Safety in numbers-What organizations should I belong to?

[sofasurfer]

Even if a person has guns and ammo and lots of food, he still doesn't stand a chance on his own against the whole world and especially against a government that comes to take his guns and ship him off to a detention camp or whatever else they may do. All the guns in the world can not protect you from a government at your door.

The only way I see a chance for safety is if you belong to the government itself or to organizations that resist bad government. Such organizations may be anything from local neighborhood watches or county preparedness groups or state militias or national resistance groups or an alternative government.

My questions for you is what groups or organizations should we look to be affiliated with? How can I tell a fly-by-night group from a legitimate group for safety and freedom? What groups are out there right now that are active and growing and look to be a security blanket in the coming bad times?

[Geek]

I wouldn't worry about the government so much in a disaster situation. The government has demonstrated an inability to deal with internal disasters in an effective manner. Think Katrina. 9/11 gave us the TSA. Do you think that works? Right now the lights are out in DC.

[sofasurfer]

I don't agree. Right now we are dealing with minor annoyances. If we have a national economic collapse and people start acting like animals the government will not be your friend. Even today, in "Anywhere America", simply refusing to obey a cops order can get you killed. I want to belong.

[Rick]

No offense but what you're wanting is a pipe dream. Do you really want to be a part of an anti-government group? Let's assume for the sake of argument that an economic collapse does occur. How does that put the government at your door? Over the course of six previous depressions it hasn't happened. If economic collapse occurs then the government must downsize. That means they reduce the number of agents in ATF, FBI, etc. They are not going to be concerned about the number of guns in your house. They are going to be concerned about the folks printing crisp new $20 bills, selling bootlegged liquor, black market cigarettes, anti-government activities and other large scale operations. The fact you have a squirrel gun is going to be pretty low on their radar. There won't be agents to herd folks to some make believe FEMA camp, the money to feed and house them or the guards to watch over them. If you were an FBI agent and your boss came to you and said, "We don't have the money to pay you this week but go out and gather up those guns," what would your response be? Mine would be, "No money, no workey."

[intothenew]

Family

Friends

Community

Vote


Join in that order. There are many paths past those, but that should give you the navigation skills to pick the one best for you.

[BENESSE]

Right on the money, Intothenew!

[hunter63]

Family

Friends

Community

Vote


Join in that order. There are many paths past those, but that should give you the navigation skills to pick the one best for you.

Right on....Govments come and go, family last forever.........

[Geek]

If you're that concerned about government, then by all means join and try to make a positive difference. Personally, I think the more government tries to do, the less it does effectively. We just had an economic collapse and four years into it they aren't sure what to do. Since they can't keep the lights on in DC and they're trying to shut down coal fired power plants I find it hard to worry about them.

I'm not sure what causes you to be concerned about not obeying a cop. If he gives you a lawful order that's one thing. If he gives you an unlawful order you can just go silent on him. As for "people acting like animals", maybe you need to move?

[mwp]

Stock up, Pray up, and Shut up. shut up being be careful what you say to who. Become as self dependant as you can. Learn something, teach something. Learn to depend on yourself. Tighten your family up and maybe bring in a few close friends. Form your own network. mwp

[Celticwarrior]

I wouldn't worry about the government so much in a disaster situation. The government has demonstrated an inability to deal with internal disasters in an effective manner. Think Katrina. 9/11 gave us the TSA. Do you think that works? Right now the lights are out in DC.

Actually, that isn't really accurate. When Katrina hit and everything was in chaos, the government couldn't (wouldn't) help those in need for days, often WEEKS. But it took them only hours after the storm to start going around to homes, not to give aid, food or water, but to confiscate legally owned GUNS. It took YEARS for some of those owners to eventually get their property back.

"Some owners complained it was difficult to get them back. Gun owners must bring a bill of sale or an affidavit with the weapon's serial number. Police also are running criminal background checks on those claiming weapons.

Some gun owners found the weapons were evidence in a crime and not eligible for release. Others did not have the proper paperwork.
Percy Taplet, 73, said the National Guard and state police confiscated his shotgun when they arrived to tell him to leave his house. When he tried to get his gun back this week, police told him he would have to contact state police.
"I won't ever see that gun again, believe me," Taplet said. "It's gone like everything else in that storm."
Police Superintendent Warren Riley said police had legitimate reasons for confiscating weapons." -- Published April 19, 2006. Associated Press

Now, since then, and the NRA lawsuit to restore those stolen guns to their rightful owners, Congress has passed a law saying it is ILLEGAL to confiscate guns wholesale after a disaster. It does allow for the police to take unattended/abandoned guns, guns being used in a crime, or in any other way that they normally would take a weapon in the course of their duties. But they can't just come door to door like in N.O. and require you to give up your firearms.

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1159809369.shtml

I however do not believe that they wouldn't use an existing executive order to take them away if the disaster was large enough, or the government felt it was going to be targetted by those with weapons (insurrection, secession, etc.).

[Rick]

You are mixing apples and oranges.


the government couldn't (wouldn't) help those in need for days, often WEEKS. But it took them only hours after the storm to start going around to homes

It was the federal government that was unable to respond and local law enforcement and NG (controlled by the state) that confiscated weapons. Katrina hit on Aug. 29 and gun confiscation started on September 9, which is over a week later; not hours.

It was not an Executive Order than mandated gun confiscation but a single local city employee that made that decision.

I'm appalled that it occurred at all but let's keep the facts straight. There are many branches of government and a stupid decision by a single person shouldn't represent the condemnation of all. There were also a lot of LEO and NG that refused to participate in that order. You never seem to hear about them. There are a lot of 3 Percenters out there.

[Celticwarrior]

I never said it was an E.O. I said that in the future I would not trust that the congressional mandate against such confiscations would be honored in light of certain E.O.'s that are on the books. Also, the police began confiscations when they went door to door to tell people that they had to leave their homes. While the largest number of those happened in the week or so after the disaster struck, many were taken when the people wished to leave their homes and seek refuge in government shelters, and the guns were taken 'for security reasons'. Whether a decision is made by local, state or federal agents makes little difference. It is a government order, and as such is enforced with imprisonment, mace, billy clubs and guns. Whether that is a local constable or a federal soldier using that force matters little to the person on the receiving end. Certainly, some police, and some NG troops refused to go along with what was obviously an unconstitutional order, it doesn't HAVE to be every individual, just the one at your door. Nothing is to stop a LEO or other agent from acting now and asking forgiveness in the future, and that might be too late for someone who chooses to refuse to give up their weapons. While I respect law enforcement and the military as a whole, 3 percent is still 97 percent that WILL follow orders, however illegal and immoral they might be. One stupid local politician who wields enough authority is all it takes for bad things to happen. Would you want to be in Georgetown, or one of New York's boroughs or Chicago's suburbs when some large national disaster happened, or take your chances in any city in California when the SHTF and the locals figure this is their chance to do what they have always wanted to do? I wouldn't. While not every government is corrupt, nor every official evil or ignorant, when times of stress and chaos come along, the cream does not always rise to the top. Often, it is the very people we fear that take their opportunity and seize power that otherwise would be denied to them. For every Oath Keeper out there, there are a lot more folks who will do as they are told, worry more about their own careers and paychecks and less about the bigger question of whether some order or another is moral or right. I don't trust anyone unless they personally prove themselves trustworthy to me, and that makes for a very SMALL group of people. Everyone else is an unknown quantity and needs to be treated as such.

[sofasurfer]

Actually, that isn't really accurate. When Katrina hit and everything was in chaos, the government couldn't (wouldn't) help those in need for days, often WEEKS. But it took them only hours after the storm to start going around to homes, not to give aid, food or water, but to confiscate legally owned GUNS. It took YEARS for some of those owners to eventually get their property back.



Exactly. Federal or local, my point is that they may be the enemy. They prove evry day that they can not be trusted.


Do you really want to be a part of an anti-government group? Let's assume for the sake of argument that an economic collapse does occur. How does that put the government at your door? Over the course of six previous depressions it hasn't happened. If economic collapse occurs then the government must downsize. That means they reduce the number of agents in ATF, FBI, etc. They are not going to be concerned about the number of guns in your house. They are going to be concerned about the folks printing crisp new $20 bills, selling bootlegged liquor, black market cigarettes, anti-government activities and other large scale operations. The fact you have a squirrel gun is going to be pretty low on their radar. There won't be agents to herd folks to some make believe FEMA camp, the money to feed and house them or the guards to watch over them. If you were an FBI agent and your boss came to you and said, "We don't have the money to pay you this week but go out and gather up those guns," what would your response be? Mine would be, "No money, no workey."


I did not say I want to be part of an anti-gov group. I want to be part of a "save our freedoms and save our asses" group. Is that anti-government?

Too many people think that we're heading for a depression type of economic collapse. Well, you better keep hoping. The truth is that a simple economic collapse would be a walk in the park compared to whats coming.
Government searching for counterfeiters? There will be no money system. What do you think that the whole microchip hubbub is about?
The governments going to downsize? Very shortly the government is going to be financed by the new world order and if it stumbles the U.N. will come a knockin'.
Do you honestly think that the U.N campaign to prohibit all gun ownership, which our government supports, is just a silly little joke?
And as for you telling the gov "no money, no workey"...I guess you haven't kept up on your executive orders. With the stroke of a pen the government literally owns you.
O, thats right...executive orders are not real. They are just make them so we have something to talk about.
I sure hope we just have a depression.

[Rick]

I did not say I want to be part of an anti-gov group.


The only way I see a chance for safety is if you belong to the government itself or to organizations that resist the government.

Uh, yea, you did.

I can see folks aren't swayed by facts so I'll leave you to you fears. Good day.

[Celticwarrior]

I think the whole economic and social crisis in Europe right now pretty much shoots down the whole New World Order thing. The U.N. isn't able to make people do anything. They have a VERY small peacekeeping force, made up of citizens of member nations, and are pretty impotent when it comes to doing anything worthwhile. You should spend some time overseas in places like Somalia if you think the U.N. has any power or authority over anyone. They are a joke. I worry more about ultra conservatives or socialist liberals taking over the country and screwing me over than any fantasy Illuminati group or the Rothschilds. The Nazi party was a little group with very little social relevance or political clout when it started in post-WW1 Germany. Their radical views and heavy handed methods weren't even known until much later. What they preached to the people was that they would end unemployment, get the economy stabilized, restore family values and make the country great again. Sounds great (and familiar), until you read the fine print and see all the freedoms and individual rights you are going to give up for them to accomplish that. Never believe that all the political rhetoric you hear from candidates that SOUNDS like they have your back actually means they respect your rights and will do what you would want when they actually get the power to do so. Homegrown 'patriots' with a lot of power to do whatever they want, especially in a crisis, could be a lot more dangerous than some offshore mystery group with delusions of grandeur. Being informed (not by morons like InfoWars or PrisonPlanet or any other Alex Jones-like wackjob, but watching both sides of the political discussion and sifting out the truth for yourself from their propoganda) and keeping vigilant against losses of our freedoms and rights (like the abomination that is the Patriot Act) is the key to being ready if and when something does happen at a national level. To me, if something is going to happen, I would want it to be something like an EMP/Solar Flare capable of knocking out the entire national grid and electronics across the board. Level out the playing field and put us all back to square one. If you have to have a disaster, at least have one where the bad guys and the good guys are all in the same boat.

[Geek]

New Orleans screwed up big time and lost the court case as a result. Now a precedent has been set that an emergency is not a reason to confiscate guns wholesale. Everyone aware of the case is also smart enough to say "what guns?" or just not answer the door. If that is what you're worried about, then just buy a good safe. With a hurricane coming do you really think they have time to force open every safe in a major metropolitan area?

[Graf]

It makes since to begin with neighbors less chance of having to leave your property if you have surrounding support even in a rural area. Nieghbors will touch base with theirs freinds and family and soon a network has developed. This is not easy by anymeans but the payoff is huge.

[kyratshooter]

Even if a person has guns and ammo and lots of food, he still doesn't stand a chance on his own against the whole world and especially against a government that comes to take his guns and ship him off to a detention camp or whatever else they may do. All the guns in the world can not protect you from a government at your door.

The only way I see a chance for safety is if you belong to the government itself or to organizations that resist bad government. Such organizations may be anything from local neighborhood watches or county preparedness groups or state militias or national resistance groups or an alternative government.

My questions for you is what groups or organizations should we look to be affiliated with? How can I tell a fly-by-night group from a legitimate group for safety and freedom? What groups are out there right now that are active and growing and look to be a security blanket in the coming bad times?

Very skillful post.

Paragraph 1 hits both gun control and prepping as well as gun grabs and detention/re-education/genocide camps. Things that strike fear in most preppers and gets their tounges wagging instantly. There is also that hint at infiltration of the government and how many have done it. I like that one.

Paragraph 2 covers oppressive government and resistance groups from the basic neighborhood level on up. Instant agreement or disagreement with thought processes attached.

Paragraph 3 covers how to join/organize a resistance group/shadow government and where to find one.

And you want information desperately and right now!

Very well done!

If you look closely you will see that the members that are pouring their hearts out to you all have less than 100 posts to their credit. You have only 11. The old hands here are not commenting on the questions or topics directly. We will all tell you to obey the law and follow the normal conventions of society.

Radicalism is just not what we do here. We mostly deal with disaster prep and wilderness prep/skills. If there are radicals here they remain very quiet to glean the information they might find useful in the real world. I do not think any of us here would trade a badly run republic for a self imposed feudal system or a pure democracy run by idiots with no checks and balances.

[oldsoldier]

No offense but what you're wanting is a pipe dream. Do you really want to be a part of an anti-government group? Let's assume for the sake of argument that an economic collapse does occur. How does that put the government at your door? Over the course of six previous depressions it hasn't happened. If economic collapse occurs then the government must downsize. That means they reduce the number of agents in ATF, FBI, etc. They are not going to be concerned about the number of guns in your house. They are going to be concerned about the folks printing crisp new $20 bills, selling bootlegged liquor, black market cigarettes, anti-government activities and other large scale operations. The fact you have a squirrel gun is going to be pretty low on their radar. There won't be agents to herd folks to some make believe FEMA camp, the money to feed and house them or the guards to watch over them. If you were an FBI agent and your boss came to you and said, "We don't have the money to pay you this week but go out and gather up those guns," what would your response be? Mine would be, "No money, no workey."

I have to agree with Rick here. When things go south the last thing the "Goobermint" will worry about is trying to herd the population into detention camps. They don't have the places, resources, manpower to do so. Besides they'll be worried more about taking care of them selves and their families instead.

[Rick]

WE ARE ON RED ALERT!

FEMA Director: "Break out the FEMA camp!"
Blank stares from everyone.
FEMA Director: "Well, what are you waiting for?"
"Uh, where is it?"
FEMA Director: "The FEMA camp. Hello? The FEMA camp!"
More blank stares.
FEMA Director: "Oh, for cryin' out loud. Doesn't anyone know where it is?"
"We have some MREs in Michigan."
"And some cots in North Dakota. Those are cots aren't they, Jerry?"
FEMA Director: "I don't care! Where's the @#$#@@ FEMA camp?"
Man shuffling through papers: "Oh. Uh, sir. It's on the list to order but you didn't approve funding.....sir."
FEMA Director: "DOH!"

[Celticwarrior]

D'oh, eh? I think that comparing the director of FEMA to Homer Simpson is pretty insulting.....

to Homer Simpson's intelligence. :shifty:

[karatediver]

I would get to know your neighbors. After you get to know them encourage them to prepare. Also a good church family might be something nice to have, especially if there are lots of folks there like you with similar values and a prepping attitude. I would avoid like the plague any of the non state sactioned militia groups. They will get you put on lists that you may not want to be on. Some have folks that are down right scary with agendas that you may not like.

Most people blame the Federal government for the Katrina chaos but the Feds are severly limited in their responses during dissaster situations by law. There is a whole process that must be followed. Folks want immediate relief but do not realize the process is in place to protect local and state sovereinty and to put decision making at the local and state level where folks who are closest to the situation can make decisions. The Federal government acts more in a support role providing expertise and materials when the situation exceeds the abilities and resources of state and local authorities. The Federal government can do very little by law without a request from the governor of a state. For those who want to know how the government works and reacts to a dissaster situation I highly recommend taking some of the FEMA NIMS and ICS courses that you can take for free at their website. The bottom line is that Federal help will always be slow in coming and will only come when state and local resources are exceeded. And it will be days before that help arrives which is why we prepare in the first place. If transportation infrastructure is damaged it may take even longer. It takes time also to set up relief supplies, supply points, etc.

If you are wanting to get involved to help in your area or state should a dissaster strike I would look at your local office of emergency services, CERT teams, police volunteers, RACES/ARES team, volunteer fire department, etc. or legally authorized state defense force. Also Non Government Organizations (NGOs) such as the Salvation Army, Red Cross, Catholic Charities, etc. also need people willing to help out. There are dozens of NGOs who provide support to government during emergencies.

[Wildthang]

Awwwwww darnit, now where did I put my tin foil hat this time:smartass:

[Batch]

You can't rely on governments or law enforcement to help you or even not impede you in helping yourself. Even if every agency on the planet said that it was unlawful to take weapons. A mayor like Nagin will still make a declaration and if his chief of police supports the unlawful order what the actual law says will not matter.

It was unlawful for them to take them during Katrina. So clearifying doesn't change anything.

Actually, I guess I could have stopped at, "You can't rely on governments or law enforcement".