Land in the middle of nowhere

[Yves]

I know, I know. I've read the posts with warnings that this will be hard. I'm well aware. However, I still have my fair share of questions. For example, take the below example.

http://her.is/VSBvj

It's a little north-west of Gnome Alaska (you'll need to zoom out a bit to get a better sense as to where this is). Cold and uninhabited. How much would 100 acres cost me there?

[crashdive123]

Just a quick bit of Googlefu revealed $250,000 to $1,000,000.

[Yves]

Just a quick bit of Googlefu revealed $250,000 to $1,000,000.

In the middle of nowhere? There isn't even a road into it. No offense, but could you please provide a link, I'm doubtful of this claim.

[Sarge47]

That's the thing, how are you going to get back and forth to your property? How will you get supplies? Bush pilots are expensive, ask Sourdough, he's bee one as well as a realator over there. :nod:

[Yves]

That's the thing, how are you going to get back and forth to your property? How will you get supplies? Bush pilots are expensive, ask Sourdough, he's bee one as well as a realator over there. :nod:

This is largely a hypothetical question :) . I know that what I'm asking is not going to be easy, but I still want to know.

[1stimestar]

Most of our state lives off the road system. But if you are considering moving near Nome, perhaps you should learn how to spell it.

[Sarge47]

This is largely a hypothetical question :) . I know that what I'm asking is not going to be easy, but I still want to know.

And that's the point of my previous post. Every thing in Alaska is 3 to 4 times higher than what we're used to in the lower 48! I was watching the program on Nat. Geo., about the State Police in Alaska and there was a shot inside a grocery store; milk was almost 10 dollars a gallon, and that was several years ago! There's very little resources that come directly from Alaska, most of it has to be shipped in from outside the state, hence the high price tag. It's not just the land you need to think about, but the whole picture. Sourdough has posted land prices on here in the past and that's probably where Crash got his figures. It's going to depend on what you want. Land with water will be a premium, and cost a lot more than the arrid, dry land. :nod:

[1stimestar]

It's doable with enough $. Barge your building supplies up the Snake River. Cache them on shore nearest your property and wait for winter. Once winter sets in, start hauling supplies to your building site via snow machine and sled. The next summer, start building. So what did you have in mind to use as a heat source? You know there are no trees in that area right?

[Psalm25]

It's doable with enough $. Barge your building supplies up the Snake River. Cache them on shore nearest your property and wait for winter. Once winter sets in, start hauling supplies to your building site via snow machine and sled. The next summer, start building. So what did you have in mind to use as a heat source? You know there are no trees in that area right?

Living in the middle of nowhere with no hydro and no tree's for heat... to get enough gas to run a generator for any length of time is hard to imagine... I'm excited to see if there is a possible answer to your question 1stimestar!

[1stimestar]

People do do it. I have good friends that do. They haul stuff up the Yukon River on their boat in the summer, and haul stuff over the river in the winter on the ice. But they had a pretty large initial expenditure, do expeditions by dog sled for the Sierra Club, scientists, and tourists in the winter. Not a lot of money but an awesome way of life. You can check out their place on my blog as I go visit them every year. Oh but this is the Interior and we have trees.

[Sourdough]

I know that what I'm asking is not going to be easy, but I still want to know.

Well, Then you should hire a Professional Real Estate Consultant/Appraiser to write a report. I can do this work if you would like.

[kyratshooter]

I get nothing on the link but a blank page with a blue dot that says Nome.

It seems that everyone thinks all of Alaska is alike and you just walk in and trees fall into a cabin shaped pile and moose jump into your oven.

[Psalm25]

I get nothing on the link but a blank page with a blue dot that says Nome.

It seems that everyone thinks all of Alaska is alike and you just walk in and trees fall into a cabin shaped pile and moose jump into your oven.

:lol: I had a mental picture of what you described hahaha!

[1stimestar]

Use the slide bar to span farther out.

[Psalm25]

People do do it. I have good friends that do. They haul stuff up the Yukon River on their boat in the summer, and haul stuff over the river in the winter on the ice. But they had a pretty large initial expenditure, do expeditions by dog sled for the Sierra Club, scientists, and tourists in the winter. Not a lot of money but an awesome way of life. You can check out their place on my blog as I go visit them every year. Oh but this is the Interior and we have trees.

Wow! I love your pictures!! Aurora borealis always amazes me. Such beautiful land.

[Power Giant]

Look into central Montana. It's alot more realistic and do-able than AK. Did you know that the further north you go the less game there is?

[1stimestar]

Wow! I love your pictures!! Aurora borealis always amazes me. Such beautiful land.

Thanks. My best friend just loaned me her Nikon D200 so now I have to learn to use that. Of course, it takes fantastic pictures. I just have to learn how to use the settings.

[Psalm25]

Thanks. My best friend just loaned me her Nikon D200 so now I have to learn to use that. Of course, it takes fantastic pictures. I just have to learn how to use the settings.

I googled some pics around Nome... I see what you mean about there being no tree's! Beautiful place to do some hunting/backpacking but I wouldn't want to live there. I would go nuts after a while not seeing any tree's, myself personally.

Be sure to take lots more pics while you have the camera. Hope you share the pics with us, I look forward to seeing them!

[oly]

Interesting history

[Yves]

That's the thing, how are you going to get back and forth to your property? How will you get supplies? Bush pilots are expensive, ask Sourdough, he's bee one as well as a realator over there. :nod:

I'll teleport it there :D .

[Yves]

Most of our state lives off the road system. But if you are considering moving near Nome, perhaps you should learn how to spell it.

Would be a good start :) .

[Yves]

And that's the point of my previous post. Every thing in Alaska is 3 to 4 times higher than what we're used to in the lower 48! I was watching the program on Nat. Geo., about the State Police in Alaska and there was a shot inside a grocery store; milk was almost 10 dollars a gallon, and that was several years ago! There's very little resources that come directly from Alaska, most of it has to be shipped in from outside the state, hence the high price tag. It's not just the land you need to think about, but the whole picture. Sourdough has posted land prices on here in the past and that's probably where Crash got his figures. It's going to depend on what you want. Land with water will be a premium, and cost a lot more than the arrid, dry land. :nod:

Oh, I don't expect it to be easy or cheap. And I realize that I'll have to do tons of work just to get a simple hut going. This is something that I'd do after a few business ventures of mine take off. Doing it now, when I'm doing 9-5 would be moronic :) .

[Yves]

Well, Then you should hire a Professional Real Estate Consultant/Appraiser to write a report. I can do this work if you would like.

Thanks for letting me know, I'll shoot you a private message.

[Psalm25]

Yves, mind if I ask why you chose that area? I'm not saying its a bad idea, more power to you if that's what you want to do... just curious why you would pick such a harsh spot? I can understand the seclusion aspect... but there must me plenty of secluded places in Alaska with tree's, why not elsewhere? Feel free to tell me m.y.o.b, I'm just curious.

[Yves]

Yves, mind if I ask why you chose that area? I'm not saying its a bad idea, more power to you if that's what you want to do... just curious why you would pick such a harsh spot? I can understand the seclusion aspect... but there must me plenty of secluded places in Alaska with tree's, why not elsewhere? Feel free to tell me m.y.o.b, I'm just curious.

That's a perfectly reasonable question. It's many-fold.
1 - I like space. Right now I'm sitting in a 6'x6' cubicle and while I got used to it, I don't like it.
2 - I like to build things from scratch. Recently I've been getting interested in stone carving. I would love to build a house that's exactly what I want without anyone coming over and saying either I can't build it or asking to look around or start taking pictures. Basically, if it's something like Nome Alaska, no one will bother going there :) .

Also, while it is arid and cold, I have seen trees grow up there. I'd like to grow some of them myself. Obviously, I'd need to put in a lot of effort in order to make the conditions right.
3 - Although Nome doesn't meet this criteria, I'd like a place where I don't have to be bothered in terms of have to pay property taxes.
4 - I have lived in cities and visited the country. Comfortable city life makes you, in a lot of ways, soft. You lose touch with many things that makes you human. I don't like this.

There are others, but that's what I came up with in about 5 minutes.

[1stimestar]

Trees do grow up here if you mean the whole of Alaska. Trees do not grow in the area around Nome. There is brush that you may be calling trees. It's tundra. Unless you are getting your information from the movie The 4th Kind, which was NOT filmed in Nome. Here's a short video of what Nome and the surrounding area looks like. http://youtu.be/NEZG7FoBHk0

There are lots of places here that have no property taxes. Of course, you have no services either. We had a discussion recently about why there is not a lot of stone building done here, and no brick houses. The amount of earth quakes we have make building from stone pretty unpopular. It's 9:30 in the morning right now and we've had 9 earthquakes so far since midnight. Here is a list of recent earthquakes and where they were. http://youtu.be/NEZG7FoBHk0

[Yves]

Trees do grow up here if you mean the whole of Alaska. Trees do not grow in the area around Nome. There is brush that you may be calling trees. It's tundra. Unless you are getting your information from the movie The 4th Kind, which was NOT filmed in Nome. Here's a short video of what Nome and the surrounding area looks like. http://youtu.be/NEZG7FoBHk0
I can't view the video at the moment, I'm at work. But I've been working on the assumption -- feel free to correct me if I'm wrong -- that if you have the earth for the tree as well as some protection from the harsh wind in the winter (like a short wall around it), the tree should grow fine.

There are lots of places here that have no property taxes.
Really? I didn't know. If there are other places in this country that meet this criteria, please let me know :) .

Of course, you have no services either.
I figured as much.

We had a discussion recently about why there is not a lot of stone building done here, and no brick houses. The amount of earth quakes we have make building from stone pretty unpopular. It's 9:30 in the morning right now and we've had 9 earthquakes so far since midnight. Here is a list of recent earthquakes and where they were. http://youtu.be/NEZG7FoBHk0
I know. I'd like to introduce Alaskans to the stone construction methods of the Inca. They too built massive stone structures (temples, government buildings, fortresses, etc.) in a very earthquake-prone region of the world. For hundreds of years, these buildings lasted. They even outlasted the structures built by the conquering Spaniards!

[edit]

His name is Vince Lee, this is his site [ http://www.sixpacmanco.com/ ]. He's the one that re-discovered how the Inca built their buildings. To this day, those structures stand.

I bought 3-4 books/manuals from him and I will personally vouch for the quality of the material contained inside.

[Yves]

Living in the middle of nowhere with no hydro and no tree's for heat... to get enough gas to run a generator for any length of time is hard to imagine... I'm excited to see if there is a possible answer to your question 1stimestar!

It's flat with no trees, wind would be my first choice. You could do pumped storage even if you have a tiny little stream or with a well.

[Psalm25]

That's a perfectly reasonable question. It's many-fold.
1 - I like space. Right now I'm sitting in a 6'x6' cubicle and while I got used to it, I don't like it.
2 - I like to build things from scratch. Recently I've been getting interested in stone carving. I would love to build a house that's exactly what I want without anyone coming over and saying either I can't build it or asking to look around or start taking pictures. Basically, if it's something like Nome Alaska, no one will bother going there :) .

Also, while it is arid and cold, I have seen trees grow up there. I'd like to grow some of them myself. Obviously, I'd need to put in a lot of effort in order to make the conditions right.
3 - Although Nome doesn't meet this criteria, I'd like a place where I don't have to be bothered in terms of have to pay property taxes.
4 - I have lived in cities and visited the country. Comfortable city life makes you, in a lot of ways, soft. You lose touch with many things that makes you human. I don't like this.

There are others, but that's what I came up with in about 5 minutes.

Well, more power to you Yves! I can totally understand why you would want to get out of the city and live in solitude. Do all your research before you go, maybe go up for a month to test the water so to speak before you jump in. Make sure to figure out your plan for the bugs... if it is anything like it is up in Northern Canada they will drive you to madness within minutes if your not ready for them. Many ways to deal with them, just depends on what types of biting little buggers are in Alaska.

[1stimestar]

Oh I'm sure you could grow your own trees for special fruits or in a garden or something. But I was talking about trees for heating with wood. What are you going to heat with?

[Psalm25]

I think he mentioned a wind generator. Good idea if it doesn't freeze up with the cold. Would have to be quite large I imagine

[1stimestar]

Oh thanks. I must have missed it. Yes wind generation certainly works in that area. Though I don't know how good batteries are for creating enough heat to heat a house. Nome is a very mild climate considering it's in Alaska but the wind does blow.

[intothenew]

I question stone.

First, is there quality architectural stone in the area?

Second, assuming there is quality stone available what size do you need for this project and just how/how far/how much do you move?

Third, the "R" value of stone is roughly one per foot of thickness. Temperate climate peoples didn't concern themselves with that too much. That Northern of a latitude should require some cipherin'?

I'll start with those. That leads into many more if you can come to terms.

[Yves]

Oh I'm sure you could grow your own trees for special fruits or in a garden or something. But I was talking about trees for heating with wood. What are you going to heat with?

Actually, for heat, I've been thinking of living partially underground, where the temperature can be more constant. If the ground freezes through 6+ feet, I'm screwed :) . At that point I would consider some form of solar heating as well as wind-power in order to heat up parts of my home.

[edit]

There's also geo-heating where you pump water underground to warm up before you push it through your home. Granted, this will require A LOT of digging and A LOT of copper piping, but it can be done.

[Yves]

I question stone.

First, is there quality architectural stone in the area?
Most granite will work very well.

Second, assuming there is quality stone available what size do you need for this project and just how/how far/how much do you move?
Not sure. I'd probably relocate closer to the stone. Good question though, a point to consider more carefully.

Third, the "R" value of stone is roughly one per foot of thickness. Temperate climate peoples didn't concern themselves with that too much. That Northern of a latitude should require some cipherin'?
Not following you. What's cipherin'? Are you talking about insulation? If so, then positioning your house in direct sunlight would be key. The reason why is so that the house can absorb light in the day and radiate it out in the night (another heating solution :) ).

[Yves]

Well, more power to you Yves! I can totally understand why you would want to get out of the city and live in solitude. Do all your research before you go, maybe go up for a month to test the water so to speak before you jump in. Make sure to figure out your plan for the bugs... if it is anything like it is up in Northern Canada they will drive you to madness within minutes if your not ready for them. Many ways to deal with them, just depends on what types of biting little buggers are in Alaska.

Nome is pretty swamp free. Mostly tundra, so I don't expect many bugs, but I could also be terribly wrong :) .

As for money, I've been thinking, why raise chickens? Sell those bastards and their eggs. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Psalm25]

This is getting interesting...
I found this for you as a possible heat source. Get quite cold in Newfoundland so if you rig a few of these up it should work. It does not look hard at all to make yourself.

http://hacknmod.com/hack/how-to-go-green-this-winter-with-diy-free-heating/

[Yves]

This is getting interesting...
I found this for you as a possible heat source. Get quite cold in Newfoundland so if you rig a few of these up it should work. It does not look hard at all to make yourself.

http://hacknmod.com/hack/how-to-go-green-this-winter-with-diy-free-heating/

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

[1stimestar]

Actually, for heat, I've been thinking of living partially underground, where the temperature can be more constant. If the ground freezes through 6+ feet, I'm screwed :) . At that point I would consider some form of solar heating as well as wind-power in order to heat up parts of my home.

[edit]

There's also geo-heating where you pump water underground to warm up before you push it through your home. Granted, this will require A LOT of digging and A LOT of copper piping, but it can be done.

Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbi Downer but Nome has permafrost, one of the reasons for no trees. Solar? Keep in mind they are still a pretty northern latitude and only has 4-5 hours of sunlight in the winter, that's when the sky is uncovered. Since it's on the ocean, there are not many sunny days at all. Lots of overcast. And mosquitoes live in tundra.

[Psalm25]

Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbi Downer but Nome has permafrost, one of the reasons for no trees. Solar? Keep in mind they are still a pretty northern latitude and only has 4-5 hours of sunlight in the winter, that's when the sky is uncovered. Since it's on the ocean, there are not many sunny days at all. Lots of overcast. And mosquitoes live in tundra.

Wow... no tree's... no roads... permafrost... hardly any sun... sometimes no sun... mosquitoes... best of luck Yves.

[intothenew]

Most granite will work very well.

Not sure. I'd probably relocate closer to the stone. Good question though, a point to consider more carefully.

Not following you. What's cipherin'? Are you talking about insulation? If so, then positioning your house in direct sunlight would be key. The reason why is so that the house can absorb light in the day and radiate it out in the night (another heating solution :) ).


Cipherin', whether coined or not, was made famous by Jethro Bodine. I use it as slang defining mathematical complexity, it' just below figurin'.

To loosely quote Jed;


"If brains was lard, Jethro couldn't grease a pan."

R is a measure of insulation. The higher the number, the more insulation value. One foot of stone is roughly equivalent to 3/4 inch of plywood.

Collecting the energy of the sun using thermal mass is a valid theory, but you may be overlooking the size/thickness blanket that you need to hold it. Even at five hours of sunshine, at that latitude the energy is incredibly reduced by the angle of incidence and it's worse when you need it most.

[Yves]

Sorry, don't mean to be a Debbi Downer but Nome has permafrost, one of the reasons for no trees. Solar? Keep in mind they are still a pretty northern latitude and only has 4-5 hours of sunlight in the winter, that's when the sky is uncovered. Since it's on the ocean, there are not many sunny days at all. Lots of overcast. And mosquitoes live in tundra.

Ok, what parts of AK doesn't have permafrost :) ?

[1stimestar]

LOL I don't know. Google is your friend.

[Yves]

Honestly, if it's an abandoned town that's a ways off, that might also work. At least the roads are already there and I can use some of the buildings for fuel :) .

[Sarge47]

Honestly, if it's an abandoned town that's a ways off, that might also work. At least the roads are already there and I can use some of the buildings for fuel :) .Wouldn't somebody else already own them? Good luck with all of that! :dissolve:

[Stiffy]

Most of our state lives off the road system. But if you are considering moving near Nome, perhaps you should learn how to spell it.

Personally, I like the name "Gnome." It has a kind of fantasy feel to it.

[Psalm25]

Honestly, if it's an abandoned town that's a ways off, that might also work. At least the roads are already there and I can use some of the buildings for fuel :) .

Your all over the place here Yves... first you want to be self sufficient and live in the middle of nowhere way off the grid with no possible road access... now your looking to live in an abandoned town that has fuel left and that "at least has road access"... why don't you just stay where you are? there is lots of fuel and road access right now I'm sure:yes:

[1stimestar]

You can't drive to Nome dude. There is NO road.

[Psalm25]

You can't drive to Nome dude. There is NO road.

Nome is Nome-more in question lol. He has moved onto seeking an abandoned town in Alaska with road access and salvageable leftover fuel now.

[1stimestar]

Nome is Nome-more in question lol. He has moved onto seeking an abandoned town in Alaska with road access and salvageable leftover fuel now.

All that AANND without getting shot? Doesn't exist.

[Psalm25]

No harm in daydreaming :laugh:

[Yves]

Your all over the place here Yves... first you want to be self sufficient and live in the middle of nowhere way off the grid with no possible road access... now your looking to live in an abandoned town that has fuel left and that "at least has road access"... why don't you just stay where you are? there is lots of fuel and road access right now I'm sure:yes:

:) Heh. That one is day-dreaming.

My biggest concern is that should something go wrong with either the economy or the food supply, hungry people are something to look out for. In Ukraine's Holodomor artificial famine, people resorted to cannibalism, I shudder to think what would happen if you get enough people who have guns.

If the location is very remote and difficult to get to and I don't advertise it to the world (like on a public forum :D ), I'll be fine.

[Psalm25]

:) Heh. That one is day-dreaming.

My biggest concern is that should something go wrong with either the economy or the food supply, hungry people are something to look out for. In Ukraine's Holodomor artificial famine, people resorted to cannibalism, I shudder to think what would happen if you get enough people who have guns.

If the location is very remote and difficult to get to and I don't advertise it to the world (like on a public forum :D ), I'll be fine.

I agree 100% that sticking around anywhere that is populated to any degree while having a food supply is not too bright. I also agree giving away the remote location to anyone who will not be in the traveling party is not too bright ether. Can't argue with you on any of that.

[Seniorman]

Yves, here is a link to a long read about a young man who moved to Alaska to "get away from it all" and live the remote life, etc. He also lists the necessary supplies he needed to live for a trapping season. He also had help and advice from a man who'd lived there for a long time and knew the ropes.

Nevertheless, it was extremely hard for him to survive... and he did not even go there to build a stone house.

This might give you an idea of what you'll face, just in the logistics of surviving out in the far north boonies. "Lessons Learned From An Alaskan Trapper."

http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/09/letter_re_grub_and_gearlessons.html

Good luck.

S.M.

[Yves]

Yves, here is a link to a long read about a young man who moved to Alaska to "get away from it all" and live the remote life, etc. He also lists the necessary supplies he needed to live for a trapping season. He also had help and advice from a man who'd lived there for a long time and knew the ropes.

Nevertheless, it was extremely hard for him to survive... and he did not even go there to build a stone house.

This might give you an idea of what you'll face, just in the logistics of surviving out in the far north boonies. "Lessons Learned From An Alaskan Trapper."

http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/09/letter_re_grub_and_gearlessons.html

Good luck.

S.M.

Thanks, will digest when I have a moment.

[hunter63]

One thing to keep in mind.....being cut off for any length of time, can be extremely hard, you would be surprised to find what what you run out of....and miss.
We live in a call for pizza 24/7 stores with anything open, and now nothing.

The was a guy that stopped in here a while back, actually joined to sell his far north Canadian home stead.....complete.

Pretty interesting guy, and hung out while until he figured none here had a million buck to spend....but did mention that he/they, flew out several hundred miles just for ice cream....if that give you an idea....

Something to consider.
Personally did a couple of dry run "bug outs" to a BOL, already stocked....just to see effective how our planning was......two weeks and little stuff started to show up...water filters, TP, candy....'stuff"

[finallyME]

Your goal is lofty. You might want to look at other places in the US, or even Canada, places without permafrost. Montana was a good suggestion.

[Yves]

One thing to keep in mind.....being cut off for any length of time, can be extremely hard, you would be surprised to find what what you run out of....and miss.
We live in a call for pizza 24/7 stores with anything open, and now nothing.
Either my wife or before I got married, I prepared 99% of the food myself :) . Ate far less sugar in the first place. Sure, I'll miss some things, but that means that when I go back to 'civilization', I'll enjoy it that much more. The one that that I would want that would be considered a luxury is a laptop with Linux installed on it and a bunch of my books on that hard-drive (and a power source).

The was a guy that stopped in here a while back, actually joined to sell his far north Canadian home stead.....complete.

Pretty interesting guy, and hung out while until he figured none here had a million buck to spend....but did mention that he/they, flew out several hundred miles just for ice cream....if that give you an idea....

Something to consider.
Personally did a couple of dry run "bug outs" to a BOL, already stocked....just to see effective how our planning was......two weeks and little stuff started to show up...water filters, TP, candy....'stuff"

Haha, wow, a million bucks for a remote place? Really?

[Yves]

Your goal is lofty. You might want to look at other places in the US, or even Canada, places without permafrost. Montana was a good suggestion.

That's what I'm thinking too. Don't get me wrong, the problem is not the cold, it's the frozen dirt :) . Even if there are no trees in a location, I don't mind growing some pines, but when you're trying to grow all that on an ice-cube, forget it.

[edit]

Although, even Nome must have some bedrock (small mountains) sticking out here and there out of the ground.

[Yves]

Yves, here is a link to a long read about a young man who moved to Alaska to "get away from it all" and live the remote life, etc. He also lists the necessary supplies he needed to live for a trapping season. He also had help and advice from a man who'd lived there for a long time and knew the ropes.

Nevertheless, it was extremely hard for him to survive... and he did not even go there to build a stone house.

This might give you an idea of what you'll face, just in the logistics of surviving out in the far north boonies. "Lessons Learned From An Alaskan Trapper."

http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/09/letter_re_grub_and_gearlessons.html

Good luck.

S.M.

Thanks for sharing that with me. That was a good read and an even better blog.

Basically, I'd do most of my work during the warmer times of the year. The primary goal would be to live close enough to a river so that I can have a boat when it gets warm. The first plan would be to put together a structure that can withstand the cold, even if it's made out of wood. Then, to build something stone-solid, develop some form of agriculture (pine nuts, chickens and goats, baby!), hunt and fish.

[edit]

One thing that I haven't wrapped my mind 100% around is, what does this word mean: TEOTWAWKI

[Sarge47]

One thing that I haven't wrapped my mind 100% around is, what does this word mean: TEOTWAWKI

"The End Of The World As We Know It." :scared: