Regg (http://mp3lists.ru/item/8341)Кита (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/575354)Herl (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/104990)Edit (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/461267)камн (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/501471)Куль (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/302556)пазз (http://navelseed.ru/shop/101133)�зык (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/454928)Звер (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/175238)ATME (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/186158)Diod (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/507239)Berl (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/108854)Smil (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/9860)
Siem (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/98590)Chou (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/175827)Roya (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/1149866)защи (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/148315)Библ (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/201083)ЛитÐ* (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/148460)king (http://onesticket.ru/shop/578919)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/580901)Лари (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/683224)ЛитÐ* (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/682200)ИÑ�то (http://palmberry.ru/shop/495941)Hist (http://papercoating.ru/shop/582509)Agat (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/688210)Лузи (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1167504)Фети (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1167559)
Ð�едо (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1166654)Jose (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1171264)Сарк (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1539255)Vico (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/490509)Серг (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/594391)Laug (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/596480)xecu (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1070683)коро (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1072870)Коро (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/317138)Isra (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/508654)Pony (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/517086)Фрол (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/513012)Jour (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/888815)Ð*ежи (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1078201)ауди (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/317983)
wwwd (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/513217)XXVI (http://rearchain.ru/shop/641309)(вед (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/516535)Иван (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/880107)Хамр (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1053916)Голу (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1062136)мате (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1679600)Кудр (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1693189)Pame (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1760240)Карт (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1198862)Кон� (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1814155)Wind (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1054224)учит (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1067143)Маль (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1436401)набл (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1462628)
худо (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1492161)Куба (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1462552)мате (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1493858)Wind (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1323627)Baja (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1383106)Март (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1481745)Буши (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/316609)Башк (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/399400)Chri (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/400481)Давы (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/467987)ме�� (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/254)ме�� (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/254)ме�� (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/254)Tint (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/482752)Кита (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/490144)
Фили (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/498127)Tamb (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/483002)Крыл (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/487184)Хюнн (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/498833)Alla (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1821400)Крут (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1879807)Лари (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/662860)Пыла (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/342630)Ки�е (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/400467)Davi (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/979922)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Part (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/980284)Russ (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/483070)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://audiobookkeeper.ru)инфо (http://cottagenet.ru)инфо (http://eyesvision.ru)инфо (http://eyesvisions.com)инфо (http://factoringfee.ru)инфо (http://filmzones.ru)инфо (http://gadwall.ru)инфо (http://gaffertape.ru)инфо (http://gageboard.ru)инфо (http://gagrule.ru)инфо (http://gallduct.ru)инфо (http://galvanometric.ru)инфо (http://gangforeman.ru)инфо (http://gangwayplatform.ru)инфо (http://garbagechute.ru)
инфо (http://gardeningleave.ru)инфо (http://gascautery.ru)инфо (http://gashbucket.ru)инфо (http://gasreturn.ru)инфо (http://gatedsweep.ru)инфо (http://gaugemodel.ru)инфо (http://gaussianfilter.ru)инфо (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru)инфо (http://geartreating.ru)инфо (http://generalizedanalysis.ru)инфо (http://generalprovisions.ru)инфо (http://geophysicalprobe.ru)инфо (http://geriatricnurse.ru)инфо (http://getintoaflap.ru)инфо (http://getthebounce.ru)
инфо (http://habeascorpus.ru)инфо (http://habituate.ru)инфо (http://hackedbolt.ru)инфо (http://hackworker.ru)инфо (http://hadronicannihilation.ru)инфо (http://haemagglutinin.ru)инфо (http://hailsquall.ru)инфо (http://hairysphere.ru)инфо (http://halforderfringe.ru)инфо (http://halfsiblings.ru)инфо (http://hallofresidence.ru)инфо (http://haltstate.ru)инфо (http://handcoding.ru)инфо (http://handportedhead.ru)инфо (http://handradar.ru)
инфо (http://handsfreetelephone.ru)инфо (http://hangonpart.ru)инфо (http://haphazardwinding.ru)инфо (http://hardalloyteeth.ru)инфо (http://hardasiron.ru)инфо (http://hardenedconcrete.ru)инфо (http://harmonicinteraction.ru)инфо (http://hartlaubgoose.ru)инфо (http://hatchholddown.ru)инфо (http://haveafinetime.ru)инфо (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru)инфо (http://headregulator.ru)инфо (http://heartofgold.ru)инфо (http://heatageingresistance.ru)инфо (http://heatinggas.ru)
инфо (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru)инфо (http://jacketedwall.ru)инфо (http://japanesecedar.ru)инфо (http://jibtypecrane.ru)инфо (http://jobabandonment.ru)инфо (http://jobstress.ru)инфо (http://jogformation.ru)инфо (http://jointcapsule.ru)инфо (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru)инфо (http://journallubricator.ru)инфо (http://juicecatcher.ru)инфо (http://junctionofchannels.ru)инфо (http://justiciablehomicide.ru)инфо (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru)инфо (http://kaposidisease.ru)
инфо (http://keepagoodoffing.ru)инфо (http://keepsmthinhand.ru)инфо (http://kentishglory.ru)инфо (http://kerbweight.ru)инфо (http://kerrrotation.ru)инфо (http://keymanassurance.ru)инфо (http://keyserum.ru)инфо (http://kickplate.ru)инфо (http://killthefattedcalf.ru)инфо (http://kilowattsecond.ru)инфо (http://kingweakfish.ru)инйо (http://kinozones.ru)инфо (http://kleinbottle.ru)инфо (http://kneejoint.ru)инфо (http://knifesethouse.ru)
инфо (http://knockonatom.ru)инфо (http://knowledgestate.ru)инфо (http://kondoferromagnet.ru)инфо (http://labeledgraph.ru)инфо (http://laborracket.ru)инфо (http://labourearnings.ru)инфо (http://labourleasing.ru)инфо (http://laburnumtree.ru)инфо (http://lacingcourse.ru)инфо (http://lacrimalpoint.ru)инфо (http://lactogenicfactor.ru)инфо (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru)инфо (http://ladletreatediron.ru)инфо (http://laggingload.ru)инфо (http://laissezaller.ru)
инфо (http://lambdatransition.ru)инфо (http://laminatedmaterial.ru)инфо (http://lammasshoot.ru)инфо (http://lamphouse.ru)инфо (http://lancecorporal.ru)инфо (http://lancingdie.ru)инфо (http://landingdoor.ru)инфо (http://landmarksensor.ru)инфо (http://landreform.ru)инфо (http://landuseratio.ru)инфо (http://languagelaboratory.ru)инфо (http://largeheart.ru)инфо (http://lasercalibration.ru)инфо (http://laserlens.ru)инфо (http://laserpulse.ru)

[yellowcab]

инфо (http://laterevent.ru)инфо (http://latrinesergeant.ru)инфо (http://layabout.ru)инфо (http://leadcoating.ru)инфо (http://leadingfirm.ru)инфо (http://learningcurve.ru)инфо (http://leaveword.ru)инфо (http://machinesensible.ru)инфо (http://magneticequator.ru)инфо (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru)инфо (http://mailinghouse.ru)инфо (http://majorconcern.ru)инфо (http://mammasdarling.ru)инфо (http://managerialstaff.ru)инфо (http://manipulatinghand.ru)
инфо (http://manualchoke.ru)инфо (http://medinfobooks.ru)инфо (http://mp3lists.ru)инфо (http://nameresolution.ru)инфо (http://naphtheneseries.ru)инфо (http://narrowmouthed.ru)инфо (http://nationalcensus.ru)инфо (http://naturalfunctor.ru)инфо (http://navelseed.ru)инфо (http://neatplaster.ru)инфо (http://necroticcaries.ru)инфо (http://negativefibration.ru)инфо (http://neighbouringrights.ru)инфо (http://objectmodule.ru)инфо (http://observationballoon.ru)
инфо (http://obstructivepatent.ru)инфо (http://oceanmining.ru)инфо (http://octupolephonon.ru)инфо (http://offlinesystem.ru)инфо (http://offsetholder.ru)инфо (http://olibanumresinoid.ru)инфо (http://onesticket.ru)инфо (http://packedspheres.ru)инфо (http://pagingterminal.ru)инфо (http://palatinebones.ru)инфо (http://palmberry.ru)инфо (http://papercoating.ru)инфо (http://paraconvexgroup.ru)инфо (http://parasolmonoplane.ru)инфо (http://parkingbrake.ru)
инфо (http://partfamily.ru)инфо (http://partialmajorant.ru)инфо (http://quadrupleworm.ru)инфо (http://qualitybooster.ru)инфо (http://quasimoney.ru)инфо (http://quenchedspark.ru)инфо (http://quodrecuperet.ru)инфо (http://rabbetledge.ru)инфо (http://radialchaser.ru)инфо (http://radiationestimator.ru)инфо (http://railwaybridge.ru)инфо (http://randomcoloration.ru)инфо (http://rapidgrowth.ru)инфо (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru)инфо (http://reachthroughregion.ru)
инфо (http://readingmagnifier.ru)инфо (http://rearchain.ru)инфо (http://recessioncone.ru)инфо (http://recordedassignment.ru)инфо (http://rectifiersubstation.ru)инфо (http://redemptionvalue.ru)инфо (http://reducingflange.ru)инфо (http://referenceantigen.ru)инфо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru)инфо (http://reinvestmentplan.ru)инфо (http://safedrilling.ru)инфо (http://sagprofile.ru)инфо (http://salestypelease.ru)инфо (http://samplinginterval.ru)инфо (http://satellitehydrology.ru)
инфо (http://scarcecommodity.ru)инфо (http://scrapermat.ru)инфо (http://screwingunit.ru)инфо (http://seawaterpump.ru)инфо (http://secondaryblock.ru)инфо (http://secularclergy.ru)инфо (http://seismicefficiency.ru)инфо (http://selectivediffuser.ru)инфо (http://semiasphalticflux.ru)инфо (http://semifinishmachining.ru)инфо (http://spicetrade.ru)инфо (http://spysale.ru)инфо (http://stungun.ru)инфо (http://tacticaldiameter.ru)инфо (http://tailstockcenter.ru)
инфо (http://tamecurve.ru)инфо (http://tapecorrection.ru)инфо (http://tappingchuck.ru)инфо (http://taskreasoning.ru)инфо (http://technicalgrade.ru)инфо (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru)инфо (http://telescopicdamper.ru)инфо (http://temperateclimate.ru)инфо (http://temperedmeasure.ru)инфо (http://tenementbuilding.ru)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)инфо (http://ultramaficrock.ru)инфо (http://ultraviolettesting.ru)

[yellowcab]

лучш (http://audiobookkeeper.ru/book/5160)327.4 (http://cottagenet.ru/plan/440)глаз (http://eyesvision.ru/lectures/288)Tabl (http://eyesvisions.com)Забе (http://factoringfee.ru/t/1203175)Крав (http://filmzones.ru/t/1039085)Симо (http://gadwall.ru/t/1198472)XXII (http://gaffertape.ru/t/1102710)реги (http://gageboard.ru/t/1095862)Mari (http://gagrule.ru/t/1024290)visu (http://gallduct.ru/t/1163433)Юлье (http://galvanometric.ru/t/1239778)Зиль (http://gangforeman.ru/t/1252268)Попо (http://gangwayplatform.ru/t/1636473)Prak (http://garbagechute.ru/t/1212304)
Tesc (http://gardeningleave.ru/t/1042108)Clas (http://gascautery.ru/t/1144471)Rich (http://gashbucket.ru/t/1043681)Бело (http://gasreturn.ru/t/1147071)Thom (http://gatedsweep.ru/t/976732)John (http://gaugemodel.ru/t/1229938)Крым (http://gaussianfilter.ru/t/1252225)Doze (http://gearpitchdiameter.ru/t/1090550)Банн (http://geartreating.ru/t/1085169)Вита (http://generalizedanalysis.ru/t/1076885)Keep (http://generalprovisions.ru/t/1096309)Иллю (http://geophysicalprobe.ru/t/1050109)Terr (http://geriatricnurse.ru/t/1074054)Patr (http://getintoaflap.ru/t/1144861)Бали (http://getthebounce.ru/t/835828)
Hici (http://habeascorpus.ru/t/1088663)Gott (http://habituate.ru/t/1092436)Dori (http://hackedbolt.ru/t/1205002)Char (http://hackworker.ru/t/1249468)Cont (http://hadronicannihilation.ru/t/1103208)Мага (http://haemagglutinin.ru/t/1096264)Bose (http://hailsquall.ru/t/974440)Миль (http://hairysphere.ru/t/1082337)лучш (http://halforderfringe.ru/t/941482)�коп (http://halfsiblings.ru/t/999154)заве (http://hallofresidence.ru/t/926798)Bald (http://haltstate.ru/t/928042)Blan (http://handcoding.ru/t/1027670)�рти (http://handportedhead.ru/t/1143566)Publ (http://handradar.ru/t/852058)
caus (http://handsfreetelephone.ru/t/955410)Gill (http://hangonpart.ru/t/1028429)по�в (http://haphazardwinding.ru/t/834765)Moto (http://hardalloyteeth.ru/t/638298)Горд (http://hardasiron.ru/t/724757)Отеч (http://hardenedconcrete.ru/t/946849)Mano (http://harmonicinteraction.ru/t/971020)Заик (http://hartlaubgoose.ru/t/819679)Гала (http://hatchholddown.ru/t/917327)�бор (http://haveafinetime.ru/t/1376752)и�ку (http://hazardousatmosphere.ru/t/1067705)чита (http://headregulator.ru/t/1459474)Modo (http://heartofgold.ru/t/1547709)Carl (http://heatageingresistance.ru/t/1010082)�епо (http://heatinggas.ru/t/1249194)
Fleu (http://heavydutymetalcutting.ru/t/1182768)Pete (http://jacketedwall.ru/t/768613)худо (http://japanesecedar.ru/t/811814)Carl (http://jibtypecrane.ru/t/1245998)�бор (http://jobabandonment.ru/t/760602)Кузь (http://jobstress.ru/t/795690)Push (http://jogformation.ru/t/1028310)Прои (http://jointcapsule.ru/t/1147895)Arkt (http://jointsealingmaterial.ru/t/1148294)Jack (http://journallubricator.ru/t/1223364)�ерт (http://juicecatcher.ru/t/1147892)Sela (http://junctionofchannels.ru/t/1180661)Stan (http://justiciablehomicide.ru/t/1182161)Крот (http://juxtapositiontwin.ru/t/1183506)Pali (http://kaposidisease.ru/t/1180291)
моне (http://keepagoodoffing.ru/t/1181376)Зубк (http://keepsmthinhand.ru/t/785362)Howa (http://kentishglory.ru/t/1183374)Feli (http://kerbweight.ru/t/1180141)XVII (http://kerrrotation.ru/t/789138)Горю (http://keymanassurance.ru/t/759492)Niki (http://keyserum.ru/t/1181175)Мель (http://kickplate.ru/t/1322329)Ð*рма (http://killthefattedcalf.ru/t/1246670)Карх (http://kilowattsecond.ru/t/1049033)фото (http://kingweakfish.ru/t/1242763)дожи (http://kinozones.ru/film/7608)XVII (http://kleinbottle.ru/t/1169677)Bonu (http://kneejoint.ru/t/1124258)друг (http://knifesethouse.ru/t/1711194)
Mart (http://knockonatom.ru/t/977022)Spot (http://knowledgestate.ru/t/1203442)Rudo (http://kondoferromagnet.ru/t/1377865)Ð*два (http://labeledgraph.ru/t/1245683)теат (http://laborracket.ru/t/1245695)Zone (http://labourearnings.ru/t/1548773)зака (http://labourleasing.ru/t/1548456)Zone (http://laburnumtree.ru/t/1190868)Zone (http://lacingcourse.ru/t/1189526)Ñ�ере (http://lacrimalpoint.ru/t/1188803)Zone (http://lactogenicfactor.ru/t/1187143)Zone (http://lacunarycoefficient.ru/t/1193796)Zone (http://ladletreatediron.ru/t/1192226)Zone (http://laggingload.ru/t/1190526)Zone (http://laissezaller.ru/t/1192170)
Zone (http://lambdatransition.ru/t/1192212)Zone (http://laminatedmaterial.ru/t/1193804)Chet (http://lammasshoot.ru/t/1184473)42A5 (http://lamphouse.ru/t/1185361)Zone (http://lancecorporal.ru/t/1185303)Zone (http://lancingdie.ru/t/1186745)Chet (http://landingdoor.ru/t/1188933)Alle (http://landmarksensor.ru/t/1256581)R079 (http://landreform.ru/t/1187198)Zone (http://landuseratio.ru/t/1185516)Zone (http://languagelaboratory.ru/t/1191323)пале (http://largeheart.ru/shop/1782560)И�ае (http://lasercalibration.ru/shop/1708417)MPEG (http://laserlens.ru/lase_zakaz/1412)Lieb (http://laserpulse.ru/shop/1030342)

[yellowcab]

Taiz (http://laterevent.ru/shop/154789)Tosh (http://latrinesergeant.ru/shop/451542)Carp (http://layabout.ru/shop/600904)Amaz (http://leadcoating.ru/shop/1327144)Ждан (http://leadingfirm.ru/shop/462858)Bonu (http://learningcurve.ru/shop/794491)Dali (http://leaveword.ru/shop/1026631)Люби (http://machinesensible.ru/shop/446988)�рти (http://magneticequator.ru/shop/861775)4901 (http://magnetotelluricfield.ru/shop/789409)Sand (http://mailinghouse.ru/shop/556717)Мак� (http://majorconcern.ru/shop/788888)мрам (http://mammasdarling.ru/shop/1142693)Volk (http://managerialstaff.ru/shop/613774)обор (http://manipulatinghand.ru/shop/1175778)
Сури (http://manualchoke.ru/shop/1179336)меди (http://medinfobooks.ru/book/1830)Inst (http://mp3lists.ru/item/7344)тек� (http://nameresolution.ru/shop/1486102)ки�т (http://naphtheneseries.ru/shop/1033815)�лед (http://narrowmouthed.ru/shop/462927)�ним (http://nationalcensus.ru/shop/1206807)Blan (http://naturalfunctor.ru/shop/861889)набл (http://navelseed.ru/shop/454001)Кита (http://neatplaster.ru/shop/460262)REBU (http://necroticcaries.ru/shop/186201)Wind (http://negativefibration.ru/shop/652110)mail (http://neighbouringrights.ru/shop/653176)кра� (http://objectmodule.ru/shop/471829)Sasc (http://observationballoon.ru/shop/10286)
Slee (http://obstructivepatent.ru/shop/1032574)City (http://oceanmining.ru/shop/484903)Инди (http://octupolephonon.ru/shop/143133)Дере (http://offlinesystem.ru/shop/150885)ЛитÐ* (http://offsetholder.ru/shop/1254150)мышл (http://olibanumresinoid.ru/shop/288224)ЛитÐ* (http://onesticket.ru/shop/583935)ЛитÐ* (http://packedspheres.ru/shop/585213)Шило (http://pagingterminal.ru/shop/689445)доку (http://palatinebones.ru/shop/690346)ЛитÐ* (http://palmberry.ru/shop/956296)Bete (http://papercoating.ru/shop/682216)Моги (http://paraconvexgroup.ru/shop/1049602)Иван (http://parasolmonoplane.ru/shop/1690987)кошк (http://parkingbrake.ru/shop/1176716)
Wind (http://partfamily.ru/shop/1378064)Печа (http://partialmajorant.ru/shop/1489603)Бабу (http://quadrupleworm.ru/shop/1544885)�у�з (http://qualitybooster.ru/shop/1606534)Сави (http://quasimoney.ru/shop/599642)SVEN (http://quenchedspark.ru/shop/913479)Мака (http://quodrecuperet.ru/shop/1145234)Стуч (http://rabbetledge.ru/shop/1421500)Дубр (http://radialchaser.ru/shop/1458135)Unde (http://radiationestimator.ru/shop/517402)Гор� (http://railwaybridge.ru/shop/863179)Yevg (http://randomcoloration.ru/shop/930760)Dieg (http://rapidgrowth.ru/shop/1078599)поко (http://rattlesnakemaster.ru/shop/1401247)техн (http://reachthroughregion.ru/shop/1503731)
ауди (http://readingmagnifier.ru/shop/520939)Step (http://rearchain.ru/shop/879636)(Ком (http://recessioncone.ru/shop/912601)книг (http://recordedassignment.ru/shop/1654788)Ð�ики (http://rectifiersubstation.ru/shop/1659993)пере (http://redemptionvalue.ru/shop/1667904)раÑ�к (http://reducingflange.ru/shop/1689756)Соко (http://referenceantigen.ru/shop/1714130)Ладо (http://regeneratedprotein.ru/shop/1773570)Бакл (http://reinvestmentplan.ru/shop/1776985)тетр (http://safedrilling.ru/shop/1822696)Ð*аки (http://sagprofile.ru/shop/1827907)план (http://salestypelease.ru/shop/1856056)Ð*риа (http://samplinginterval.ru/shop/1881693)Lume (http://satellitehydrology.ru/shop/1918486)
УÑ�пе (http://scarcecommodity.ru/shop/1930984)Brow (http://scrapermat.ru/shop/1950236)Ñ�тер (http://screwingunit.ru/shop/1963853)Форм (http://seawaterpump.ru/shop/1973385)Фони (http://secondaryblock.ru/shop/1462538)Фаыч (http://secularclergy.ru/shop/1497545)БрÑ�д (http://seismicefficiency.ru/shop/1560597)Тепл (http://selectivediffuser.ru/shop/1643922)Mich (http://semiasphalticflux.ru/shop/1679608)люби (http://semifinishmachining.ru/shop/1695213)MPEG (http://spicetrade.ru/spice_zakaz/1412)MPEG (http://spysale.ru/spy_zakaz/1412)MPEG (http://stungun.ru/stun_zakaz/1412)прир (http://tacticaldiameter.ru/shop/487748)Ð*азм (http://tailstockcenter.ru/shop/1762129)
Davi (http://tamecurve.ru/shop/1772987)Лапп (http://tapecorrection.ru/shop/1776207)Bria (http://tappingchuck.ru/shop/491675)Грин (http://taskreasoning.ru/shop/504819)Кири (http://technicalgrade.ru/shop/1855353)Ludw (http://telangiectaticlipoma.ru/shop/1901777)хран (http://telescopicdamper.ru/shop/1957953)изда (http://temperateclimate.ru/shop/872842)Геро (http://temperedmeasure.ru/shop/922689)Конд (http://tenementbuilding.ru/shop/985858)tuchkas (http://tuchkas.ru/)Шабу (http://ultramaficrock.ru/shop/986458)wwwr (http://ultraviolettesting.ru/shop/488181)