Disappearing Food

[jsrykken]

Howdy,

I am new here to your excellent forum. Thanks for having me.

I have a question that maybe has already been answered somewhere in the forum, but if not...

Recently certain internet news sites have reported food shortages in America, particularly rice and cooking oil. In response to this , I would like to get some opinions about what you think would be the first things to disappear from store shelves if a panic buying situation occured. Would it be soap, sugar, salt, ammunition, warm clothing, deodorant, cigarettes, or something else?
If we knew this we could carefully and quietly buy ahead of the rush.

I remember reading about the deprivation in Germany after the 2nd War, and how people would give almost anything for a bar of soap.

What do you think?

John

[Rick]

I think there will always be shortages of some commodity either because of some natural phenomenon (flood, heat, etc.) or some marketing strategy. We have posted on the "lack" of food in America and the fact is there is more food production today than there was a year ago. It has to do with the land bank and the overall price of grains.

While there will always be large scale food shortages somewhere in the world (as there always has been). I don't see that occurring here in the U.S. or Canada.

[hoosierarcher]

Let us not forget that news agencies twist, spin stories, ignoring facts that don't fit what they want to say and even go so far as to fabricate if the facts don't fit the doom and gllom scenario they want to protray so often these days.

[Rick]

I don't even pick on news agency for that. I think they sell advertising and tell stories. Some are good and some aren't. Sort of like used car dealers. You have to figure out which are good and which aren't. There will always be a Cronkite, Woodward or Bernstein out there working on a story. It might be in Podunk Nebraska for some independent monthly newsletter or it might be someone on the New York Times. Sadly, there will always be a Jason Blair out there just looking to make a name for himself with little regard for what a real reporter does.

[BraggSurvivor]

I think there will always be shortages of some commodity either because of some natural phenomenon (flood, heat, etc.) or some marketing strategy. We have posted on the "lack" of food in America and the fact is there is more food production today than there was a year ago. It has to do with the land bank and the overall price of grains.

While there will always be large scale food shortages somewhere in the world (as there always has been). I don't see that occurring here in the U.S. or Canada.

Clouds low in Indiana Rick? :D

[Rick]

Big fat fluffy ones today. Cumulo Bigassedones.

[BraggSurvivor]

Big fat fluffy ones today. Cumulo Bigassedones.


:D:D:D:D:D

[BraggSurvivor]

The US was previously criticized by the international Do-Gooders when they used to subsidize the exporting of food

The US now being criticized for either turning its excess into fuel or charging a higher (market driven) price for it.

Seems it's your fault either way Rick. :D

I think this turnaround is merely forcing badly run nations to face up to reality: Enormous population growths, incompetent infrastructures, socialist economies and antiquated religious dogmas.

On the other hand, the cost of Fuel and Food is rising significantly for the average (North) American while wages are not keeping pace. This is a zero sum game. Something has to give. The piece of the pie for consumer spending devoted to Fuel and Food is expanding and it must be that the remainder of the spending pie is smaller for other expenditures. Hence my conclusion that our standard of living is changing significantly and for the worse.


Show me a democratic free market economy which has a food shortage....

[trax]

See you guys? I knew that disappearing food was Ricks fault all along. I have a tendency to misunderstand the posting headlines anyway. I see something that says "disappearing food" and I think, "no kidding, put a plate of bacon in front of me and watch the magic".

[Rick]

I've always been an advocate of helping others but we have kids that go to bed hungry at night right here in the world's bread basket. I would sure like to help them first.

[Alpine_Sapper]

I've always been an advocate of helping others but we have kids that go to bed hungry at night right here in the world's bread basket. I would sure like to help them first.

Give that man a cigar and a slab of bacon. Someone finally said it right.

[Packmaster308]

I found this a while back. Looks like a pretty complete list......

1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy...target of thieves; maintenance etc.)
2. Water Filters/Purifiers
3. Portable Toilets
4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses.
5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!)
6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much.
7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots.
8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks.
9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar
10. Rice - Beans - Wheat
11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,)
12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly)
13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking.
16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur.
17. Survival Guide Book.
18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.)
19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc.
20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry)
21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene)
22. Vitamins
23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item)
24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products.
25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms)
26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil)
27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item)
28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal)
29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many).
30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels
31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months)
32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST)
33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST)
34. Coleman's Pump Repair Kit
35. Tuna Fish (in oil)
36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room)
37. First aid kits
38. Batteries (all sizes...buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates)
39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies
40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food)
41. Flour, yeast & salt
42. Matches. {"Strike Anywhere" preferred.) Boxed, wooden matches will go first
43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators
44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.)
45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts
46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, "No. 76 Dietz" Lanterns
47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience; Historic Times)
48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels)
49. Men's Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc
50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient)
51. Fishing supplies/tools
52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams
53. Duct Tape
54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes
55. Candles
56. Laundry Detergent (liquid)
57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags
58. Garden tools & supplies
59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies
60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc.
61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite)
62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax)
63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel
64. Bicycles...Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc
65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats
66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered)
67. Board Games, Cards, Dice
68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer
69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets
70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks)
71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water)
72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc.
73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave)
74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels)
75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase
76. Reading glasses
77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers)
78. "Survival-in-a-Can"
79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens
80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog
81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO)
82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky
83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts
84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras)
85. Lumber (all types)
86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from)
87. Cots & Inflatable mattress's
88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc.
89. Lantern Hangers
90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts
91. Teas
92. Coffee
93. Cigarettes
94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,)
95. Paraffin wax
96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc.
97. Chewing gum/candies
98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing)
99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs
100. Goats/chickens

[Rick]

Yea, we cussed that list somewhere else on here. It's all over the net. There is so much on there I wouldn't even be bothered with.

[dilligaf2u2]

#92 looked like it should be about #13 and #3 should be Bacon. Who numbers these lists anyway?

Don

[cabingirl]

I was at the Sams warehouse in Memphis Tennessee today and saw that there is a sign saying that you are limited to only two bags of rice. I bet we are going to see more things being limited. Also noticed that they were low on pinto beans, and had raised the price another 14 cents a bag since only two days ago,If you have the money, it would be nice to buy up the soap,etc. before the prices start going up on that stuff.

[BraggSurvivor]

I went to another supermarket, and then another, and there was no butter at those either. Everywhere I went there were notices saying Japan has run out of butter.

Yes, the opening sentence was not referring to Egypt, Haiti, or the Philippines. Japan too is in the cross hairs of the Mad Max eCONomy.

http://wallstreetexaminer.com/blogs/winter/?p=1586#more-1586

Japan has run out of butter

[wareagle69]

we stock up all the time and store it in the bunker i just see it as good buisness decision buying allot of something when it is on sale, like peanut butter we have 20 jars it was on sale for 1.50 so you have to stock up, bought 4 more bags of rice today just cuz i know its gonna go up, but to me its not about stocking up so much as good economics...

[dilligaf2u2]

Mad Max eCONomy. I like this term. It about says it all.

Don

[Rick]

One of the things I'm doing different this year is to migrate food plants into my flower beds. I'm planting Basella Rubra, which is a climbing spinach that doesn't bolt. It can be used all summer. I'm also putting out Tropaeolum Azureum, which is a vining Blue Nasturtium. Both the flowers and leaves are edible on the Nasturtium. For those of you down south, especially Florida and south Texas, both of these are sub-tropical perennials. They will be annuals for my zone but I'll benefit for the summer.

I also planted blueberries and raspberries this year as well as black currants. And I'll be planting strawberries and watermelon.

On the edible flower side I'm putting out Calendula, Lemon Grass, another variant of Nasturtiums as well as the Cone Flowers and Bee Balm that I already have out.

By dehydrating and canning a lot from the garden that should cut down on what we need to buy and give us some home grown fruits and veggies this winter.

[BraggSurvivor]

One of the things I'm doing different this year is to migrate food plants into my flower beds. I'm planting Basella Rubra, which is a climbing spinach that doesn't bolt. It can be used all summer. I'm also putting out Tropaeolum Azureum, which is a vining Blue Nasturtium. Both the flowers and leaves are edible on the Nasturtium. For those of you down south, especially Florida and south Texas, both of these are sub-tropical perennials. They will be annuals for my zone but I'll benefit for the summer.

I also planted blueberries and raspberries this year as well as black currants. And I'll be planting strawberries and watermelon.

On the edible flower side I'm putting out Calendula, Lemon Grass, another variant of Nasturtiums as well as the Cone Flowers and Bee Balm that I already have out.

By dehydrating and canning a lot from the garden that should cut down on what we need to buy and give us some home grown fruits and veggies this winter.

That's excellent Rick, I just wish we had a longer growing season around here. I'm still kickin around the idea of the Hydo rotating garden.

[Rick]

I think you could do that without a lot of trouble. You know, tomatoes can be grown upside down. You could hang a 5 gallon bucket in the barn and just let the tomato plant stream to the floor. As long as it stays warm and has sunlight it will be just fine. Tell the kids you can't play Tarzan on it but otherwise it will work.

[Alpine_Sapper]

I think you could do that without a lot of trouble. You know, tomatoes can be grown upside down. You could hang a 5 gallon bucket in the barn and just let the tomato plant stream to the floor. As long as it stays warm and has sunlight it will be just fine. Tell the kids you can't play Tarzan on it but otherwise it will work.

The weight of the fruit doesn't damage the plant?

[Rick]

Nope! Here's a fancy shmancy type planter but you could use a 5 gallon bucket just as easy. You can let the plant drape over the side or cut a small hole in the bottom of the bucket and let the plant grow directly from the bottom.

http://topsyturvys.com/10001.html

5 gallon bucket version:

http://www.minifarmhomestead.com/gardening/tomato.htm

[Alpine_Sapper]

Nope! Here's a fancy shmancy type planter but you could use a 5 gallon bucket just as easy. You can let the plant drape over the side or cut a small hole in the bottom of the bucket and let the plant grow directly from the bottom.

http://topsyturvys.com/10001.html

5 gallon bucket version:

http://www.minifarmhomestead.com/gardening/tomato.htm

Sweet. Thnx 4 the info!

[Rick]

If you plant from the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket then you just remove the lid and water and add any fertilizers that you want to add.

I don't know about you folks down there but up here the tomatoes, peppers and eggplants can suffer from blossom end rot. It's caused by low calcium in the soil. If you have the same problem and use the 5 gallon bucket just add some lime (for the calcium) and some nitrate nitrogen for fertilizer (don't use Ammoniacal nitrogen. It will reduce the plants ability to uptake the calcium in the lime). It doesn't take much. You want the soil to have a pH of around 6.5

[jsrykken]

Well, just as a sort of educational exercise then:

Somewhere recently a website suggested a list of the seven items that would first disappear from store shelves in a panic emergency. I have lost the link. Most readers here probably would not be panicked in a crisis, real or imagined, but sometimes people do weird things based on almost any report from almost any source. I once heard of a book titled "The Extraordinary Madness of Crowds". Anyway, I think the seven would be:

Soap of any kind
Cigarettes/Tobacco Products
Alcohol of all kinds
Ammunition of all types
Firearms
Canned goods of all types
Flour

What do you say?

John

[Omid]

I saw that topsy turvy comercial on television... Its a piece of junk for what they sell it for. 20 bucks PLUS 15 bucks shipping!

Now that I know I can use a bucket... I am much happier.
______________________________________
oh yea, jsrykken dont forget mre's, and pepper spray. And if its legal in your state, tazers bb guns, anything for defense.

[mbarnatl]

Nope! Here's a fancy shmancy type planter but you could use a 5 gallon bucket just as easy. You can let the plant drape over the side or cut a small hole in the bottom of the bucket and let the plant grow directly from the bottom.

http://topsyturvys.com/10001.html

5 gallon bucket version:

http://www.minifarmhomestead.com/gardening/tomato.htm

Thanks Rick for the info. I'm going to try to grow my tomatoes that way. I am going to do all container gardening this year. I expect that we will be under water restrictions for the rest of the year, so container gardening is the way I am going. I will be using rain water and put a bucket in the shower to collect water while waiting for the shower water to warm up.

[Rick]

mbarnatl - You know the shower bucket idea is really a good one. I'll bet you'll be surprised how much water you save from going down the drain.

jsrykken - I have to agree with Remy. I think a lot depends on what the disaster is and whether it is anticipated or not. Plywood would be a bigey prior to a hurricane. Tarps or plastic sheeting might be the thing after a tornado to keep water out of your home.

[Rick]

After some additional thought on the subject, I think you could probably substitute for a lot of items that might be missing. For example:

TP = Kleenex
Soap of any kind = Homemade lye soap, Animal bathing products, baby shampoos
Rice = Cassava, Textured Vegetable Protein (TVP)
Wheat flour = rice, barley, oats and corn flour

are some examples. There are obviously a lot of other substitutions that could be made and a lot that can't. For example, Alcohol and ammunition are pretty much just that.

This might be a subject worthy of some effort like the multi use thread. That way if you go to Costco and they are out (or limiting the purchase of) product X then you would know what to substitute or how to get around it.

Thoughts?

[wareagle69]

two things

1st- ice, seen it go like hot cakes during the big blackout

2nd have you eaten tvp? i have can't make it taste good aksed on several different forums, everyone agrees, for protein intake i would just carry protein powder.

[Rick]

There you ago. Another alternative. TVP is a lot like rice cakes in my book. But it is edible.

[bulrush]

Here's my guess at what will be in short (or no) supply, based on news reports from recent years about floods and hurricanes. My list is based on the average American mall rat, not the knowledgable people here.

#1: bottled water. The average American does not know how to purify water, and past news reports indicate bottled water was gone in 12 hours of announcing an incoming hurricane or possible flood.

#2: canned and packaged food. People just want to heat something up quick, so they grab canned foods. Baked beans will go fast, because people saw an old west show and the cowboys were eating beans.

#3: propane. People can heat with it, cook with it. Not that they have a clue how to purify water with it.

[bulrush]

Note on upside-down tomatoes. Tomatoes need lots of sun, though indirect sun seems to be acceptable. Here in Michigan we get fairly high temperatures, in the high 80s mostly, and that dries out the container very quickly, in about 3 hours after watering. So the heat from the sun, and lack of water, damages the tomatoes roots, and they don't produce well. My sister had one, she is a pretty good gardener, and the plants all died in the planter.

While tomatoes are a "warm weather" plant, they are not a "bake in the oven" type of plant. They don't do well in hot desert conditions, which is what develops in those planters in a matter of hours.

So, in some areas you might have trouble doing it this way. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that you need to water them every 3-4 hours in the peak heat of the summer to prevent root damage.

[beerrunner13]

This is my first year in town an like I said in another thread almost everything this year is in containers or my wifes old flower beds. I already have watermelon vines a foot or so long in a raised bed along with some Cuban oregieo that is taheing over a section with some sunflowers [ I just like them]. In 5 gal buckets I have 5 diffrent kinds of tomatos to kind of sting out my picking times. I already have some 3 or 4 inch babies ib the early girl and a few on the pink beefsteak. I started a Russian brown prince right beforeI went on my trip and it is flowering nicley.
The peppers are doing well in the pots also and I have picked 2 jalipeneos alredy and have some golf ball size sweet bells and the hot Thais are geting little babies on the all but one plant is flowered up nice.
I have eggplant and mint in another bed and they are doing well the eggplant is a real suprise I didn't know how well it would do in the sandy soil, wish I had put more in.the mint not as good but I;ll have more the enough for tea all year.
I started a few more watermelons in buckets when I got home , don't have much hope for them but wanted to give it a tryas I put up a lot of watermelon wine every year.

Wish I had more room here this is my first year in as long as I can remember with out a big garden but it will get me and the wife through and I just like to grow stuff. Oh yeah my Moss roses are doing great. You don't need a lot of room to have a little garden and the buckets sure akem weeding a lot eaisier.

[cajun swamp hunter]

I have 4 of those huge containers from Lowes stocked with can goods and other supplies. 2- 55 gallon drums of fuel for the generator. I also stock cases of bottled water and also have purifiers. We go through hurricanes pretty often here and after being out of power for more than a month it can change your attitude when it comes to being prepared. One thing no one listed is a air conditioner or fans, down here with 100 percent humidity and plus 100 degree heat for a few days it will take it out of anyone. After katrina and Rita the only change I made was to buy more buckshot and fertilizer as what I had on hand just did not seem to be enough.

[canid]

i have concluded for my part that by itself, tvp is not fit for consumption unless i was at the depths of starvation.

i like to reconstitute it with dried and minced Blewit or oyster mushroom [or almost any mushroom that dries well] and add an egg for thickening and cohesion. seasoning helps too [minced green/spring onion is a charm]. it can be quite good with enough help, but alas it will never be critter bits.

i would find it a terrible substitute for rice though.

[Rick]

Cajun - Fans don't cool at that temperature. In fact, they can cause hyperthermia because the hot air they move across your skin can warm you faster than your body can compensate. In fact, once the temperature reaches the high 90's you are at risk by using fans. They don't cool. They only move hot air around.

Now, air conditioners.....Aaaaaaah.

[crashdive123]

....but, fans can speep up evaporation to cool the body. Just add sweat or a small spray bottle (of water, not sweat).

[Rick]

Not once the temp is in the high 90's and above. The water spray will work but not the sweat (oooooooo!).

See Number 14.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/extremeheat/faq.asp

[crashdive123]

Here's an effective product that I have used quite a bit during power outages when the temps are high. https://www.mistymate.com/shop/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,55/category_id,1/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,26/

Didn't buy it from this website.

[Rick]

Interesting product.

We had a tornado in 1980 and we were without power about 10 days. The temps during that time never got below 100 even at 3 or 4 in the morning. About the only relief was cold showers.

[crashdive123]

They do work well. I've been to some outside events when the temp has been 100+ where they had some of the bigger commercial misting fans, or just misting nozzles on the edge of a canopy. They work really well. If you're in an area where there is very low humidity it almost gets kind of chilly.

[cajun swamp hunter]

100 percent plus humidity here always and you can say fans dont work but it sure brings up the morale and feels awesome. I cannot quote a book but only experience. Its the 24/7 nature of the heat that wears you down. Hard to get any rest at night swimming in a hot tub for sheets. Everyone will fight to get in the area of the fan which makes it bearable to get some rest. The heat here is way different than dry heat. Everyting is dripping all the time, if we could just remove the humidity it would make it a whole lot more bearable.

[Tahyo]

When I was kid in La., we always used the "Coonass A/C". Put a fan in the window blowing out on the opposite side of the house, close all the windows except for the one over your bed and then just lay perfectly still. Even in some of the hottest nights I woke up getting a chill.

[crashdive123]

That or a home made swamp cooler. Blow the fan across a bag/bowl of ice.

[Rick]

Personally, I was shocked when I read about the fan in high temps. I just hadn't thought about it I guess. But it makes sense. If you are just blowing hot air over your skin you stand the chance of warming your body faster than it can cool itself.