What could they have done?

[LINDEN KNIGHT]

A few days ago a Scout leader father and his two young sons (8 and 10) died from exposure in eastern Missouri, my home state, having gotten lost on a day hike. Complete details may be found with a google search "Father, 2 sons die while hiking in SE Missouri"

It was a great day (in the 60's) but during the hike the temperature fell into the 20's and a heavy rain began to fall. They were dressed lightly, with the father wearing a jacket...the kids wore a fleece and a sweater. Apparently they had no rain gear. They also had a cellphone (obviously no reception) and a flashlight, both of which were no longer functioning when the three were found the next morning. I don't know if they had any matches or lighters. There were no bluff shelters in the area.

Earlier, they had been offered a ride but turned it down, believing they would soon be able to make it back to the lodge where they were stay. Apparently they missed the turn to the lodge and darkness overtook them.

The question is this: Given these circumstances...was there anything they could have done to make it through the night alive?

[Cement Blonde]

No one thought to look for them?

[Sarge47]

Yes, the Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared," they were not! Only one flashlight that obviously hadn't been checked before hand, no rain gear...in this time of year? They also turned down a ride that would have saved their life. The BSA motto is applied to even the military, and Scouts, especially, should practice it! :thumbs_up:

[Geek]

Very unfortunate story, but they obviously didn't check the weather, didn't prepare for any sort of mishap, managed to get lost, etc. Any one of these decisions coulld have been made differently and they could have survived. They paid a very high price for not thinking.

[hunter63]

First, Welcome to the forum.....


A few days ago a Scout leader father and his two young sons (8 and 10) died from exposure in eastern Missouri, my home state, having gotten lost on a day hike. Complete details may be found with a google search "Father, 2 sons die while hiking in SE Missouri"

It was a great day (in the 60's) but during the hike the temperature fell into the 20's and a heavy rain began to fall. They were dressed lightly, with the father wearing a jacket...the kids wore a fleece and a sweater. Apparently they had no rain gear. They also had a cellphone (obviously no reception) and a flashlight, both of which were no longer functioning when the three were found the next morning. I don't know if they had any matches or lighters. There were no bluff shelters in the area.

Earlier, they had been offered a ride but turned it down, believing they would soon be able to make it back to the lodge where they were stay. Apparently they missed the turn to the lodge and darkness overtook them.

The question is this: Given these circumstances...was there anything they could have done to make it through the night alive?

What would be you thoughts on this......?
Obviously they were not prepared, or experienced.........so with out anymore information, the out come would take many different directions.

[LINDEN KNIGHT]

I don't know....once hypothermia takes hold...things start to go down hill fast. Maybe they could have covered themselves with leaves....or jumped around, kept active. I think their fate was probably sealed when they turned down the ride, but who knows...an ounce of luck beats a ton of skills. I would hope that I would recognize the seriousness of my situation before reaching the point of no return.

[Wildthang]

A few days ago a Scout leader father and his two young sons (8 and 10) died from exposure in eastern Missouri, my home state, having gotten lost on a day hike. Complete details may be found with a google search "Father, 2 sons die while hiking in SE Missouri"

It was a great day (in the 60's) but during the hike the temperature fell into the 20's and a heavy rain began to fall. They were dressed lightly, with the father wearing a jacket...the kids wore a fleece and a sweater. Apparently they had no rain gear. They also had a cellphone (obviously no reception) and a flashlight, both of which were no longer functioning when the three were found the next morning. I don't know if they had any matches or lighters. There were no bluff shelters in the area.

Earlier, they had been offered a ride but turned it down, believing they would soon be able to make it back to the lodge where they were stay. Apparently they missed the turn to the lodge and darkness overtook them.

The question is this: Given these circumstances...was there anything they could have done to make it through the night alive?

This is a sad story, and a terrible thing to happen to a father and his sons, but my thoughts are that apparently they learned very little from being in the boy Scouts. And you would think that they would have had the knowledge to build or find a shelter to at least get out of the rain!
It is sad to think that they died, when even a couple of large trash bags and a Bic lighter could have probably saved their lives. I am guessing they panicked which kept them from coming up with a plan, and it wet down hill quickly at that point, that is usually what happens!
What could they have done, built a temporary shelter and huddled together out of the rain. It may have been possible to have found some dry tinder and hand drilled a fire, but not knowing the terrain and the situation, that could have been impossible.
I wonder if they even had a knife?

[Echo2]

Proper
Planning and
Preparing
Prevents
Poor
Performance

Tragic.....always let someone know when to worry and where to look.....always.

[Seniorman]

It's always easy to point out the mistakes made in a situation such as this, but from what I've read, news reports, etc., the man did not have any equipment with him other than a dead cell phone and a dead flashlight. As others here have related so many of the man's mistakes, I'll not reiterate, other than this one which would have saved them immediately.


"Earlier, they had been offered a ride but turned it down, believing they would soon be able to make it back to the lodge where they were stay."

I will say that I've been out in the boonies when the weather was pleasant to start, then suddenly a cold weather front moved in quickly. I've seen the temperature drop from 60° F to 30° F in one hour. When that weather front moved in on the man and his sons, the temperature dropping rapidly, and then some rain began to fall, I wonder why the man did not immediately say to his sons, "Okay boys, time to go home."

Of course, we'll never know.

Truly an unfortunate and sad outcome.

S.M.

[hunter63]

MF when working for the DNR, was bringing extra deer tags from another station, one evening, I went along for the ride.

Taking back roads, came across a lost hunter,....walking down a road, so we stopped and asked if he wanted a ride.......
He turned us down, and said he knew where he was going........., didn't have a case with him so couldn't bring his gun....

MF just got out handed him a coat to tuck the shot gun in... and said, "Get in, where your car?....I'm not that nice of a guy...I have to get up early tomorrow, and I don't want to go looking for you......" The guy got in...

Turned out that his car was about 6 miles away........but his pride of "never, ever had gotten lost before" was strong.

Sad story.....but pride IS strong.....

[wildgarlic]

MF when working for the DNR, was bringing extra deer tags from another station, one evening, I went along for the ride.

Taking back roads, came across a lost hunter,....walking down a road, so we stopped and asked if he wanted a ride.......
He turned us down, and said he knew where he was going........., didn't have a case with him so couldn't bring his gun....

MF just got out handed him a coat to tuck the shot gun in... and said, "Get in, where your car?....I'm not that nice of a guy...I have to get up early tomorrow, and I don't want to go looking for you......" The guy got in...

Turned out that his car was about 6 miles away........but his pride of "never, ever had gotten lost before" was strong.

Sad story.....but pride IS strong.....

I had a very very mild case of hypothermia about 20 yrs ago. Not pleasant at all, I could not imagine a more severe one.

[Delta 5168]

Anybody else think that they could have whipped together a debri shelter and huddled together inside for shared warmth?. If time allowed, use those batteries and wires within the flashlights to get a spark for a fire? Food and water were not a consideration yet. Unfortunately a classic example of always prepare for the worst when headed toward the woods. Ma Nature is a B****!

[Sarge47]

Given the background on the father:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Father%2C+2+sons+die+while+hiking+in+SE+M issouri&rlz=1C1AVSC_enUS436US436&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

He was an Air Force Vet who's job had been highly classified, that speaks more in-depth training, perhaps, than the average Airman. Even an experienced Backpacker doesn't go on a light hike without at least a "10 Essentials Kit." A few extra items in a small day pack might have saved their lives. Dad lived in Illinois where winter weather is known to change from good to bad to worse at a moment's notice as well as being a Scoutmaster, so what's up with that? My son and I took a small hike in some woods close by; no way we could have gotten lost. But I still slid a small SK into the cargo pocket of my pants and belted on a fixed blade knife to keep my SAK company. Never needed them but you never know. I feel sorry for everybody concerned here, at least their dog survived. Poor kids though.:sad:

[crashdive123]

In depth training in the military does not equate to survival training. I trained on some of the most advanced electronic navigation systems known to man (at the time) that did nothing to aid in survival........well.......other than getting home.

[hunter63]

Hindsight being 20/20, the woulda, coulda, shoulda's could go on forever.
It is a sad lession to be taken to heart...be prepared.....We don't want to read about you.

Thoughts and prayers go out to their families..........

[Seniorman]

SARGE 47 - "He was an Air Force Vet who's job had been highly classified, that speaks more in-depth training, perhaps, than the average Airman."

Unless he were a pilot or on an air crew, or perhaps one of the AF's Special Operations teams, he'd have not attended the USAF's Outdoor Survival School at Fairchild AF Base outside of Spokane, Wash.

I had the opportunity several years ago to attend a three day "rendezvous" in the Idaho Rocky Mountains at which were two USAF Survival instructors from Fairchild. They were on leave, giving lessons on outdoor survival to those of us who attended. They told us that very few airmen who came through the school had any outdoor experience. But they certainly knew more when the left.

I would have to believe that if the man who lost his life had attended Fairchild's survival school, he'd have been better prepared.

Just my opinion.

S.M.

[Jimmyq]

A decent knife, a few emergency ponchos and a ferro rod would have made a huge difference to their survival I am thinking.

[BENESSE]

The most relevant part of his background: Scoutmaster! I don't get it.
Did he go off the deep end, maybe?
Can't glean from the press what the terrain was where they were found as far as what kind of shelter they could have built.

It is so tragic and was so avoidable.

[WolfVanZandt]

If it was within the last week, I live in Alabama and I knew their weather has been wonky (I have a friend in southern Missouri and I've been tracking the weather there). As to the terrain, much of southern Missouri is in the Ozarks. If you go far enough east it evens out some.

There's a mistaken notion that, as you go south, you don't have to worry as much about the cold. I warn people coming to the SEHowl that March is unpredictable in Alabama and they need to come prepared for both hot and cold weather and I still get people from the northern states that say, "Heck, I'm from the north country. You people don't know what cold is." Then they get down here and they're freezing.

[jfeatherjohn]

We have quite a few people die from hypothrrmia around here every year. One of the most dangerous times is the monsoon (July/August) because you get soaked, temps drop into the 50's, and you are a statistic.
Alot of room in my buttpack is taken up by a heavy-duty poncho, and I have used it more than once.
It is incredible the stories that we have to read out here. Apparently, these folks were not in familiar territory, and so often, that is what happened here.
I remember being smirked out for putting my buttpack on for the little hike up to glacier lake at Glacier Natl park. I did my homework; it is not grossly unusual for snow to fall there in August.
Its just very sad, but it will happen again.

[Seniorman]

I grew up in a tiny rural town in north central Arkansas, in the southern Ozark Mountains. We lived about ten miles south of the Missouri/Arkansas state line. I spent my youth bustin' around out in the Ozark hills and woods. They were dense and everything looked alike. It was not hard to get turned around if you were not familiar with the hills, the ridges and "hollers," old trails and lay of the land. The weather at this time of the year could change in a heartbeat.

I imagine that the man and children who died were generally in the same type of terrain in which I camped, hiked, hunted, explored, etc. I can understand how they got "turned around." I can't understand why the man led them into the woods without the proper clothing and rain gear.

When I was in the Boy Scouts many years ago, our Scoutmaster had been a paratrooper with the 101st Abn. Div., the famous "Screaming Eagles." He'd jumped at Normandy, in Holland, and fought at the Battle of the Bulge. He told us that at "the Bulge," they were rushed in without any proper winter clothing. He said he'd never been so cold in all his life.

I remember how he always admonished us Scouts, "Never trust the weather, no matter where you are. Be prepared." I never forgot that, and it has come in very handy for me several times in several locations.

Of course, being kinda paranoic, I always have plenty of "stuff" with me. :laugh:

S.M.

[1776]

Working south of Jackson Wyoming as a guide I got turned around badly once when weather came in and took away my ability to see my navigational landmarks. Luckily just before darkness fell I came across a trail junction I was familiar with. That saved me and two hunters from an impromptu spike camp. We were well clothed and all had Lighters I had an axe and game saw so we'd probably been ok. But I can certainly understand how the father and sons got misoriented. It is a tradegy. As others have posted always be prepared. Nature is a vast engine of energy constantly being stored and released it is never something to be approached casually.

[Cement Blonde]

soaking wet and no fire? sounds like a bad combo. somebody should always check the weather, i guess he forgot.

[Sourdough]

I think this is very telling........of what the results will be when thundering herds of humans stampede into the wilderness after a SHTF event, even if prepared for a short two months.

[Sarge47]

The most relevant part of his background: Scoutmaster! I don't get it.
Did he go off the deep end, maybe?
Can't glean from the press what the terrain was where they were found as far as what kind of shelter they could have built.

It is so tragic and was so avoidable.You are 100% right on the money Ms. "B!" The operational word here is "Scoutmaster!" Even if he never received any type of survival training in the AF he should have known the Boy Scout Motto of "Be Prepared!" His sons were too young to be Boy Scouts,(8 & 10) maybe they were Cubs, whatever, you never go afield without some sort of emergency gear, and more than just a busted flashlight! My wife carries more survival gear in her purse than what this fellow carried! :detective:

[hunter63]

Just because some one has a title doen't mean they are any good at anything except what is in the test book........If there is a Scout Masters test?

Some of our Scout masters were anyone that wanted and had time for the job....or were drafted by the boss of the place of work/church (sponser) that had hired them.

[tsitenha]

wet...cold...no shelter making device.... bad combination. Given the circumstances with the lack of forethought ,I am not sure that they would make a even a shelter, easy now to say take the ride. We see this often not always ending with such tragedy, RIP

[Wildthang]

Darn shame, a lighter, a knife, and 2 large trash bags would have saved their lives, and it would have all fit in their pockets or a very small fanny pack!

[DSJohnson]

just a couple of observations.
1. Not one of the four reports that I read actually said anything about him being a "Scoutmaster" and even if he was he might have signed up two weeks ago at the last cubscout meeting. After all we have all seen information on the net, tv, radio, and in papers that later turned out to be less than accurate.
2. Today's Scoutmaster training program is much much different and has a completely different emphasis than it did just 13 years ago. Wilderness Survival is not a major part of being a "trained" Scoutmaster these days.
Do not misunderstand me I absolutely do not understand this senseless loss of life. I can not begin to understand why anyone would turn down help in a deteriorating situation. I don't understand someone driving away from that man and not being alarmed, to the point of calling the local Sheriffs office and reporting it. I just don't understand. However it is not the first time that stupidity and ignorance killed people.

[welderguy]

There is a huge list of, should of could of's but bottom line is three wasted lives because of, Pride, lack of planning and preparedness . In the end maybe someone will remember this and take steps to not be on the front page news .

[LINDEN KNIGHT]

Yeah, the site Fox2news site I visited stated that the father was a den leader and the sons were cub scouts. There was also a picture of the 3 in uniforms.


just a couple of observations.
1. Not one of the four reports that I read actually said anything about him being a "Scoutmaster" and even if he was he might have signed up two weeks ago at the last cubscout meeting. After all we have all seen information on the net, tv, radio, and in papers that later turned out to be less than accurate.
2. Today's Scoutmaster training program is much much different and has a completely different emphasis than it did just 13 years ago. Wilderness Survival is not a major part of being a "trained" Scoutmaster these days.
Do not misunderstand me I absolutely do not understand this senseless loss of life. I can not begin to understand why anyone would turn down help in a deteriorating situation. I don't understand someone driving away from that man and not being alarmed, to the point of calling the local Sheriffs office and reporting it. I just don't understand. However it is not the first time that stupidity and ignorance killed people.