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View Full Version : For my BOB... An extractor.



Tootsiepop254
04-03-2013, 12:03 PM
I live in rattlesnake country, and grew up with a 'snake bite kit' in my pocket. It was one of those little egg things that had the twin razor blades to slice open a bite. Know what I'm talking about?

So I was pleasantly surprised to find the Extractor, a venom remover that you don't have to slice yourself up to use. Supposed to work on all bites and stings. This thing has a home in my bag now.

Has anyone had any experience with this or similar?

welderguy
04-03-2013, 12:12 PM
I dont use them, I dont recommend them either. Below is a excerpt from a wiki and a link to a clinical study and a link to a doctors review. Judge for yourself if they work or not.

"Sucking out venom, either by mouth or with a pump, does not work and may harm the affected area directly.[41] Suction started after 3 minutes removes a clinically insignificant quantity—less than one thousandth of the venom injected—as shown in a human study.[42] In a study with pigs, suction not only caused no improvement but led to necrosis in the suctioned area.[43] Suctioning by mouth presents a risk of further poisoning through the mouth's mucous tissues.[44] The well-meaning family member or friend may also release bacteria into the victim's wound, leading to infection."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11055564

http://www.doctorross.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bush-sp-snakebite-suction-devices-suck-emerg-med-clin-n-am.pdf

kyratshooter
04-03-2013, 01:11 PM
You're gonna die!

Actually deaths from snakebite in the U.S. are rare.

Back in the old days they diluted the poison in the bloodstream with massive doses of alcahol. I have testimoney from an Army Captain of 1858 who claimed he never lost a man when alcahol was administered soon after the bite.

Tootsiepop254
04-03-2013, 01:44 PM
Alcohol? Drinking or rubbing?

crashdive123
04-03-2013, 02:51 PM
Oh, I'm sure it was the drinking kind.:wine::drunk:

Tootsiepop254
04-03-2013, 03:36 PM
Lol Crash! Its the first thing I would do if I were bit by a snake - dose myself with massive amounts of tequila!!

Seriously, thanks for the info guys. Guess that's what happens when I make impolse purchases!

finallyME
04-03-2013, 05:42 PM
I bought the same thing.......then I started doing research on the subject. It stays home now.
This link isn't from a medical journal or anything. You can judge for yourself.
http://www.itstactical.com/medcom/medical/how-to-treat-a-venomous-snake-bite-from-a-crotalid/

jerrynj
04-03-2013, 05:46 PM
I was in the field with a buddy I was serving with and while taking a leak a rattler bit him in the junk. I called doc and asked what to do. He said "someone has to suck the venom out, wheres the wound?" I said it was on his privates and I don't think I can do that. He said "you have to or he will die." I said okay and hung up the phone. My buddy asked "what did Doc say?" He said, Sorry, there is nothing we can do, Your gonna die.

welderguy
04-03-2013, 05:49 PM
I bought the same thing.......then I started doing research on the subject. It stays home now.
This link isn't from a medical journal or anything. You can judge for yourself.
http://www.itstactical.com/medcom/medical/how-to-treat-a-venomous-snake-bite-from-a-crotalid/

Thats pretty much the consensus of a lot of people on them kits, over the last several years.

GreatUsername
04-04-2013, 01:12 AM
BoyScouts also revised their suggestions about snakebites, as they once supported the "slice and suck" method, but now they suggest instead drinking as many fluids as possible, keeping the bitten area below the level of the heart, keeping calm and inactive if possible, to prevent elevated heart rate, and taking double doses of anti-allergy medications to help lessen the immediate effects. In emergencies where you are alone and must self rescue, I've heard reccommendations to put a compress above the bite on the limb, tight enough to restrict blood-flow but not cut it off entirely, to slow the venom dispersal. After a day or two of heavy drinking and keeping restful, the effects should either have killed you or lessened enough to allow you to CAREFULLY self-rescue.


Prevention is better than treatment: if you're walking through brush in snake country, wear good boots and tap the ground ahead of you with a stick.

welderguy
04-04-2013, 02:32 AM
This was copied from my most recent first aid book (2012)
If a snake bites you

Remain calm.
Immobilize the bitten arm or leg, and stay as quiet as possible to keep the poison from spreading through your body.
Remove jewelry before you start to swell.
Position yourself, if possible, so that the bite is at or below the level of your heart.
Cleanse the wound, but don't flush it with water, and cover it with a clean, dry dressing.
Apply a splint to reduce movement of the affected area, but keep it loose enough so as not to restrict blood flow.
Don't use a tourniquet or apply ice.
Don't cut the wound or attempt to remove the venom.
Don't drink caffeine or alcohol.
Don't try to capture the snake, but try to remember its color and shape so you can describe it, which will help in your treatment.
Call 911 or seek immediate medical attention, especially if the area changes color, begins to swell or is painful.

This is copied out of my EMT book....

As with all medical emergencies, the goal is to support the patient until arrival at the emergency department. The dictum " primum no nocere " (first, do no harm) has significant meaning here because many poorly substantiated treatments may cause more harm than good, including making an incision over the bite, mouth suctioning, tourniquet use, ice packs, or electric shock.
Appropriate field care should adhere to the basic tenants of emergency life support.
Reassure the patient during the implementation of ABCs.
Monitor vital signs and establish at least one large-bore IV and initiate crystalloid infusion. Administer oxygen therapy. Keep a close watch on the airway at all times in case intubation becomes necessary.
Restrict activity and immobilize the affected area (commonly an extremity); keep walking to a minimum.
Immediately transfer to definitive care.
Do not give antivenin in the field.


and the effect of venom...

Enzymatic proteins in venom impart its destructive properties. Proteases, collagenase, and arginine ester hydrolase have been identified in pit viper venom. Neurotoxins comprise the majority of coral snake venom. Specific details are known for several enzymes as follows: (1) hyaluronidase allows rapid spread of venom through subcutaneous tissues by disrupting mucopolysaccharides; (2) phospholipase A2 plays a major role in hemolysis secondary to the esterolytic effect on red cell membranes and promotes muscle necrosis; and (3) thrombogenic enzymes promote the formation of a weak fibrin clot, which, in turn, activates plasmin and results in a consumptive coagulopathy and its hemorrhagic consequences.

Enzyme concentrations vary among species, thereby causing dissimilar envenomations. Copperhead bites generally are limited to local tissue destruction. Rattlesnakes can leave impressive wounds and cause systemic toxicity. Coral snakes may leave a small wound that later results in respiratory failure from systemic neuromuscular blockade.

The local effects of venom serve as a reminder of the potential for systemic disruption of organ system function. One effect is local bleeding; coagulopathy is not uncommon with severe envenomation. Another effect, local edema, increases capillary leak and interstitial fluid in the lungs. Pulmonary mechanics may be altered significantly. The final effect, local cell death, increases lactic acid concentration secondary to changes in volume status and requires increased minute ventilation. The effects of neuromuscular blockade result in poor diaphragmatic excursion. Cardiac failure can result from hypotension and acidosis. Myonecrosis raises concerns about myoglobinuria and renal damage.

hunter63
04-04-2013, 09:41 AM
I was in the field with a buddy I was serving with and while taking a leak a rattler bit him in the junk. I called doc and asked what to do. He said "someone has to suck the venom out, wheres the wound?" I said it was on his privates and I don't think I can do that. He said "you have to or he will die." I said okay and hung up the phone. My buddy asked "what did Doc say?" He said, Sorry, there is nothing we can do, Your gonna die.

Ah, yes a veration of the old "LeRoy joke"......
.....Doc says, lay on your side in a fetal position,.... then I cup one hand around your ear, then cup the other hand around your ear.....and say..."Goodby, LeRoy, you gonna die"

Tootsiepop254
04-04-2013, 03:36 PM
HAHA guys! So I'll be leaving the sucker-outter at home. Sure I can find another use for it. I guess the best plan of all is to not get bit in the first place!

Rick
04-04-2013, 07:31 PM
We've talked about this before. A snake uses it's venom for food gathering and self defense. It doesn't always invenomate you when it bites you. Either by choice or because it has recently eaten. Most snakes have a venom gland controlled by a compressor muscle. So it's up to them if the inject venom or not.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/snake-venom.gif (http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/snake-venom.gif)

Since most snakes are harmless and those that are poisonous don't spit with each bite I don't carry a snake bite kit.

GreatUsername
04-05-2013, 03:05 AM
One note though: juveniles of venomous species are typically more dangerous and should be avoided more diligently, as they are prone to accidental invenomation, because they lack the degree of control over their venom glands their adult counterparts have.

crashdive123
04-05-2013, 05:49 AM
Yep. Premature invenomation is a terrible thing.:innocent:

jfeatherjohn
04-05-2013, 02:06 PM
The extractors do work pretty well in stings, anecdotaly. Since being stung by an insect is much more common than being bitten by a viper, the conversation may not be closed.

welderguy
04-05-2013, 02:39 PM
The extractors do work pretty well in stings, anecdotaly. Since being stung by an insect is much more common than being bitten by a viper, the conversation may not be closed.

In persons that are not allergic to an insect sting, I.E. bee and wasps, there is really very little benefit in trying to extract the toxin. It doesnt reduce the Itch or sting, To be honest an extractor does have a place in a medical kit, It is a good tool for extracting puss from boils that have been lanced.

Rick
04-05-2013, 07:34 PM
"Hooooock. Hooooock. Did you have to post.....Hoooock.....that?

welderguy
04-05-2013, 07:50 PM
"Hooooock. Hooooock. Did you have to post.....Hoooock.....that?

Sheeees I left out the pictures!!!

crashdive123
04-05-2013, 10:14 PM
In persons that are not allergic to an insect sting, I.E. bee and wasps, there is really very little benefit in trying to extract the toxin. It doesnt reduce the Itch or sting, To be honest an extractor does have a place in a medical kit, It is a good tool for extracting puss from boils that have been lanced.


"Hooooock. Hooooock. Did you have to post.....Hoooock.....that?

Better get a bigger extractor.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33n-IS8a1S4

welderguy
04-05-2013, 10:43 PM
HAHAHAHa I bet Rick looses his cookies !!!

ElevenBravo
04-06-2013, 04:37 PM
I have one, not sure if it will do much good, if any good.... on a snake bite... BUT it works like gold for bee stings, etc!!

HTH,
EB

Batch
04-06-2013, 10:04 PM
The reason extractors don't work is that the venom is absorbed through tissue quickly. The venom of bees, wasps, spiders etc. absorb the same way. so, how then is the extractor more effective on those types of envenom instances? Bee stings warrant fast removal of the stinger. Because, the bee disembowels the stinger and it continues to pump while in you. Quickly removing the stinger is important. Studies show that pinching and pulling and scraping show no greater increase in discomfort. But, I still scrape to avoid pinching out extra venom.

My single use for my extractor in all the many years I owned it was when my brother Sean had this golf ball sized cyst on the back of his leg behind his knee. After it popped naturally I used that extractor to extract the rest of the pussy stuff. That was nasty as all hell. LOL

My drill will be stay calm, seek immediate medical attention, get "Venom One" on the case asap. Mark and monitor the bite every 15 minutes. I know my snakes. But, the anti-venom for all but the coral snake down here is the same. Anti-venom for coral snakes has been discontinued due to lack of demand. Though it can be brought from Mexico.

welderguy
04-06-2013, 11:13 PM
Crofab is the anti venom for all pit vipers , All supplies of coral snake anti venom expired in 2009 from what I have heard!!

Batch
04-06-2013, 11:57 PM
Crofab is the anti venom for all pit vipers , All supplies of coral snake anti venom expired in 2009 from what I have heard!!

Crofab is a company and not an anti-venom. They produce a sheep based anti-venom.


http://www.miamidade.gov/fire/library/antivenom-species-covered.pdf

Like I said. You can get coral snake anti-venom. But, not here in Florida.

welderguy
04-07-2013, 12:03 AM
Crofab is a company and not an anti-venom. They produce a sheep based anti-venom.


http://www.miamidade.gov/fire/library/antivenom-species-covered.pdf

Like I said. You can get coral snake anti-venom. But, not here in Florida.

No actualy the name of the anti venom is crofab * © CroFab® and DigiFab® are manufactured by/registered trademarks of Protherics US Inc., Brentwood, TN 37027 and distributed by Savage Laboratories

Batch
04-07-2013, 12:14 AM
Crofab is the anti venom for all pit vipers , All supplies of coral snake anti venom expired in 2009 from what I have heard!!

Crofab is a company and not an anti-venom. They produce a sheep based anti-venom.

http://www.miamidade.gov/fire/library/antivenom-species-covered.pdf

welderguy
04-07-2013, 12:16 AM
CroFab is the commercial name for a Crotalidae Polyvalent Immune Fab (Ovine) snake antivenom

http://www.crofab.com/about-crofab/production

welderguy
04-07-2013, 12:23 AM
http://i678.photobucket.com/albums/vv149/welderguy/SAV03300_zps24e1ac8c.jpg


Packaging......

Batch
04-07-2013, 02:48 PM
You are correct. I was mistaken.

welderguy
04-07-2013, 03:29 PM
I spoke with a friend of mine a few minutes ago thats an ER doc, and asked him what is the SOP for coral snake bites now that there is no antivenin available. He said they induce a chemical coma, intubate and let the venom wear off. WTF!!!!! I said your joking right, he said nope thats all we got !!!!! They legally cant use anything now because its not FDA approved . He said the MFG that made it stopped because of cost to use ration, apparently its around 1600.00 a vial .

welderguy
04-07-2013, 03:31 PM
You are correct. I was mistaken.

Thank you!!!

Batch
04-07-2013, 04:30 PM
I spoke with a friend of mine a few minutes ago thats an ER doc, and asked him what is the SOP for coral snake bites now that there is no antivenin available. He said they induce a chemical coma, intubate and let the venom wear off. WTF!!!!! I said your joking right, he said nope thats all we got !!!!! They legally cant use anything now because its not FDA approved . He said the MFG that made it stopped because of cost to use ration, apparently its around 1600.00 a vial .

I didn't see this when I posted. The stuff I read also said that the coral snake antivenom available from Mexico worked better than the antivenom that was made here. But, because the market is so small here no one is going to pay what the FDA wants to get it approved here.

welderguy
04-07-2013, 04:33 PM
I didn't see this when I posted. The stuff I read also said that the coral snake antivenom available from Mexico worked better than the antivenom that was made here. But, because the market is so small here no one is going to pay what the FDA wants to get it approved here.

Yeah I followed up on some reading after I talked to Doc, I think i read its a 1.5 to 3 mill dollars to get an FDA approval. My guess is people will be a lot more willing now to kill the coral snake than before.

welderguy
04-07-2013, 04:36 PM
As a side note, I wonder if its that costly to get all drugs FDA approved!, who is this money paid to and why does it cost so damn much! ISNT FDA a federal funded organisation?

Tootsiepop254
05-27-2013, 03:56 AM
I'm not sure how funded they are. They've always struck me as an oversight committee, and face it, the big companies can pay the big bucks to get their drug approved. Most we got here are rattlers, which seem to be peaceful enough unless its fall (breeding season).