The Devil is in the Details

[intothenew]

But, an Engineer is driven to this self inflicted turmoil.

I've never been one to count calories, or fuss over IU/mg of vitamins. I eat a varied diet, and plenty of exercise comes from chores and recreation. I've maintained a reasonable weight through 5 decades. So, the initiative for the following was not sparked on my own accord but from observing the varmints over the past twelve months. I certainly will personally benefit from this academic exercise though.

One of this years most gratifying tasks was making up MRGs (Meals Ready to Go) with the varmints. I gave little instruction, so it seemed at first, for the assemblage. Simply put, I insisted on a protein, a carb, and a fruit/vegetable with each meal. Snacks certainly found their way in, just as marbles and rubber snakes in the pockets. Left to their own devises, they loaded up on the carbs. Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe it ain't. To try and get my head around what is/ain't, I have started some research. I ask for your input, over the next few months, as academia leads to the lab and to the field. I hope to emerge this spring with a brand new MRG plan.

First question;


Is a calorie calculator such as this, LINKY, (http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm) sufficient in variables? If not, where is the magic formula or how do we put the appropriate Kentucky windage on this one? Certainly the activity levels are subjective.


Second question;


RDI (LINKY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_Daily_Intake)) or DRI(LINKY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Reference_Intake)) and then some?


Third question;


Assuming a consensus is reached on the first two questions, is the RDI/DRI simply a ratio of recommended calories multiplied by all of the vitamins, minerals, etc divided by 2000?



I have many more questions in store, but will stop for the moment with those. I have some spreadsheets made up that I will be glad to share with those interested, when finalized.

Help? Heckle? I welcome both.

[Rick]

Man, you are asking the wrong guy. I'm into the two basic food groups, sweets and preservatives.

[intothenew]

Come on back in a few weeks. I figure high fructose corn syrup and potassium sorbate will be on the menu by then.

[Echo2]

The Calculators IMO are crap....due to the fact that everyone is an individual.

I personally feel that the more realistic way to go is portion control and slight substitution.

I'm trying to loose some weight myself....holidays have sucked....but I've been doing this since Sept...and have lost 25lbs

First part of substitution....was breakfast. I still have my cup of coffee.....but instead of either skipping breakfast or stopping and getting a biscuit (400+cals)...I have either a couple packs of instant oatmeal or a cereal bar. I try to do this within the first hour of waking. It puts something on my stomach, the body doesn't go in to famine mode, and I don't pig out at lunch because I'm "starving".

If I want a snack before lunch....I go with a piece of fruit or a small pk of crackers (4).

For lunch...I generally go out to eat. fast food isn't good for you but when you are running a business it is unavoidable for a "catch what you can" lunch. The trick is watching what you get. I don't get the big a$$ burger....the "monster" this or "super size" that. I generally will have a chicken sandwich or a burger....skip the fries (which is difficult to do) or just get a small...and a tea (generally 1/2 and 1/2...cause they make it way too sweet). When possible I'll stop and grab a salad. I generally have done less modification on my lunches than any other meal....I just control the portion size.

If I snack between lunch and dinner....I keep it small. Generally it is a piece of fruit or a handful of nuts.(I have to get a handful and put them away right then...cause I love mixed nuts)

Dinner is the kicker....cause my wife is a great cook. We have 2 boys (11 and 13) and my baby girl (7)....so we generally fix a large dinner. I have made it a rule for me to get a "normal" size portion of dinner. I try to consciously eat it slower than I normally eat. After I'm done eating that serving....I will drink a 32oz glass of water....and wait 5 mins. Then I ask myself if I am realistically "hungry"...or just eating cause it's good. Probably about 50% of the time....I'll stop there. If I go back for seconds...I can only have a portion 1/2 the size of my original portion.( i don't weigh it...just an honest eyeball).

I generally have had a smack in the evening...for a very long time....I have tried to stop this. If I get hungry...I once again drink a large glass of water....maybe a piece of fruit...but fruit will give me heartburn in the evenings on occasion.

The biggest thing....is you have to want to do it. Don't beat yourself up if you slip.....and you do have to reward yourself every so often.

I used to drink sodas very often.....but they are terrible for you. Tons and tons of empty calories. I do reward my self once to twice a week with a 8oz Coke....or a good dessert....just don't do it alot.

Weigh yourself....I weigh in the morning after evac. and before coffee. I don't write it down....but I do remember the original number.

Good luck....It's a PITA....but I have noticed my energy level going up....and that makes it worth while.

[intothenew]

Since we're getting personal, thanks for that Echo2:

I've never really had much of a problem with weight control, and still don't. The kids don't either. My concern runs a bit deeper than that, but all the while taking caloric intake into consideration.

I guess my ultimate question is;



How do I plan and package field stable food with the appropriate calories, and vitamins, and minerals and.............?



Almost every time I am afield for more than a week, I return with an incredible craving for a salad the size of a wheelbarrow and a can (the whole can) of peaches. Is my body telling me that I have been delinquent somewhere? I plan on some extended stays in the field with these kids this coming year, and just hope to be able to take something well balanced with us.

[jfeatherjohn]

This is just making me really hungry...

[intothenew]

For what? What are you craving right now?

[Echo2]

oops....Took it wrong.

Are you looking for things to take with you into the field or for LTS?....or both?

[intothenew]

Medium term storage to carry in the field. LTS, Martha, our resident pantler, has that one covered.


I say medium term, I would like to make them up for grab and go. A year or less on rotation.

[LowKey]

Well-balanced is the keyword.
All those Recommended Daily Requirements don't take into account a person's metabolism and activity level.
They are simply guides and I've had more than my fair share of arguments recently with a nutritionist on the subject.

You can try to use some of those online recipe calculators to estimate the nutritional value of the food you are making. At least they'll give you ballparks. I needed those to help prove to said nutritionist that the food-from-scratch I was making was just as good or even better than the pre-packaged manufactured crap she was recommending.

If you are going out in the field for long hikes and strenuous activity you may want to starch load a bit to keep your blood sugar levels steady, similar to a marathoner. I like things like oatmeal, granola, crackers, pasta. Add to those some dried fruits, nuts, vegetables. How you prepare and carry meat products is up to you. Dried milk works. If the kids will drink it. After any amount of time eating dried prepared foods, of course your body will crave fresh stuff. If, and only if, you are confident in your plant ID skills, you can think about fresh greens foraged during your travels. Just be very sure of what you are eating and the chances of it having been sprayed.

Kids are a whole other story though. I don't have em and never had to plan for em. Their energy levels are higher and they may need more than the recommended adult daily requirement of some things, less of others.

[intothenew]

Well-balanced is the keyword.
All those Recommended Daily Requirements don't take into account a person's metabolism and activity level.
They are simply guides and I've had more than my fair share of arguments recently with a nutritionist on the subject.

You can try to use some of those online recipe calculators to estimate the nutritional value of the food you are making. At least they'll give you ballparks.........................If you are going out in the field for long hikes and strenuous activity you may want to starch load a bit to keep your blood sugar levels steady, similar to a marathoner...................................



Ball park is good. Field tests are invaluable, as with most things.


So, given a 2600 calorie diet as an estimation would you aim for a 26/20 amount of Vitamin A, Iron, Folate, etc. etc.? By how much would you overshoot on the starch.....10%......25%.......?

To the contraire, if the caloric estimate is 1200 calories, are the goals of vitamins and minerals 12/20?

Few exceptions to the above? A lot of exceptions to the above?

[WolfVanZandt]

Intothenew, I think you'll have to take any of these calculators as recommendations to adapt as needed. You're dealing with chaos rich systems (bodies) and no formula is going to be able to tell you how to approach them. Use the calculator results as a starting point and plan to modify them in the field.

I used to order stuff from outfits like Paladin and, with some background in the sciences I quickly came to the understanding that, if you used any of the do-it-youself manuals, you'd better already know what your doing before you use any of the plans or recipes. For instance, some of the explosives were pretty much calculated to blow up in your face if you actually tried to mix them up.

That's why I approach things like food from the idea of, know the basic principles first so you can throw them together from scratch. The human mind is designed to work in chaotic systems. If you understand the principles, then you use the mechanics for a starting point, and you have cultivated the intuitions to be able to modify the machine as it runs, then you are equipped to deal with the situation. For the case of food, you need to know how to construct meals; you can use the calculators for initial states; then you keep your bodies in shape so that they can crave what they need when they need it; and you know what resources you have in the wild to modify your meals to satisfy your cravings.

[intothenew]

.................Are you looking for things to take with you into the field...............




Just to clarify that a little more, we've done it/do it. These pics are from my supper grab and go box. There typically 20-25 meals in there.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-s4trmw7/0/XL/i-s4trmw7-XL.jpg

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Q4GFD36/0/L/i-Q4GFD36-L.jpg

That's a homemade chili-mac and some accoutrements.

[intothenew]

Intothenew, I think you'll have to take any of these calculators as recommendations to adapt as needed. You're dealing with chaos rich systems (bodies) and no formula is going to be able to tell you how to approach...............



The Reference Daily Intake or Recommended Daily Intake (RDI) is the daily intake level of a nutrient that is considered to be sufficient to meet the requirements of 97–98% of healthy individuals in every demographic in the United States (where it was developed, but has since been used in other places). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_Daily_Intake)


97-98%, and I assume that is from people much more knowledgeable on the subject than I. Are you saying to simply trust your cravings?

[Echo2]

Gotcha....basically a chow box you can forget about until needed....other than rotation.

If you are in the "craving salad" mode when you get home.....throw a can of greens in there....or even better....learn to identify wild edible greens. My Mrs does this when we are camping.

Some are more bitter than others.....but you can cook them or wilt them into many different dishes.

Also if you are only talking a week or so.....a couple fiber supplement bars are highly valuable...and store well.

As far as vitamins and minerals...a week or so should really send you into depletion mode....if you are still eating relatively regularly.

A caloric boost in the outdoors is generally warranted.....our scouts will generally eat 2x their normal caloric intake while camping....I figure it is from lack of electronics...:)

Do you have a few packs of powdered Gatorade?.....good at disguising treated water and has a lot of minerals and such.

[Echo2]

97-98%, and I assume that is from people much more knowledgeable on the subject than I. Are you saying to simply trust your cravings?

Craving are the bodies way of telling you you need something.

[intothenew]

Gotcha....basically a chow box you can forget about until needed....other than rotation.


YEP

If you are in the "craving salad" mode when you get home.....throw a can of greens in there


I should never say die but, I ain't humpin, and I ain't asking the varmints to hump a can.


....or even better....learn to identify wild edible greens. My Mrs does this when we are camping.

Some are more bitter than others.....but you can cook them or wilt them into many different dishes.

If it were only me, absolutely. Greenbrier, Dandelion, Cattail, Water Lily..............Showing the varmints that has been reduced to a few particular Day Lilies in MaMaws flower beds. That one is comimg, in earnest, in their education. When is the question.

Also if you are only talking a week or so.....a couple fiber supplement bars are highly valuable...and store well.

Why not leave with the meals containing the appropriate fiber?

As far as vitamins and minerals...a week or so should really send you into depletion mode....if you are still eating relatively regularly.

But as with thirst, you are already dehydrated. Why wait?

A caloric boost in the outdoors is generally warranted.....our scouts will generally eat 2x their normal caloric intake while camping....I figure it is from lack of electronics...:)

And I hope to plan for that. Do I plan on 2x? What is 2x?

Do you have a few packs of powdered Gatorade?.....good at disguising treated water and has a lot of minerals and such.

In each of our FAK or PSK is a couple of electrolyte mixes. But, that is treating a symptom.



I mean to sound argumentative. That is not from an unwillingness to change an opinion, I haven't necessarily formed one yet.

[intothenew]

Craving are the bodies way of telling you you need something.

Then, you are treating a symptom. Can't we try to ward that off?

[intothenew]

.........................know the basic principles first....................

I have to back track a little. What are they?

[WolfVanZandt]

The first principles are how your body works (physiology - maybe just nutritional physiology), and maybe how to make food taste good. I bet you can find opensourceware to brush up on all that.

Reread my post. I did not say to simply trust your cravings. Your cravings, in fact, can lead you wrong if they're not fine tuned. You have to start with a healthy body to have healthy cravings. I will refer you back to the last sentence of my post. There are several points in addition to trusting your cravings.

"considered to be sufficient......"

Does that take into consideration the rate of excretion? Do you figure you might have to balance intake with expenditure and excretion? You're the one who asked and you're the one that wondered why it isn't working. It doesn't work because you're not working with a simple machine. You're dealing with a chaotic system. And if you don't want my opinion, don't ask. And if you don't like the sound of the advice I give, you certainly don't have to accept it.

[intothenew]

Junk in, junk out would be my simplistic thoughts. How did we get to excretion without a baseline of input?

It's not that I don't want your opinion, maybe I do and maybe I don't. I am arguing with myself on these issues, why should you be any different?

In this chaotic universe, am I to simply choose randomly/by craving/by statistics/or some other method, the menu of tomorrow?



I am of the opinion, for now, that cravings are a symptom.

First Principle should be a baseline intake?

Excretion, and I think we are getting way ahead of the game: Fiber in the appropriate amounts. Water, in the appropriate amounts.

It has worked for better than 5 decades. That's with a stocked pantry and a Piggly Wiggly to rob when returning from the field. Will it work for these kids for 9 decades, or better, is where my thoughts are.

[WolfVanZandt]

Cravings are a signal in the body that it needs something. It's not a symptom, it's a mechanism. If a car gets low on oil, a red light comes on. That's not a symptom, it's an indicator and you respond by adding oil.

Recommended daily requirements are fine if you don't stress the system. Consider the samples used to determine them. I doubt if they're using people under survival (or even camping) conditions.

Start with the baselines? Why, that's exactly what I said. Begin with the calculator recommendations as an approximation and then fine tune it as needed. You really need to go back and read what I actually said. Then you might actually be able to critique it.

But if you use the daily recommended amounts and, at the end of the day, they don't seem to be working, there's a problem with either the amounts or the way you're using them.

[BENESSE]

Cravings are a signal in the body that it needs something. It's not a symptom, it's a mechanism. If a car gets low on oil, a red light comes on. That's not a symptom, it's an indicator and you respond by adding oil.

IMO, it all depends on what the cravings are, since more often than not they are for something not good for you...kinda like a drug where you need a fix. Once you start feeding the fix it only gets worse, not better and the effect of euphoria doesn't last. If you're healthy, exercise and eat right your cravings won't be nearly as compelling, they will pass if you don't give in or you'll be able to redirect them to something healthier that will also satisfy them. It's all a matter of habit and it gets easier with time. I speak from experience.

[Echo2]

I mean to sound argumentative. That is not from an unwillingness to change an opinion, I haven't necessarily formed one yet.

2x is 2 times the normal.

How many time has a mineral or vitamin deficiency been an issue for you?

[intothenew]

I apologize for the attitude yesterday. New day, new attitude. Hopefully, for the better.



.......................Recommended daily requirements are fine if you don't stress the system.............


If I go to the Calorie Calculator (LINKY (http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm)) and enter my own personal info, and a basal metabolic rate for exercise level, I get a recommendation of 1695 calories. It is my understanding that basal metabolic rate is less than couch potato, actually laying in bed at room temperature. I cannot confirm, or deny, that number from personal experience.




...........Consider the samples used to determine them. I doubt if they're using people under survival (or even camping) conditions....................


If I go back to the Calorie Calculator changing only the exercise level to daily exercise + physical job, I get 3221 calories. Does that take into account "survival (or even camping) conditions"? Somewhat, I guess we could say.

I have some real world data to compare this to, but as you have mentioned, there are other variables.

I am a deer hunter. Roughly, I break it into two seasons. There's scouting season, and there's hunting season.

Scouting season, I am afield with a 30 pound pack almost constantly on the move. Hiking would best describe it. The weather is typically temperate. With that said, if I go back to the Calorie Calculator and add 30 pounds to my weight and use daily exercise + physical job I get 3480 calories. By comparing that to my typical menu, it somewhat agrees. I will consume between 3500 and 4000 calories per day on those jaunts without weight gain/loss.

Hunting season, I am afield with that same 30 lb load. It's just broke up a little different. I am carrying a firearm or bow, my clothing is a bit heavier, but my pack is a bit lighter because I am not carrying typical camping equipment. I am not nearly as active because there is a lot of time spent "on stand". But, I still consume that same 3500 to 4000 calories without weight gain/loss. I account that to an environmental issue, it's cold. It simply takes more calories to keep a fire going.

So to your point, "consider the samples", I get somewhat of agreement with the calculator. And to your point, "You're dealing with chaos rich systems", maybe we can define some of the variables? Total weight (pack, clothing, firearm, etc.) and the temperature are two that I think should be considered. Are there more? Certainly has to be the answer, but what are they?

[intothenew]

2x is 2 times the normal.

How many time has a mineral or vitamin deficiency been an issue for you?

I honestly don't know. Is the foot cramp a mineral/vitamin deficiency, or is it dehydration, or something else? Is the craving for that salad and can of peaches a deficiency, or simply a taste craving? I don't know.

[intothenew]

.............and eat right.............


How do you define that?

[Echo2]

I honestly don't know. Is the foot cramp a mineral/vitamin deficiency, or is it dehydration, or something else? Is the craving for that salad and can of peaches a deficiency, or simply a taste craving? I don't know.

More often than not, a cramp is dehydration....It can be from lack of different minerals....but it generally takes a while of not eating a diverse diet.

Do you suffer from cramps?

A craving can be either/or.....we as a nation have went to eating out of pleasure rather than necessity. It's usually the weird cravings that signify a deficiency.

[intothenew]

................Do you suffer from craps?.....................



Yes, and if you add an "m" the answer is still yes.

They typically occur beginning of scouting season. I account that to a rather abrupt increase in activity. I'll get them after cooling down the first evening or two. Throughout the rest of the year, they are rare, but do happen from time to time. In particular, the beginning of motorcycle season I will get some toe cramps. Again, I account that to using those particular muscles in a way they haven't been accustomed. But, I may be reading things wrong.

[Echo2]

Yes, and if you add an "m" the answer is still yes.

They typically occur beginning of scouting season. I account that to a rather abrupt increase in activity. I'll get them after cooling down the first evening or two. Throughout the rest of the year, they are rare, but do happen from time to time. In particular, the beginning of motorcycle season I will get some toe cramps. Again, I account that to using those particular muscles in a way they haven't been accustomed. But, I may be reading things wrong.

"craps"....heh heh....:)...oops

Are you currently taking any meds that the side affects are the depletion of minerals?

My mother took some meds that depleted her magnesium and potassium. She took a supplement to balance her levels.

[intothenew]

..................Are you currently taking any meds that the side affects are the depletion of minerals?................


I take no prescription meds.

I do take a low dose aspirin each day, a multi-vitamin, and a fish oil supplement. Those are also included in the packed meals.

[WolfVanZandt]

Benesse is right. I don't fast for religious purposes (it doesn't seem to work for me) but I will fast to tone my body. One thing that I've noticed with fasting is that I start actually craving what I need. A prime example is how easy it is to start craving chocolate. But once you lay off chocolate for a while, you get to where to couldn't care less about it.


If I go back to the Calorie Calculator changing only the exercise level to daily exercise + physical job, I get 3221 calories. Does that take into account "survival (or even camping) conditions"? Somewhat, I guess we could say.

I dunno, but I would expect that they didn't sample anyone under physical stress conditions. That probably needs to be checked out. When I first started working offshore, it wore me out severely. For the first couple of weeks, I had to pick up a drinking glass with two hands. After a couple of weeks, it didn't bother me anymore. Sure, I built some new muscles, but more importantly, my body adapted to the work, learned new, more efficient ways to approach the work, and it was no longer a severe physical stress - same work, but no longer a stress. A physical occupation that you're used to isn't a stress like an acute stressor would be. Hiking, camping, and survival are stresses that most people have to re-adapt to every time.


And to your point, "You're dealing with chaos rich systems", maybe we can define some of the variables?

The nature of chaos is, it doesn't matter what variables you consider, any starting condition can lead to unexpected results. It is relevant where the chaos shows up in the system and how it affects the system. If you can identify those things, you can cut down on the "areas of uncertainty" and cut down on the areas you have to prepare to play by ear in.

The key to dealing with chaotic systems is to begin with an approximation (for instance, the calculator recommendations) and then prepare to play the rest by ear. Modern science was shocked back in the first part of the 20th century to realize that something existed in nature (chaos) that would always monkeywrench anything they tried to do and they could not control it. It isn't a matter of how much we know; it is completely a matter of the characteristics of the system. Chaotic systems are inherently unpredictable.

Bad news - all natural (outside the laboratory) processes are chaos rich.
Good news - the core human brain is designed to deal with chaos.
Bad news - the output of the core brain when dealing with chaotic systems isn't verbal - it's intuitive.
Good news - people can learn to fine tune their intuitions so that they can be trusted. Example - my hand starts hurting about two days before a storm - it's more reliable than the local weather report.

Another key point - you can't force chaotic systems. My opinion is that the only way you can deal with a chaotic system is to become a part of the system and influence it.

I have cramps - in my case, it's heredity. My father also had cramps as he started getting older. I especially start cramping (me feet and ankles) when it gets cold. My father got control of his cramps using an old remedy - he drank tonic water which has quinine in it.

[BENESSE]

How do you define that?

My definition of eating right is: (goes without saying that in case of survival, all bets are off)
1) eating in moderation (portion control vs. super-sizing)
2) not eating stuff that's proven to be more harmful than helpful (trans fats, etc)
3) not eating/reducing intake of processed food
4) upping the intake of "super foods" (blueberries, raw almonds, chia, broccoli, salmon, etc, etc...it's long list, thank god)

In my mind, it's not complicated. I am not fanatical and I do on occasion have a store bought pizza, a piece of cake, a handful of Cheetos or a diet Coke. But I don't need it to be happy. And whenever I get cravings for something sweet or salty, I can easily make substitutions that do the trick.
Bottom line: The desire to be healthy far outweighs the temporary fix of eating junk.

[intothenew]

My definition of eating right is: (goes without saying that in case of survival, all bets are off)
1) eating in moderation (portion control vs. super-sizing)

But what about my string of 4k days, do I still have to be moderate? Just what is moderate?

2) not eating stuff that's proven to be more harmful than helpful (trans fats, etc)

I try to never say die, but I agree in concept

3) not eating/reducing intake of processed food

Dehydrated? That will be my biggest objection moving forward.

4) upping the intake of "super foods" (blueberries, raw almonds, chia, broccoli, salmon, etc, etc...it's long list, thank god)

A marketing term. It's certainly worthy of concept. You forgot/left out tomato, one of my personal favorites.

In my mind, it's not complicated. I am not fanatical and I do on occasion have a store bought pizza, a piece of cake, a handful of Cheetos or a diet Coke. But I don't need it to be happy. And whenever I get cravings for something sweet or salty, I can easily make substitutions that do the trick.
Bottom line: The desire to be healthy far outweighs the temporary fix of eating junk.

Sweets, soda, and junk food are not my problems. I don't crave the salts, or sweets, or quick fix. It's a heeping helping of pork, or beef, that brings me to my knees.

It surprises me that you do not quantify, other than zero, anything?

[BENESSE]

It surprises me that you do not quantify, other than zero, anything?

I don't find quantifying useful in my way of eating, only a chore. I am very aware of the nutritional value of 95% of what I eat and I hardly ever eat when I'm not hungry. I know roughly what my caloric intake should be but I don't stress over it since I'm never in danger of going ridiculously overboard on a regular basis. (I just wouldn't enjoy the feeling after the initial euphoria.)

IMO, unless you're an athlete (I am not, but I do exercise regularly) you don't have to worry about compensating for that 4K run if you eat healthy. "Super Foods" might be a marketing term (shorthand, really) but it doesn't change the fact that they pack more nutritional value than other foods labeled as "empty calories" and I can definitely feel the difference between the two. It's not imaginary.

As far as dehydrated food goes (especially when you do it yourself), I hardly think it approaches the level of highly processed food with a string of ingredients you can hardly pronounce...so no concerns there. I'd worry more about (long shelf life) canned butter and bacon, but that's just me.

And finally...it's been scientifically proven over and over again (to the point it's old news) that underfed mice lived longer, had fewer diseases/tumors, aged better, were more active and had glossier coats. Overfed mice were too heavy to move much, were lethargic, had developed tumors and lesion and their fur was dull and thinning. You can take away what you want from that but I know this much: when I polish off half a large pizza and half a bottle of cabarnet, I feel like stretching out on the sofa and barely moving whereas when I have a large salad packed with all sorts of good things and a chia drink I feel like I can run circles around Central Park, and I like how that feels.

[WolfVanZandt]

The big problem with quantifying is that, in a real survival situation, you won't have the computer or handbooks with you and, personally, I wouldn't be able to rely on my memory to come up with the necessary formulae. In a long term situation, I think I could derive some workable math, but that would be a really long term community building scenario.

[intothenew]

The big problem with quantifying is that, in a real survival situation........................................


You step beyond the scope of what I am trying to do.

I am simply trying to put some forethought into packaging meals, for myself and the grandkids, to use when hiking/camping/fishing this coming spring and summer.

[intothenew]

....................I am very aware of the nutritional value of 95% of what I eat...............


I am not. That is on a personal level, and even more true concerning the kids. But, that is going to change.

That delinquency, in a way, is what sparked the questions in the OP. In setting down a few weeks ago and beginning to actually read/comprehend nutrition labels and research the same for whole/fresh foods, I questioned just what is balanced. Is that answer going to be the same for me as it is the varmints? How much of X, Y, and Z needs to go in this bag?


I understand your bubble sort method (i.e. lose the Trans). Simple enuff, and that has been going on here in these initial stages. It's hard, and I may not be able to get rid of all of the demons, but I'm trying.


That you are aware of the "nutritional value of 95% of what I eat" tells me that somewhere along the line you have done some homework. Where is that list of "superfoods"? Where can I get reliable and complete nutritional data on fresh fruits and vegetables? I have some understanding of vitamin loss/reduction from blanching and dehydration, in particular vitamins A and C, thiamine, riboflavin and niacin. I gonna have to apply some Kentucky windage, or find a reputable source for that one also.

[BENESSE]

That you are aware of the "nutritional value of 95% of what I eat" tells me that somewhere along the line you have done some homework. Where is that list of "superfoods"? Where can I get reliable and complete nutritional data on fresh fruits and vegetables? I have some understanding of vitamin loss/reduction from blanching and dehydration, in particular vitamins A and C, thiamine, riboflavin and niacin. I gonna have to apply some Kentucky windage, or find a reputable source for that one also.

Yes, I have done a lot of homework and haven't stopped doing it.
One of the best resources I know is Center For Science In The Public Interest. I get their monthly newsletter but they are also on line with an incredible Archive of everything you can imagine. That's my food Bible of sorts.

http://www.cspinet.org/about/index.html

"The Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) is a consumer advocacy organization whose twin missions are to conduct innovative research and advocacy programs in health and nutrition, and to provide consumers with current, useful information about their health and well-being.

In general, CSPI's three main goals are:


To provide useful, objective information to the public and policymakers and to conduct research on food, alcohol, health, the environment, and other issues related to science and technology;
To represent the citizen's interests before regulatory, judicial and legislative bodies on food, alcohol, health, the environment, and other issues; and
To ensure that science and technology are used for the public good and to encourage scientists to engage in public-interest activities.

[BENESSE]

Oh, almost forgot. Another great site to check out is: http://www.healthnewsreview.org/
It's more Health oriented than Nutrition but in my mind the two are inseparable.

[BENESSE]

Also look at this from CSPI:

"What does a healthy diet look like? Despite (or maybe because of) all the diet books, food pyramids, and expert advice, most people are still confused.
Yet we know which diets can lower the risk of heart disease, the major cause of death in the United States. Odds are, those same foods can also promote weight loss and help prevent diabetes and cancer.
The tricky part is summing up an entire diet in simple, easy-to-remember advice. Here's our try...."

http://www.cspinet.org/nah/articles/whatshouldeat.html

[BENESSE]

Speaking of "Super Foods"...just a handful here but the actual list is long and varied. (I'm afraid bacon is not on it.)
http://www.cspinet.org/nah/10foods_bad.html

[intothenew]

Thanks for the links BENESSE. 3rd in that superfood list is yogurt. I've had dehydrated yogurt on the lab experiment list for a couple of weeks. I've never tried it that way, it's coming soon.

[WolfVanZandt]

I am simply trying to put some forethought into packaging meals, for myself and the grandkids, to use when hiking/camping/fishing this coming spring and summer.

I realize that, which is why I pointed out that what you are doing is useful. I still think your best bet is to start with an approximation and adjust as needed.

What about this? Start with the basic meals and then notice the results. If there seems to be something missing, look for snacks that might supply those things. Of course, you'll have to figure out just what's missing.

You don't seem to be looking for a long-term healthy diet, though, but meals that will supply what you need for "outings". If that's true, then you're not going to be all that interested in vitamins and trace minerals. Then your main concerns will be calories, water, and electrolytes, maybe fiber - am I on track, there?

It is interesting that Americans have been trying to zero in on a healthy diet forever and we're some of the most unhealthy people around. On the other hand, the French are some of the most healthy and they eat all kinds of "unhealthy" stuff with impunity. The implication is that it's not so much what we eat, but how we eat.

[BENESSE]

It is interesting that Americans have been trying to zero in on a healthy diet forever and we're some of the most unhealthy people around. On the other hand, the French are some of the most healthy and they eat all kinds of "unhealthy" stuff with impunity. The implication is that it's not so much what we eat, but how we eat.

The French Paradox...it's fascinating. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_paradox
This is pretty much how our grand parents and great grand parents ate and in looking at the old family photos I realize that no one was overweight, much less obese.

"In his book, The Fat Fallacy, Will Clower suggests the French paradox may be narrowed down to a few key factors, namely:


Good fats versus bad fats — French people get up to 80% of their fat intake from dairy and vegetable sources, including whole milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_milk), cheeses, and whole milk yogurt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogurt).
Higher quantities of fish (at least three times a week).
Smaller portions, eaten more slowly and divided among courses that let the body begin to digest food already consumed before more food is added.
Lower sugar intake — American low-fat and no-fat foods often contain high concentrations of sugar. French diets avoid these products preferring full-fat versions without added sugar.
Low incidence of snacks between meals.
Avoidance of common American food items, such as soda, deep-fried foods, snack foods, and especially prepared foods which can typically make up a large percentage of the foods found in American grocery stores."

[intothenew]

....................Then your main concerns will be calories, water, and electrolytes, maybe fiber - am I on track, there?.....................................

Kinda, sorta,...........maybe.

Yes, I will certainly have to look at this with some priority of importance to some extent. I would include things like fats, cholesterol, and sodium to the items that you mentioned, although in the contraire sense.

And let's look at that concern using one of your examples, fiber. Based on the second question in the OP:

Assuming I need a 4000 calorie diet, do I need twice the RDA of fiber? I pose that question based on the fact that the RDA is based on a 2000 calorie diet (4000/2000=2). And, I pose that question in the opposite direction. If the daily calorie intake is determined to be 1000, do I half the daily intake of fiber (1000/2000=.5)? Are those reasonable assumptions?

[WolfVanZandt]

I'm not really sure but I don't think there's a linear relationship there. Fiber doesn't provide a lot of fuel (average of 4 calories per gram) and takes a lot more to break it down that other sources of energy. I think you can figure fiber separate from calories. The average adult should be getting between 20 and 35 grams of fiber a day. Most of us don't get nearly that amount.

Anybody else have any ideas on that?

The sodium is an electrolyte and needs to be balanced with potassium and calcium. I'm thinking you'll need to consider recommended amounts and then supplement as needed due to excretion rates (esp. sweat).

[intothenew]

I'm not really sure but I don't think there's a linear relationship there. Fiber doesn't provide a lot of fuel (average of 4 calories per gram) and takes a lot more to break it down that other sources of energy. I think you can figure fiber separate from calories. The average adult should be getting between 20 and 35 grams of fiber a day. Most of us don't get nearly that amount.

Anybody else have any ideas on that?

Took the time to do a little research. This first link (LINKY (http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09333.html)) speaks of a linear relationship, 14 grams of fiber per 1000 calories consumed, but also warns of excess. They also warn of drying and crushing lowering the water holding properties of fiber. That concerns me because I had planned on a lot of dehy.

This next one (LINKY (http://www.livestrong.com/article/270741-the-effects-of-too-much-fiber-in-the-diet/)) has some of those same warnings.





The sodium is an electrolyte and needs to be balanced with potassium and calcium. I'm thinking you'll need to consider recommended amounts and then supplement as needed due to excretion rates (esp. sweat).


Linear? I have used what may, or may not, be a wives tale for years: 3 units of water, 1 unit of electrolyte mix.

[WolfVanZandt]

Looks like a good website so I would go with it as a starting point and see how it works.

I don't know about the electrolytes. I'm thinking that, since they're water soluble, mild surpluses are going to be excreted out of the blood.

[intothenew]

A couple more links.

The first one (LINKY (http://www.fitwatch.com/database/rda.php)) is for adults, and gives some indications for UL (upper limit) on vitamins and minerals. The source page they credit, for the Institute of Medicine, is busted. I'm gonna have to track that down. I'm liking what I see otherwise with that site.

The second (LINKY (http://www.fitwatch.com/database/rda.php)) is for teens. I've got to dig a little deeper into that one.

[WolfVanZandt]

Heh. My doctor has me on 4,000 mg niacin a day - they recommend an upper dose of 35 mg. I'm taking enough niacin to kill.........how many rhinos?

(sigh)

Yeah, but those look like good pages.

[intothenew]

Can I be so forward as to ask the affliction?

[WolfVanZandt]

The niacin is to adjust my "good" cholesterol. He watches my liver in case it decides to go belly up. I have some cardiac problems.

[intothenew]

I wish you the best.

And you answered, or I think you did, the side effect. (liver)