Oetzi The Iceman clothes and gear .........

[hunter63]

......Had both wild and domestic animal DNA......

So even 5200 years ago, one didn't always live off wild game alone.....As in "ROTTW"......


http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37094141?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

[kyratshooter]

They are not taking into consideration that the species mentioned as "domestic" might have been the wild ancestors of modern domestics and would have been hunted as wild animals during that era but would show up as just another cow, sheep or goat in the testing.

We still have wild goats and sheep available today, though wild cattle are a scarce commodity if you do not count the longhorn cattle of the southwest brush country that can get wild and aggressive if left to their own devices.

I suspect that sheep and goats were among the earliest of domestics since there is evidence of their presence in the earliest of settlements in the mid-east dating back to nearly 10,000 BC.

[crashdive123]

Oh, there's plenty of wild cattle around. I seem to recall this bar in downtown Bremerton, WA............Bremeloes is what I believe they were called. :innocent:

[hunter63]

Beer googles.....
Seems the point is....thing haven't changed much....some town-ees?...as well as the hunters .....or at least came together in groups... kept animals, as well as hunted..... at least "gathered" enough hide to make clothing and gear.

I don't know why, but found this interesting....
Also advanced enough to make use of copper for tools and weapons....

[WalkingTree]

the species mentioned as "domestic" might have been the wild ancestors of modern domestics and would have been hunted as wild animals during that era
I was thinking the same thing when I read that. They should be careful with their epistemology.

And I think that their wording here is questionable...rather, the wording reveals a wrong thinking -

But Oetzi's motley wardrobe, including a coat made from at least four separate goat and sheep hides, could also suggest a more haphazard and desperate approach - stitching together whatever scraps of skin were available.
"But..."? A more haphazard and desperate approach? Whatever were available? "But" in contrast to what? Haphazard and desperate...as opposed to what? Living like that, being resourceful and creative as always, is haphazard and desperate? "But" it is haphazard and desperate? I guess Mr. Caveman was supposed to turn his nose up at a hide from the wrong animal, so that he can make everything match and be color-coordinated. Fashion was important then, and you wouldn't want to appear 'butch' or metrosexual. Need to go out of our way to find specific animals for our hides 'round here.

[hunter63]

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. They should be careful with their epistemology.

And I think that their wording here is questionable...rather, the wording reveals a wrong thinking -

"But..."? A more haphazard and desperate approach? Whatever were available? "But" in contrast to what? Haphazard and desperate...as opposed to what? Living like that, being resourceful and creative as always, is haphazard and desperate? "But" it is haphazard and desperate? I guess Mr. Caveman was supposed to turn his nose up at a hide from the wrong animal, so that he can make everything match and be color-coordinated. Fashion was important then, and you wouldn't want to appear 'butch' or metrosexual. Need to go out of our way to find specific animals for our hides 'round here.

Maybe he was a "Homeless caveman"...or an "Outlaw"...or maybe just a "Caveman's caveman"......LOL

No matter how they wrote it....I sure many writers today have a problem expressing them selves with out using emoji's...?

[Phaedrus]

I remember when he was first found! Initially there was speculation that he was a modern murder victim but scientists quickly discovered he had died around the time the pyramids were being started. Fascinating case to be sure!

[LowKey]

It's really very hard to today to find any writer of mass consumed media stories that doesn't interject their feelings and biases into their writing.

[Rick]

You can bet I'd never do that (support NRA). Those guys (black guns are cool) really don't deserve to (every state should be open carry) be called writers.

[kyratshooter]

Archaeologists, especially European ones, have great difficulty in interpreting outdoor gear when it is of primitive nature. They are normally no required to go outside.

They can not fully relate to the gear used for hunting with a bow because they have no reference point. Bow hunting is illegal in most of Europe.

Lack of a point of reference is a problem most academics have in any given field. Ever seen a college educated engineer try to climb a step ladder and change a light bulb?

I still remember when Oetzi was discovered. I was in history graduate school and we were discussing it in a seminar.

The professor was all; why was he there and why was he shot and why did they not take his axe since it was so valuable and why was his bow unfinished and why did he have no arrows?????

I remember looking at him and asking, "You have never been chased by a jealous husband have you?"

[crashdive123]

You can bet I'd never do that (support NRA). Those guys (black guns are cool) really don't deserve to (every state should be open carry) be called writers.

I see what you did there.

[Grizz123]

I've always enjoyed the Oetzi stories and speculations.

We will never know his true story but I have a few ideas
- He was a thief who was chased into the mountains and died from his wounds
- He was in battle and happened to escape capture but ended up dying from his wounds
- He was out hunting when he was attacked by an enemy who could not capture him
- He was hunting with buddies when some sort of accident happened causing the arrow to go into his shoulder (bad shot, tripping down a hill, etc...) and his buddies went for help but could not find him due to the incoming storm

I would love to see a tv series put together where they go through a different scenario as to what COULD have been his life story

[hunter63]

I'm going with the irate husband theory....and you don't dare take the ax, as you can't really go down to the copper ax store and "buy" one just like it.

Heck in small towns of families that have lived there for ever, you will hear....
"Say isn't that Papaw Jones's old .303 British,... I remember when he traded a cow for that?"....
"How did you get it?"

Having that ax would point to you as a bad guy.

[Rick]

Man, that is no ship. I remember that growing up very well. Dad would drive through at night and hit the air horns when he passed the DQ. Every kid in six counties knew that was my dad and at least 4 of them would let me know he just went through town. It was like a ritual.

[kyratshooter]

Yep, you have one of the only 100 or so copper axes in Europe and everyone knows who it belongs too!

Stealing that would be like stealing the SWAT team van and trying to disguise it with Walmart spray paint!

[Phaedrus]

My hypothesis has always been that he was wounded in a skirmish and escaped, only to die of his wounds later. Maybe he killed his foe/foes but they weren't so "fortunate" as to be preserved like Otzi was.

[Rick]

Or....it was a tattoo job gone horribly wrong. What? It's possible.

[hunter63]

Or....it was a tattoo job gone horribly wrong. What? It's possible.

That is possible.....he had like 61 Tats.....and no antibiotics.....?

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2015/01/30/scientists-mapped-otzi-icemans-61-tattoos/#.V7m6YdFTEcA

But you knew that right?.....

[LowKey]

They say from the location of the arrow wound he would have bled out in minutes. Doubtful he escaped from anything. Likely fell where he was hit.
http://www.iceman.it/en/how-oetzi-died

The arrow shaft itself would have been removed to avoid identification.

[kyratshooter]

Yes the arrow clipped an artery and he was dead in minutes according to the pathology.

The absence of the arrow, entering under the shoulder blade where he could not have removed it himself due to the position, was the reason I came up with the jealous husband theory.

Someone had to remove the arrow, but not take any of his other gear, including that most precious copper axe.

They wanted him dead, but they were not after his stuff.

Only three murder motives; sex, money, revenge.

Since they did not take his stuff it had to be one of the other two motives.

If it was a revenge killing due to a feud or insult they would have still taken trophies to prove their power.

Oetzi was a very private killing with no loot or trophies taken to show power or status. It was as if the killer did not want anyone to know it had happened. Payback for stealing a wife, or girlfriends affection they wanted no one to know happened. Especially true if Oetzi had been a well liked visitor in the village he was escaping from. Possibly too well liked by some?

Possibly more than one man wanted him dead! After all, Oetzi was getting out of Dodge in a hurry with half finished gear and not enough arrows, risking a trip through one of the most dangerous passes in the world during a snow storm. He was running from someone that was very mad or very powerful.

It is also possible that Oetzi was not the best shot in the world. Why else would his quiver hold only a couple of finished arrows. No one sits around town with an empty quiver, any hunter or warrior replaces lost arrows as quickly as possible, so surely Oetzi started his flight with a full quiver and used them up in a running fight. He then cut fresh arrow shafts to work on as he traveled.

So Oetzi was a craftsman of copper according to the arsenic in his blood stream, and possibly a Shepard according to the forensic analysis of his bones and organs, and lived in an agricultural based society centered on village life according to the contents of his stomach and the archaeological history of his area. He was an Austrian visiting Italy according to the isotopes in his bone structure.

A mysterious visitor from out of town with lots of tattoos, in a small village filled with what would one day become Italian chicks. Now that's just a recipe for disaster. Better lock up your women folks!

[Rick]

A mysterious visitor from out of town with lots of tattoos, in a small village filled with what would one day become Italian chicks. Now that's just a recipe for disaster.

Sounds like a sailor to me. Maybe even a bubblehead.

[crashdive123]

[/COLOR]

Sounds like a sailor to me. Maybe even a bubblehead.

Yeah, you're probably...................HEY! Wait a minute.

[WalkingTree]

Somebody oughta make a cool drama/adventure movie out of this.

[kyratshooter]

Somebody oughta make a cool drama/adventure movie out of this.

they can't, John Wayne is dead and Clint Eastwood and Charles Bronson are too old.

I can see Charles Bronson as Oetzi, Lee VanCleve as the jealous husband, Shopia Loren as the hot prehistoric Italian chick..

At least that is the way it would have been in the '70s.

[Rick]

Wait. What? Those folks are old? Man, that just ain't right. I have uttered Bronson's famous words in Battle of the Bulge on so many occasions. "Wait a minute. What the he!!?"

[harrypalmer]

Archaeologists, especially European ones, have great difficulty in interpreting outdoor gear when it is of primitive nature. They are normally no required to go outside.

They can not fully relate to the gear used for hunting with a bow because they have no reference point. Bow hunting is illegal in most of Europe.

Lack of a point of reference is a problem most academics have in any given field. Ever seen a college educated engineer try to climb a step ladder and change a light bulb?

I still remember when Oetzi was discovered. I was in history graduate school and we were discussing it in a seminar.

The professor was all; why was he there and why was he shot and why did they not take his axe since it was so valuable and why was his bow unfinished and why did he have no arrows?????

I remember looking at him and asking, "You have never been chased by a jealous husband have you?"

Wow, one of the most ill informed replies I've ever seen on a forum regardless of topic, I presume your American LOL and clearly have no idea what happens in the real world.

[kyratshooter]

Wow, one of the most ill informed replies I've ever seen on a forum regardless of topic, I presume your American LOL and clearly have no idea what happens in the real world.

Mr Palmer I know you from a couple of the British forums and see that you are starting with a big bang here.

Good luck with that.

[crashdive123]

Well, he just ended his tenure here.




http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii67/crashdive123/Forum%20Fun/8d1fb4a4-9abd-402f-b9f8-9c8ef28213e4_zps98022409.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/crashdive123/media/Forum%20Fun/8d1fb4a4-9abd-402f-b9f8-9c8ef28213e4_zps98022409.jpg.html)

[walks.in2.trees]

Yes the arrow clipped an artery and he was dead in minutes according to the pathology.

The absence of the arrow, entering under the shoulder blade where he could not have removed it himself due to the position, was the reason I came up with the jealous husband theory.

Someone had to remove the arrow, but not take any of his other gear, including that most precious copper axe.

They wanted him dead, but they were not after his stuff.

Only three murder motives; sex, money, revenge.

Since they did not take his stuff it had to be one of the other two motives.

If it was a revenge killing due to a feud or insult they would have still taken trophies to prove their power.

Oetzi was a very private killing with no loot or trophies taken to show power or status. It was as if the killer did not want anyone to know it had happened. Payback for stealing a wife, or girlfriends affection they wanted no one to know happened. Especially true if Oetzi had been a well liked visitor in the village he was escaping from. Possibly too well liked by some?

Possibly more than one man wanted him dead! After all, Oetzi was getting out of Dodge in a hurry with half finished gear and not enough arrows, risking a trip through one of the most dangerous passes in the world during a snow storm. He was running from someone that was very mad or very powerful.

It is also possible that Oetzi was not the best shot in the world. Why else would his quiver hold only a couple of finished arrows. No one sits around town with an empty quiver, any hunter or warrior replaces lost arrows as quickly as possible, so surely Oetzi started his flight with a full quiver and used them up in a running fight. He then cut fresh arrow shafts to work on as he traveled.

So Oetzi was a craftsman of copper according to the arsenic in his blood stream, and possibly a Shepard according to the forensic analysis of his bones and organs, and lived in an agricultural based society centered on village life according to the contents of his stomach and the archaeological history of his area. He was an Austrian visiting Italy according to the isotopes in his bone structure.

A mysterious visitor from out of town with lots of tattoos, in a small village filled with what would one day become Italian chicks. Now that's just a recipe for disaster. Better lock up your women folks!
Back then, killing someone in jealousy or revenge was not a reason to hide the killing... They would have brought his body to town and displayed it as a warning, taken his gear as spoils and maybe even told the story to their grandkids if the event was memorable enough... Unless he was very popular I guess... He was probably a rockstar who could do no wrong, he was a copper-smith... So EVERYONE probably would have been pissed if some jealous guy who was losing attention from the ladies to this outsider just outright killed their ONLY copper-smith... So they went on a "hunting trip" and only one of them went home with a story about being attacked by dragons... Barely escaped if it weren't for the copper-smith selflessly drawing the attack onto himself...

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

[hunter63]

Mr Palmer I know you from a couple of the British forums and see that you are starting with a big bang here.

Good luck with that.

That was quick....spend the afternoon weed whacking and DRAMA (ship) happens....LOL

[kyratshooter]

Yea, I went to the village, bought gas for the mower and a burger, mowed the front lawn and he was gone!

[crashdive123]

Back then, killing someone in jealousy or revenge was not a reason to hide the killing... They would have brought his body to town and displayed it as a warning, taken his gear as spoils and maybe even told the story to their grandkids if the event was memorable enough... Unless he was very popular I guess... He was probably a rockstar who could do no wrong, he was a copper-smith... So EVERYONE probably would have been pissed if some jealous guy who was losing attention from the ladies to this outsider just outright killed their ONLY copper-smith... So they went on a "hunting trip" and only one of them went home with a story about being attacked by dragons... Barely escaped if it weren't for the copper-smith selflessly drawing the attack onto himself...

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

Back then there were no towns. Just sayin..............

[kyratshooter]

The investigators also discovered that he had taken a bad beating just before he got out of Dodge.

Seems there were some unhealed bone breaks and other evident trauma.

So he was beaten, run out of the village, then hunted down and shot like a dog.

Someone was really pi$$ed!

[Rick]

Maybe he escaped...almost.

[walks.in2.trees]

The investigators also discovered that he had taken a bad beating just before he got out of Dodge.

Seems there were some unhealed bone breaks and other evident trauma.

So he was beaten, run out of the village, then hunted down and shot like a dog.

Someone was really pi$$ed!
Tribe...Town... Herd, pack, flock, Yoga class... A social group is a social group and they all have the same checks and balances.

Maybe there was a bit too much arsenic, eh? And he wasn't quite right upstairs? I don't recall if arsenic poisoning does that, but, maybe there was lead involved too

Back then there were no towns. Just sayin..............


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[walks.in2.trees]

Maybe he tried to start a group hug and talk about his feelings...

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

[crashdive123]

maybe there was lead involved too


He probably never got the recall notice for the lead based paint he was using for his cave paintings. That danged T-Rex express just wasn't all that reliable........kept running off to chase food.

[hunter63]

Not invented yet....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMlcgT5EJzE