QE3 promised $40 billion per month to buy morgages....hello QE4...

[Echo2]

QE4 Is Here: Bernanke Delivers $85B-A-Month Until Unemployment Falls Below 6.5%

http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2012/12/12/qe4-is-here-bernanke-delivers-85b-a-month-until-unemployment-falls-below-6-5/

$1.2 trillion.....chump change.

They have to be trying to crash the monetary system.

[Winter]

I don't understand.

[Echo2]

I don't understand.

The Fed is printing money at the rate of $85,000,000,000.....per month....until the unemployment rate drops below 6.5%....how long could that be?

It just devalues the existing $$$

[rebel]

It's over.

Enjoy the ambience.

[rebel]

I saw in the news this morning that milk will go for $8.00 a gallon next year. Gotta redistribute...

[techiedude]

Yes i used to believe that to that printing money is going to bring us down but look at china they have been running 8 to 10 gdp printing their own money and driving the world economy. just sayin....

[Echo2]

Yes i used to believe that to that printing money is going to bring us down but look at china they have been running 8 to 10 gdp printing their own money and driving the world economy. just sayin....

Wait....wut?

[jfeatherjohn]

But if your GDP is growing 8-10%, there is room there to print money, as long as you don't over-do it. In fact, if you don't, people may gripe about the price of your exports.
But if your GDP is a bit flat, and you keep the presses running, you risk being an early 20th Century Germany.
Or something like that.

[crashdive123]

China's currency manipulation isn't all about printing money, but rather keeping the yuan artificially low which in turn gives Chinese exporters and advantage over their competition. http://money.cnn.com/2010/11/10/news/economy/what_is_currency_manipulation/index.htm

[Rick]

There obviously is a lack of understanding in what this is doing. This is a two edged sword with both sides being very, very sharp. On the one hand our economy is still struggling. Everyone understands that and the signs are pretty obvious. Higher unemployment, depressed housing market, low manufacturing output, low inventories, etc. It's all relative I suppose in what you consider "higher" unemployment but this action will provide funds for the individuals to refi their homes (remember the upside down market?). It will provide money in the form of lower interest rates to purchase both real and personal property, homes and cars, and will provide cheap money to manufacturing to increase production which we desperately need. Remember, Obama Care's drop dead date is in January and a lot of businesses slightly above the 50 employee mark will be laying off so they can be small enough to opt out. The FED knows that all too well. This will also allow the FED to better balance inflation.

On the other side of the sword is an unnatural market. Unnatural because we are aggressively managing interest rates rather than the economy managing it and the FED just tweeking it now and then. We have to come out of this market at some point and that will have to be managed very carefully. And, of course, we have to manage a $4T debt. Still not a problem if Congress would get their calculators in gear and actually do something proactively. But, without getting political, we have a historically spend Congress currently in session. Remember that we wouldn't even be facing this "fiscal cliff" if Congress hadn't created it.

So this is a really good news, might be bad news announcement. The really good news is it should help prop up mortgages and businesses. The bad news is we are accruing more debt that we will have to manage, albeit at a fairly slow rate.

[Wildthang]

And then we have the fiscal cliff! If taxes go up it will be a double whammy to the already flailing economy! The Mayans might have been correct. It's the end of prosperity as we know it:scared:

[ElevenBravo]

All I know, is I live paycheck to paycheck... and some times... I dont even make it that far.

IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with that picture. Even after working 56 hours, I still dont have enough to sustain my own economic system. And I know Im not the only one...

[crashdive123]

Which is why - from a survival point of view it is imperative to live within or below your means.

[cwi555]

QE 4 actually started with 3. It was inherent due to the fractional reserve system. It's only recent news that what is actually occurring is being fessed up to.

[WolfVanZandt]

If all I am concerned about is my own survival, then I might be able to live within my means, but I'm one of those sheepdogs and I have to be doing something about all those sheep.

The problem is that we've been pumping chaos into the system to the point that we can no longer predict the outcome of any decision. Our free market requires that we allow industry to make money any way they can, but economy works within a balance of supply and demand. When oil companies can artificially drive their prices any way they choose (they, after all, have us all over a barrel), supply and demand no longer works which destabilizes the whole economy. Prices of everything continue to go up but incomes remain pretty much the same or, if they increase it's nowhere near what's needed to keep up with the cost of living. Destabilize economy, pretty soon you destabilize society.

People fess up to exactly what they have to fess up to........and no more.

[Echo2]

There obviously is a lack of understanding in what this is doing. This is a two edged sword with both sides being very, very sharp. On the one hand our economy is still struggling. Everyone understands that and the signs are pretty obvious. Higher unemployment, depressed housing market, low manufacturing output, low inventories, etc. It's all relative I suppose in what you consider "higher" unemployment but this action will provide funds for the individuals to refi their homes (remember the upside down market?). It will provide money in the form of lower interest rates to purchase both real and personal property, homes and cars, and will provide cheap money to manufacturing to increase production which we desperately need. Remember, Obama Care's drop dead date is in January and a lot of businesses slightly above the 50 employee mark will be laying off so they can be small enough to opt out. The FED knows that all too well. This will also allow the FED to better balance inflation.

On the other side of the sword is an unnatural market. Unnatural because we are aggressively managing interest rates rather than the economy managing it and the FED just tweeking it now and then. We have to come out of this market at some point and that will have to be managed very carefully. And, of course, we have to manage a $4T debt. Still not a problem if Congress would get their calculators in gear and actually do something proactively. But, without getting political, we have a historically spend Congress currently in session. Remember that we wouldn't even be facing this "fiscal cliff" if Congress hadn't created it.

So this is a really good news, might be bad news announcement. The really good news is it should help prop up mortgages and businesses. The bad news is we are accruing more debt that we will have to manage, albeit at a fairly slow rate.

Do you think that this debt is actually manageable?

Do you think Congress will do anything that will affect the deficit on a realistic downward direction?

The banks are already forgiving up to 17 months of slow to no payment on mortgages....will the refi of a private mortgage help or hurt the folks doing it?

With the market value of their home being less than it was 10 years ago....and the majority of the homes in threat foreclosure were bought within the past 10 years....the principal has hardly been touched on a 30yr mortgage. The only thing that it will accomplish is a slightly lower interest rate. On a home that they were squeaking by to make the payment on anyway...I don't see a real world benefit.

I don't see where every taxpayer having to help bail out those who have not adjusted to a change in income....or who have purchased a home that they could barely afford in the first place.....helps. It just brings down the rest.

Just my opinion.....but I don't see this as good news....just a band-aid put on an arterial bleed.

[Warheit]

All I know, is I live paycheck to paycheck... and some times... I dont even make it that far.

IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with that picture. Even after working 56 hours, I still dont have enough to sustain my own economic system. And I know Im not the only one...

Then you are obviously spending more than you actually need to.

[WolfVanZandt]

I don't think that's a truism, Warheit. If you live in society, you have to pay for utilities, you have to buy groceries, you have to buy gasoline if you're going to have mobility (freedom). Those things, as I said above are becoming more and more expensive way and beyond what the laws of supply and demand allow and incomes are just not keeping up. If you can find a plot of land to move outside the system, that's one option, but then you also move yourself, as part of a solution, outside the system. That's not acceptable for some of us.

[Warheit]

I don't think that's a truism, Warheit. If you live in society, you have to pay for utilities, you have to buy groceries, you have to buy gasoline if you're going to have mobility (freedom). Those things, as I said above are becoming more and more expensive way and beyond what the laws of supply and demand allow and incomes are just not keeping up. If you can find a plot of land to move outside the system, that's one option, but then you also move yourself, as part of a solution, outside the system. That's not acceptable for some of us.

Incomes are not keeping up with the price of goods and inflation, I can agree with that. Though that doesn't take away from the fact that personal responsibility and sound fiscal management needs to be played into the equation. I'm not accusing 11B of not having that, but I'm curious as to why he is living paycheck to paycheck when he is working more hours than the average Joe. It sounds like he either has a pretty good job or a couple to get in a lot of hours. I commend him for his hard work, and I know that these aren't easy times for a lot of people. Everyone's situation is unique, but working 50+ hours a week and still not being able to make ends meet seems a little strange, but that is just because I'm comparing it to my situation. I will gladly share.

I work 40 hours a week and have thought about picking up an extra part time job, just because I have a lot of free time. I can be done by 3:30 PM every day if I want to -- which leaves me hours to do whatever I want. The job I have now makes several dollars less an hour, which translates to thousands of dollars less per year annual income to what I was accustomed to when I worked in the legal field. My mandatory expenses (utilities, bills, college loans, rent, etc.) are roughly the same as they were then (perhaps a little less) yet I am saving more now making MUCH less money (~ 350 per paycheck) because I made lifestyle changes and decided what is essential and what is not.

Expenses I cut out:

Going out to eat. It is easy to spend ~ 30 to 50 bucks a week if you eat out and not even notice it. I will go out to eat once a week with my friends, having the usual meal and a Newcastle Beer and will spend 15 bucks. Limit set.

Cutting down on cigarettes. This is a vice I am not happy to say I have. It is an absolute money pit. Going from ~ a pack a day smoker for the past couple of years to half that saves me well over a hundred bucks a month.

Cutting off from material goods and recognizing needs vs. wants. I don't have cable TV, just internet access and Netflix and Hulu. I spend roughly ~ 50 bucks a month for my entertainment when most people spend double that. I use the 27" CRT television I had when I was a teenager and don't care about buying awesome new things. The biggest investments I've made personally in material goods were for a new laptop and a PS3 -- which were treats for myself after graduating, moving a few times and working hard for a few years post college. I saved up for a while to get those. I honestly didn't need them either. Had I not done that, I'd have a lot more money in the bank. (Used that illustration to show how much can be saved by just two things, ~ 1,500 USD!)

I shop at thrift stores if I want to get clothes. I hardly, if ever, in the past 5 years -- go into a nice store and get something new. I did it for a few weddings and funerals I have went to over the past few years, but outside that -- no. Why pay 40$ for a pair of Docker khaki's to wear in the office when you can get brand new looking ones at Savers or the Salvation Army for a couple bucks a pair? I still wear some shirts I had from when I was 17 years old. Wear my shoes until they cannot be worn any longer. Sometimes you learn to do without.

I read a report a while back saying that my generation (Millennial) spends roughly ~ 800 bucks a month on going out to movies, eating, bars, etc. That is pretty mind blowing considering most people my age would be lucky to making that every two weeks in this economy, but I look back at my days right out of college with a great job and realize I was one of those people.

Being single helps (no family expenses), but I do have things in my own personal situation that cost me great deal of my money too.

Oh, I also walk / bike to work (no biking in winter) because it is less than a mile from my house. No sense in driving and wasting gas money when all it takes is a little will power in the rough cold to get there.

Just saying that one can get by and do well, even on a limited income if they have their priorities straight. :) Just my experience. Then again, I know friends of mine who make much more than I do, but can't manage $ to save their life.

[Echo2]

Incomes are not keeping up with the price of goods and inflation, I can agree with that. Though that doesn't take away from the fact that personal responsibility and sound fiscal management needs to be played into the equation. I'm not accusing 11B of not having that, but I'm curious as to why he is living paycheck to paycheck when he is working more hours than the average Joe. It sounds like he either has a pretty good job or a couple to get in a lot of hours. I commend him for his hard work, and I know that these aren't easy times for a lot of people. Everyone's situation is unique, but working 50+ hours a week and still not being able to make ends meet seems a little strange, but that is just because I'm comparing it to my situation. I will gladly share.

I work 40 hours a week and have thought about picking up an extra part time job, just because I have a lot of free time. I can be done by 3:30 PM every day if I want to -- which leaves me hours to do whatever I want. The job I have now makes several dollars less an hour, which translates to thousands of dollars less per year annual income to what I was accustomed to when I worked in the legal field. My mandatory expenses (utilities, bills, college loans, rent, etc.) are roughly the same as they were then (perhaps a little less) yet I am saving more now making MUCH less money (~ 350 per paycheck) because I made lifestyle changes and decided what is essential and what is not.

Expenses I cut out:

Going out to eat. It is easy to spend ~ 30 to 50 bucks a week if you eat out and not even notice it. I will go out to eat once a week with my friends, having the usual meal and a Newcastle Beer and will spend 15 bucks. Limit set.

Cutting down on cigarettes. This is a vice I am not happy to say I have. It is an absolute money pit. Going from ~ a pack a day smoker for the past couple of years to half that saves me well over a hundred bucks a month.

Cutting off from material goods and recognizing needs vs. wants. I don't have cable TV, just internet access and Netflix and Hulu. I spend roughly ~ 50 bucks a month for my entertainment when most people spend double that. I use the 27" CRT television I had when I was a teenager and don't care about buying awesome new things. The biggest investments I've made personally in material goods were for a new laptop and a PS3 -- which were treats for myself after graduating, moving a few times and working hard for a few years post college. I saved up for a while to get those. I honestly didn't need them either. Had I not done that, I'd have a lot more money in the bank. (Used that illustration to show how much can be saved by just two things, ~ 1,500 USD!)

I shop at thrift stores if I want to get clothes. I hardly, if ever, in the past 5 years -- go into a nice store and get something new. I did it for a few weddings and funerals I have went to over the past few years, but outside that -- no. Why pay 40$ for a pair of Docker khaki's to wear in the office when you can get brand new looking ones at Savers or the Salvation Army for a couple bucks a pair? I still wear some shirts I had from when I was 17 years old. Wear my shoes until they cannot be worn any longer. Sometimes you learn to do without.

I read a report a while back saying that my generation (Millennial) spends roughly ~ 800 bucks a month on going out to movies, eating, bars, etc. That is pretty mind blowing considering most people my age would be lucky to making that every two weeks in this economy, but I look back at my days right out of college with a great job and realize I was one of those people.

Being single helps (no family expenses), but I do have things in my own personal situation that cost me great deal of my money too.

Oh, I also walk / bike to work (no biking in winter) because it is less than a mile from my house. No sense in driving and wasting gas money when all it takes is a little will power in the rough cold to get there.

Just saying that one can get by and do well, even on a limited income if they have their priorities straight. :) Just my experience. Then again, I know friends of mine who make much more than I do, but can't manage $ to save their life.

This is what gets me....you are doing what you can to get by....and you are still having to shoulder the weight of the rest of those who don't make the sacrifices.

And we will be paying for their mistakes for years and years to come.

[Rick]

Echo2:

Yes
Yes but only when they have to. We're in a spend Congress right now and I've said all along, even before the election, nothing would happen in the next 4 years.
Okay. No argument on the next 3
And your opinion. As valid as the next one.

[Warheit]

This is what gets me....you are doing what you can to get by....and you are still having to shoulder the weight of the rest of those who don't make the sacrifices.

And we will be paying for their mistakes for years and years to come.

Well, I get by just fine. I have paid off my rent several months in advance, as well as my school bills. Only a few bills a month until March rolls around. My goal is to roughly save 35% of my income each month and put it into savings and or investments. I was lucky enough to land a job where I get a good 401(k) -- but plan on cashing that out right away after my job ends (which is probably this Spring, could get extended but it all depends on if a new budget is reached in Congress or they keep with the continuing resolution, BS). I do what I can to make sure that $ doesn't rule my life, which essentially means hiding it by whatever means necessary and always putting a quarter in the ceilin'.

I don't expect others to make the sacrifices I have, nor do I believe we have a society that has their heads in the right place anyways. I do what I can to help myself, my family and those close to me. Spent more getting groceries and donating multiple hams (20 pounds) to local churches and Salvation Army this year to help those in need than I will be spending on myself and my loved ones this Christmas. I have a roof over my head, warm clothes and pretty much all I can ask for -- besides a Broncos third Super Bowl victory.

I don't feel like I am carrying a burden from anyone else. I realize we live in a debt society (unlikely to ever change, not until the bottom falls out) and am well-versed in the intricacies of government and politics because that is where my schooling resides and a lot of my working experience comes from. I don't expect Congress to get anything fixed in the near future because of certain forces within it who are not willing to come to the middle on anything. I also am a firm believer in the power of words, and by no damn surprise, "Congress" is one of the most inefficient tools of government that exists.

My life philosophy is quite simple: Learn something new each day. Continue to grow. Don't fear change, don't live in fear. Help out others. Do my best to spread love and joy to those I can, by any means necessary. Respect your family ties and lineage.

Sometimes I fail at some things, because nobody is a perfect person, but those are simple goals to have. Smile as much as possible too!

Have a blessed Christmas and wonderful holiday season, Echo -- and everyone else too. Wish I would have got to the gift exchange thread sooner! My ma works at an outdoors store and I coulda got some good deals for some folks!

[WolfVanZandt]

You are certainly right, Warheit. Fiscal responsibility (all kinds of responsibility) is important (well, it's our responsibility). But different parts of the country (of the world) are experiencing different financial pressures. If you can make ends meet now, don't assume it will be so easy in the future.

[Warheit]

You are certainly right, Warheit. Fiscal responsibility (all kinds of responsibility) is important (well, it's our responsibility). But different parts of the country (of the world) are experiencing different financial pressures. If you can make ends meet now, don't assume it will be so easy in the future.

The financial implications across the globe pretty much have a common source. I don't make that assumption. I just know that I am confident in myself to be able to take care of #1 and to be smart enough to not let $ rule my life.

[WolfVanZandt]

Glad it's working out for you. Hoping 2013 will be just as good to you.