Would you do it?

[Alpine_Sapper]

I'm having an ethical debate with one of my friends as to whether or not this is morally correct, and whether the following scenario is poaching or not.

Ok, so here's a scenario:

You're supporting a family with kids. Due to the economical situation, and the cost of food, the grocery bill is preventing other things from getting paid. You live in the middle of the city, but less than a mile from where you are located are several large houses with lots of land. The land is posted "No Hunting" and have notices up about poaching violations. There are deer ALL OVER the place. Literally, every time you walk by, you spook somewhere between 20-30 deer, depending on the time of day. Now, at this time of year there are quite a few fawns, but the Stags are still around, or course. While most of the lands are posted no hunting, there are a few specific areas where the deer like to bed down that is NOT POSTED. It's not even fenced, really. The deer are extremely accustomed to humans, and only spook at really loud noises or large dogs. While it is illegal to discharge a firearm inside the city limits, I do not believe there are city ordinances regarding taking game, or using a bow and arrow. That being said, if you believed you could quitely take a stag with a bow and butcher it on the spot, would you attempt it, if it meant cutting your grocery bill significantly? Would you attempt a different method other than a bow?

[Rick]

No, I wouldn't. I don't want to drone on but the financial situation described is not "someone else's" fault. If you are running that tight then you are living at or above your means. That's contrary to what you should be doing on a fiscal level. Perhaps a second or third income is needed OR you reduce expenditures to bring things back in line.

That said, based solely on the information you provided, there are many other options available to you and your family. I'll make the assumption here that you have no financial options as outlined above. You live in a city so contact a food pantry, your church, the Salvation Army or your city or county welfare office and inquire about assistance. Talk to a game warden about harvesting a road kill deer. Those guys are pretty amiable about helping out.

If, for whatever reason, none of that is not an option then talk to the landowner. Explain the situation and offer to clean up your mess and/or take two and butcher one for the land owner as payment. Or do some work around their property as payment.

If they say no and there are that many deer around then there are probably abundant deer outside the city limits as well.

I'm not black and white on the laws. There will always be exceptions but I don't think this is the case here. Not with all the other options that are available.

[Alpine_Sapper]

No, I wouldn't. I don't want to drone on but the financial situation described is not "someone else's" fault. If you are running that tight then you are living at or above your means. That's contrary to what you should be doing on a fiscal level. Perhaps a second or third income is needed OR you reduce expenditures to bring things back in line.

That said, based solely on the information you provided, there are many other options available to you and your family. I'll make the assumption here that you have no financial options as outlined above. You live in a city so contact a food pantry, your church, the Salvation Army or your city or county welfare office and inquire about assistance. Talk to a game warden about harvesting a road kill deer. Those guys are pretty amiable about helping out.

If, for whatever reason, none of that is not an option then talk to the landowner. Explain the situation and offer to clean up your mess and/or take two and butcher one for the land owner as payment. Or do some work around their property as payment.

If they say no and there are that many deer around then there are probably abundant deer outside the city limits as well.

I'm not black and white on the laws. There will always be exceptions but I don't think this is the case here. Not with all the other options that are available.

First, this isn't something I'm looking at doing. It was kinda one of those "Man, I'd like to..." and my buddy is like "It's illegal!" And then the argument started, continue over a few beers, and I decided to get some outside viewpoints on the issue. My point about the financial issues is simply that it would ease some tension on the grocery bill.

So you would consider it poaching? Immoral? Or simply illegal?

[Rick]

I took it for what you described. Just a "what if" kind of a thing. I think, under these circumstances, all three, IMHO. I'm sure a judge would say illegal and poaching. As for the immoral, I guess that goes with what you believe in your heart at the time. Someone may truly believe that's their only option to feed their kids so I can't say that would be immoral if that's what they believed.

[Ole WV Coot]

I guess I am rude, crude and socially unacceptable but if my family needs food for whatever reason I could drop any animal and not worry about it. I don't think it will ever come to that but I kinda do what I have to do. I survive, done things I ain't proud of but I am here to tell about it.

[nell67]

Persoanlly,I would do it,if it meant I did not have to rely on the food stamp program,you bet,if I land in jail ,so be it,I seriously doubt that they would take the meat away from my kids knowing they were eating and tell them they had to go to a soup kitchen or food bank to eat.

[mitch.chesney]

You could argue the overpopulation of deer would benefit from select hunting, even if that meant poaching. So long as you and maybe only a handful of others hunt, and limit your take per year, it will cull the herd and prevent starvation-related die-offs. On the other hand, if you can't afford your bills for whatever reason, you shouldn't steal from neighbors better off. Bridging this ethical gap, if you had to resort to poaching, you might broker a deal with the land owner arguing my first point. Maybe give him 20% of each kill, or learn to professionally tan hides and make him/her something nice from the pelt. It's "mutual poaching" :D

[Chuck]

As far as I'm concerned subsistence use of resources should trump all other uses. If I saw someone popping an animal for food to feed their family I would turn my back and walk away. Game laws are for sport hunting and totally ignore subsistence hunting which should trump any other use of wildlife. I have not been in the position to do it so I'm not sure what I would do myself.

[Tahyo]

I grew up in the Cajun culture of sw La. where poaching is considered, or use to be considered part of the culture. It was most always done to put food on the table regardless of laws. I won't debate whether it was right or wrong, but it was a matter of "getting by" for the people I did know who did it. I'm not saying there weren't some who did it just to "poach", but for some of those people it was a means of keeping food on the table from time to time.
Poaching is illegal, so I thing the two go hand in hand, but immoral.... I think Rick said it pretty well. Immorality to me is something that each person would have to decide

I think if it were a case of "tshtf" type scenario, I would have no problem harvesting anything I needed to keep the family fed. One of my favorite sayings regarding that outlook is, "Insure your survival, keep your dog and neighbors fat".

[BraggSurvivor]

I think it as completely illegal and down right wrong. What ever happened to asking the land owners for permission? Is it so hard? They post those signs to keep a bunch of self professed commando's running around their property shooting everything in sight, when their children are out exploring and playing.

Last year I caught two guys poaching on my property. Found their hidden truck on the line road. I went back to the house, got the tractor and drug it back in park all the way back to the barns. I have NO TRESSPASSING and NO HUNTING signs posted at every entrance and they still chose to trespass. Took them 3 days to grow balls big enough to come and get their truck back.

I have no problem with hunters. They have to ask me for permission is all. I want to let them know where they can hunt, where my livestock is and what roads they cannot hunt near. I want control as to how many people are on my land and how many animals are being taken. I want to know my kids are safe walking home from the bus.

Simple: ask permission.

[BraggSurvivor]

As for being in need, just ask as well. I always have meat in the freezer, we would glad to give you some to get you by.

[Alpine_Sapper]

I think it as completely illegal and down right wrong. What ever happened to asking the land owners for permission? Is it so hard? They post those signs to keep a bunch of self professed commando's running around their property shooting everything in sight, when their children are out exploring and playing.

Last year I caught two guys poaching on my property. Found their hidden truck on the line road. I went back to the house, got the tractor and drug it back in park all the way back to the barns. I have NO TRESSPASSING and NO HUNTING signs posted at every entrance and they still chose to trespass. Took them 3 days to grow balls big enough to come and get their truck back.

I have no problem with hunters. They have to ask me for permission is all. I want to let them know where they can hunt, where my livestock is and what roads they cannot hunt near. I want control as to how many people are on my land and how many animals are being taken. I want to know my kids are safe walking home from the bus.

Simple: ask permission.

I totally agree with that.

My issue is that the land that is unfenced is also unposted, and not owned by any of the homeowners in the area from what I can tell, since it's not fenced. It's actually in between two subdivisions with a television station on the back side, with a large lot of land across the street that IS Posted. It's really kind of unfit for development so appears to have been left alone. The deer don't apparently read english very well, so they cross the street and bed down in the wooded unposted land across the street. I would never consider taking game from a posted area without permission, but I figured since it wasn't posted, it was pretty much "free game" if one was so inclined.

My only real concern would be whether the landowner who posted all the signs actually imported the deer to roam his land for aethetic reasons. Then, I guess I'd have to consider it stealing, but otherwise they're part of natures bounty afaik.

[BraggSurvivor]

I dont know if I would want to take the chance of getting caught being in city limits. You'd be in a real pickle getting caught by the landowners or the police. Who would feed the kids and pay the bills when your sitting in jail?


Buy two rabbits and within 6 weeks youd have all the meat you would need.

[mitch.chesney]

There is such a thing called "recreational trespass (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cwij2355vyvwwe4540p3fujp))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-324-73102)" for non-farmland in Michigan. Basically a physical 'loophole' in your sign postings where, if I stand at point X and cannot see a no-trespassing-type sign, I can enter at point X and be within my rights even if I know it's private property. Likewise if you have a stream or river running through your property, I could walk along it up to high tide mark (usually just the banks for inland rivers) and be within my rights. You need to be aware of this stuff when bushwhacking out of state and national parks since everything is owned by someone these days.

[nell67]

I dont know if I would want to take the chance of getting caught being in city limits. You'd be in a real pickle getting caught by the landowners or the police. Who would feed the kids and pay the bills when your sitting in jail?


Buy two rabbits and within 6 weeks youd have all the meat you would need.
takes a little longer than 6 weeks to get the offspring up to butchering size,LOL.

[BraggSurvivor]

takes a little longer than 6 weeks to get the offspring up to butchering size,LOL.


You can skin and butcher 5 rabbits to every chicken given the same amount of time. Ive butchers broilers at 6 weeks.

[nell67]

I've raised rabbits all my life,and the average age to a desiraable buttchering weight is 43 months,you can cut the time down by cross breeding with some of the larger breed rabbits,but only by about 2 weeks.maybe you grow them faster in Canada?

And yes 6 weeksi s about average for butchering chickens.

[Alpine_Sapper]

I've raised rabbits all my life,and the average age to a desiraable buttchering weight is 43 months,you can cut the time down by cross breeding with some of the larger breed rabbits,but only by about 2 weeks.maybe you grow them faster in Canada?

And yes 6 weeksi s about average for butchering chickens.

Do you raise rabbits for pets, food, or resale ( or some reason I'm not seeing?)

[Rick]

I had a buddy that decided to poach ducks from a boat at night with a spotlight. His only problem was the game warden was watching the show. They took the shotgun, his spotlight, his boat and he got to pay $5000.00 for poaching a migratory bird with no stamp or license. Let's see, pay $5000 that I haven't got or ask permission or seek help.....let's see...

[BraggSurvivor]

nell, I always (use to) butchered at 6-7 weeks old, just before weaning. I liked the meat better and the texture was more like veal. Their weight was about 2-3 lbs dressed. Cant remember the breed.....i'll post when my wife gets home.

[nell67]

Do you raise rabbits for pets, food, or resale ( or some reason I'm not seeing?)

Main purpose was food,have raised them for that purpose since I was a child,my kids showed them in 4-h until last year,we have sold them to the Amish and others for meat,never advertised them,they stop and ask,have also sold them for breeding,and I have raised a few breeds mainly for show.Never as pets.
Bragg,dressing weight was 5lbs.

[nell67]

nell, I always (use to) butchered at 6-7 weeks old, just before weaning. I liked the meat better and the texture was more like veal. Their weight was about 2-3 lbs dressed. Cant remember the breed.....i'll post when my wife gets home.
What color were they? For meat breeds,I prefer,Californians,and New Zealand Whites and Reds.

[BraggSurvivor]

Ya know nell, it was years ago, it was my wifes venture but I think they started out brown. If I remember correctly they ended up all sots of colors when she ended it.

We let a few loose and they did well for a year or two but I think the cougars got 99% of them. I still see the odd one running around.

[trax]

I'd drop that deer in a heartbeat before I'd accept foodstamps and I believe, that's the moral choice. I'm feeding family versus accepting handouts to feed my family. Sometimes illegal only means you got caught.

[FVR]

I think that poaching is morally wrong. But, I really don't need to worry about it. Why, because in Georgia, you have small game which includes hogs from August 15 to the end of Feb., Deer is also in from mid Sept. to Dec. 21., Turkey starts mid March as does hog again till the end of May, which also incorp. trout fishing.

Let's see, then you have the Hooch, the Etawoh which holds large qtys of snapping turtles along with many other edible fish.

You can hunt coyotes, hogs, and beavers year round. I'll eat dog and rats if hungry.

I do not buy into poaching to feed the family.

If they are that bad off, there are many social programs that are made available not to mention clubs like coupon mom and others that help you get the most for your buck.

I would not shoot a deer out of season for any reason, now, I would however take out an old truck, speed a little on the back road, and if I see a deer, I just may accelerate.

I can put my ego to the side if I need to feed my family. It would be hard, but it's not about me, it's about the kids and wife.



Oh yeh, if SHTF scenario, all bets off.

That fluffy 30lb lazy arse cat that belongs to the neighbors, hmmmmm.....skin'm, stick an apple in it's mouth, and can you say Kitty on the Barby?

[Aurelius95]

I would not shoot a deer out of season for any reason, now, I would however take out an old truck, speed a little on the back road, and if I see a deer, I just may accelerate.

Reminds me of a Ron White joke where he talks about his brother who goes deer hunting, getting up early in the cold, pouring deer p*ss on himself, shooting it with some high velocity rifle. Ron responds that deer are "such elusive critters! " I hit one in a van going 50 mph. Try slowing your bullet down, putting a horn on it, and the deer will practically throw itself in its path.

:D

[vagrant]

Reminds me of a Ron White joke where he talks about his brother who goes deer hunting, getting up early in the cold, pouring deer p*ss on himself, shooting it with some high velocity rifle. Ron responds that deer are "such elusive critters! " I hit one in a van going 50 mph. Try slowing your bullet down, putting a horn on it, and the deer will practically throw itself in its path.

Made me roar with laughter too. :D As to the original post I would rather try and fish first then to poach a deer. I would only do it in a SHTF scenario myself. If you got into such a poor situation that your family's next meal was in jeopardy there is always government programs. Swallowing your pride and feeding your family is better than going to jail and not being able to provide for them in the worst of times.

[Alpine_Sapper]

Made me roar with laughter too. :D As to the original post I would rather try and fish first then to poach a deer. I would only do it in a SHTF scenario myself. If you got into such a poor situation that your family's next meal was in jeopardy there is always government programs. Swallowing your pride and feeding your family is better than going to jail and not being able to provide for them in the worst of times.

Ah, but the question is, is it still poaching if you're on public land, next to the posted land? The main issue, as far as I can see it, would be that you are hunting in the middle of the city. Sure, the landowner may get mad that you killed one of the deer that frequent his land, but, technically, unless there is a law against taking game in the city, you wouldn't be doing anything wrong, right?

[vagrant]

I'm not sure where you are from but from my little experience there are gaming laws in most areas. There are defined hunting seasons for specific weapons and methods. I would find any other method of supplying food to my family and consider poaching as a last resort. My state is incredibly strict on taking any game out of season and most hunters in this state would report signs of poaching. They would rather give someone the meat out of their freezer than to see them poach to feed a family. :) So, in essence, poaching imho is unethical.:)

[Alpine_Sapper]

I'm not sure where you are from but from my little experience there are gaming laws in most areas. There are defined hunting seasons for specific weapons and methods. I would find any other method of supplying food to my family and consider poaching as a last resort. My state is incredibly strict on taking any game out of season and most hunters in this state would report signs of poaching. They would rather give someone the meat out of their freezer than to see them poach to feed a family. :) So, in essence, poaching imho is unethical.:)

*shrugs* Call me immoral if you want considering I could care less what time of year it is, it's a moot point. I found this today;

Sec. 21-13. Missiles.

It shall be unlawful for any person within the city to throw stones or other missiles, or to shoot with a bow and arrow, or to shoot or discharge any stone or other missile with or from a sling or from an elastic spring.

So even if you were "in season", it would still be illegal.

Thanks for playing, everybody! :D

[Rick]

See. At one of those city council meeting the conversation went like this....
Councilman: "You know. That Alpine has been eyeing those deer in that vacant lot."
2nd Councilman: "And he's just the type to try and poach 'em."
3rd Councilman: "Probably with a bow and arrow. He's sneaky like that."
Mayor: "All in favor of passing a law...."

[Alpine_Sapper]

See. At one of those city council meeting the conversation went like this....
Councilman: "You know. That Alpine has been eyeing those deer in that vacant lot."
2nd Councilman: "And he's just the type to try and poach 'em."
3rd Councilman: "Probably with a bow and arrow. He's sneaky like that."
Mayor: "All in favor of passing a law...."

rofl. Yep, you got it. ;)

[Ole WV Coot]

To eat or not to eat. I really don't see any reason to debate ethics since you can't eat them. I learned to hunt for meat. Before I was old enough for a gun I would go with another kid and set rabbit boxes in a few holes, check them them next morning, clean our catch and hope we didn't miss the school bus. Same with fish, a bunch of us without a license over 16 would fish out in the open. Usually one or two DID have a license so when the game warden came to check they ran like crazy, he chased them and we got away. Never felt any guilt about that either.

[Rick]

Coot - I don't think anyone has a problem if hunting and fishing is the ONLY option. You just do it. All I was saying is if there are other options available to get food then I wouldn't poach.