Can we honestly talk about this........

[Sourdough]

I don't know where I want to go with this thread, but the post that "Kyratshooter" made in the E&E thread seems painfully true for me. Perhaps I felt that I was kidding or deluding myself. I guess I have to see the truth about myself, and it is embarrassing and painful.
Kyratshooter, thank you for saying what you said, it is spot on true about me.





kyratshooter posted:


"The problem is that many people on fourms are there to feed their own need, to boost their own self image and show their superior knowledge. They can not resist "giving advice" to the poor soul, because that is how they are getting their own ego fix.

Many of us are simply here to waste time, and you can not do that effectively when ignoring trolls."

[kyratshooter]

Self reflection was speaking. I resemble that remark as much as anyone.

Continue.

[hunter63]

Today's trolls might be tomorrows major contributor....maybe not....LOL
But yeah, I probably spend too much time fooling around on forum , but I have expanded my thinking, on many things, I guess an open mind is hard to keep open.

It's real hard not to just dismiss someone with a "Hey Dumas, you are gonna hurt your self"....sometimes.

Good point, thanks Krat.

[natertot]

I'm here to learn and learn alot I have. I still have more than I can imagine to learn. If someone comes along wanting to know something that I do know, I would like to pass is on. Some people come here thinking they can do whatever because they watched a show or saw something on youtube. I like the saying that continues to float around here. "Boots in the field". I just wish some people would have more sense then to just "run off to the woods" or whatever. Pick a task and practice. Master that and try to make it harder, or start learning yet another task.

Personally, if someone comes around wanting help to run off, give them good sound advice. If they are too dumb (not the member) and want to argue or not listen, I say shrug it off and let them figure it out the hard way.

Just my two cents. Can I get a receipt?

[Rick]

Instead of re-inventing fire 100 times or reinventing clean water 100 times, any of which could get you hurt, we can review what 100 other people have done then go out and try the 1, 2 or 3 ways we think seems best. It's no different that reading about something then trying it except here you have multiple authors and in the book only one or two. I'm not sure why giving advice is an ego trip. Especially when someone asks for help or said advice.

[Sourdough]

[QUOTE=Rick;353582

I'm not sure why giving advice is an ego trip.[/QUOTE]


Interesting that you don't see that, or refuse to see that. When "Kyratshooter" held up the mirror, I could clearly see myself, like a bucket of ice cold water in the morning I could see myself.

[Rick]

So if someone asks you for directions and you give them, that's an ego trip?
If someone ask you how to reload or pack meat or set the altimeter on an aircraft? Folks come on here all the time and ask questions. Should everyone just remain silent for fear of looking like they are on an ego trip? I get nothing from answering a question. My ego trip comes when I watch my grand daughter play softball or volleyball or watch my grandson perform at school. My little ones give me enough ego trip I don't have to get it here.

[RangerXanatos]

I have to disagree for the most part. If you ask a question, you're setting someone up to stroke their own ego. If you post a comment that is not a question, your stroking your own ego and having it reinforced by others' comments. Is this really true? No. Everyone needs a pat on the back and it's ok to give it on occasion. It's healthy. If you feel this is you, then that's ok. But not everyone is waitiing and hoping to get their ego stroked. Some want to share their success with others, welcome constructive feedback, or give constructive feedback. I'm sure that close to everyone on this forum first joined to learn about WIlderness Survival. Now as many of us have become friends with each other on the forums, that thought may have shifted to socializing or wasting time. But I, for one, feel it a responsibility to help those that we can, when we can. I will not stop posting questions, comments, or offer advice even if one thinks me to be stroking mine or others' egos.

[Wildthang]

Well all I know, is when you ask a question on this forum, you immediately get a whole lot of matter of fact answers and advice, and a lot of times, the tone is close to being stated in a demeaning way. This is what a new member percieves because that is how it felt when I joined. Fortunately I have stuck around long enough to learn that the members here are just trying to give good advice, and help others even when the truth hurts.
Many of the members here are very knowleagable, and have a huge amount of experience, so once you get to know them, you get used to it. I think that the survivor breed of people on here are a little brash because most people that love the wilderness, nature, and places with few people, are also the type that have little tolerance for other people. Not always but in general!
So in my humble opinion, we should go alittle easier on new members, and poeple that have the dreams of living in the wilderness, and getting away from society. Most of them really dont understand the challenges, so when we lambaste them with our brash opinions, I am afraid thet instead of really listening to us, they will simply join another forum where some people may encourage their foolish dreams, or simply write us off and a bunch of know it all's, and go ahead with their plans.
So where is the majic line, I really dont know. What I do know is that when I first joined, I felt like I was surrounded by the biggest bunch of critics I have ever encountered. Of course I feel differently now, but to new members, we really come off in an extremely brash attitude because we either go totally off topic and thread jack a thread, or we more or less insinuate that they are dummasses, simply by the tone in which we reply.

[Sarge47]

It all has to start somewhere. A Newbie shows up who wants info on the outdoors. Many of us chime in and give it. Sometimes it's not what the Newbie wanted to hear and oft-times they're offended because we didn't help pat themselves on the back. Sometimes a newbie learns, Kamel comes to mind. They understand that they actually need to learn and they soak up as much as they can as quick as they can. Those are the ones I like to help. The "learners." However, if we don't give them a chance we'll never know which group they belong in, and just because they refuse to learn doesn't always make them a troll. Sometimes they're just stubborn and who knows what lays down the road. I don't ban anybody until I see something drastic in their behavior. Also, I don't necessarily think that a member is "stroking his ego" when he gives info when asked. Is "taking pride in your accomplishment" and wanting to share it "Ego Stroking?" And if so...so what? Look at the mind-set of the people who join forums like these. I sort of expect it. What I WOULD like to see, however, is when a Newbie get's their panties in a wad and is vocal about refusing to learn that EVERY member shut down! Not another word! Let that person stew for awhile until they either leave or apologize and start to learn that even social behavior is part of survival. I don't know how that would work but I would like to see it happen and watch the results. :chinese:

[hunter63]

I guess it something about what is expected.......Lots of folks here from the 'make your own way" way of life, ie "surviviors",..... with Boots in the field, pic's showing it did happen, and caring to share experiances/mistakes, so as some one else doesn't make them.

I would suspect there are a lot more in the world that simply don't have time or truck with foolishness, and don't take part at all.......waste of time.

So mix that with a younger," instant gratification/give them a trophy 'cuse the showed up" way of life...gonna be some "hazing?, making your bones, paying your dues...what ever you want to call it...gonna be some hard feelings.

A lot can be determined by the responses after a few posts.....and the fact remains there are Dumasses out there.
BTW glad you stuck around, shows you have what it takes.

[BENESSE]

I don't know where I want to go with this thread, but the post that "Kyratshooter" made in the E&E thread seems painfully true for me. Perhaps I felt that I was kidding or deluding myself. I guess I have to see the truth about myself, and it is embarrassing and painful.
Kyratshooter, thank you for saying what you said, it is spot on true about me.


kyratshooter posted:


"The problem is that many people on fourms are there to feed their own need, to boost their own self image and show their superior knowledge. They can not resist "giving advice" to the poor soul, because that is how they are getting their own ego fix.

Many of us are simply here to waste time, and you can not do that effectively when ignoring trolls."

SD, would you elaborate on why you feel the comment was spot on about you?
What is your motivation when offering advice?

[Sourdough]

SD, would you elaborate on why you feel the comment was spot on about you?
What is your motivation when offering advice?

I would like to think it is to help, however I have to say in all honesty that ego is a large part.

[Sarge47]

I would like to think it is to help, however I have to say in all honesty that ego is a large part.

I'm curious, SD, why do you think that "ego" is a bad thing? It's just another part of who we are, right? :detective:

[BENESSE]

As long as you're speaking from personal experience and knowledge, the reasons why aren't that important. Some of the greatest people had huge egos and apparently that hasn't taken away from their greatness.
Now, when someone has the need to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral, one has to wonder how genuine they are.

[jhnnymwr75]

I agree with WildThang about how we (although I like to believe I don't do it often) attack new members, I've walked the miles in there shoes but I've learned greatly from both sides of the fences. I admit I can fill a bit of an ego trip answering a question or advising someone, because I don't have much to that says I've made it my own way so when I step out and show I'm not just average it makes a tad bit of an ego trip. But the greatest things come with time and are not handed to you on a silver platter. I feel almost as if the beginning harshnes was a test to prove a deserve to pick the fruit of knowledge from your tree, also showing that when thingsnget tuff, we don't backdown. I don't remember who (sorry for not) but they said most people pop up every two weeks and don't really do much. I was like that at first, but mow this is am daily thing, I may not post daily, but thats because I'm learning and my two cents my not be worth as much as the next guys, especially with the gold mine of knowledge here. But the whole ego thing, I see as separate from us, because the ego seems to us in a position of superiority over others. When we are selves are equals and are living the same experience and only should be treated asnwe treat others. But I guess in the end all I can say that's my view, take it or not it's still there.

[Wildthang]

Well I think we are all a bunch of know it all old fogies, or is that fogy's, or is that foagies.........................awwwwww never mind! How do you spell that:confused1:

[kyratshooter]

The person with a real ego problem would be the one that corrected your spelling.

[Rick]

Personally - I don't think I give a new member a hard time. That's my view and maybe it's wrong, I don't know. I will correct a new member if they post something that is incorrect. By the same token, I expect members to correct me when I post something wrong. I think we have an obligation to each other and ourselves to post information that is correct. If someone posts that peeing on an electric fence will cure your migraines and we let it stand then someone, somewhere is going to try it. Why not, nothing else has worked, right? And let's face it, some very dangerous items have been posted particularly when it comes to medical misinformation. I'm not going to offer examples because it would only antagonize the poster and that's not my point.

I am one of the very, very few folks that will bother posting sources. There are a couple of others that do so but that's about it. The rest is based on heresay or opinion and it's guarded like a first son. I don't understand that. The reason I post my sources is so you know I'm not pulling something out of my pocket. That there really is a basis for my position.

If I post something wrong then I expect to be called on it. You're actually doing me and everyone else a favor. I get to learn something, which I love to do, and everyone gets the benefit of correct info. I see that as a win/win.

[Sarge47]

I agree with WildThang about how we (although I like to believe I don't do it often) attack new members....

But do we attack new members? Is a request for further data on a new member an attack? When someone new shows up and gives us a few facts like age, marital status, and general location, for example, we know better on how to respond to their questions. However, when they don't post any info on themselves, and they get bent out of shape over it when we ask, then it would appear that they may be hiding something. A good example of this is that in the past we've had teenagers show up planning on running away from home and trying to get info from this site to help enable them to do so. I don't want to give anybody under the age of 18 info on anything like that, it sets the wrong example. When someone new shows up and gives an honest intro I don't see any negative comments coming from the members, just a warm welcome! :detective:

[oldtrap59]

I for one hope that those of you that have decided that your on here, commenting on threads or writing threads for your own ego, don't stop. Ego or not isn't important. The thing that's important is the information. That's what I'm here for and I imagine that's true of most of us. So maybe your feathers get ruffled from time to time. That's part of life.JMO

Oldtrap

[wildWoman]

If I have a question, I really don't give a flying fart if the knowledgeable person answering it is the world's most annoying narcissist and egomaniac, as long as I get an answer to my question. It's not like I want to marry them.
As for giving advice, I always find it amazing how little I know. I always say the same old things. As far as wilderness advice is concerned, by now I say these same old things with my eyes rolling back into my head because it seems that the people who actually want to go and do stuff are already out there, doing it, while the rest are procrastinating by asking gazillions of questions.
I don't go on forums for an egotrip, it's pretty much my only chance to "talk" to new people. Only other way for me to talk with people I don't already know would be to chat up strangers twice a year when I buy dog food, gas and nails. Living in the bush is no different than living anywhere else, really, you've got your daily routines and anyone who seriously wants to do it can do it - there is nothing to it, so it would be hard to make an ego trip out of it.

[Besttracker]

Today's trolls might be tomorrows major contributor....maybe not....LOL
But yeah, I probably spend too much time fooling around on forum , but I have expanded my thinking, on many things, I guess an open mind is hard to keep open.

It's real hard not to just dismiss someone with a "Hey Dumas, you are gonna hurt your self"....sometimes.

Good point, thanks Krat.

Yep----> I'll go there with ya .

[jhnnymwr75]

But do we attack new members? Is a request for further data on a new member an attack?
I guess I miss worded that. I didn't intentionally mean 'attacking' but it almost seems as at times your being ganged up on at first. Like I saw a thread, in which I also participated in, where everyone said 'good luck with that' among other things. If you look at it from another persons view, like I decided to on that strange day, I would have taken that as everyone saw me as a joke. Although if I remember right, the thread kinda seemed resemble as much. But none the less, nobody wants to be taken as a joke. But as with the whole running away thing at the under age of 17, I say instead of just making remarks, we help them. Not giving them information to survive, but information to cooperate with society. Because if I wanted to run away from home and all I got was 'good luck with that' i'd just be more pissed, and leave unprepared and more than likely die. You wouldn't know I died, but that thought would haunt me forever if I was you. But we all have different opinions.

[Winter]

"The problem is that many people on fourms are there to feed their own need, to boost their own self image and show their superior knowledge. They can not resist "giving advice" to the poor soul, because that is how they are getting their own ego fix.



Same in real life. Just here nobody throat punches dumbasses.

[Celticwarrior]

But do we attack new members? Is a request for further data on a new member an attack? When someone new shows up and gives us a few facts like age, marital status, and general location, for example, we know better on how to respond to their questions. However, when they don't post any info on themselves, and they get bent out of shape over it when we ask, then it would appear that they may be hiding something. A good example of this is that in the past we've had teenagers show up planning on running away from home and trying to get info from this site to help enable them to do so. I don't want to give anybody under the age of 18 info on anything like that, it sets the wrong example. When someone new shows up and gives an honest intro I don't see any negative comments coming from the members, just a warm welcome! :detective:

Agreed. Who here would want to be the one that spurs the next Chris McCandless to go off and find adventure in the deep woods only to read about his untimely death from exposure or injury? On the other hand, if someone genuinely needs help, and asks for it, then by rights I think that those of us who have been doing this all their lives should weigh in and speak to their concerns. Whether someone is a 'troll' or not, there are probably a lot of REAL people on the forum who find that information helpful as well. I think people should ask themselves, "If you aren't here to help or be helped in some way, why ARE you here?" A forum is usually to discuss common interests and to help folks of all experience levels with their questions. Could be something as simple as what plant is this or what is the best method for doing this or that. Could be a bigger question like "What would I need to survive this particular scenario?" If you know the answer, then you should say something and help out. If you think that answering questions makes someone a 'know-it-all' or 'egomaniac' then I would say the problem lies not with that person, but with you. Helping is part of ANY community. No one tells their oncologist that they are just feeding their own ego by diagnosing and treating their cancer. No one accuses the cop of feeding her own ego when she stops a robbery in progress. No one thinks the librarian is just a meglomaniac because they know where to find a certain book on a certain subject. How is the membership participating here any different?

[natertot]

As I stated earlier, I'm here to learn and in the rare chance I can pass info on, I will.

Ego? I don't know about that. If I share a success, it isn't for ego. It is to share it with those who helped me succeed. I think it would be difficult to coach a team and not know the outcome of the game.

Harsh on new members? Maybe. I think that alot people get on forums to try to feel important or for their self-esteem. I think that the initial "harshness" may seperate the serious people from the 40 year old still leaving in mom's basement.

[JPGreco]

I guess I miss worded that. I didn't intentionally mean 'attacking' but it almost seems as at times your being ganged up on at first. Like I saw a thread, in which I also participated in, where everyone said 'good luck with that' among other things. If you look at it from another persons view, like I decided to on that strange day, I would have taken that as everyone saw me as a joke. Although if I remember right, the thread kinda seemed resemble as much. But none the less, nobody wants to be taken as a joke. But as with the whole running away thing at the under age of 17, I say instead of just making remarks, we help them. Not giving them information to survive, but information to cooperate with society. Because if I wanted to run away from home and all I got was 'good luck with that' i'd just be more pissed, and leave unprepared and more than likely die. You wouldn't know I died, but that thought would haunt me forever if I was you. But we all have different opinions.


I disagree with a lot of that. The majority of people who come here posting about living alone in the woods are dreaming. Its not a realistic dream. Generally the issue is answered in the first post and then the OP gets mad. The other thing is that most people are too lazy to properly research the topic and come to a forum to ask a question that has been asked over and over. Another forum I'm part of actually put in a newbie section as a safe zone, though the general response in there became "search" because of the repetitiveness. Its a matter of tolerance and even people who are generally helpful get tired of answering the same questions. In the case of "i wanna go live in the woods unprepared" most of those individuals get upset when they are told their plan won't work, which elicits responses from members.

In regards to this thread's OP, I don't believe it is as much an ego feed on giving advice, but the idea that when someone starts a thread it is implied that they are seeking advice, especially when the OP is worded certain ways. People saying "I'm running away, am I prepared or Who wants to go with me" are always assumed to be in need of advice, which they usually get, but don't appreciate. They are often told it won't work, don't do it. They get mad and then the thread dissolves. I tried recently to give proper advice, but the individual was stubborn and close minded. Not in response to me, but in general and ended up being banned. I will try again at the next person and see what happens since I'm trying to turn over a new leaf in my own life and small steps such as this are a small part of the grander plan.

[Winter]

I guess I miss worded that. I didn't intentionally mean 'attacking' but it almost seems as at times your being ganged up on at first. Like I saw a thread, in which I also participated in, where everyone said 'good luck with that' among other things. If you look at it from another persons view, like I decided to on that strange day, I would have taken that as everyone saw me as a joke. Although if I remember right, the thread kinda seemed resemble as much. But none the less, nobody wants to be taken as a joke. But as with the whole running away thing at the under age of 17, I say instead of just making remarks, we help them. Not giving them information to survive, but information to cooperate with society. Because if I wanted to run away from home and all I got was 'good luck with that' i'd just be more pissed, and leave unprepared and more than likely die. You wouldn't know I died, but that thought would haunt me forever if I was you. But we all have different opinions.

This diatribe is not directed at you.

Here's the thing. I, we, like far more exhaustive introductions so we know who we are talking to.

"I'm bob from bubbaville, nice to be here" Really? Did you not read the forum rules or intro suggestions? Enter any social group with a posted set of rules. (bingo,AA,The Elks, VFW) Than feel free to gallivant around ignoring those and expect to be treated with respect. It doesn't happen. Who the hell are you?

I read the rules and guideline -http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?7813-Posting-Your-Introduction

Then, because I'm awesome, I followed them.
http://www.wilderness-survival.net/forums/showthread.php?13005-Hello-fellow-uneven-groundwalkers

Everybody knew who I "was". I could have asked the "hey guys I'm going off in the woods for a month out of a backpack" thread and may have been treated seriously.

Information breeds information.

How do I defend my house? Well, I can tell ya, send me a range card, a 1/10,000 map, and a 1/25000 map, and a larger map. Tell me exactly how your house is built. What kinda siding, what kinda roofing, what's the water table?

You get out of these things what you put into them.

[tjwilhelm]

I'd just like to point out that WildThang specifically asked how to spell "fogies, or is that fogys, or is that foagies," and no one has come forward to help him!

[Winter]

Being an acronym, it's FOG's.

[crashdive123]

I'd just like to point out that WildThang specifically asked how to spell "fogies, or is that fogys, or is that foagies," and no one has come forward to help him!

Source: WordNet (r) 1.7

fogey
n : (informal) someone whose style is out of fashion [syn: dodo,
fogy, fossil]

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Fo'gey \Fo'gey\, n.
See Fogy.
Fogy \Fo"gy\, n.; pl. Fogies.
A dull old fellow; a person behind the times,
over-conservative, or slow; -- usually preceded by old.
[Written also fogie and fogey.] [Colloq.]

Notorious old bore; regular old fogy. --Thackeray.

Source: http://dictionary.die.net/fogey

[crashdive123]

I don't know where I want to go with this thread, but the post that "Kyratshooter" made in the E&E thread seems painfully true for me. Perhaps I felt that I was kidding or deluding myself. I guess I have to see the truth about myself, and it is embarrassing and painful.
Kyratshooter, thank you for saying what you said, it is spot on true about me.





kyratshooter posted:


"The problem is that many people on fourms are there to feed their own need, to boost their own self image and show their superior knowledge. They can not resist "giving advice" to the poor soul, because that is how they are getting their own ego fix.

Many of us are simply here to waste time, and you can not do that effectively when ignoring trolls."

While this may be true for some, I do not believe it is the norm here. I think for most that have "been there, done that" it is the desire to share their passion with others in the hope that they too will find enjoyment in the wilderness. That obviously extends into other interests and pursuits.

Where I believe it is pertinent is in those cases where individuals continually offer advice, suggestions and condemnations, not based on experience, but rather on the deeds and words of others. That, my friend is IMO ego stroking to try and make others believe you are something you are not. Sourdough - you do not fall into that category.

[jhnnymwr75]

I disagree with a lot of that. The majority of people who come here posting about living alone in the woods are dreaming. Its not a realistic dream. Generally the issue is answered in the first post and then the OP gets mad. The other thing is that most people are too lazy to properly research the topic and come to a forum to ask a question that has been asked over and over. Another forum I'm part of actually put in a newbie section as a safe zone, though the general response in there became "search" because of the repetitiveness. Its a matter of tolerance and even people who are generally helpful get tired of answering the same questions. In the case of "i wanna go live in the woods unprepared" most of those individuals get upset when they are told their plan won't work, which elicits responses from members.

In regards to this thread's OP, I don't believe it is as much an ego feed on giving advice, but the idea that when someone starts a thread it is implied that they are seeking advice, especially when the OP is worded certain ways. People saying "I'm running away, am I prepared or Who wants to go with me" are always assumed to be in need of advice, which they usually get, but don't appreciate. They are often told it won't work, don't do it. They get mad and then the thread dissolves. I tried recently to give proper advice, but the individual was stubborn and close minded. Not in response to me, but in general and ended up being banned. I will try again at the next person and see what happens since I'm trying to turn over a new leaf in my own life and small steps such as this are a small part of the grander plan.

You make a good point, and I respect what your saying. I have not personally attempted to help someone that has posted along the whole 'i'm running away' etc., where you have branched out. I understand what your saying. But I think this forum could use a Newbie section, although I think I would be thrown in there ASAP ha ha. But I guess your right, they are just dreams and nobody will really go out there attempt the feat, or at least I hope not. And I never went back to look at the outcome of what those people said in response or if they ever did, only because I'd rather not be involved with someones life who I don't even know. I'm all for helping, but I guess you really can't with some of these people.

[cowgirlup]

"The problem is that many people on fourms are there to feed their own need, to boost their own self image and show their superior knowledge."

Generally the few who are on a forum just for their own ego boost start that way from post #1. They are the big expert in everything and they joined the forum to set everyone straight. They don't usually stick around when everyone doesn't bow down to their superior knowledge and agree with them. Occasionally they will rejoin a forum under a different user name to give themselves an attaboy.


For most people including me the need that gets fed is social. I don't always have much to say but I like hanging out with fun people that have similar interests. And if you can't find those people in your real community you can find them online. :)

[Batch]

In my opinion, some people do come across as if they were almost waiting to yell a newbie that they didn't know anything. Sometimes you can predict who will respond with an almost critical attack.

Rick and Crash I almost always agree with how the respond. Though sometimes I think that maybe even these two are conditioned to responding and it sometimes comes off like "really we have to type this response again."

I was a newbie, member, senior member, moderator and administrator at several unrelated forums. One of the first things that you would see chimed in over and over was READ! READ! READ! Ad freakin nauseum. It added nothing to the content except post counts. I never liked the canned responses or the followers that post the same thing. You either add to the conversation or detract. Adding a little humor is adding to the conversation. But, if the humor is all at the OP's expense and he is a newbie is that really cool?

Specifically, the response to newbies I like the most is the polite welcome with the request that they make an introduction and give us some details about themselves so that we can better tailor our responses towards your needs or how ever it was worded exactly. Then if you can't get down off your high horse to help them let one of the newer members who recently learned respond.

[Rick]

the response to newbies I like the most is the polite welcome with the request that they make an introduction and give us some details about themselves so that we can better tailor our responses towards your needs or how ever it was worded exactly.
As you know, we did for a long time. Or tried to. I will only speak for myself but it seemed the proper thing to do. If I walked into your camp I would try to be polite by greeting you, introducing myself and tell you a bit about myself. Same in a business setting. Same at church. Same at almost any place I can think of. Except here. For some reason the was an uproar about asking for the simplest of information to determine how we should respond when certain questions are asked. Need to know about that weapon? Are you 12 or 21? It makes a difference. So we stopped. Now we're too harsh on newbies.


Though sometimes I think that maybe even these two are conditioned to responding and it sometimes comes off like "really we have to type this response again."
I do often feel that way when it's the "I want to run off into the wilderness" nonsense or some tin foil hat thing. It's like a "DOH" moment. So guilty as charged on that one.

[JPGreco]

You make a good point, and I respect what your saying. I have not personally attempted to help someone that has posted along the whole 'i'm running away' etc., where you have branched out. I understand what your saying. But I think this forum could use a Newbie section, although I think I would be thrown in there ASAP ha ha. But I guess your right, they are just dreams and nobody will really go out there attempt the feat, or at least I hope not. And I never went back to look at the outcome of what those people said in response or if they ever did, only because I'd rather not be involved with someones life who I don't even know. I'm all for helping, but I guess you really can't with some of these people.

Its not actually a lock down or anything forced upon any member. The point of the section is for a safe zone. Basically for new members to get acclimated to the forum. A lot of dumb stuff is posted in it on my other forum, but things like "goodluck with that" wouldn't really be allowed. Rather the newb in question would get a basic response (could be like a form letter response) informing him of the errors of his "idea" and to leave it alone. They would be told to search for it and then the thread would be locked immediately. It helps clean up the forum and actually helps find people who are serious about it or have training and such. Also saves everyone else time. The draw back tends to be that newbies still don't like the response or being told to search and they definitely don't like their thread locked... lol

However, if they post anywhere else, they are free game...

[BENESSE]

As you know, we did for a long time. Or tried to. I will only speak for myself but it seemed the proper thing to do. If I walked into your camp I would try to be polite by greeting you, introducing myself and tell you a bit about myself. Same in a business setting. Same at church. Same at almost any place I can think of. Except here. For some reason the was an uproar about asking for the simplest of information to determine how we should respond when certain questions are asked. Need to know about that weapon? Are you 12 or 21? It makes a difference. So we stopped. Now we're too harsh on newbies.

Seems like the squeakiest wheels tend to influence change around here but a proper introduction is one of those things that should be non-negotiable. Like good manners.

[oldtrap59]

Back in the day you never entered another's camp without calling out. Iffin ya did in most cases ya better go in low cause the lead might well fly. In a camp such as we have here you may well think of the introduction process as calling out before walking into the camp. I see alot of new members that come in full of questions and answers that haven't done this simple thing. I agree with Ms. B. A proper introduction should non-negotiable and a hey I'm here ain't what I mean. When I first came in the forum I think most newbies gave some info on themselves. Lately I don't think that's the case. ( those that have thankyou) My point being that if a newbie is asked to give some background, I don't think that's a reason to get their britches in a wad. I for one think this group isn't at all hard on newbies. Iffin ya think so check out some of the other sites on this grand internet. I've been in a few that either wouldn't talk to a new person at all or pretty much pushed em back out the door like they had a fungus. I'm here because this group welcomed me and has put up with me for some time now. If ya want information this is the place to be. If ya want to be mollycoddled it might not. But then life is tough and survivial can be tougher. My .02 worth. Oh yeah. Is this really where the OP started us?

Oldtrap

[crashdive123]

As you know, we did for a long time. Or tried to. I will only speak for myself but it seemed the proper thing to do. If I walked into your camp I would try to be polite by greeting you, introducing myself and tell you a bit about myself. Same in a business setting. Same at church. Same at almost any place I can think of. Except here. For some reason the was an uproar about asking for the simplest of information to determine how we should respond when certain questions are asked. Need to know about that weapon? Are you 12 or 21? It makes a difference. So we stopped. Now we're too harsh on newbies.


Oh goodness - I certainly won't forget that kerfuffle. The funny thing about that (although there wasn't much funny at the time) is that most of those that were protesting so vehemently against the practice have since left. I suppose that some people just like to complain - when you give them what they want and they have nothing left to complain about they search elsewhere for a place to complain.

[crashdive123]

In my opinion, some people do come across as if they were almost waiting to yell a newbie that they didn't know anything. Sometimes you can predict who will respond with an almost critical attack.

Rick and Crash I almost always agree with how the respond. Though sometimes I think that maybe even these two are conditioned to responding and it sometimes comes off like "really we have to type this response again."

I was a newbie, member, senior member, moderator and administrator at several unrelated forums. One of the first things that you would see chimed in over and over was READ! READ! READ! Ad freakin nauseum. It added nothing to the content except post counts. I never liked the canned responses or the followers that post the same thing. You either add to the conversation or detract. Adding a little humor is adding to the conversation. But, if the humor is all at the OP's expense and he is a newbie is that really cool?

Specifically, the response to newbies I like the most is the polite welcome with the request that they make an introduction and give us some details about themselves so that we can better tailor our responses towards your needs or how ever it was worded exactly. Then if you can't get down off your high horse to help them let one of the newer members who recently learned respond.

Guilty on occasion as well. I've noticed that some folks get upset if nobody responds to one of their posts, which is sometimes the case if: (a) nobody has an answer, or (b) nobody has an interest. In the case of (a) I often respond with "somebody will have an answer" so that they don't feel like they are falling into the (b) category.

[Sarge47]

Seems like the squeakiest wheels tend to influence change around here but a proper introduction is one of those things that should be non-negotiable. Like good manners.

Maybe I'm a bit harsh, but not only do I agree with Ms. B. on this, I don't give any info without an intro. If the Newbie makes a fuss and refuses then I refuse to go any further and start to suspect that they are a troll. I also agree with those on here about the practice of calling out before you enter a camp. It shows respect and is the proper thing to do.

As for coming on here and talking about going out into the woods to get away from society on a more permanent basis, Perhaps it could be handled differently. Some possible answers:

1.) In my experienced opinion that is not a feasible option. Places like that no longer exist.

2.) I don't know of any places like that but wish I did, I'd beat you to them!

3.) Why do you feel this way?

4.) I'm sorry, but without a proper intro I'm unable to answer your request.

You get the idea. :nod:

[wholsomback]

Well I don't feel that a person should get uptight if someone asks them to clarify there question or opinion about anything.Also a thing to remember is this is a forum where some if not most of the things we discuss have an eliment of danger to them and could be life threatening.So to ask if someone is of a proper age and mental stability to discern this information should not be offensive but to a child.We might be constrewd as old fogies(plural)but we are only trying to keep others who have not built up the mental awareness of there own mortality from attempting something that could be life ending.Remember survival is what it says SURVIVAL! Under no circumstance should anyone attempt it just to see if they have the nack cause it could be your last attempt.In my time in the Marines I did the survival training courses because they were required to train us in how to survive on our own,in combat situations.Not for fun because nothing about survival is fun,when you get down to it it sucks.Yes I know there goes what would be constrewd as an EGO trip,NO it's just the truth.If your EGO can't get past that then here is the cold hard truth as was once told to me by a Gunny that lived through Guadal Canal.If you think you know it all you will suffer,if you think you've seen it all you will suffer and if you think you've done it all you will truly be dead by mourning.I don't stroke an ego I just have a little knowledge under certain perameters that I don't mind passing on to others,and learn from others on this site I have.If that makes me an egomaniac or a troll so be it.I don't get to post much cause life enters and takes up most of my time but those that have the maturity level of an adult will understand this post and those who don't will get all teary eyed and cry for hours.Now that's not a personal attack to anyone or directed at anyone,sometimes you have to ask questions before you answer them cause wouldn't you feel really bad if your post was used by a kid and it killed or maimed him/her.Now that's not Ego it's just the world we live in.I have 5 kids so you go figure where I come from.

[Sourdough]

Well I don't feel that a person should get uptight if someone asks them to clarify there question or opinion about anything.Also a thing to remember is this is a forum where some if not most of the things we discuss have an eliment of danger to them and could be life threatening.So to ask if someone is of a proper age and mental stability to discern this information should not be offensive but to a child.We might be constrewd as old fogies(plural)but we are only trying to keep others who have not built up the mental awareness of there own mortality from attempting something that could be life ending.Remember survival is what it says SURVIVAL! Under no circumstance should anyone attempt it just to see if they have the nack cause it could be your last attempt.In my time in the Marines I did the survival training courses because they were required to train us in how to survive on our own,in combat situations.Not for fun because nothing about survival is fun,when you get down to it it sucks.Yes I know there goes what would be constrewd as an EGO trip,NO it's just the truth.If your EGO can't get past that then here is the cold hard truth as was once told to me by a Gunny that lived through Guadal Canal.If you think you know it all you will suffer,if you think you've seen it all you will suffer and if you think you've done it all you will truly be dead by mourning.I don't stroke an ego I just have a little knowledge under certain perameters that I don't mind passing on to others,and learn from others on this site I have.If that makes me an egomaniac or a troll so be it.I don't get to post much cause life enters and takes up most of my time but those that have the maturity level of an adult will understand this post and those who don't will get all teary eyed and cry for hours.Now that's not a personal attack to anyone or directed at anyone,sometimes you have to ask questions before you answer them cause wouldn't you feel really bad if your post was used by a kid and it killed or maimed him/her.Now that's not Ego it's just the world we live in.I have 5 kids so you go figure where I come from.


WOW........I can't read that........Please use paragraphs an spaces after the end of a sentence.

[hunter63]

.....or just hit "enter" once in a while....Thanks

[wholsomback]

See there you go.Encouragement.

[Wildthang]

Well if we don't change at all, everything is still OK. There are some great people on here that are very knowleagable on wilderness survival and this place is my favorite forum. And we do come down hard on people that want to go out and do stupid things. Do they deserve it, probably so, should we do that, probably not.
Like I said before, I dont know where the majic line lies, but my thoughts are that is a new member posts a thread about going out and doing something absolutely stupid, we should try to tell them why they shouldn't do it, and be polite enough to not hurt their feelings. I think when we make them feel stupid, that is when they will decide to move on and no longer be a member of this forum.
I have seen some of our members pretty much lambaste new members that really dont understand the wilderness, and I feel that we should be a little easier on those people. That would give us more time to get to know them, and convince them that they really do need to learn a lot of skills before they take off to the woods.
After a person has been a member for a good while, they should be able to take criticism if needed, but I think new members should be given a little more consideration because they dont know us, and do not understand our individual personalities.
And yes they should introduce themselves and follow the rules, but I think there are still a lot of people that are not familiar with forum rules, and really don't know the importance of them. I feel as a forum, we need to gain all of the new members we can because the more members we have, the more successful the forum becomes.
We are not going to gain and keep new members when we give them the impression that we think they are stupid newbs, and communicate with them in a demeaning manner. And I know that happens on here!
Yeah the trolls need to go, but I feel we do not give a lot of new members the chance to get used to our various personalities, and basically the temperment of the forum in general. I think in a lot of cases they think Oh Crappola, I just jumped into a hornets nest and I'm not going back.

[wholsomback]

Just like my grandfather used to say"there is no stupid questions",but sometimes the answers you get from some don't mean too much.

Let the salt roll off your back and keep going.

Oh and by the way "did I use the enter button enough this time?'

And I didn't think I was back in school,sometimes I get on a roll and forget literacy for those edjimacated ones.

[hunter63]

Outstanding, old eyes get tired....thanks man....ya got a lot of good things to say, just hard to read....LOL

[Batch]

Guilty on occasion as well. I've noticed that some folks get upset if nobody responds to one of their posts, which is sometimes the case if: (a) nobody has an answer, or (b) nobody has an interest. In the case of (a) I often respond with "somebody will have an answer" so that they don't feel like they are falling into the (b) category.

To be clear my naming you and Rick was meant as a commendation not a condemnation. You two were outstanding in my mind in how you handled new members. There are way more good and helpful members here than not and that is the reason I check in here so frequently.

[crashdive123]

Gothcha. Thanks.

[Rick]

I actually took it that way. Of course I take name calling as a compliment, too, so.......

[Crabapple Plum]

As the Newbie, let me stick my foot in the bucket. I joined after reading and liking it. I recognize many names from elsewhere, some I haven't seen for years from other forums that have degraded badly.

This forum seems to be about imparting knowledge, being responsible and being an adult. I like that.

When Feelings become more important than Knowledge, the end result is coddling ignorance and it IS about ego. THEIRS. That's the way it became in the public schools, and that's the way many formerly good forums, and society at large are now. Must not offend anyone by providing knowledge lest you be accused of being judgemental, a Know it All, pot-stirrer or troll. No, they don't want knowledge, they don't want to learn, they want a group whinefest and be told how wonderful and smart they are.

Those of us who teach want to teach, not coddle. Sure, we can build our information lower for those who need it lower and want to learn. No problem. If I had time and desire for coddling ignorance group whinefests and toddler tantrums, I'd get a job at Sunshine and Rainbows Daycare.

[farmerjane]

As a "newby" myself, If I knew it all I would not be on here looking for answers or asking questions. The reason I ask, it that I am ignorant of the thing in which I search for. In my experience when I talk to someone who is more intellegent than myself on a certain topic, thier response is usually one of "well duh....that is simple" because to them they have been there done that and it seems elementary to them. I dont automaticly assume they are putting me down for being ignorant only that they are well beyond that level of thinking on that subject. If I asked someone and they responded with "I hadnt thought of that, but if it were me....." I would probably take the advice in stride and ask someone else who is more knowledgeable to either get a different opion or to confirm my first advice. If you come across as "that is so simple" then I know that you are more experienced and I fell more confident in following the advice.

This is just my "newby" opion........please dont try to spare my feelings at the cost of my education. Im a big girl, I can take. What I cant take is being ignorant. Being offended is a choice, I choose education to being offended. Knowledge can save my life and that of my families. My poor attitute can not.

This is just my opionon.

[Rick]

There is never any reason to berate someone for trying to learn. A reasonable, honest question should receive an intelligent, understandable response. Trolls fall outside of this realm, however.

[Sarge47]

Farmer Jane, Crabapple Plum, the thing that helps identify a troll is their refusal to do an intro or give out any info on themselves while expecting members on here to advise them on the questions they ask. You ladies gave such great intros that I would never consider you trolls...just don't ask to see the hong! We save that for trolls! :creepy:

[LowKey]

Forums and the internet in general are no longer new. These days newbs would do well to read and check out the culture of a forum before diving in feet first. Especially in a forum that has been around for years. But sometimes there is that all-consuming desire to have their question answered now, the need for instant gratification, that all common sense and manners disappear.

As for ego-stroking, not for me, not here. I save that for a forum where I actually work in the field the forum is about. Here, I'm just happy to be able to contribute when I can. Or maybe ask a question or two once in a while.

[grokh5499]

Hey guys, another newbie comment! It doesn't take that long to get the feel for a forum. After just a few threads anyone digging deep enough is going to see the "suggestion" to introduce. Like farmerjane, I can take constructive criticism, But I do find it funny when the trolls can't take a hint.

[Rick]

I do find it funny when the trolls can't take a hint.

We do, too. It's kinda like Bop-A-Mole.

[hunter63]

LOL....Yeah, Good luck with that....

[farmerjane]

Farmer Jane, Crabapple Plum, the thing that helps identify a troll is their refusal to do an intro or give out any info on themselves while expecting members on here to advise them on the questions they ask. You ladies gave such great intros that I would never consider you trolls...just don't ask to see the hong! We save that for trolls! :creepy:

Unfortunately, I think I ran across it while reading old threads. See Im Reading, Reading, Reading, (ha ha) So get ready for my questions.:smartass:

[Ted]

Well all I know, is when you ask a question on this forum, you immediately get a whole lot of matter of fact answers and advice, and a lot of times, the tone is close to being stated in a demeaning way. This is what a new member percieves because that is how it felt when I joined. Fortunately I have stuck around long enough to learn that the members here are just trying to give good advice, and help others even when the truth hurts.
Many of the members here are very knowleagable, and have a huge amount of experience, so once you get to know them, you get used to it. I think that the survivor breed of people on here are a little brash because most people that love the wilderness, nature, and places with few people, are also the type that have little tolerance for other people. Not always but in general!
So in my humble opinion, we should go alittle easier on new members, and poeple that have the dreams of living in the wilderness, and getting away from society. Most of them really dont understand the challenges, so when we lambaste them with our brash opinions, I am afraid thet instead of really listening to us, they will simply join another forum where some people may encourage their foolish dreams, or simply write us off and a bunch of know it all's, and go ahead with their plans.
So where is the majic line, I really dont know. What I do know is that when I first joined, I felt like I was surrounded by the biggest bunch of critics I have ever encountered. Of course I feel differently now, but to new members, we really come off in an extremely brash attitude because we either go totally off topic and thread jack a thread, or we more or less insinuate that they are dummasses, simply by the tone in which we reply.

Right on Wildthang...You took the words I've been holding back, for quite sometime, right out of me mouth!!!!

Really,... sometimes you guys really PMO with the way you treat the folks that just want to run off into the wilderness. I for one was one of these people and little more undertsand from a site called Wilderness Survival would be expected! Not everyone thinks the modern world is that great and some of us hate it with a passion that is irrivesable. For what ever reason we need get get out!

For years I was riticuled be everyone. Family. freinds, school counselers all called me crazy, and told me I should pull my head otta me azz and wake up! Finally at 32yrs old my family got together to help me, and had me sent to the nevous hospital for evaluation. 2weeks later they told my family there's nothing at all wrong with me, I was different and they should just accept it! They told me I should move to the PNW...
lots of folks just like me out there.

Just one more thing and I'll shut up. I asked the doc, I talked to 5 of them, the evaluation was very thurough, "So am I crazy doc?" She smiled a said "Ted, you are one of the saneist people I've ever met" I cried like a little girl....never heard that before.

[Celticwarrior]

Nobody wants to PO anyone or drive them away from the site. But when people come on and naively say "I want to chuck it all and run off to the woods", there is something deeply wrong in their lives that they are running away FROM, and they really need to deal with that rather than put themselves into a dangerous, likely deadly, situation out in the boondocks. No amount of advice or on-the-fly training you get from the internet or a forum like this will keep you alive out there in the wilderness indefinitely. It might stop you from freezing to death, or tell you how to recognize a dangerous or edible plant, or some other tidbit, but living out in the wild with little or no real world survival experience is asking to die out there.

Just like Chris McCandless and others, a vague idea about backpacking and hiking, with a little woodslore and hunting experience is in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM going to keep you alive out there. Nature is unforgiving and cruel, and doesn't care about your problems at work, or with your love life, or how much you really wanted to be an engineer, or whatever. It doesn't care that you thought you knew enough to live out there, and it won't give you any quarter when the storms roll in, or the snows fall, or the wolves and bears and pumas come sniffing around for a meal. It won't stop you from drinking crystal clear water teeming with deadly pathogens, or keep you from building your shelter under a widowmaker deadfall.

It doesn't give a d@mn about you. But WE do! We don't want to see someone go out there half-cocked and get killed. We don't want to read an article or a book about your tragic life and death out in the wilderness. WE want to tell you the truth, right up front, that you are 99% certainly NOT ready to go out and live like Jerimiah Johnson. We want it to be a wakeup call, so that you know it is DEADLY SERIOUS.

Most of us have been in the woods for decades, on and off. We camp, hunt, hike, fish, backpack, and live for days or weeks out there, in all sorts of weather and environments. Some of us have military experience, and have taken training in extreme places specifically for the purpose of staying alive regardless of where you are sent. We KNOW what it is like out there, and want to pass that knowledge on to you, as a newb, to keep you from making mistakes we have made or choices that are likely going to get you killed. We don't want to be @$$holes about it, and we don't want to hurt people's feelings, but sometimes you need a tap on the shoulder, sometimes you need a swift kick in the @ss, and sometimes you need to be smacked in the head and asked "Are you outta your MIND?".

Wanting to go out and ENJOY the wilderness is one thing, a short term experiment and build a cabin or live like a mountain man for example. When someone says they want to PERMANENTLY leave civilization and go live in the woods, we know there is something seriously WRONG and if we don't say something, this person might go wandering off and DIE. No one here wants to be responsible for that.

When people say "Good Luck With That", that means, "Goodbye, walking corpse. I hope you have a will." It is usually said when someone makes it clear that they don't want to be talked out of this decision, and the only thing they want to hear is that they will be just fine and life will be good living out there in the brush with the squirrels and rabbits. They don't want to hear that they will likely die of one or another horrible things, or they will be running back to civilization within a month because they ran out of all the things they brought with them and have no idea how to do without or make do with things they could make out there. People today are NOT aboriginal tribesmen, with elders teaching them from birth how to do all the things they need to survive. They aren't trained by people who have DONE all of these things all their lives. They don't have the support of an entire village of other natives who have generations of wisdom, who have multiple hunter/gatherers, who have tons of stores supplies, and who have many people to do the work necessary to stay alive which one person alone will NEVER be able to do. Someone who goes out to live wild, all by their lonesome, isn't going to last for long. They simply lack the tools, the knowledge, the WISDOM and the support to stay out there for very long. Even the old hermits in the deserts don't stay in their caves forever. They come into towns when they get sick, or to dumpster dive, or to go to a shelter when the winds get cold and the arthritis gets too bad. No man is an island. No matter how bad things are here, where you THINK it is somehow better to just run away, TRUST ME it can be a WHOLE LOT WORSE out there! We just try to spare people the pain and suffering of finding that out for themselves.

IF you think you are ready to chuck it all and go live somewhere in the wilderness, try it for a month, with a backup plan and let people know where you are. Check in with them regularly to let them know you aren't dead. Learn from your mistakes about what skills you lack and what you need. But DON'T just come here and think that a couple of posts on building a fire or making a shelter are going to be enough to save you when you get out there by yourself and run into trouble. A lot of people die out there every year. Don't be one of them.

[MiddleWolf]

I've learned a lot from this and the other 2 forums I go to. Not once has it come across to me that those giving the advice or answering a question are stroking their egos. I guess it's the fact that most of them have actually done the things they advise on and that's different then saying "well maybe you could do this or that, I don't know". It's the fact that most of the knowledge passed on here is based on real experience or they're doing a real good job of faking it. But, with the advent of digital photography and you tube, they can feed their egos if they want, they've backed up what they say. And we've seen the ones that don't.

[Rick]

Wait a minute...there are other forums?!

[Sarge47]

When I was 21 I had a best friend who decided that 2 of my brothers and I were going to go "looking for gold" with him in two places, Arizona's "Lost Dutchman Mind," and Alaska, which was still open to homesteading at that time . He laid down all kinds of equipment lists, mostly a crap-load of weapons, bought a White's Metal Detector, and bought every type of "treasure magazine" that came out as study material. He never set foot out the door, and died a few years ago from Bone Cancer. He'd even bought some "gold-bearing land" in Colorado but never left Iowa to visit it. Looking back I can say that I sincerely believe that if we would have went to those places that he 1st wanted to go we'd be lucky to still be alive! It was all a dream, but reality wasn't involved in most of it.

I, to, have a distaste for society, only family comes into my home, mainly because of my wife's health problems. I only have a couple of close friends outside of family. If I could I'd love to have a nice home somewhere off the beaten path with my own way of generating all of my electricity, planting, hunting, and fishing for my food; and so on. However, even with all of that, if I were 35 years younger I still wouldn't go out into the wilderness to live alone. Running away never solves anything. CW is right on the money, if a Newbie comes on here looking for advice to run away form their problems I can't help them! Yes, our pioneer forefathers lived that kind of life, then set about making progress to make that hard life easier. Something to think about. :cool2:

[Ted]

Nobody wants to PO anyone or drive them away from the site. But when people come on and naively say "I want to chuck it all and run off to the woods", there is something deeply wrong in their lives that they are running away FROM, and they really need to deal with that rather than put themselves into a dangerous, likely deadly, situation out in the boondocks. No amount of advice or on-the-fly training you get from the internet or a forum like this will keep you alive out there in the wilderness indefinitely. It might stop you from freezing to death, or tell you how to recognize a dangerous or edible plant, or some other tidbit, but living out in the wild with little or no real world survival experience is asking to die out there.

Just like Chris McCandless and others, a vague idea about backpacking and hiking, with a little woodslore and hunting experience is in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM going to keep you alive out there. Nature is unforgiving and cruel, and doesn't care about your problems at work, or with your love life, or how much you really wanted to be an engineer, or whatever. It doesn't care that you thought you knew enough to live out there, and it won't give you any quarter when the storms roll in, or the snows fall, or the wolves and bears and pumas come sniffing around for a meal. It won't stop you from drinking crystal clear water teeming with deadly pathogens, or keep you from building your shelter under a widowmaker deadfall.

It doesn't give a d@mn about you. But WE do! We don't want to see someone go out there half-cocked and get killed. We don't want to read an article or a book about your tragic life and death out in the wilderness. WE want to tell you the truth, right up front, that you are 99% certainly NOT ready to go out and live like Jerimiah Johnson. We want it to be a wakeup call, so that you know it is DEADLY SERIOUS.

Most of us have been in the woods for decades, on and off. We camp, hunt, hike, fish, backpack, and live for days or weeks out there, in all sorts of weather and environments. Some of us have military experience, and have taken training in extreme places specifically for the purpose of staying alive regardless of where you are sent. We KNOW what it is like out there, and want to pass that knowledge on to you, as a newb, to keep you from making mistakes we have made or choices that are likely going to get you killed. We don't want to be @$$holes about it, and we don't want to hurt people's feelings, but sometimes you need a tap on the shoulder, sometimes you need a swift kick in the @ss, and sometimes you need to be smacked in the head and asked "Are you outta your MIND?".

Wanting to go out and ENJOY the wilderness is one thing, a short term experiment and build a cabin or live like a mountain man for example. When someone says they want to PERMANENTLY leave civilization and go live in the woods, we know there is something seriously WRONG and if we don't say something, this person might go wandering off and DIE. No one here wants to be responsible for that.

When people say "Good Luck With That", that means, "Goodbye, walking corpse. I hope you have a will." It is usually said when someone makes it clear that they don't want to be talked out of this decision, and the only thing they want to hear is that they will be just fine and life will be good living out there in the brush with the squirrels and rabbits. They don't want to hear that they will likely die of one or another horrible things, or they will be running back to civilization within a month because they ran out of all the things they brought with them and have no idea how to do without or make do with things they could make out there. People today are NOT aboriginal tribesmen, with elders teaching them from birth how to do all the things they need to survive. They aren't trained by people who have DONE all of these things all their lives. They don't have the support of an entire village of other natives who have generations of wisdom, who have multiple hunter/gatherers, who have tons of stores supplies, and who have many people to do the work necessary to stay alive which one person alone will NEVER be able to do. Someone who goes out to live wild, all by their lonesome, isn't going to last for long. They simply lack the tools, the knowledge, the WISDOM and the support to stay out there for very long. Even the old hermits in the deserts don't stay in their caves forever. They come into towns when they get sick, or to dumpster dive, or to go to a shelter when the winds get cold and the arthritis gets too bad. No man is an island. No matter how bad things are here, where you THINK it is somehow better to just run away, TRUST ME it can be a WHOLE LOT WORSE out there! We just try to spare people the pain and suffering of finding that out for themselves.

IF you think you are ready to chuck it all and go live somewhere in the wilderness, try it for a month, with a backup plan and let people know where you are. Check in with them regularly to let them know you aren't dead. Learn from your mistakes about what skills you lack and what you need. But DON'T just come here and think that a couple of posts on building a fire or making a shelter are going to be enough to save you when you get out there by yourself and run into trouble. A lot of people die out there every year. Don't be one of them.

I hear you and understand completely! But not eveyone who wants to do this has issues! For some it's a calling an instinctual drive if you will. The right way to live!!!!

They're looking for support and freindship, like minded people , a tribe to learn from! Instead of "Good luck with that." How about "Welcome, it's more than possible with proper training, but it is illegal if you don't own the land and you will still need to pay your taxes!!!! Not to mention its very difficult all alone because you will get lonley!"

Besides no one man knows what another man can tolerate, or the length he is willing to go to find balance in his own life.

If your last paragragh is directed directly at me, read all my post starting at #1 I hate repeating myself.

[crashdive123]

I hear you and understand completely! But not eveyone who wants to do this has issues! For some it's a calling an instinctual drive if you will. The right way to live!!!!

They're looking for support and freindship, like minded people , a tribe to learn from! Instead of "Good luck with that." How about "Welcome, it's more than possible with proper training, but it is illegal if you don't own the land and you will still need to pay your taxes!!!! Not to mention its very difficult all alone because you will get lonley!"

Besides no one man knows what another man can tolerate, or the length he is willing to go to find balance in his own life.

If your last paragragh is directed directly at me, read all my post starting at #1 I hate repeating myself.

Ted - I would submit to you that those that have come here as you have described have received all of the support and encouragement that they can handle. It is when they come here telling us all how society sucks (maybe it does for them) and that they are going to run off wit no experience, no equipment, no time to learn and no tolerance for solid and sound advice.

Those that are willing to listen do get solid advice. Those that came here to tell us that none of us know what we're talking about and we're jealous because we want to squash their dreams get what they get.

[Rick]

And I hate to break this to you but no one here can P you off. You can only allow yourself to become P off. They are your emotions and as such they are your responsibility. I would also submit that whatever words were posted is only part of the story. Generally, folks get upset by their own thoughts about a subject. Words are just words. The only power they have is what you give them.

[Sarge47]

Ted, I believe that you are somebody who could live the same life as Sourdough and Wild Woman; but that's because of your experience and knowledge. I have never put you in the same class as some of these newbies that come on here with their unrealistic and immature ideology. I will never "enable" somebody to go out and break the law by trespassing on Private property or violate the laws set in place in the State Parks and National Forests. You might remember those two guys in Canada that came on here years back bragging about how they were going to go out into the Boreal forest in October for 30 days with nothing more than their knives and the clothes on their backs! Almost every member at that time tried to talk sense into them but they refused to listen. They went out, and lasted 15 days before they crawled back home, wet, hungry, and discouraged. There is a right way to do what you're talking about and a wrong way. Most of the times we get the latter. :ohmy:

[Celticwarrior]

I hear you and understand completely! But not eveyone who wants to do this has issues! For some it's a calling an instinctual drive if you will. The right way to live!!!!

They're looking for support and freindship, like minded people , a tribe to learn from! Instead of "Good luck with that." How about "Welcome, it's more than possible with proper training, but it is illegal if you don't own the land and you will still need to pay your taxes!!!! Not to mention its very difficult all alone because you will get lonley!"

Besides no one man knows what another man can tolerate, or the length he is willing to go to find balance in his own life.

If your last paragragh is directed directly at me, read all my post starting at #1 I hate repeating myself.


Nope, not speaking directly to you there. Just using the generic 'you' to mean those folks reading the post who were in that category of thinking that heading off into the Great Wide Open would be a feasible way to deal with their problems. As to knowing what a man is willing to do or endure? No, I don't know that. I don't have those kinds of omniscient powers, but knowing what Nature is capable of doing and knowing what surviving in it can entail in some of the worst environments I have ever seen, I can say that most folks, as in 99.89%, won't live through them without a support staff and a warehouse full of gear. Living through a bad night in the woods, or a stormy couple of days huddled in your car, is nothing compared to looking out at an unforgiving wasteland and realizing there is nowhere to go and no one coming to help you, day after day after day. For every guy like Dick Proennike who can go out and build an Alaska cabin and fill it with homemade goodies all by himself, there are hundreds of thousands of folks who would simply not survive a month up there in a similar situation.

[Sarge47]

For every guy like Dick Proennike who can go out and build an Alaska cabin and fill it with homemade goodies all by himself, there are hundreds of thousands of folks who would simply not survive a month up there in a similar situation.

A reminder that even DP had to call it quits when he got to old to continue. He came back to the "lower 48" and spent his last days in a nursing home. It catches up to all of us. CW, I would have to say that I would more than likely be one of those in the 99,98% class! :huh:

[Ted]

Guys, guys, guys , don't get me wrong this place is great! But I have on more than one occasion seen the site rip into people, and then they where gone! They don't stick around long enough ,like Wildthag did to reilize it's just tough love!!!!

Rick, if words are just words and nobodys responsible for the way your words make them feel, why do you suppose it's against forum rules to talk politics and religion? Chris doesn't want anybody to get PO'd maybe?

Nobody wants to be made fun of or riticuled, and there are some members, long time members that just sit back and wait for the chance. I've had it done to me! SD's not one though!

[Rick]

Chris doesn't want anybody to get PO'd maybe?

That's exactly right. He doesn't. But that doesn't negate the fact that the listener has the power to give words authority or not. It doesn't matter what you call me. If I choose not to take offense then I've chosen not to give your words power and to not give you any authority over me. Folks find it a lot easier to blame someone else so you hear the comment, "He made me mad." That only occurs if you give up responsibility for your own emotions. If anyone cares to follow that advice they will find life a whole lot more enjoyable. Since they won't allow folks to "make them mad" they'll be a lot happier.

As for "ripping into people", I suppose that depends on your definition but I think the mods are pretty good about controlling name calling and personal attacks. One of us usually steps in and reminds folks to challenge the idea not the person, ask folks to agree to disagree or even lock threads if necessary. All bets are off on trolls.

[Sarge47]

Ted, you may have noticed that the tone of the forum has changed lately. Take this last troll, for example. Members on here gave him every opportunity to clarify what he was looking for. He not only ignored many of the questions I and others asked of him, but then acted like a know-it-all and HE ripped into the membership here. Nobody had ripped into him at all, but instead gave him sound advice regarding the questions that he asked, yet he chose to ignore the answers because it wasn't what he wanted to hear. Posting the response "good luck with that" is not "ripping into people." It's a polite way of ending your side of the conversation WITHOUT ripping into them. You may have noticed some things in the past, but the site has grown beyond that. Members on here will oft-times totally disagree with one another on some topics. A good example is both the theater shooting in Denver and the "casting call" for the reality show regarding homesteading. Several members, two were other mods disagreed with me on my viewpoint of these two topics, yet we conducted ourselves like adults, respected the other person's viewpoint even though we may have totally disagreed with it, and left the name-calling to the politicians. We still respect the right of each other to have an opinion. However how foolish would it be for me to ask you, for example, a question on knife making, then berate you for you're answer? You have far more knowledge on that subject than I do. And if I already know enough to think your answer was incorrect why did I bother to ask in the 1st place? Again, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about something. Fighting with the more experienced members on here is NOT the right way. :boxer:

[wildWoman]

For every guy like Dick Proennike who can go out and build an Alaska cabin and fill it with homemade goodies all by himself, there are hundreds of thousands of folks who would simply not survive a month up there in a similar situation.

I don't think so. It honestly is not a big deal to build a cabin and furniture, and I don't understand this myth about it being particularly difficult in Alaska. In the winter, you just put more clothes on. At Proennekes time, help was a radio call away. Nowadays, you press your ELT.

If Proenneke had gone there without a clue of how to use tools, how to fish and hunt, the willingness to work, and without the buddies who helped him out big time by flying gear and supplies in, he wouldn't have lasted a month either. So all that enabled him (and the other bush people I know - and they are still out there, it's just that not everyone writes a book about it) to do it was:

-basic tool knowledge
-basic hunting and fishing skills
-a good work ethic
-a backup network of friends
-a place to do go do it (one huge challenge nowadays because it's extremly difficult to buy remote land out in the bush)
-money
-and most of all, enough desire and passion to go do it, and to do it right (leave the rose-tinted glasses at home and acquire the basic skills before you go).

IMO it's only the last point that prevents all those dreamers out there from putting their money where their mouth is. It's plain old scary to try something new, something that's not as common anymore as it was 100 years, heck even 50 years ago. But the rest of it all is really just common sense, the skills needed are totally basic and easy to acquire - if I can do it, anyone reading this right now can do it.

Here's some blogs of people who are out there doing it, have been doing it for years already, each in their own fashion:

http://thehappytrappers.blogspot.com/
http://wildernessdweller.ca/
http://www.nuktessli.ca/journal/index-annual-newsletters.html
http://manuelaz.blogspot.com/

[crashdive123]

@ WildWoman - I don't disagree with what you've written. The angst on this forum comes in from time to time when we get a new member that wants to run off with no gear, no experience and no plan. That being said, they expect advice on how to accomplish this venture.

For those that come here with a basic plan - they receive all of the advice and encouragement that they are willing to accept.

[wildWoman]

The angst on this forum comes in from time to time when we get a new member that wants to run off with no gear, no experience and no plan. That being said, they expect advice on how to accomplish this venture.

Oh I know and totally agree.
Just couldn't keep my mouth shut about the comparison to Dick Proennecke and making a home in the woods.

[Celticwarrior]

The biggest things Dick had going for him are exactly what we tell people who want to just run off half-cocked. He HAD a support network of people helping him (the neighbor who let him stay at his cabin while he built his, the guy who flew in his supplies all the time, his family back in the lower 48 who he stayed in contact with, etc.); He had prior experience in Alaska (he had been there often as a young man, he had also prepped a lot of stuff for his move the year before, etc.); and he had a lifetime of experience in using old fashioned hand tools and doing things himself, including making items from whatever he had on hand. His inventiveness and willingness to do whatever it took to survive were a big key to his success.

The other thing that differs him from many people who say they want to run off to the woods is that he came from a much less squemish time. If there was a bug in your water, you picked it out and continued drinking. If your bread had mold, you ripped that part off and continued to eat it. When it was 15 below outside, you were happy that your cabin was 40 degrees farenheit. Many people faced with even minor adversities will up and quit rather than deal with them and keep going.

I agree that nothing Dick did is superhuman or in any way out of the ability range of people today. Plenty of people go to remote areas and build a life that is simple and fulfilling. There is a BIG difference between someone with the knowledge, resources and skills to go out and homestead and someone who wants to play Jeremiah Johnson or Grizzly Adams out in the woods with just what they have in their packs. Two totally diffferent mindsets. My only comparison to DP was that he had a LOT of skills and was very self-sufficient going out there and building the life that he did. You have to be. I assume you are much the same way. You probably have a lot of skills and abilities that you take for granted as 'common sense', but that are anything BUT common. Not everyone possesses them, and the learning curve is steep. It took me a lot of years to learn things that I do every day in my homestead, and I am STILL learning. Trying to do that while you are struggling to survive out in the boonies in a primitive camp is not something I recommend to anyone without a well-thought out exit plan or a good support network of people who can help you with things that you personally don't know a lot about.

Someone like you survives and thrives on all the self-reliant things you do every day. Not everyone will be like that, especially those who are more dreamers than doers. Plenty of people want to run off to live a freer and less modern lifestyle, but very few are prepared for all that entails. It is a lifestyle, not just a pipe dream someone follows on a lark. You are more unique than you know, WildWoman.

[wildWoman]

CW, I mostly agree with what you're saying here.

I wrote my previous post to clarify that going to live and make an actual home out in the bush is not rocket science or out of reach of the average person's capabilities. IMO it's a totally different and seperate thing from "I wanna take my knife and go for x months into the bush, build a crude shelter, and spear rabbits and fish". I thought bringing up Dick Proenecke (who was not "surviving", he was living in the bush) and giving the impression that what he did is something the vast majority of people cannot do just isn't so, in my experience - I think most people don't want to actually do it.
As you say, you have to be a doer and not just a dreamer. But that applies to whatever people do - there will always be the ones who prefer to think, talk and dream about whatever lifestyle, and those who actually do it.

I'm absolutely with you on the survival-in-a-loincloth crowd, it just bugs me that frequently bush life (not survival!) is being portrayed as an almost unachievable feat when it's not. Maybe my view is somewhat skewed because I've been living up north for 15 years and people up here tend to be jacks and janes of all trades; there aren't very many services and that's working as a natural selection process of who can hack it, I guess.
You're right, it is a steep learning curve and I am always advocating people try to live simply somewhere semi-remote, but with road access for a least year to pick up more skills, also www.wwoof.org is an excellent way to gain just about all the necessary homesteading skills on the planet. But if you have all this:
-basic tool knowledge
-basic hunting and fishing skills
-a good work ethic
-a backup network of friends
-a place to do go do it (one huge challenge nowadays because it's extremly difficult to buy remote land out in the bush)
-money
-and most of all, enough desire and passion to go do it, and to do it right (leave the rose-tinted glasses at home and acquire the basic skills before you go),
IMO you're good to go.

I sidled up to bush life sideways and over a long period of years, partly because the books and documentaries out there harp on all the difficulties and the dangers. Maybe that's why it always bugs me when this comes up. I know now I could have done this even on my own. I'm all for waking people up to reality and discouraging the city slickers wanting to run off into the woods tomorrow and live off the land.
But at the same time, it should be possible to paint a reasonable picture of what bush life (not survival) is actually like. I find it too bad if people get the impression that you have to have this vast array of hard to come by skills. In my experience, the challenge is no greater than living anywhere else - if it's new to you, it's hard at first and you gotta learn stuff. Some things are fun, others aren't. If you screw up, you may die. That applies to the burbs and city as much as bush life, it's just different sets of risk factors and challenges.

[Wildthang]

CW, I mostly agree with what you're saying here.

I wrote my previous post to clarify that going to live and make an actual home out in the bush is not rocket science or out of reach of the average person's capabilities. IMO it's a totally different and seperate thing from "I wanna take my knife and go for x months into the bush, build a crude shelter, and spear rabbits and fish". I thought bringing up Dick Proenecke (who was not "surviving", he was living in the bush) and giving the impression that what he did is something the vast majority of people cannot do just isn't so, in my experience - I think most people don't want to actually do it.
As you say, you have to be a doer and not just a dreamer. But that applies to whatever people do - there will always be the ones who prefer to think, talk and dream about whatever lifestyle, and those who actually do it.

I'm absolutely with you on the survival-in-a-loincloth crowd, it just bugs me that frequently bush life (not survival!) is being portrayed as an almost unachievable feat when it's not. Maybe my view is somewhat skewed because I've been living up north for 15 years and people up here tend to be jacks and janes of all trades; there aren't very many services and that's working as a natural selection process of who can hack it, I guess.
You're right, it is a steep learning curve and I am always advocating people try to live simply somewhere semi-remote, but with road access for a least year to pick up more skills, also www.wwoof.org is an excellent way to gain just about all the necessary homesteading skills on the planet. But if you have all this:
-basic tool knowledge
-basic hunting and fishing skills
-a good work ethic
-a backup network of friends
-a place to do go do it (one huge challenge nowadays because it's extremly difficult to buy remote land out in the bush)
-money
-and most of all, enough desire and passion to go do it, and to do it right (leave the rose-tinted glasses at home and acquire the basic skills before you go),
IMO you're good to go.

I sidled up to bush life sideways and over a long period of years, partly because the books and documentaries out there harp on all the difficulties and the dangers. Maybe that's why it always bugs me when this comes up. I know now I could have done this even on my own. I'm all for waking people up to reality and discouraging the city slickers wanting to run off into the woods tomorrow and live off the land.
But at the same time, it should be possible to paint a reasonable picture of what bush life (not survival) is actually like. I find it too bad if people get the impression that you have to have this vast array of hard to come by skills. In my experience, the challenge is no greater than living anywhere else - if it's new to you, it's hard at first and you gotta learn stuff. Some things are fun, others aren't. If you screw up, you may die. That applies to the burbs and city as much as bush life, it's just different sets of risk factors and challenges.

Very true WW, you said it well. I think living in the wilderness is basically for people with loads of common sense, if you have that, you will figure it out!
I know a few people mostly guys, that have a hard time changing a light bulb because they have absolutely no common sense, and those are the types that have no business trying to live off the grid.
I admire people that live off the grid, and I use to think about moving off the grid myself, but as long as I can live to good life the way I am now, I am going to keep it up. Being a Jack of all trades myself, I am saving the off grid thing for if and when it becomes necessary. So I guess I just dont have the passion for that life right now, and will use my skills for when the SHTF or the economy crashes and makes it necessary.
The thing about people like you, is that if the economy does crash, you wont notice much of a difference and everybody else will be up the creek. For you, it will be simply life as usual and no big deal!

[wildWoman]

The thing about people like you, is that if the economy does crash, you wont notice much of a difference and everybody else will be up the creek. For you, it will be simply life as usual and no big deal!

That would be nice, but I doubt it. We still have to earn an income here and for example, in May the paper I used to write for laid off half of its staff, including me. So there went 95% of my income and I haven't replaced it yet.
I think we and a lot of other bush people wouldn't feel much of a difference if there was a short-term economic or whatever crash, say things back to "normal" in about a year. But we and everyone I know out in the woods all use fuel, run chainsaws, generators, skidoos, motorboats, buy dog food, gum boots, building supplies, food items like coffee, flour, pasta etc. So while we have more stuff stocked than town people, once that runs out, we'd have to adjust, too.
Entirely possibly, but still quite a change because even more things would have to be done by hand than now and our food supply would shift to plenty of potatoes (and I HATE potatoes!) and wild herb teas (game and fish would stay the same, but we'd have to shoot an extra moose for the dogs).

[hunter63]

That would be nice, but I doubt it. We still have to earn an income here and for example, in May the paper I used to write for laid off half of its staff, including me. So there went 95% of my income and I haven't replaced it yet.
I think we and a lot of other bush people wouldn't feel much of a difference if there was a short-term economic or whatever crash, say things back to "normal" in about a year. But we and everyone I know out in the woods all use fuel, run chainsaws, generators, skidoos, motorboats, buy dog food, gum boots, building supplies, food items like coffee, flour, pasta etc. So while we have more stuff stocked than town people, once that runs out, we'd have to adjust, too.
Entirely possibly, but still quite a change because even more things would have to be done by hand than now and our food supply would shift to plenty of potatoes (and I HATE potatoes!) and wild herb teas (game and fish would stay the same, but we'd have to shoot an extra moose for the dogs).


Noooo, say it isn't sooooo, you mean you can't just get by with knife ferro rod and a tarp?....
Signed:
21 years old wants to get out of MOM basement....

Bet its a real female dog to call for a pizza......?

[Rick]

Pizza? No problem. Fresh pizza...now that's a different issue.

[wildWoman]

Noooo, say it isn't sooooo, you mean you can't just get by with knife ferro rod and a tarp?

But that's what I'm on the forum for :blink:

[Wildthang]

That would be nice, but I doubt it. We still have to earn an income here and for example, in May the paper I used to write for laid off half of its staff, including me. So there went 95% of my income and I haven't replaced it yet.
I think we and a lot of other bush people wouldn't feel much of a difference if there was a short-term economic or whatever crash, say things back to "normal" in about a year. But we and everyone I know out in the woods all use fuel, run chainsaws, generators, skidoos, motorboats, buy dog food, gum boots, building supplies, food items like coffee, flour, pasta etc. So while we have more stuff stocked than town people, once that runs out, we'd have to adjust, too.
Entirely possibly, but still quite a change because even more things would have to be done by hand than now and our food supply would shift to plenty of potatoes (and I HATE potatoes!) and wild herb teas (game and fish would stay the same, but we'd have to shoot an extra moose for the dogs).

Yeah you would feel the crunch, but people in big cities would have a much harder time than you. At least you can go out and get food, but in the city there are no moose!

[Rick]

but in the city there are no moose

Thank goodness. I have to dodge deer and coyote the way it is. I don't need to be dodgin' moose. Especially those amorous ones that don't want to give up ground.

[Ted]

I certainly didn't mean to offend you or the any of the forum members. I'm sorry you felt you had to defend the sight and how you manage it. I'm very impressed and even complimented on you guys on it during some past opinion wars.

When I read Wildthangs post I did get a little excited. He said how I felt perfectly. I hope a few litttle Ted's didn't get ran off. This is the best place for them.

[wildWoman]

At least you can go out and get food, but in the city there are no moose!

I hear rats can get pretty big, though :innocent: And there's lots of 'em.

[crashdive123]

I certainly didn't mean to offend you or the any of the forum members. I'm sorry you felt you had to defend the sight and how you manage it. I'm very impressed and even complimented on you guys on it during some past opinion wars.

When I read Wildthangs post I did get a little excited. He said how I felt perfectly. I hope a few litttle Ted's didn't get ran off. This is the best place for them.

You certainly didn't offend me - we were just having a conversation.

[Sarge47]

I certainly didn't mean to offend you or the any of the forum members. I'm sorry you felt you had to defend the sight and how you manage it. I'm very impressed and even complimented on you guys on it during some past opinion wars.

When I read Wildthangs post I did get a little excited. He said how I felt perfectly. I hope a few litttle Ted's didn't get ran off. This is the best place for them.

Why would I get offended for you speaking your opinion? Sometimes it helps to clear the air! :cool2:

(now let's see, where did I put that "ban" button?) :sneaky2: :innocent:

[Rick]

No blood, no foul, my friend. You or anyone else are welcome to express your opinion at any time. Adults should be able to discuss things or even disagree without hurt feelings and that's how I saw it.

[Bushman]

If I post something wrong then I expect to be called on it. You're actually doing me and everyone else a favor. I get to learn something, which I love to do, and everyone gets the benefit of correct info. I see that as a win/win.

when you STOP Learning it is technically defined as 'being D-E-A-D'.........

the older I get (and I'm over 60..) the lesser I KNOW...............

some of the **** I once 'knew-for-sure'...............waaaalllll , I 'ain't so sure no moah'.............. ;)

the old fellas told me this when I were a mere boy..........and its ONLY now I'm startin to figger they were RIGHT !! :)

[MiddleWolf]

If I've gotten off the beaten path then somebody give me a verbal "kick in the pants". I want to throw out so much advice but fight the urge. I've learned an unbelievable amount from these forums. I try to either just ad to a conversation or give advice when someone posts for it specifically. And then if it's something I actually do to a point that my advice is based on first hand experience and knowledge, not because I think I'm an "expert". That's the time for all to ignore me.

[old2531]

you all are great if a person cant accept critisism they dont belong in open forums im an old fogie too but im smart enough each of us has a skill we all could use so i sit back and learn ty everyone for openning my mind to many ideas