Living off the land - Would you?

[tunick001]

Sort of like Dick Proenneke and "Into The Wild" style. I've always had a fantasy of a going to some remote untrampled place like Idaho or Montana or Alaska and living off the land and escaping from it all. Going up there with plenty of supplies like shelter, clothes, food. Maybe build a log cabin. But eventually the food is going to run out so I'll have to start fishing and hunting. It might be sort of hard to do though once winter starts.

[MMonette]

I like the idea and sometimes i have the same idea only difference is i would want to predominately live off the land and get some stuff from a nearby town cause i can't identify edible plants (ect) for my life.

[DOGMAN]

Well, I live in the mountains of Montana. In a cabin (I didn't build it) with only wood burning heat, I have to run sled dogs to get home in the winter (or to get to my truck to go town) And, I have a couple of freezers full of Elk and Deer that I eat for most meals. I also have chickens and a small garden. However, I don't feel like Dick or McCandless. Unfortunatly, I still have to work to pay my mortgage (its hard to find free property) and to buy all my other supplies. Having to work really keeps you tied to society. Honestly, I don't know if its still really possible to live as Dick did in this modern era. I know a few guys that come close, but it is damn hard. I wish you the best of luck.

[crashdive123]

If you think about it, we all live off the land. It's just that most of us get a little help. But to answer your question - would I?....yes, but I'd have to learn alot more than I know now. I've got no plans to be completely self sufficient living off the land because I kind of like my life now. Learning more and knowing how are always good things.

[klkak]

When I was young after my father died and my step dad left us. My mother, sisters and I Pretty much lived off the land. Wild game made up our protein. Our fruits and vegetable came from the garden and everything else came from the government warehouse in town. Firewood for heating and cooking and quite often in the winter I had to pack water down from the spring when the black plastic pipe that my step dad never got around to burying froze. For me living off the land is like a full time job. Now I live in a house in a small community. I don't feed the fireplace anymore, it takes to much birch and spruce to get me through the winter. I found it was cheaper and less arduous to use natural gas. I guess I'm good right where I'm at. I know I could do it if I had to. However I don't have to.

[DOGMAN]

I know I could do it if I had to. However I don't have to.


Perspective is funny isn't it. "I don't have to" that speaks volumes. I know what you mean, some people fantasize about living "off the land" but when you have to it isn't always so romantic.

I wouldn't change my life much...but, I am thinking about having a second source of heat for my place. Heating with wood is great except when you wake up and everything is frozen, or you just worked a 14 hour day then, it took you almost 2 hours to get home to a frozen house and no kindling.

And, I hate to admit it, but sometimes I get tired of eating elk. But, all in all I am very happy with my life. There are things I can improve, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

[Mountaintrekker]

We just finished a 2 year stint living "semi" off the land. It's pretty darn tough. You can't leave too long in the winter because everything will freeze. In the summer we couldn't leave for too long because people would steal our stuff.
We had to haul water all the time, we collected snow in the winter and melted it on our wood stove. It takes a lot of snow to make 5 gallons of water!
When the wind would blow at 50mph for 3 days and the temp was minus 20 without the wind chill you really start thinking if this was the right move. Just keeping the place warm and you fed is a full time job. I couldn't imagine cutting all our firewood without a chainsaw. I think I would have collapsed or something.
Having the chimney back up with the wind just right and smoke you out of the cabin at those temps at 2am is something I'll never forget. Nor miss!
Using an outhouse in those cold temps is nothing fun either, now throw in a dose of the flu with that and I'll take indoor plumbing any day.
We shot a lot of deer our first winter, 4 if I recall. Doing the butchering etc. without running water is a long and tedious job.
We still had to go to town every 3 months or so for some groceries. You need salt, sugar, flour, soap, some condensed milk, dry oats, veggies, some liquor:D etc. We even had solar panels to power our laptop (some dvd watching and games), little fridge/freezer and a couple of compact florescent light bulbs. We also had books and crafts and each other and winter was still long and driving us a bit batty. I couldn't imagine what it would have been like alone. BTW we did this without gov't welfare or SS checks or any regular income. I did odd jobs with my tractor in the summer and my sweetie waited tables at a diner 15 miles away for a month or two in the summer as well.
It was tough but we learned quite a bit. I don't think most people exposed to the "modern world" are capable of really living off the land entirely. I think you would end up living a primitive existence and looking like a wild man pretty quick, not to mention a bit of malnutrition.
Doing it is tough, doing it alone is nuts in my book. Why do you think most primitive cultures (many still today) do it in groups? Dick Proenneke still had supplies flown in to him and mail service. While his living out there the way he did is commendable (my hats off to him) he was not entirely living off the land.
You still need to pay property taxes in most places which is a kick in the butt. The feds don't have too much land left that isn't taxed.
You can drastically reduce your yearly expenses down to almost nothing though by supplementing your food and heat, maybe a marketable craft or skill from the wilds. That's kind of what we are going to do in Alaska on our next run at it. We still need that little bit of society for us to make it work. For us anyway. A bit of a social life with like minded folks would be ideal this go around.
I by no means mean to discourage anyone from trying, I say go for it and more power to you! Unfortunately our government doesn't like people going and living for free, and they make it especially tough for anyone trying to be independent of their system. Basically you need some form of revenue generation to pay those taxes and buy staples.
I'm sure folks like Montana_musher and Klkak and others would agree?
Sorry for rambling on.... it's late.

[canid]

in some ways i know i'd do it if it killed me, but i prefer to be partially dependent, if you know what i mean.

[klkak]

I like topics like this. They make you really think about how your life was, is and could be. Depending on the choices you make.

[Alpine_Sapper]

I do live off the land....My apartment is on the third floor.

[Riverrat]

I am living off the land as much as I want to right now. We grow most of our veggies, hunt for our meat, and I love to fish, trout and salmon. We heat our house with wood, have a furnace in the basement, and that keeps it warm for a the day when we are away. For now this is great for us.

[Ole WV Coot]

I grew up at the end of a hollow in Eastern KY. Everyone had big gardens, canned stuff, had the usual domestic animals. I remember before electricity, outhouse, no phone, heated with a coal stove. Almost everyone I knew was in the same boat, didn't know we were suppose to be poor until I grew up and went out on my own. Looking back it was great, we kids lived in the woods, never wore shoes or anything but a pair of shorts all summer and learned lots from folks born back in the late 1800s(grandpa was born in 1895). I would go back if I could. If the body held together I could easily.

[Rick]

It's one thing to look at the pretty pictures and say, "Boy, I think I'll live there." It's something else to do it. I have no illusions. I've posted elsewhere that I could not do it. Having the knowledge to live that lifestyle isn't enough. Having the desire and the health to do it is also a requirement. I think Mountain Trekker was quite eloquent in his description. No, sir. Not me. I love to visit but I don't want to live there. I think those of you that do are a different breed apart and you have my utmost respect. I'm happy right where I am.

[Aurelius95]

Amen, Rick! Couldn't agree more with you. I enjoy dipping into their world, but I like coming back to mine, as well. As Rick stated, "I think those of you that do are a different breed apart and you have my UTMOST RESPECT."

[LadyTrapper]

Would most certainly love to try...however it will be after the kids have grown and are on their own. My choice for this shouldnt be theirs...so I will wait and see how the future fairs us.

If you think of it, our forefathers knew nothing else but to live off the land...mother nature provides all we need to survive, though she may be a harsh land lord most times....we have simply lost the knowledge and heritage...it has been replaced with convenience and "things".

Luckily...or not so luckily(however you may see it)...living off the land is now a lifestyle "choice", not a way of life.

[Rick]

...we have simply lost the knowledge and heritage...

You are so right about that. That's the reason I'm here and that I spend time in the woods. We've replaced our ancient knowledge with new knowledge. I think there is room in our brains for both and I think there is a LOT of ancient knowledge that shouldn't be forgotten. It's served mankind well for millennium.

[DOGMAN]

Unfortunately our government doesn't like people going and living for free, and they make it especially tough for anyone trying to be independent of their system. Basically you need some form of revenue generation to pay those taxes and buy staples.
I'm sure folks like Montana_musher and Klkak and others would agree?
Sorry for rambling on.... it's late.

Your right on the money. I thought about this a lot last night after my initial posts. What could I have done different to lead a more simple life off the land, and not have to earn so much money to keep the dream afloat.

So, it made me remember Thoreau's experiement. Thoreau actually built his cabin on Ralph Waldo Emersons land, and exchanged labor for rent essentially. I think that is the secret...don't "own" your own land. Find a like minded person and exchange labor to build a small cabin on their place, and then help out and do chores at their place- a couple of hours a day would help them greatly and then allow you the rest of the time to meet your own needs. Also, if you could just walk over to work you would not need a vehicle so thats cutting a huge expense there as well. With no mortgage, and no vehicle expenses- life owuld be cheap. Odd jobs of dishwashing, occasional carpentry or the like could pay for your supplies. Simplify!

[Rick]

I think it's a great idea but the down side is you just built your home on someone else's property. If the two of you have a falling out the other person just acquired a small cabin and you are out in the cold.

[trax]

I've done 'living off the land' in varying degrees throughout my life, and I will again. I know that some supplies are going to have to come from town because producing them on my own isn't practical. What are the odds of a successful coffee bean crop in north/central Manitoba? Not much of a farmer at any rate, although I can tweak a few veggies out of the ground.


Providing meat, putting up the house, ensuring clean water supply and garbage and waste water elimination without screwing the environment, firewood for heat, I got all those covered in terms of knowing how I want it, what I want etc. Just got unfinished business in civilization like I've mentioned in other posts.

[Mountaintrekker]

There are ways to get back to a more natural or in touch with the wilderness lifestyle. We still want to do this, (my fiance and I). There are several ways you could approach it, but like everything, there are consequences.

1. You could go off into the wilds with the gear on your back and make a go of it. You would be squatting on gov't, blm or state land and would be ducking and hiding from the feds. You may make it for a bit, but you have that fear of getting caught and booted or arrested hanging over you.

2. You could do as Montana_Musher suggested and find a friend to work out some sort of arrangement with. Hopefully you will be able to generate a few dollars to buy staples with. Just don't piss off your buddy!

3. You could look for land to purchase outright that has no property taxes and make sure all of your resources are within walking distance. You will still need to buy hunting and fishing licenses to be legit. And the more you have, the more money it will take to maintain these items. Vehicles, plumbing, electricity, guns and ammo etc.

4. You could try and buy some land for cash and build a modest cabin. You will need to have some sort of revenue coming in. The key here is to hunt, fish grow a garden, maybe have some chickens or aquaponics to subsist on. You need to generate your own electricity and live very frugally. Indoor plumbing is a Godsend! Cut your own wood for heat and keep the monthly bills to a bare minimum or almost nil.

5. Live in a modern house with your electricity, water, heat, cable, phone,food etc. all provided by someone else and work 40+ hours a week to pay for it all. This isn't a bad thing, it's the norm. It's just not how I choose to live.

We are trying to go with option .4 at the moment. Trying to do it with a part time job is a bit of a pain as it detracts energy from your projects and everything takes longer. Short of winning the lottery or getting a sizable inheritance we have not found another way to do this. If you want to do this, the goal is to not overextend yourself. Have no debt! Only buy what you can afford so you are not required to go to work everyday to pay for things.
The other thing I was thinking about, if you choose options 1-5. Location, location, location! The farther you need to travel for work, food, water etc. the more tied into the system you will be. You will need a means of conveyance to get you there.
I think there is a symbiotic approach to melding ancient ways with our modern lifestyle. There has to be a lot of give and take... obviously. I think it can and should be done by whomever wants to. Our planet will thank us.
We are on this earth for a very short time and I don't want to spend the majority of it working a meaningless job making someone else rich and not seeing or experiencing what is means to be human. This is a wonderful place this earth, go out and experience it. Just respect your fellow man and never take more than you need.

It can be done.

[DOGMAN]

Mountaintrekker I like what your saying. Saving up and buying a land "out right" is a good solution. However, places like the mountainous regions of Montana, Wyoming and Idaho will be out of the reach for most folks, as land as very expensive. But, that is a good way to go if you can afford it. Alaska still has plenty of places with affordable land- so it is still the last frontier.
The struggle with this dream is really time vs money. It is hard to have both.

[grundle]

consider option 6? Live extremely frugally for 2 or 3 years while working two jobs and pushing all of that money into a renewable investment. Once it has reached a reasonable point it will produce a monthly income for you. Any money you do not use that money goes back into the fund making it grow even more.

I call this the short term sacrifice for long term satisfaction plan. I am currently working on it. I want to get to the point where I can take 2 years off "work" to pursue a dream or two and not be tied by economics. This is very possible, and I am a few years away from achieving it.

[DOGMAN]

Good idea Grundle...that is something I have really realized in the past few years- there are people that Work for their money and there are people that there money works for them. Achieving the latter really frees a person up to pursue dreams

[Mountaintrekker]

Grundle,
That is a good idea. I guess I kind of did that originally. I worked in the tech industry and used my money to buy some raw land in the wilds. We built on it and lived for next to nothing for 2 years now we are selling at a large profit and using that to get us to Alaska.
Good point, thanks for posting it! Now if I could just get something solid to pay me a nice monthly:)

[grundle]

I unfortunately am climbing out of a car loan, old credit card, and a current mortgage. The good part is I tore that credit card up about 2 years ago. I have decided to never take a loan on a car again (ever). And the mortgage I have re-financed to a fixed-rate TOP DOWN loan.

When I say "top down" I mean that the principle is applied to the NEXT payment, whereas almost all loans right now apply the principle to the LAST payment. That means the bastard mortgage companies are maximizing the amount of interest they are milking you for. Fortunately I found a decent company that allows me to pay twice a month, and apply the extra on my payments to the principle. My interest is automatically re-calculated after every payment.

Previously I was paying extra and I would have probably payed the house of in around 22 years. I am paying the same amount extra as before with this loan (which has a higher interest rate) and I will pay it off early in 15 years (rough estimate). That does not account for the money I will take from my current car and credit card payments to throw at the mortgage. I think I can get it payed off in about 5 - 8 years. From there all my money goes to investments to build up my renewable fund.

[sh4d0wm4573ri7]

I have had the pleasure and taste of both worlds as in all things it has it's plus and minusus. Hate to admit it but Iam lil spoiled to make it permenent and health aint what it used to be specially since I'm dependent on specs lol but man can dream

[wildWoman]

We've been living in the bush since 2005 and neither us nor any of the other 9 people I personally know who have been living in the bush for over a decade really "live off the land". It's a nice idea propagated by popular books and movies but that's pretty much it. The reality of living full-time, long-term in the wilderness is quite a bit different than book editors and movie makers would really like to have it.
We all fish and hunt and forage and garden, but that still leaves plenty of food items that need to be bought and brought in. And, as others pointed out already, you do need money, and the more of it, the more remote you live because transportation is going to cost you one way or another.
Earning money in the bush is the hardest thing of it all. I'd recommend to people who can think of ways to utilize the internet for $ making to get a satellite system for the bush. That way, you neither have to bring tourists in, nor go out on contracts, have peace and quiet.
So while it's a great life, don't believe all you read or watch on DVD. Talk to people who've been doing it for a long time if you're actually interested in how it really is, don't listen to the ones who did it for a one-year experiment that sent them back to the suburbs with their tail between the legs.

[klkak]

So while it's a great life, don't believe all you read or watch on DVD. Talk to people who've been doing it for a long time if you're actually interested in how it really is, don't listen to the ones who did it for a one-year experiment that sent them back to the suburbs with their tail between the legs.

Very good advice WildWoman.

[wildWoman]

Another thing to bear in mind - the north was populated by nomadic peoples for a reason: living year-round in the same spot meant starvation and death. The north is not what you'd call a lush ecosystem.
If anyone's interested in pondering the living off the land longterm idea, here's the list of groceries we buy every year, that we can't hunt or harvest; then consider if for the rest of your life you could do without them. Pasta, rice, cereal, oats, milk, cheese, barley, chick peas, lentils, peanut butter, butter, margarine, olive oil, sunflower oil, nutella, sugar, coffee, black tea, dried fruit, fresh fruit, some fresh veggies, flour, yeast, baking poweder, cornstarch, cocoa, lemon juice, juice, and spices. For two people, for a year, that costs about $2,300.-
Then there's dogfood - no we don't deplete the fish and moose stocks for the dogs; imagine home canning dog food!

[Rick]

Grundle - Good for you! You've set out your personal goals and defined how you are going to reach them. Not many folks do that then they wonder where it went wrong.

Think about not having a car loan for a moment. If you pay cash then you have lost not only the principle but also any interest you would have earned. If you take out a home equity loan then you still have the cash you would have spent, you still earn interest (on whatever investment vehicle you've chosen) and you can probably write the loan off on your taxes. That makes for a win win for you as long as you don't spend the cash on something else. You'll try, of course to earn more interest on your cash than you spend on the equity loan so you still come out ahead. Just earmark that cash for your car then you will have it if you choose at some point to get out of the loan or need to for whatever reason.

On the credit card debt, it's okay to cut up the card to keep you from using it but you may not want to close the account. Your credit score is judged on the amount of credit you have available and the credit load you carry. Closing the account means you will have LESS credit available and that might decrease your credit score. I hope that makes sense. You can call your credit card company every six months or so and ask them to lower your interest rate. If you've been a good customer, they will generally do that for you. Just make certain you get a fixed rate and not one based on the prime.

You've obviously taken the time to educate yourself and that really is the first step to independence. Thanks for posting that. It was an excellent post.

[trax]

Geez Rick, I didn't know you were grading us on these posts, kinda makes me want to try a little harder...nah, never mind.

[Rick]

Yap, yap, yap. The man made a good post. I didn't grade it. I congratulated him for having the foresight and fortitude (like those words?) to set his goals and stick to them.

[Stony]

I make a living of the land the past 20 years. forests, game, fish.
it makes money for me, we eat it. no big deal.
working the woods, guiding, fishing.....
you get the idea, don't you?

[dilligaf2u2]

Do I get to pick the land I live off of!

The area between the Starbucks and the Safeway would not be too hard to adjust too!

Don

[Rick]

See? It attitudes like Don's that will ensure survival of the specie. The man thinks out of the box. We will be hacking our way through swamps and he'll be eating bacon from Safeway and drinking fresh brewed coffee.

[Aurelius95]

I unfortunately am climbing out of a car loan, old credit card, and a current mortgage.

Previously I was paying extra and I would have probably payed the house of in around 22 years. I am paying the same amount extra as before with this loan (which has a higher interest rate) and I will pay it off early in 15 years (rough estimate). That does not account for the money I will take from my current car and credit card payments to throw at the mortgage. I think I can get it payed off in about 5 - 8 years. From there all my money goes to investments to build up my renewable fund.

Grundle, one thing to consider is once you have paid off your car and your credit card, use those payments to pay down additional principal on your mortgage. If your throwing, say, an extra $500 a month towards your house, it'll certainly cut into the time it takes to pay it off. (Not knowing what you pay on your car loan or credit card, I assumed $500 is safe- it may be more... or less).

[grundle]

Grundle, one thing to consider is once you have paid off your car and your credit card, use those payments to pay down additional principal on your mortgage. If your throwing, say, an extra $500 a month towards your house, it'll certainly cut into the time it takes to pay it off. (Not knowing what you pay on your car loan or credit card, I assumed $500 is safe- it may be more... or less).

I agree totally with you. That is what I said in my reply to Mountaineer in fact :D

[indiana joe]

that has been a dream of mine since i was little.
closes i have been to that is as a kid we had no electric cooked on open
fire all year long. fetch water from the creek and had rain barrels.
with a out house for a bathroom. showered in rain durring summer or
horse troth in winter heated water on wood burning stove.
are house had three walls completed 4th wall was blankets nailed to the
house.love it all what year was this 1884 nope this was in 1984

[Ridge Wolf]

Grundle - Good for you! You've set out your personal goals and defined how you are going to reach them. Not many folks do that then they wonder where it went wrong.

Think about not having a car loan for a moment. If you pay cash then you have lost not only the principle but also any interest you would have earned. If you take out a home equity loan then you still have the cash you would have spent, you still earn interest (on whatever investment vehicle you've chosen) and you can probably write the loan off on your taxes. That makes for a win win for you as long as you don't spend the cash on something else. You'll try, of course to earn more interest on your cash than you spend on the equity loan so you still come out ahead. Just earmark that cash for your car then you will have it if you choose at some point to get out of the loan or need to for whatever reason.

On the credit card debt, it's okay to cut up the card to keep you from using it but you may not want to close the account. Your credit score is judged on the amount of credit you have available and the credit load you carry. Closing the account means you will have LESS credit available and that might decrease your credit score. I hope that makes sense. You can call your credit card company every six months or so and ask them to lower your interest rate. If you've been a good customer, they will generally do that for you. Just make certain you get a fixed rate and not one based on the prime.

You've obviously taken the time to educate yourself and that really is the first step to independence. Thanks for posting that. It was an excellent post.

This is all fine Rick, but what if he loses his job.. and then they start calling on the phone.. and won't stop. Then is when the reverse of what you describe happens and they come in the middle of the night to repossess the car.. Forclosure is not a pleasant experience either.. even if he were to get another job... say for less income per month.. It happens and I know that for sure. Twice in my lifetime I have had to cash in 401K's to pay off bills.. no other option.. Damn economy / job market does it to us everytime.

So, I vote to get out of the darned debt and stay out of it... much better off in the long run.

[Rick]

I don't know where you get that. I said to reserve the cash he would have spent on the car. If he looses his job, he still has the option of using the reserve to make the car payments or pay the note off as I indicated. By not spending it, he not only retains the principle he also makes more money on the investment.


Just earmark that cash for your car then you will have it if you choose at some point to get out of the loan or need to for whatever reason.

[oregonoutdoorsman]

You said it, Location, location, location! I moved to a very mild climate on the coast of Oregon, when SHTF I know I will not freeze, I have Fresh prevailing winds, saltwater fishing and fresh water rivers.

This issue is are we talking when the power goes out and meyhem is in the cities or are we talking just cutting costs and living the most cost effective manner possible?

I loved North of Homer Alaska in our families cabin , it was brutal !!!! Winters were simply the Pits. Day light was a big issue for the first few years.
If we are talking about cutting cost's milt climates and an extra jacket has worked fine for me. The land I have is 5 ac. I have a wooded area and a stream behind my house. I searched for this. I am totaly off of all city utilities. I have also planted Eastern Wild turkeys here and Quail.

Raised Gardens and green house. I am pretty self suffciant. Clams on the beach at low tide and ling cod in the low tide pools, lots of crab, salmon steelhead and trout in the rivers.

If you have the opportunity plan for it. You that live in Ice country you run out of wood you're on the menu for the Donner Party.

I also raise Chickens, most of their feed comes from pieces of logs and plywood I lat flat on the ground alternating between them. I raise them and they eat the hundereds of bugs and worms under them.

[Rick]

Oregon. Several on here either live completely or mostly off grid. Others are in the process of migrating to that life style. Everyone talks about living like that. So the question posed is would you really do it? My answer was no.

[Jeffersonpaine]

Not only would I, i plan on doing it in the not so distant future.