Stolen Valor [Archive] - Wilderness Survival Forums

wilderness medic

06-13-2015, 09:11 PM

Just saw another "stolen valor" video that was on the news and I have a question for the vets here.

Does it really bother you that much? Why? I think it is absolutely hilarious. These guys look like garbage and are obviously fake.

I keep hearing all these guys on these videos "They didn't earn it." Earn what? It is a uniform, not a silver star, MOH, or any other award of valor. (Granted I know some of these guys are toting those too, but the focus always seems to be the uniform-even standard ACUS) All it takes is signing on the dotted line. I've seen straight up criminals and thugs serve, purely for a desire to "off" someone, some do it just because they are lost and need money, soldiers who are so far removed from combat they might as well be at Chuck-E-Cheese, etc.

Why is there so much focus on the uniform? People want to pretend, they're funny idiots to me.... Not someone i'm going to follow around town recording and harassing. I might crack a joke in front of a crowd or something but some of these videos look like harassment. If someone did that to me wether I was a vet or not I wouldn't be very nice and would tell them to kick rocks.

I say, let 'em dress up, if you want to embarrass them crack a joke in public. Until they are receiving compensation of some sort I don't see why people feel the need to follow them like i'm seeing. Even some threatening with violence. Especially in comments, although saying and doing are two different things...

What say you? Really that horrible and offensive?

hunter63

06-13-2015, 09:23 PM

wilderness medic

06-13-2015, 09:37 PM

I am not a vet.....many friends, MF and my family were as well as my FIL was a Paraplegic vet.
I would have thought you, being in a service profession would understand the meaning of service, and the valor that come with it.

Really sorry you feel that way.....but I do not agree with your assessment of the "Stolen Valor" sentiment.
I am disappointed.

I'm pretty much the odd one out in this case.

I do understand the meaning of service. I do not however understand why so many people think every person in uniform is valorous. There are some absolutely amazing heroic soldiers out there that everyone should strive to be like. But that does not mean everyone who has put on that uniform is. Even if that were the case, why does it seem the reaction is absolute hatred. My first reaction is laughter and something along the lines of "Aww, how cute, he wants to play dress up and seem cool, pretending is fun..."

Heroism is heroism. Do we stop people from walking around boasting of things they have done they really haven't? I stopped a mugger from robbing a women, ran into a dangerous situation and saved someones life etc... I hear people doing that all the time picking up on women, who cares? People will either see through it or not. If it stays at that level, it's just someone lying....lying is not illegal you are just a low life d-bag.

Can you actually explain WHY instead of just "I don't agree and am disappointed in you...." That was what I was looking for, an explanation so I can maybe understand it more.

hunter63

06-13-2015, 09:50 PM

As far as I am a concerned, I do not need to continue my opinion further....You have stated your feeling on the matter, I disagree....and I gonna leave it at that.

wilderness medic

06-13-2015, 09:52 PM

As far as I am a concerned, I do not need to continue my opinion further....You have stated your feeling on the matter, I disagree....and I gonna leave it at that.

Nothing like believing something you can't explain. :confused: Pretty much the normal response. Not an actual reason, just "because" and being appalled at the thought of not agreeing with everyone.

The class A's with medals I can understand a bit more. But average camo....nope.

hunter63

06-13-2015, 10:06 PM

Good luck with your position.....I will not be baited.
Y'all have a nice life.

wilderness medic

06-13-2015, 10:10 PM

Good luck with your position.....I will not be baited.
Y'all have a nice life.

Good god Hunter, I asked a question. It is not "baiting." I have nothing to gain from your response other than knowledge and possibly some understanding. Wow.

hunter63

06-13-2015, 10:19 PM

wilderness medic

06-13-2015, 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=wilderness medic;463506]Nothing like believing something you can't explain. :confused: Pretty much the normal response. Not an actual reason, just "because" and being appalled at the thought of not agreeing with everyone.

QUOTE]
You were doing Ok till this statement......Like I said, I'm done.....No reason to explain, or justify my feeling on this subject.
I disagree....Deal with it.
I think you are minimizing the lives spent defending your right to say what you want....That does "appall" me........ period.

Nah, i'm still doing ok as I can actually explain why I feel the way I do rather than saying "I don't need to explain."

Minimizing the lives spent. That's very bold of you to say considering I risked my life and my friends gave theirs for that right. Open discussion. If you didn't want to do so you could have remained out of my thread that I started specifically to DISCUSS and hear people thoughts on the subject. Instead you've chosen to get bent out of shape because someone doesn't agree with you. I have nothing to deal with, you are the one clearly offended over a question.

Nothing wrong with my quoted statement. All you have done is reinforce it. Typical response. Feel free to be "done" for real this time and keep out, especially if you are going to have the audacity to insinuate I don't value the lives spent defending mine and your freedom. Thanks.

Sarge47

06-13-2015, 11:22 PM

wilderness medic

06-13-2015, 11:33 PM

WM, Hunter is keeping his cool so this doesn't turn out bad and cause the thread to be locked or even deleted. It's obvious that he has very strong feelings on this subject and has declared where he stands on it; that is all he wants to say. So be it. Myself, I have never served, but not for lack of trying. If I did I'd feel the same way that Hunter does. "Stolen Valor" is what caused David Canterbury to get booted off of "Dual Survival," it's that important. I think you may have started something that will ultimately get this thread shut down, time will tell. But lay off those who don't wish to keep it going if you please....:cool2:

I am not trying to keep it going. Hunter has stated at least 3 times indicating he is done and has nothing more to say yet has come back to say something.

I fail to see how someone telling me I am minimizing the lives spent defending my freedom, after I actually served defending that, is "keeping his cool." That seems a little over the line to me as far as "playing nicely." If you are referring to my "especially if you have the ... to tell me" I have edited it to audacity. Other than that I do not see where I have broken the rules or said anything to get this deleted.

I wasn't laying ON anyone until Hunter said something I found to be crossing the line, and even still it was very mild. I didn't name call, or insult. Do with it what you will. I was hoping for a discussion to share thoughts, even if they weren't the same as mine. But apparently that's not for subjects people don't agree 100% with.

I see you have also commented on feeling the same with no explanation. But I guess you were chiming in on the debate between us more than the topic.

Care to elaborate? If this offends you and you don't wish to discuss it, don't reply. I will completely understand. But there is no need to continue to comment that you don't agree etc...

People have gotten kicked off TV shows and lost contracts over expressing a view that was their freedom to do, so I don't see how that shows it's "that important." But I get what you're saying. People take it very seriously. My question is why.

wilderness medic

06-13-2015, 11:46 PM

Looking at the Stolen Valor Act of 2005, I see that it prohibits the unauthorized wear of decorations and medals not uniforms. That makes more sense as my focus here was more of the uniform than the award.

I also see there was a court ruling that the act was an unconstitutional abridgment of the freedom of speech. That was another thing that bothered me about people being so huffy over someone dressing up and pretending.

I apologize if I offended anyone over this. I was merely trying to explore and gain some knowledge...

Sarge47

06-13-2015, 11:48 PM

I am not trying to keep it going. Hunter has stated at least 3 times indicating he is done and has nothing more to say yet has come back to say something.

I fail to see how someone telling me I am minimizing the lives spent defending my freedom, after I actually served defending that, is "keeping his cool." That seems a little over the line to me as far as "playing nicely." If you are referring to my "especially if you have the ... to tell me" I have edited it to audacity. Other than that I do not see where I have broken the rules or said anything to get this deleted.

I wasn't laying ON anyone until Hunter said something I found to be crossing the line, and even still it was very mild. I didn't name call, or insult. Do with it what you will. I was hoping for a discussion to share thoughts, even if they weren't the same as mine. But apparently that's not for subjects people don't agree 100% with.

I see you have also commented on feeling the same with no explanation. But I guess you were chiming in on the debate between us more than the topic.

Care to elaborate? If this offends you and you don't wish to discuss it, don't reply. I will completely understand. But there is no need to continue to comment that you don't agree etc...

1st off, if this thread turns into a heated debate creating harsh feelings among the members I will shut it down. I've seen members turn "troll" from seemingly harmless threads.

2nd, I view anyone who falsely misrepresents themselves as a teacher, fireman, policeman, Doctor, airline pilot, or serviceman,etc. as a fraud trying to represent themselves as an equal to those who actually paid the price by education, training, experience, and even the mental issues they oft-times face from going through all of that. My oldest son served with Valor in the Marines during Desert Storm. My middle brother was drafted and missed going to Viet Nam by a hair. My youngest brother served in the 101st Airborne and was in Panama during the Iranian hostage crisis. My nephew had to leave the Army due to medical reasons but served in both Afghanistan and Iraq before doing so. I had four other cousins serve in Viet Nam. The closest one to me was a Marine who came back with alcohol and drug addictions; he died from that 13 years ago. the other three served and one got wounded, another came home in a body bag, so there's my reasons. and that should be enough....:cool2:

wilderness medic

06-14-2015, 12:03 AM

I understand they are a fraud, but why is this different from any other fraud? I am glad to see you include fire, police, doctor in all that.... That was one of the things I didn't get. No one seems to give much care about any of those being misrepresented. How many times do people lie about being doctors/ surgeons, or any other high profile job that is considered admiral? Same with other valorous jobs. Seems like a lot to me, but for some reason it seems people only care about the service related frauds.

The rest of that was just a list of family serving....again that isn't really a reason...just a list... I can provide one of family as well, along with my battle buddies that came home in a body bag.... but that doesn't give a much of a reason beyond "my family were these people and I don't like people pretending to be them," not why someone wanting to pretend to be you is insulting to the highest degree.

I am not a troll. Please don't insult me, I did not insult anyone and was met with an accusation of minimizing the sacrifices of lives given for freedom. I came here to discuss not have a peeing match or a flame fest.

wilderness medic

06-14-2015, 12:05 AM

If you want just go ahead and delete this. I can't see it being discussed without emotions getting too riled up. I don't think most people can look past the damage and lives lost to discuss it without getting their feelings hurt or mad that someone could even question something like that, regardless of the intent of the question.

Sarge47

06-14-2015, 12:14 AM

Read the words in red.

The rest of that was just a list of family serving....again that isn't really a reason...just a list... I can provide one of family as well, along with my battle buddies that came home in a body bag (http://www.brownells.com/emergency-survival-gear/backpacks-amp-bags/backpacks/echo-sigma-bug-out-pack-prod75030.aspx).... but that doesn't give a much of a reason beyond "my family were these people and I don't like people pretending to be them," not why someone wanting to pretend to be you is insulting to the highest degree.

My family is one of the reasons that I agree with those that get upset by it. They served and paid the price.

I am not a troll, don't insult me, I came here to discuss not have a peeing match or a flame fest.

At this point I don't think that you are, just explaining. BTW, how do I know that you're not making false claims about military service? See my point? False claims hurt everybody. One time we had a guy on here who claimed to be a former sergeant in the French Marine Commandos. He wasn't of course.

natertot

06-14-2015, 12:23 AM

Okay, I'll be the first vet to state why it bother me and I don't care if my answer is sufficient or not for those that read it.

The uniform is not given to you just for signing the bottom line. Every single piece of the uniform is earned, even at the lowest rank. Somebody who wears a uniform, even of the lowest rank, to claim vet status or recognition dilute the meaning of that uniform.

WM, you stated that it should only be medals and awards, and not the uniform. I hate to break it to you, but medals and awards are an actual part of the uniform.

As for those that are serving being "so far removed from combat that they might as well be at Chuck-E-Cheeses", that alone makes me want to tell you to go do certain things to yourself. Many people who have served or are serving didn't get all the choices in the world on what they wanted to do while in the service, nonetheless, they still served. I have just as much respect for the clerks, cooks, and maintenance personnel in the military as I do the guy sleeping on the dirt or the special ops. Are they "badass" per se? Not necessarily, but they did what they needed to do in service of our country.

Now that I have said that, I want to just say thanks to all my fellow vets for whatever it is that you have done in service to our country. I also want to say thanks to the vets of our allies, the accomplishments of our combined forces does not go unnoticed.

wilderness medic

06-14-2015, 12:26 AM

My family is one of the reasons that I agree with those that get upset by it. They served and paid the price.
At this point I don't think that you are, just explaining. BTW, how do I know that you're not making false claims about military service? See my point? False claims hurt everybody. One time we had a guy on here who claimed to be a former sergeant in the French Marine Commandos. He wasn't of course.

Thanks for a bit more of a response. Your family served and paid the price, I get that. You don't like someone idolizing their service so much they make a fool of themselves by portraying themselves next the the greatness of your family?

That doesn't hurt me. I could be, but it shouldn't hurt you. If I needed to prove myself for some reason I could show you my DD214 or other various military records. Until then I would just be some wanna-be poser moron, and don't see why that would offend you so much. People lie all the time as I stated. Why is this different? Lets say my father died by drowning trying to save a person who crashed into a river or something...and then I hear someone at the bar telling some woman he pulled a person out of a river and saved their life.... Am I supposed to stand up and harass this guy, get physically violent?? I think i'd just get a chuckle at how pathetic he was.

In all fairness it does sound like you are including all frauds in your anger of impersonation. I just can't see people getting so upset at someone wearing a fire dept/police/ or any other related job shirt that wasn't in. In fact, when I started jumping at my local DZ I noticed the instructor had a sweater that said Airborne and had jump wings, and was in multi cam pants. I asked if he was in. He replied no. I thought it was slightly tacky but thought nothing more of it. To me it was almost more of a compliment than disrespect. Maybe that's why I differ in this.

wilderness medic

06-14-2015, 12:35 AM

The uniform is not given to you just for signing the bottom line. Every single piece of the uniform is earned, even at the lowest rank. Somebody who wears a uniform, even of the lowest rank, to claim vet status or recognition dilute the meaning of that uniform.

Actually it is. I don't remember being at MEPS exchanging fire or providing support before I was handed a uniform. Or do you consider it being earned once you get to in processing and are handed it there? Was the plane ride over the earning of it? There is no denying the vast amount of dirt bags that make it in, and some even stay in. They still got the uniform for signing, and some even for fighting. BUT. In your opinion is someone who signed up PURELY for money or just wanting to kill someone
to be held in the same veteran status light as a selfless person that did it to fight for freedom and protect their country? I believe that's called a mercenary. Is someone who joined, got a uniform, then smoked pot, never worked, and got chaptered out the same? Because they are a veteran...and can say they are without falsely portraying someone who never joined. That is my point on that tidbit.

WM, you stated that it should only be medals and awards, and not the uniform. I hate to break it to you, but medals and awards are an actual part of the uniform.

As for those that are serving being "so far removed from combat that they might as well be at Chuck-E-Cheeses", that alone makes me want to tell you to go do certain things to yourself. Many people who have served or are serving didn't get all the choices in the world on what they wanted to do while in the service, nonetheless, they still served. I have just as much respect for the clerks, cooks, and maintenance personnel in the military as I do the guy sleeping on the dirt or the special ops. Are they "badass" per se? Not necessarily, but they did what they needed to do in service of our country.

Semantics. When I was referring to the "uniform" I was talking about someone going to milsur, buying some old ACUs, and wearing them around. Not someone walking around decked out with medals and awards. I stated I can agree a lot more with these feelings if someone is doing that as opposed to throwing on some old cammo. People have been harassed over some old surplus camo pants. I don't blame someone for wearing them, they are comfy, and they are...pants...not a slap in the face or diluting anything in my opinion. However I can see someone walking around in class A's decked out in medals spewing how they saved the world as being a lot more irritating.

I never said they were not needed, not respected, and not brave and valorous. There have been many many extreme acts of courage from non combat MOS's, and they are a vital part of fighting. You can certainly call them courageous and vital, but do you look at them in the same fashion as an SF member or ranger? If you do that is very admirable and understandable, however many regular people would not. They simply don't know the difference and to them everyone in a uniform is kicking down doors.

Sarge47

06-14-2015, 12:43 AM

wilderness medic

06-14-2015, 12:49 AM

Another point, it is violation of Military law!

18 USC § 912 - Officer or employee of the United States
Whoever falsely assumes or pretends to be an officer or employee acting under the authority of the United States or any department, agency or officer thereof, and acts as such, or in such pretended character demands or obtains any money, paper, document, or thing of value, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

10 USC § 771 - Unauthorized wearing prohibited
Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army (http://www.justanswer.com/topics-army/), Navy (http://www.justanswer.com/topics-navy/), Air Force (http://www.justanswer.com/topics-air-force/), or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear— (1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or (2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

Thanks, was curious if there was a law that applied to people wearing. But what exactly constitutes impersonating? NO ONE can wear it? With all the old uniforms sold at surplus places and the like, this is actually feasible?

Where do you draw the line? Nothing that was issued at any point in time ever touches a non service members skin? No kids buying old camouflage and playing "soldier" in the backyard? No hunters wearing any pattern used by the military?

Crazy that there is so much surplus gear sold so openly with it being illegal.

Something else that just crossed my mind. I would be (an am) so much more concerned with the dirt bags I referred to being in the military diluting the image and model of what a valorous solider should be, rather than some idiots on the street playing dress up. I think if anyone is "tainting or diluting" in these regards it would be the large number of people that actually make it for some not so valorous reasons/intentions being held on a pedestal. The public could see one of these "I just wanted to be able to legally kill people" type and they are praised, while they are threatening to beat up some kid that just wanted to pretend he was the valorous type lol....

aflineman

06-14-2015, 12:57 AM

natertot

06-14-2015, 01:03 AM

WM, I don't care what the person's reason for joining is and it has no bearing on the fact that they served. Some join for money, some for education, some because their dad served, and some because that is all they ever wanted to do. Know why I joined? I joined because I was young and had no idea what the hell I wanted to do in life. (I still don't, but that is besides the point) I figured I would serve, see some other countries, gain some life experience, and perhaps figure out my calling. Does the fact that I joined up to serve because I was a clueless 18 year old mean my service is/was unworthy? I have yet to meet a fellow vet that thinks so, but I do stand in awe and have unwavering respect for those that did more.

Awards and medals are a part of the uniform and that is not semantics. I would have loved to see the look on any of my Chiefs or Division Officers had anyone they were butt chewing told them it was "semantics"! As far as wearing uniform items for leisure or whatever, that is not stolen valor. I was navy, but I have some army rain coats, jackets, socks, and pants that I wear because they make great outdoor clothes. I also know a few people that wear uniforms of loved one's. I guess it is their way of coping/remembering and is a means to draw recognition to their loved one. I have no problem with that either. Heck, my brother was about ten years old when I was in and all he wanted was a uniform that was mine he could wear. I actually tracked down a child's replica Navy Dress Blues uniform and sewed on my patches, attached my ribbons to it, and fitted the neckerchief for it. He just wanted to wear it because he was proud of his brother. What is the issue is when people wear uniforms to get recognition for service they did not do and it is usually to obtain financial reward or gain. Beggers and store discounts primarily.

I do not respect a Ranger or a SEAL more than a deck seaman or other branches equivalent. I respect them the same and have the same gratitude. They all were/are doing their job.

wilderness medic

06-14-2015, 01:22 AM

You need to earn it to wear it. As far as old BDUs and such, they make good hunting gear. I have to laugh at folks who are at some of the firearms competitions I go to. They have full battle rattle on, just to shoot in a fun competition. As long as they are not wearing rank, Unit emblems, and other insignia, I do not care.Gear is gear, the other stuff is earned. I am proud of the people I have served with, and the Units I have served with. I have worked side by side with folks from many Units, but I won't wear insignia from those units. Only exceptions are a couple of T shirts I have got from folks who served with a couple of units. Even then, I rarely wear then, if ever. Just because it is not me.
Same with coins. I have two separate stacks. Those I have been given, and those I earned. Just how it is.

Outstanding post, I like it. Especially the part about the two stacks of coins.

WM, I don't care what the person's reason for joining is and it has no bearing on the fact that they served.

If you respect someone who joined because they wanted to be able to feel what it's like to kill and not get in trouble the same as someone who wanted to risk their lives to defend what they believe in, that's your prerogative. You are entitled to that opinion/feeling, I however do not share it. A criminal is a criminal, a psychopath is psychopath, regardless of serving. How is it serving if they aren't serving? They are doing it to serve themselves, no one else, plain and simple.

Awards and medals are a part of the uniform and that is not semantics. I would have loved to see the look on any of my Chiefs or Division Officers had anyone they were butt chewing told them it was "semantics"! As far as wearing uniform items for leisure or whatever, that is not stolen valor. I was navy, but I have some army rain coats, jackets, socks, and pants that I wear because they make great outdoor clothes. I also know a few people that wear uniforms of loved one's. I guess it is their way of coping/remembering and is a means to draw recognition to their loved one. I have no problem with that either. Heck, my brother was about ten years old when I was in and all he wanted was a uniform that was mine he could wear. I actually tracked down a child's replica Navy Dress Blues uniform and sewed on my patches, attached my ribbons to it, and fitted the neckerchief for it. He just wanted to wear it because he was proud of his brother. What is the issue is when people wear uniforms to get recognition for service they did not do and it is usually to obtain financial reward or gain. Beggers and store discounts primarily.

I do not respect a Ranger or a SEAL more than a deck seaman or other branches equivalent. I respect them the same and have the same gratitude. They all were/are doing their job.

You clearly are not grasping the point about the uniform. Perhaps read Aflinemans post above about gear. Or maybe you do as you're talking about NOT being stolen valor and wearing things you didn't earn. You have no problem with it or you do? Which is it, or more importantly, where do you draw the line on what is and isn't? That is why I asked where you differentiate, and said I understand more about the medals and awards (yes yes, they are PART of the uniform) maybe I should have specified which uniform. Class A's are different than surplus pants, jacket, etc. That is what I was talking about.

As for respecting them the same, good on you. That is admirable and understandable, however I did mention the publics perception normally doesn't seem to be that way.

natertot

06-14-2015, 01:46 AM

You clearly are not grasping the point about the uniform. Yes I do. Perhaps read Aflinemans post above about gear. Or maybe you do as you're talking about NOT being stolen valor and wearing things you didn't earn. You have no problem with it or you do? Which is it, or more importantly, where do you draw the line on what is and isn't?I draw the line when people wear a uniform to receive recognition of service they did not do or to receive gain (beggers, store discounts) for service they did not give. I have said this. If people want to wear a uniform to honor their loved ones and bring their loved ones recognition, I have no issue with that as long as they are not taking credit for their loved ones service. Based on your standard, I should be getting bent about uniforms being worn in the movies, which I don't That is why I asked where you differentiate, and said I understand more about the medals and awards (yes yes, they are PART of the uniform) maybe I should have specified which uniform. Class A's are different than surplus pants, jacket, etc. That is what I was talking about. It doesn't matter which uniform. A person is either in uniform or out of uniform, there is no half way. If a person is wearing a uniform minus badges, awards, etc then they are out of uniform.

As for respecting them the same, good on you. That is admirable and understandable, however I did mention the publics perception normally doesn't seem to be that way.

The publics perception is "thank you for serving". Most of the time, civilians do not ask what I did, they just say thanks. On occasion I do get asked what branch I was in and maybe a story about their relative who served. The public doesn't go beyond that cause they wouldn't know what to ask or be able to understand the answers if they did. I also get the impression public doesn't want to know what vets have done in many cases.

Being in the Navy, we did a lot of ship board cleaning. I told my mom the first year or so I was in that I was a janitor which wasn't a lie by any means, but it didn't include everything I did. A lot of what I did I am not permitted to discuss anyway, so I just tell her a little about the navigation aspect of what I did.

WolfVanZandt

06-14-2015, 02:05 AM

I have a pragmatic view on this. When I was an active CMA (Christian Motorcyclists Association) member, they told me to guard my colors carefully because people were actually using stolen (and borrowed!) CMA colors to build a false ID in order to con people. Also, non-CMA members were wearing them in activities that did not glorify God and could easily hurt the reputation of this ministry. The colors means something and can be used for malicious purposes. Military uniforms carry with them a message and if a non-military person wears them then a false message, which can be used for malicious purposes, can be read into it. It's like telling a lie and one that can be of little or huge import.

I wish it was just a matter of people being foolish. I've noticed that the best way off getting rid of an Internet troll is to just ignore them - following the rule, "Don't feed the trolls." People who wear military uniforms without the "right" to do so may be trolling "the establishment" and strong emotional responses simply feed those trolls. If it were that simple, I think the best response would be to simply ignore them and let them drown in their own bile (and I think that, far from being a troll, Wilderness Medic is thinking something like that - it's a rational position and he's said that he didn't think that the imposters were appropriate in doing what they're doing - but he's obviously not the enemy, so......) Anyway, it's not that simple (is anything?). There are too many complex consequences to that kind of behavior. Actually, if it becomes too common, and there's no consequences, it will become an OK thing to do, and I hope the US won't ever sink that low.

Rick

06-14-2015, 06:16 AM

WM - I am not a vet but I do disagree with people pretending to be vets. When I purchase something at Lowe's one of the questions I'm always asked is, "Are you a vet?" My answer is no, of course, but how many pretend to be a vet just to get the discount? How many falsify work applications or even lie at food pantries? We had a "vet" on here that played the "poor little ole me" card. People sent him money and did things for him because they respected his "service". It's far more that just wearing a uniform. If someone has so little moral compass that they will pretend to be a veteran then their moral compass will allow them to accept civilian fringe benefits associated with that service. You guys and gals earned every benefit you are afforded and whole lot more, IMO. I detest those that lie about it to acquire those same benefits even if it's nothing more than admiration.

crashdive123

06-14-2015, 07:21 AM

I'll weigh in on this.

I'm a veteran. I am not a combat veteran.

It is fairly common to see people wearing uniform parts (BDU pants or blouses). You can buy them on-line. You can buy them at gun shows. You can buy them at your local military surplus store. Wearing utility uniform parts (or whole) do not bother me. I see it in the woods and around town. This does not bother me, but sometimes makes me laugh at the ridiculous looks that some put together probably thinking they "look cool".

The only uniforms I kept were my Dress Blues and Dress Whites. I doubt they will be worn until my funeral......which I pray will be a long time from now. I have bought some BDU parts from the Navy Exchange to use while camping and hiking sometimes as they are a good option for those activities. I do have two pair of Marine Corps BDU pants that were given to me. I have not worn them - I just feel weird about them since I was not a Marine.......even though they are just a pair of pants and it doesn't bother me if somebody else wheres them for the activities I described. Just me I guess.

The attitudes of many have changed since I joined the service. Many service members were encouraged to NOT wear their uniforms in town because of how they may be treated. I entered the service just after Viet Nam, and although I was in schools for quite a while after boot camp I still heard the words "baby killer" and was sometimes treated like a pariah. Those instances did not happen to me often, but did make me sad that so many that had been told to serve (drafted) were treated so poorly.

It is really uplifting to me to see the big "turnaround" in attitudes toward Military service.

Having said all of that........ What does bother me is when somebody puts on a uniform, or falsify their military service for personal gain. Getting a discount at a store, a free meal at a restaurant, etc - while they don't affect me personally - it's stealing - period. Those that lie about Military service in order to get the job or advancement that they want - that's stealing too in my book.

As far as "outing" a fraud in a public place - I would and have. I don't make a big deal of it. They are, in my opinion disrespecting the service of others. I'm sure they don't see it that way - just trying to get something for themselves. I don't film it and follow them around. I just humiliate them a wee bit and the leave them alone. To be perfectly honest - having been retired for almost 20 years, and with all of my time in the Navy - I probably wouldn't recognize some of the uniform violations that give away their "fake service". Some are obvious, but some are not - at least not to me. They have issues that go beyond wearing the uniform.

I do applaud the efforts of those to expose the egregious cases. Don Shipley has done a lot of work in this area.

crashdive123

06-14-2015, 07:33 AM

To add a little story to the above....Stolen Valor is not just done by civilians that want to be something they are not or get something they have not earned.

I was in "A" School at Dam Neck, Virginia back in the 70's. Our first day of class we were lined up in the passageway for a uniform inspection. All of us (about 30) were fresh out of boot camp and Submarine School except one. The "one" had prior military service in the Air Force. He was wearing an impressive rack of ribbons on his chest. I had no idea what they were at the time - didn't pay that much attention to them other than the number (five rows) and variety of colors.

The Senior Chief that was performing the inspection did recognize the rack and asked the young lad (he was a Second Class Petty Officer (E-5) while the rest of us were Seamen (E-3)) to step into his office. After the inspection was over the Senior Chief went to his office. We heard no yelling. We heard no screaming. After about 15 minutes the Senior Chief reappeared, clutching a handful of ribbons. We received a quick class on what each and every one of them were. Among them......Medal of Honor, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Air Force Commendation Medal and others. He was actually entitled to wear three - National Defense Medal and two others I don't recall.

He never did make it to Submarines. Within a few days he was chipping paint on an Aircraft Carrier in Norfolk as an E-4.

They didn't call it stolen valor back then, but it is not a new phenomenon.

Wiggy

06-14-2015, 08:12 AM

I'll throw in my two cents as a vet.

I wear my old BDUs and even some old defunct patterns as hunting and fishing clothes, but out of respect I will not wear a current pattern from another branch or anything like that. I don't know if I have the right words for it, but I know it would feel wrong. For example, I was active duty Air Force (28th CES) so I'll wear my personal old BDUs or Vietnam era tiger stripe camo, but I won't wear ACU or Marpat. I also never wear the whole uniform like I'm trying to look like I'm still active duty or something.

As far as why people get so hot under the collar when they see someone walking around pretending to be something they aren't... I understand but I probably wouldn't point them out in a crowd. Not unless they were bragging about combat duty they obviously never saw and were really fooling people into believing it. It's just disrespectful to boast about things you never earned. In short, I really have other things to do during my day than spend it paying attention to posers.

Sarge47

06-14-2015, 10:20 AM

So how do people feel about "posers?" I'm a member of the Quad Cities Magic Club, some of our members are professional clowns. One in particular is the area's Ronald McDonald as well as having another clown identity. The 2nd identity is the one that he created while attending the Barnum & Bailey, Ringling Brothers Clown School. He went on to work for their circus for a number of years. One day he heard somebody claiming that he worked as a professional clown for the same circus at the same time that my friend worked their, yet my friend knew that he was lying. He waited until the fellow dug himself in pretty deep then "outed" him in front of everybody causing him deep embarrassment. In the small town that I live in we don't get military "posers/wannabes." But if we did it wouldn't be pretty.

As far as BDU parts go I own several sets and use them when out in the outdoors. They are made very well and I find hold up longer than civilian clothing. However I always remove any insignias, rank patches, service branches, etc.! I never served and don't wish to be mistaken for a vet. I never earned the right.

Winnie

06-14-2015, 12:20 PM

I have never served, but I come from a military family and it's not so much the stolen valour, but the whole idea of someone, anyone, lying in an attempt to improve their lot I find abhorrent.
The fact they do it by impersonating military personnel or fictionalising their service record is doubly obnoxious. The Military has a special place in the heart of every nation and to garner those feelings by lying is below contempt.
I'm quite certain some of these plebs have ruined the reputation of the Services in some folks eyes because of their behaviour too.

So do I find it funny? No.
And yes, I find it offensive.

LowKey

06-14-2015, 12:36 PM

I live in a town pretty near a formerly active base. There are still military stationed in the area. Out of respect I don't wear anything that could be construed as active duty because stores and restaurants around here will give them a break and it is embarrassing to me to be mistaken for someone who served when I did not.

As for Stolen Valor, that is different. Perhaps it is a misnomer to call "serving" "valor" but to misrepresent having served is stealing, whether it is in receiving unearned respect, job offers or public trust. I don't care if someone wants to run around in BDUs but the minute they put on insignia or take something that they haven't earned I'd have a problem with that.

You say that no one cares if someone impersonates a doctor. I don't care if someone runs around town in a white coat carrying a stethoscope but the minute they try to practice medicine, I'd have a problem with that too. I imagine that putting on a police uniform is pretty clear cut as well.
Claiming to be something in order to prey on others is wrong.
I feel the same way about military imposters as I do about, oh, say, someone who checks the "minority" box in order to gain preferential hiring.

wilderness medic

06-14-2015, 02:04 PM

Thanks for the replies. I am on track with A LOT of the last 4 or 5 replies. It's good to hear vets (and non vets as well) opinions on this and where they draw the line.

WolfZanZandt- You're right, there is no simple answer. Love the "Trolling the establishment" comment. Basically looking for the attention of everyone they can get.

Rick- Absolutely. From my first post I mentioned the monetary gain aspect. If someone is lying for a discount or receiving any type of gain I feel that's entirely different and they should be hung(Not literally). To be honest I hate the whole "poor little old me" vet card from anyone. Vet or not. I've been at Lowes or HD and seen someone going absolutely bonkers over not being able to get a vet discount on some trivial little item. Whether they were a vet or not I found that very inappropriate behavior in public.

Crash- Yes, I know what you're talking about as far as seeing them intentionally do it to try and look cool. You are right about the free meals etc. Never thought of it that way but it is stealing. I like that you'd call them out but leave it at that and not follow or record. Holy cow, can't believe that guy walked in to a bunch of servicemen with a chest full of ribbons including an MOH(!) and thought he'd get away with it.

Sarge- At first I thought you were leading up to calling Ronald McDonald a fraud and not a real clown LOL. Clown on clown violence needs to end.

That was a big part of my questions about what's what in all this. BDUs, or any other field pants are GREAT pants. I wear them for hiking, dirty yard work, etc. Makes perfect sense to remove insignia and wear them as a great set of pants or jacket. Part of the reason I tried to differentiate that is because I have seen at least one video where someone followed and recorded a guy that was wearing ACUs with no insignias, medals, or awards. He even looked like he may have been a teenager.

Lowkey- Thanks for the response, it sounds like any insignia or specific identifier is the line for you too. But as far as putting on a lab coat... There is a huge difference between putting on a coat and practicing medicine. Practicing medicine in that way is illegal and can cause great bodily harm or death. That would be equivalent to one of these "imposters" picking up weaponry and trying to actually get in combat. The same with LE. In that scenario they are impersonating someone with huge legal exemptions such as carrying a firearm, detaining/arresting citizens, enforcing law, etc. That seems a little different to me than just lying about what they've done in the past. Perhaps them saying "I was a cop" would be more in line as analogy.

Sarge47

06-14-2015, 03:05 PM

Sarge- At first I thought you were leading up to calling Ronald McDonald a fraud and not a real clown LOL. Clown on clown violence needs to end.

Two cannibals were eating a clown, one turned to the other and asked "Does this taste funny to you?"

Know how to tell who's Ronald McDonald in a nudist colony? He's the one with the sesame seed buns.

Until I met Ronald,(yes, that's really his 1st name)I always thought of clowns as just silly people who threw on oversized clothing, painted their faces with cheap theatrical make up, and act funny. I never realized what all it required. The make-up alone runs hundreds of dollars. Ronald goes all over the world in his other clown identity getting involved in clowning there. While it's true that pretending to be a clown is not in the same league as impersonating a military person, the concept is the same. When I was on staff at a Rescue Mission in the early '90s I met people who tried to impersonate others. Two guys wore clerical collars claiming to be priests, one claimed that the CIA was hunting for him and that he used to be one of their assassins, some claimed to have served time at certain prisons; why anybody would make something like that up is beyond me, but those who had actually done time there were really put out about it.

I've seen older guys sitting on a street corner claiming to be vets, wearing an M-51 Army jacket with signs saying that they served in Viet Nam and needed financial help. Were they? How would I know? I met a lot of con men at the mission and learned how to recognize them. I see that everybody who responded on here to the original topic posted by WM seem to have negative feelings for those who would pretend to be military or vets. Interesting.

Faiaoga

06-14-2015, 08:41 PM

It is not honest or respectful to claim to be something you are not. I inherited a number of Khaki shirts and web belts from my father, an Army officer, but would never wear any rank or unit insignia. Otherwise, military surplus clothing is inexpensive and durable - good work and outdoor clothing. I have purchased military surplus items from other countries, but remove any rank or unit identification.

As a schoolteacher, I have often worn Samoan dress for various "cultural days". I have never been accused of being a wannabe or poser because people learn that I lived in a Samoan village and had to dress that way when teaching in the village school, It seems that honest, courtesy and tact are important concepts to keep I mind. My view point, anyway.:o:o

oldsoldier

06-15-2015, 07:03 PM

Okay here goes.......Yes I served. Yes %$#$@%^ people who claim to be what they're not or never was pi##es me off! Be it a military member current or PS, a LEO, FF, whatever. Yes it makes me furious when people claim they have a bronze star, distinguished service cross, what even and didn't. To me they are lower than low!

Now as for old uniforms. IF they are just that and bear no rank, name, unit designation, or any other sort of patch, flash, ribbon or anything else then I really don't have any problem with that. Quite often I wear old field uniform pants and sometimes blouses (shirts) when working outside or camping. They're comfortable and durable, as well as cheap to purchase. I even have a field jacket I wear in cold weather because it's warm and comfortable.

I guess my interpretation of stolen valor is different than some and I respect that. I see Hunters point and feelings. As well as naternot and sarges points.

Winter

06-16-2015, 10:56 PM

Just saw another "stolen valor" video that was on the news and I have a question for the vets here.

Does it really bother you that much? Why? I think it is absolutely hilarious. These guys look like garbage and are obviously fake.

You won't know they're fake if you don't know the uniform. If I see a 50yo with a Vietnam Service Medal, I know he is lying. You wouldn't know anything about it.

I keep hearing all these guys on these videos "They didn't earn it." Earn what? It is a uniform, not a silver star, MOH, or any other award of valor. (Granted I know some of these guys are toting those too, but the focus always seems to be the uniform-even standard ACUS) All it takes is signing on the dotted line. I've seen straight up criminals and thugs serve, purely for a desire to "off" someone, some do it just because they are lost and need money, soldiers who are so far removed from combat they might as well be at Chuck-E-Cheese, etc.

What if i had an EMT sticker on my truck. I'm not an EMT. Did you earn that symbol or did you just sign up for a course?

Why is there so much focus on the uniform? People want to pretend, they're funny idiots to me.... Not someone i'm going to follow around town recording and harassing. I might crack a joke in front of a crowd or something but some of these videos look like harassment. If someone did that to me wether I was a vet or not I wouldn't be very nice and would tell them to kick rocks.

You just won "most lifelong civilian comment" award.

I say, let 'em dress up, if you want to embarrass them crack a joke in public. Until they are receiving compensation of some sort I don't see why people feel the need to follow them like i'm seeing. Even some threatening with violence. Especially in comments, although saying and doing are two different things...

What say you? Really that horrible and offensive?

It's extremely horrible and offensive.

You would be beside yourself if you saw a guy with a "South Pole Expedition, Lead Medic " T-shirt who was wearing EMT and medic symbols on his hat if you KNEW he was none of these things.

What I've seen is that the more one respects what someone has done, the more they are offended by people who lie about doing that thing.

Personally, I have deep respect for the warrior.

Winter

06-16-2015, 11:09 PM

I could show you my DD214 or other various military records. .

A photo would suffice, or something. I've never ever heard of a vet that is OK with stolen valor.

wilderness medic

06-17-2015, 12:29 AM

Easy mr jingoism lmao.

Id be besides myself?? Haha! I've already stated I wouldn't care. Why? Because people lie. Lying happens, it is not illegal. I have seen people in FD shirts and ems hats that weren't. What ever. Don't practice medicine, I don't care. You are just kind of a dirt bag for lying. I would think the person is a low life but I wouldn't harass them or want it to be illegal. Now I thy tried to actually practice medicine, of course stop them. They are not licensed for that. They can say they are all they want. I don't give a damn. I've already given examples of situations people lie about accomplishments and flaunt it, it happens.

"Never heard of a vet who was ok with stolen valor"

First off who said I was ok with it? I said it didn't bother me like it seems to bother everyone else, and I don't think it should be illegal. Several times I've said it's not right.

A photo would suffice, or something. I've never ever heard of a vet that is OK with stolen valor.

HAHAHAHA really??!! Wow dude. That is genuinely hilarious.

Who said I didn't have respect for the warrior? I wouldn't have two names permanently marked on my body if I didn't respect them. I know it's hard for people blinded by their patriotism to realize, but not every soldier thinks exactly the same We can think individually contrary to popular belief. You can have respect for the warrior and not have thin skin at the same time. Try it.

Yours truly 0:22

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xAzFjACos2E

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q754/WildernessMedic/photo-49_zps656d1708.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/WildernessMedic/media/photo-49_zps656d1708.jpg.html)

Want my Safeway and CPR cards too haha?

Winter

06-17-2015, 04:32 AM

Wasting ammo is pretty impressive. You could have done that in the states. The reciprocating barrel on the M2 and it's variants should not be set on a surface there Sergeant Major.

If something doesn't bother you, that means you are ok with it. That's what the words mean.

Looks like you saved a lot of money on that ink.

You started this thread as a troll, pure and simple. You can deny you did and say you were seeking some greater understanding or whatever you'd like to make up.

Don't bother correcting me on the SGM thing. You are soupy like a 3 yr PFC.

crashdive123

06-17-2015, 06:40 AM

Let it alone fellas. Agree to disagree on this one.

wilderness medic

06-17-2015, 09:01 AM

wilderness medic

06-17-2015, 09:27 AM

And I just realize you weren't talking about my tattooed in the video, but my memorial tattoos honoring my fallen battles. Talk about a disrespectful punk. That's pretty low. I don't think much had to be said beyond that. Lmao what kind of dirtbag does that regardless of WHO they are on and what the disagreement is.

Grizz123

06-17-2015, 09:48 AM

Aw, the poor lil fella who can't think beyond what he's told is upset. Apparently you've never heard of test firing. And not all of that was a test fire. The night firing was an actually returning fire

I thought soldiers had thicker skin. Poor guy, try not to cry tonight when you lay down and realize not everyone worships you and thinks you're a hero lmao. Then again maybe you don't even have the mental depth or IQ to ever get off your high horse and figure that out.

I didn't start this as a troll, but someone else called me one so you probably can't formulate an opinion yourself and decided to join them. FYI not crying over what clothes someone is wearing is different from thinking claiming to be a war hero is honorable. I kept this civil, but if you're going to start with the insults( and yes that was clearly meant to be so, from your first post) then I'm done.

Feel free to lock this crash. There was nothing to let alone as I had already disagreed without having to fling personal attacks, but apparently that same courtesy can't be given to me.

I served USAF, 47th CES - Many family members have served in the past

From everything you have written in this thread I can see you truly have no idea what it means to be an American.

You dont have any self respect or respect for the flag or Country. You joined the service as something to do, nothing more...

You have those tats on your arms because you thought those guys were cool dudes, nothing more.

I see those tats and it brings a tear to my eye as a reminder of those who gave all, its a shame, as an American citizen, you do not see the same sacrifice or feel the same gratitude

I proudly fly the Flag in my front yard and always stop to thank the vets I see wearing a uniform. I will also confront someone if I think they are posing as a vet (happened once and he turned and ran before I could call him on it)

You dont understand my Patriotism and Love of Country - I dont understand your lack of Patriotism or dislike of this Country. I plan I staying, you dont have to

wilderness medic

06-17-2015, 10:01 AM

Lol!!!! Just when I thought the responses couldn't get any more ignorant. Truly disgusting you think you know me and have the audacity to accuse me of such things. Unbelievable. First off; I didn't even like one of them. I got it to honor his sacrifice and so I'd never forget it. Every day I am reminded of it.

Second, I am one of the few people in my company that didn't join because they played to much call of duty. I joined to do good and fight for my country.

Third- How dare you. This has to to truly disgusting insults over a difference in opinion. To me you are the unamerican one. Someone so blinded by their "patriotism" they can't put their raw emotions aside for 5 minutes to discuss something or think or It rationally.